Remake of Jin Mori Dan HDE Removal (Part 1 of ???? HDE Removals)

[Arnoldstone18]

This already disproves he has HDE, because he has higher dimensionality via qualitive superiority and not via an extra spatial axis.

I think BDE type 2 is a better alternative.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm not sure. I'm mostly focused on this claim that Mori has an extra spatial dimension that appears to have come from thin air.

Thats fair but you’ve made your stance very clear. I’m surprised you went on this long. But BDE type 2 would make more sense imo because it already counts towards qualitative superiority. Just wanted to know if you think so too, but just have it at the back of your mind. I’ll probably have to make a crt too considering the OP views constructive arguments as derailing.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think BDE type 2 is a better alternative.

You can try to make the CRT thread and try to see it goes through then.

 

[Xinsignia1]

Not in the way you're describing with Mori, but there's nothing indicating Nirvana has an extra dimensional axis either way.

Existing in multiple dimensions is literally an aspect of a higher dimensional being, that is most certainly indicative of an extra dimensional axis.

This isn't indicative of an additional spatial axis. That what you keep failing to understand. Your continued exasperation that these two things are not connected is getting old. There's no inherent relationship between those two concepts.

But why is it necessary to remove the spatial aspect to something that was referred to as a higher dimension? Even on the higher dimensional existence page it states "when" something is called higher- dimensional, the context needs to be interpreted. Xuanzang was in nirvana, and her presence caused Satan to realize she was from a higher dimension.

The first sentence on this portion of the higher dimensional existence page doesn't even apply since it was specifically called a "higher dimension" and not a "higher plane" or "higher existence" and this was the conclusion Satan made after sensing Xuanzang. The page says if something is called higher-dimensional, the context needs to be interpreted if whether the comment was made figuratively or not, what about Satan's statement suggest his statement was figurative and not literal? Especially after sensing Xuanzang's presence?

The rebuttal is "you've repeatedly failed to provide any evidence of higher spatial dimensions."

Your theory that this whole situation is facilitated by an additional spatial axis needs to be proven. I don't need to prove an alternative lest your theory be accepted by default, that's now how a burden of proof works. You don't have the evidence you need.


Yes, dimensions as in realms, not coordinate axes.

Do you think that Satan's comment about the dimensionality is figurative? because if you don't then it shouldn't be an issue. Considering that earlier you stated that perhaps the plane was only higher spiritually, suggest that it that you didn't think it was figurative.

 

[Xinsignia1]

This already disproves he has HDE, because he has higher dimensionality via qualitive superiority and not via an extra spatial axis.

I said "in the mathematical sense" which means it's relation into the quantity of spatial axes.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I said "in the mathematical sense" which means it's relation into the quantity of spatial axes.

So show the proof that he takes up space in more than 3 dimensions.

Existing in multiple dimensions is literally an aspect of a higher dimensional being,

A 3D being can exist normally in 4D, 5D, and any higher D space. You don't have to be higher D to fit inside higher D space.

 

[Deagonx]

Existing in multiple dimensions is literally an aspect of a higher dimensional being, that is most certainly indicative of an extra dimensional axis.

No, it quite literally isn't. Where did you get that idea? It's objectively false.

But why is it necessary to remove the spatial aspect to something that was referred to as a higher dimension?

No one is "removing" it, we've just seen no evidence of it having a spatial aspect at all.

The page says if something is called higher-dimensional, the context needs to be interpreted if whether the comment was made figuratively or not, what about Satan's statement suggest his statement was figurative and not literal? Especially after sensing Xuanzang's presence?

There's nothing to suggest his statement is referring to specifically a spatial dimension rather than using the word dimension in the "realm" sense, which is equally likely.

 

[Xinsignia1]

No, it quite literally isn't. Where did you get that idea? It's objectively false.

Literally from Abbott's book flatland, which is we see the sphere has an intersection that occupies the 2D plane, and body that occupies 3 dimensional space. That entire book was published in 1884 to demonstrate dimensional space In the novel, hexagon a 2D dimensional being interacts with the cross section of sphere a 3D dimensional being. Sphere resides in 3 dimensional space, but he can descent to 2 dimensional space to interact with the 2d dimensional beings. When he's in the 2dimensional space, he is also simultaneously existed in the 3 dimensional space.

No one is "removing" it, we've just seen no evidence of it having a spatial aspect at all.

Suggesting it doesn't have a spatial axis would mean that the statement itself was only figurative per the current standards on the site, what grounds causes this to be figurative? Because you're not saying it's figurative, you're just saying to remove the spatial part, and only keep the realm part which does not hold up, you realize realms are also spaces? It's arbitrary to remove part of a words meaning "just cause"

There's nothing to suggest his statement is referring to specifically a spatial dimension rather than using the word dimension in the "realm" sense, which is equally likely.

Why do you insist he just means realm? You do realize that realms also have dimensionality? 4 dimensional beings can exist in a 4 dimensional realm without interacting with the lower dimension. That's one of the premises of flatland which is based on this exact matter. Hexagon wasn't aware of Sphere until he descended into the 2D plane. This subject of this novel is euclidean space. You're saying that we should arbitrarily remove the spatial aspect of dimensionality and only keep the realm which is also spatial? Why should your interpretation override the authors? In another scenario, If it was stated that Mori acquired another spatial axis, would you then ask if it was in reference to dimensions then? What about the high-dimensional statement screams figurative? Why are you assuming he was only talking about "realm" because you've yet to state that you thought it was figurative. As I stated earlier you're just saying to remove the spatial part, which is odd considering he existed in those two spaces simultaneously, just like in the example I shared earlier. Mori existing in a higher dimensional space while also existing in the lower dimensional space doesn't make that statement seem figurative considering we literally have an historical example of the phenomena from 139 years ago.

So show the proof that he takes up space in more than 3 dimensions.

Mori simultaneously existed in nirvana which is called a higher dimension while also existing in the lower dimension. The number of dimensions you occupy determines your dimensionality.

A 3D being can exist normally in 4D, 5D, and any higher D space. You don't have to be higher D to fit inside higher D space.

Except Mori is clearly existing outside of a the universe which is a 4D structure, considering the realm beyond nirvana encompasses it points in time.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@LordGriffin1000 Would you say you agree, disagree, or are neutral to this thread? I wanna remove any and all confusion

I don't really speak on higher dimensional stuff anymore due to how our standards are. My previous comments where to explain that I lack the knowledge on the verse but I was leaning in favor of the OP (sorry that wasn't made clear)

But since I was asked by you and Pein to give my thoughts again, I will.

I disagree

I'm pretty sure Mori fulfills the higher-dimensional requirement given that he has already demonstrates qualitative superiority in the mathematical sense too. Interactions between a high dimension being & lower dimensional being, pretty much suggest that a lower dimensional being can only perceive the cross section of a higher-dimensional being. This means that they can only interacts with the portion of that being that intersects the lower plane, like how a cube looks like a square to a 2 dimensional being since they can’t see the whole thing and so on.

We already have qualitative superiority, and the way Mori interacts with lower-dimensional beings does suggest, and imply higher-dimensional existence since we have further context that supports it. By the end of the series it’s made pretty clear that Mori’s true form simply doesn’t exist in the lower dimension, because for one his essence can exist it various spaces, at different times simultaneously. That's why avatars that can be projected into the lower dimension in any space, at any time are used to interact with lower-dimensional beings. Also it is literally impossible for lower-dimensional beings to exist in the realm beyond Nirvana, since it' was specifically stated only those that can achieve Nirvana end up there meaning this existence, this "place" must be achieved, it's not something that's bestowed upon you for good behavior, or pity.

Mori’s true form should be infinitely larger than the the space-time his avatar occupies, since Mubong realized that he was incapable of destroying Mori's true body. It does not exist in the lower dimension. When Mori is interacting with lower-dimensional beings, he doesn't “make himself smaller" or "reduce the dimensionality of his true body" he projects avatars that can interact with lower dimensional beings at any given point in time, while his true form NEVER manifest in the lower realm, same for Xuanzang who’s another being that achieved nirvana, she projects avatars across various points in time as well. Mori using "pieces" of himself to interact with lower-dimensional beings seems very similar to how lower dimensional beings can only interact with the cross sections or "a piece" of higher dimensional beings. In fact, Satan mistook Mori for a higher-dimensional being, when in fact it was Xuangzang who was secretly protecting Mori.

Mori simultaneously existed in:

1)The present with Ahan and baby Taejin,

2)The past when he projected his avatar and affected it (a paradox)

3) In a different dimension, aka Nirvana with Xuanzang

All three of the scans above happened simultaneously, pieces of Mori are existing at multiple points in time & space while his true body remains in Nirvana. The way EoS Mori interacts with lower dimensional beings seems very similar lower dimensional being can only perceive pieces or "cross sections" of the higher dimensional beings.

I assume this is the argument everyone is leaning on mostly so I'll just say this...

I can agree that Mori achieving a higher state can imply him being a higher dimensional being as the place he in requires ascending. And while I've seen the argument about it being a form thing and understand that but my interpretation given what's provided in this comment leads me to believe it's more in line with the former. However! The argument about his true form being infinitely larger than the space-time stuff aren't convincing in my honest opinion.

So if you wanted my opinion I'm neutral and could 100% agree with a possible Higher Dimensional Existence but that's it. If that's not what y'all wanted to hear then I don't know what else to say. I have more pressing matters in real life and there isn't more I can add. I'll leave the rest up to you guys and if there reaches no conclusion and no one wants to compromise and my vote is required to help move the thread along then you can put me down for agreement with the OP but that's only if it's required, my main stance is neutral.

Now if you all will excuse me, I have a few other things to deal with on the forum before I go deal with real life stuff.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't really speak on higher dimensional stuff anymore due to how our standards are. My previous comments where to explain that I lack the knowledge on the verse but I was leaning in favor of the OP (sorry that wasn't made clear)

But since I was asked by you and Pein to give my thoughts again, I will.

I assume this is the argument everyone is leaning on mostly so I'll just say this...

I can agree that Mori achieving a higher state can imply him being a higher dimensional being as the place he in requires ascending. And while I've seen the argument about it being a form thing and understand that but my interpretation given what's provided in this comment leads me to believe it's more in line with the former. However! The argument about his true form being infinitely larger than the space-time stuff aren't convincing in my honest opinion.

So if you wanted my opinion I'm neutral and could 100% agree with a possible Higher Dimensional Existence but that's it. If that's not what y'all wanted to hear then I don't know what else to say. I have more pressing matters in real life and there isn't more I can add. I'll leave the rest up to you guys and if there reaches no conclusion and no one wants to compromise and my vote is required to help move the thread along then you can put me down for agreement with the OP but that's only if it's required, my main stance is neutral.

Now if you all will excuse me, I have a few other things to deal with on the forum before I go deal with real life stuff.

Deal with IRL stuff first

 

[PrinceofPein]

I do not want to quote Griffin so as to not tag him again, but sorry for disturbing you through this, your vote is required to move the thread along, so I will go with your wishes.

Edit: I will keep the thread open for some times more, in case anyone wants to say anything that is not already said, emphasis on "not already said"

 

[GarrixianXD]

I do not want to quote Griffin so as to not tag him again, but sorry for disturbing you through this, your vote is required to move the thread along, so I will go with your wishes.

Edit: I will keep the thread open for some times more, in case anyone wants to say anything that is not already said, emphasis on "not already said"

Create an user blog, they've advised not to link any forum links

 

[CloverDragon03]

So we got 2 staff agrees, 1 staff neutral, and 1 staff disagree atm

 

[PrinceofPein]

Create an user blog, they've advised not to link any forum links

I do not understand
Edit: you mean I should not link this thread when applying the revision?

 

[GarrixianXD]

I do not understand
Edit: you mean I should not link this thread when applying the revision?

Nvm, it's not going to be on the powers and abilities section so you could link it

Yeah, my bad and forget what I said

 

[Deagonx]

Mori simultaneously existed in nirvana which is called a higher dimension while also existing in the lower dimension. The number of dimensions you occupy determines your dimensionality.

There's no evidence the higher dimension was spatial. Until you find some, you're just making an unproven assumption to give Mori an ability he shouldn't have.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Mori simultaneously existed in nirvana which is called a higher dimension while also existing in the lower dimension. The number of dimensions you occupy determines your dimensionality.

You would have to prove that Mori existed as a cross section in the lower dimension, while existed fully in the higher dimension.

Also the number of dimensions you occupy doesn't determine your dimensionality. As theoretically, a 2D object can exist just fine in 3D space.

Except Mori is clearly existing outside of a the universe which is a 4D structure, considering the realm beyond nirvana encompasses it points in time.

Being able to exist outside the universe isn't evidence that he has hypervolume.

 

[Xinsignia1]

There's no evidence the higher dimension was spatial. Until you find some, you're just making an unproven assumption to give Mori an ability he shouldn't have.

I've presented a plethora of evidence, and you've yet to say that the mention of the realm beyond nirvana being a higher dimension is figurative, which is the grounds that would rule Mori's high-dimensional existence as lull I'm going to be very clear, the higher existence dimension page clearly states that if the statement is not figurative per context, it should apply.

The realm beyond nirvana has possesses core qualities that suggest it's spatially extruded orthogonally from the 3rd dimension. Spacetime is 4 dimensional and has 4 coordinates (x,y,z, and t) since it's considerer a pseudo Euclidean space which is what a 4D manifold is. 4 dimensional space also has 4 coordinates (x,y,z, and w) what's important is the the 4th coordinate is orthogonal to the other coordinates, that is core feature of a dimensional axis, it extrude in a direction orthogonal to the other coordinates. In physics when it comes to representing the universe with time, there does not exist a single accurate representation of 4 dimensional space because it is literally impossible since we cannot recreate that dimensionality. Therefore, contemporary models of the universe always compress 3 dimensional space to a 2D plane, and the time vector runs perpendicular to the compressed frames like a movie strip, a pseudo 3 dimensional volume is created from several slices of space like a film strip. That's how we illustrate axis that run perpendicular to space. Regardless the 4th dimension always runs perpendicular to 3 dimensional space. Our current physics model depicts the universal as a plane that time time flows perpendicularly from in fact several diagrams depict the same general morphology of time flowing perpendicular to the 3 dimensional spatial plane and these "compressed"

Again, Lorenztian space, which is pseudo Euclidean space was derived from Euclidean space. It has a vector orthogonal to 3 dimensional space and our current model for 4 dimensional Euclidean space also possess a vector that runs orthogonal to 3 dimensional space that's what makes it for dimensional.

Why does this matter? Mori in the realm beyond Nirvana was surrounded by slices of space that were arranged perpendicular to one another, just like how the flow of time is depicted in current models. The 4th dimension requires you to move perpendicular to the 3 dimensional plane in some form or fashion

In fact many scientist postulate that wormholes are projections from four spatial dimensions and that makes sense do you know why? As the graphic below indicates wormholes are projections that run perpendicular to 3 dimensional space so it's has constitution in the 4th dimensional axis.

Look at the wormhole graphic. The structure that connect two separate spatial planes is a 4 dimensional construct. The cross section of the wormhole, exist in the 3 dimensional spatial plane that is denoted as flat in this diagram, while the full structure exist in the 4 dimensional axis. A single structure that connects two separate spaces whether it temporal or not is 4 dimensional by definition because you extruding beyond the 3 dimensional plane, because the end of the day a 4 dimensional spatial structure is required. Again, wormholes are structures that have four spatial dimensions that is exactly what Mori did in the realm beyond nirvana, he existed in the past and present in which again requires a 4D structure.

And i'll be frank, since this i'm sure this question will come up. Moving through a 4D structures/space does not made you 4D, basic time travelers are not 4D they are not 4D structures, but having the physiology to extend perpendicular through a 4 dimensional plane while existing in the a 3 dimensional makes you 4D (that is exactly what wormholes do). A sphere that intersects a 2 dimensional plane takes up space in 1st,2nd,3rd dimensions, a hypersphere which is four dimensional sphere would it exist in the 1st,2nd, 3rd,and 4rth dimensions. Mori while in the realm beyond nirvana existed beyond the 1st, 2nd,3rd and fourth dimension simultaneously which is different than a regular time traveler who cannot manipulate their body to extend in that direction.

And i'll reiterate per our wiki standards, if a space is called higher dimension, whether it is valid or not depends if the statement was figurative. if the statement was not figurative it's valid. Simultaneously existing in multiple spaces with the same body requires a 4 dimensional structure. Mori existed in two separate spaces that were temporally isolated simultaneously with one body, he was with Ahan and baby Taejin on Geodowuun and he was in the realm beyond nirvana. Even if I somehow entertain your idea about the realm beyond Nirana being 3 dimensional, Mori existing in two temporally separate spaces simultaneously requires a 4D structure become wormholes work on that exact same principle, it applies to both time-travel and spatial travel. The realm beyond Nirvana was called a higher dimension and Mori has displayed 4D structural qualities, occam's razor dictates it is a 4-dimensianal structure if you cannot provide an alternative reason.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I honestly don’t know why a possible rating isn’t plausible

 

[Deagonx]

I've presented a plethora of evidence, and you've yet to say that the mention of the realm beyond nirvana being a higher dimension is figurative, which is the grounds that would rule Mori's high-dimensional existence as lull I'm going to be very clear, the higher existence dimension page clearly states that if the statement is not figurative per context, it should apply.

You're misunderstanding the meaning of that criteria. I'm not denying Nirvana is a higher dimension, but it needs to be spatial in nature, which requires specific evidence that hasn't been provided at all.

The realm beyond nirvana has possesses core qualities that suggest it's spatially extruded orthogonally from the 3rd dimension. Spacetime is 4 dimensional and has 4 coordinates (x,y,z, and t) since it's considerer a pseudo Euclidean space which is what a 4D manifold is. 4 dimensional space also has 4 coordinates (x,y,z, and w) what's important is the the 4th coordinate is orthogonal to the other coordinates, that is core feature of a dimensional axis, it extrude in a direction orthogonal to the other coordinates. In physics when it comes to representing the universe with time, there does not exist a single accurate representation of 4 dimensional space because it is literally impossible since we cannot recreate that dimensionality. Therefore, contemporary models of the universe always compress 3 dimensional space to a 2D plane, and the time vector runs perpendicular to the compressed frames like a movie strip, a pseudo 3 dimensional volume is created from several slices of space like a film strip. That's how we illustrate axis that run perpendicular to space. Regardless the 4th dimension always runs perpendicular to 3 dimensional space. Our current physics model depicts the universal as a plane that time time flows perpendicularly from in fact several diagrams depict the same general morphology of time flowing perpendicular to the 3 dimensional spatial plane and these "compressed"

Again, Lorenztian space, which is pseudo Euclidean space was derived from Euclidean space. It has a vector orthogonal to 3 dimensional space and our current model for 4 dimensional Euclidean space also possess a vector that runs orthogonal to 3 dimensional space that's what makes it for dimensional.

Why does this matter? Mori in the realm beyond Nirvana was surrounded by slices of space that were arranged perpendicular to one another, just like how the flow of time is depicted in current models. The 4th dimension requires you to move perpendicular to the 3 dimensional plane in some form or fashion

In fact many scientist postulate that wormholes are projections from four spatial dimensions and that makes sense do you know why? As the graphic below indicates wormholes are projections that run perpendicular to 3 dimensional space so it's has constitution in the 4th dimensional axis.

Look at the wormhole graphic. The structure that connect two separate spatial planes is a 4 dimensional construct. The cross section of the wormhole, exist in the 3 dimensional spatial plane that is denoted as flat in this diagram, while the full structure exist in the 4 dimensional axis. A single structure that connects two separate spaces whether it temporal or not is 4 dimensional by definition because you extruding beyond the 3 dimensional plane, because the end of the day a 4 dimensional spatial structure is required. Again, wormholes are structures that have four spatial dimensions that is exactly what Mori did in the realm beyond nirvana, he existed in the past and present in which again requires a 4D structure.

And i'll be frank, since this i'm sure this question will come up. Moving through a 4D structures/space does not made you 4D, basic time travelers are not 4D they are not 4D structures, but having the physiology to extend perpendicular through a 4 dimensional plane while existing in the a 3 dimensional makes you 4D (that is exactly what wormholes do). A sphere that intersects a 2 dimensional plane takes up space in 1st,2nd,3rd dimensions, a hypersphere which is four dimensional sphere would it exist in the 1st,2nd, 3rd,and 4rth dimensions. Mori while in the realm beyond nirvana existed beyond the 1st, 2nd,3rd and fourth dimension simultaneously which is different than a regular time traveler who cannot manipulate their body to extend in that direction.

And i'll reiterate per our wiki standards, if a space is called higher dimension, whether it is valid or not depends if the statement was figurative. if the statement was not figurative it's valid. Simultaneously existing in multiple spaces with the same body requires a 4 dimensional structure. Mori existed in two separate spaces that were temporally isolated simultaneously with one body, he was with Ahan and baby Taejin on Geodowuun and he was in the realm beyond nirvana. Even if I somehow entertain your idea about the realm beyond Nirana being 3 dimensional, Mori existing in two temporally separate spaces simultaneously requires a 4D structure become wormholes work on that exact same principle, it applies to both time-travel and spatial travel. The realm beyond Nirvana was called a higher dimension and Mori has displayed 4D structural qualities,

That is quite a lot of words for "there is no actual scan in this entire verse that describes Nirvana as having increased spatiality."

occam's razor dictates it is a 4-dimensianal structure if you cannot provide an alternative reason.

I do not need to provide an alternative reason. I am just pointing out the clear lack of evidence for your theory.

I honestly don’t know why a possible rating isn’t plausible

Because all of the evidence suggests Nirvana is a spiritual plane of existence, and that is the meaning of "higher dimension." There's nothing suggesting it's a spatial dimension at all. This notion appears to have been conjured from thin air and bad physics.

 

[Xinsignia1]

You would have to prove that Mori existed as a cross section in the lower dimension, while existed fully in the higher dimension.

Also the number of dimensions you occupy doesn't determine your dimensionality. As theoretically, a 2D object can exist just fine in 3D space.


Being able to exist outside the universe isn't evidence that he has hypervolume.

Mori existed in two temporally separate spaces simultaneously, which requires a 4D structure. Wormholes work off of the same principle, like I said in the post above, many scientist postulate that wormholes are projections from four spatial dimensions

Obviously 2D structures can exist in 4dimensional space and so on, but moving through 4 dimensional space is an entirely different matter, since it requires a 4dimensional structure. Existing outside of the universe requires you extend perpendicular to the spatial dimension.

 

[Deagonx]

Mori existed in two temporally separate spaces simultaneously, which requires a 4D structure.

No, it does not. Magic can also fairly easily accomplish that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, it does not. Magic can also fairly easily accomplish that.

Prove that Mori uses magic to do so.

 

[Xinsignia1]

You're misunderstanding the meaning of that criteria. I'm not denying Nirvana is a higher dimension, but it needs to be spatial in nature, which requires specific evidence that hasn't been provided at all.

I'm not misinterpreting anything, the criteria says it if isn't figurative, it should work it doesn't get much more clearer than that.

That is quite a lot of words for "there is no actual scan in this entire verse that describes Nirvana as having increased spatiality."

"quite a lot of words" sure, I even gave examples of how wormholes follow the same logic and your response to that is just "I didn't see that"? seriously?

I do not need to provide an alternative reason. I am just pointing out the clear lack of evidence for your theory.

What lack of evidence? did Mori not exist in two temporally separate aspects or not?

Because all of the evidence suggests Nirvana is a spiritual plane of existence, and that is the meaning of "higher dimension." There's nothing suggesting it's a spatial dimension at all. This notion appears to have been conjured from thin air and bad physics.

You keep saying it's was "just a spiritually higher plane" yet Mori was able to access it without becoming a spirit, he literally existed in the realm beyond Nirvana, and in the lower dimension without becoming a spirit. This directly refutes your claim to it only being a spiritually higher realm. You're projecting what you think it should be rather than listening to author which doesn't fly.

No, it does not. Magic can also fairly easily accomplish that.

Prove Mori was using magic then, because you're the one pulling things out of thin air now.

 

[Deagonx]

Prove that Mori uses magic to do so.

Not how burden of proof works. The existence of a viable alternative alone means that we cannot assume increased spatiality is responsible. I don't need to prove the alternative lest spatiality win "by default." You must actually have evidence that spatiality is responsible to eliminate the alternatives completely.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not misinterpreting anything, the criteria says it if isn't figurative, it should work it doesn't get much more clearer than that.

You are, because you're fixating on a single vague word in the criteria in order to ignore the purpose of what it is saying. Stop thinking solely about the word "figurative" and actually read what the page is trying to say. Nirvana doesn't have any scans or statements indicating that it has higher spatial dimensions.

You keep saying it's was "just a spiritually higher plane" yet Mori was able to access it without becoming a spirit, he literally existed in the realm beyond Nirvana, and in the lower dimension without becoming a spirit.

People go to higher spiritual realms without becoming spirits all the time in fiction.

Prove Mori was using magic then, because you're the one pulling things out of thin air now.

I do not need to do that. You need to prove it was due to increased spatiality with evidence from the text. You haven't done so, there appears to be no evidence whatsoever.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Not how burden of proof works. The existence of a viable alternative alone means that we cannot assume increased spatiality is responsible. I don't need to prove the alternative lest spatiality win "by default." You must actually have evidence that spatiality is responsible to eliminate the alternatives completely.

The alternatives take more assumptions. Occam's razor says we go for the path with the least assumptions, especially since Mori's profile, in all the 14 mentions of magic, never mentions him using it to get around anywhere. I don't care about the overall argument, but if you're gonna present what if scenarios that require more assumptions, then yes, burden of proof does work like that.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, not how that works. You need evidence of spatiality, you can't play word games about assumptions and obtain an ability the verse never gives you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't care about the overall argument

I don't give a damn what Mori Dan does or does not have, I haven't read a chapter of or watched the anime of God of Highschool in my life, but that doesn't mean I can't call out obvious throwing out of Occam's razor. The less assumptions made the better, that is Occam's razor in a nutshell, in fact, many things on this wiki function off of the less Assumptions the better.

 

[Deagonx]

Occams razor is a heuristic, not a law of logic. If you have no evidence, then that's it. Saying "well technically this interpretation involves less assumptions, therefore I win!"

That's nonsensical, and given the convoluted nature of this argument for increased spatiality, I don't even agree at all that "magic" is the more complicated option.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Mori existed in two temporally separate spaces simultaneously, which requires a 4D structure.

Not necessarily. It could just be a bilocation ability.

Your claim that this character is being stretched across 4D space to exist in two separated places at the same, time needs to be proven, at least show that.

Wormholes work off of the same principle, like I said in the post above, many scientist postulate that wormholes are projections from four spatial dimensions

Worm holes connect two places. You can argue that Jin is connecting two places so he can exist in them simultaneously. He doesn't need to be 4D for that happen.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Occams razor is a heuristic, not a law of logic. If you have no evidence, then that's it. Saying "well technically this interpretation involves less assumptions, therefore I win!"

That's nonsensical, and given the convoluted nature of this argument for increased spatiality, I don't even agree at all that "magic" is the more complicated option.

Let me put this into terms you'll understand loud and clear.

Again, not how that works. You need evidence of spatiality, you can't play word games about assumptions and obtain an ability the verse never gives you.

This post says that you can't obtain an Ability the verse never gives you, rock-solid on its own.

No, it does not. Magic can also fairly easily accomplish that.

...you see my problem here right?

In case you don't see my problem, this is giving Mori Dan an Ability the verse doesn't give him. "Well it's magic!" Only works if the series tells you in some way that it's magic or probably magic. And that's what I want, you to, instead of giving Mori abilities the series doesn't give him like you're accusing your opponent of doing, to show some proof that your interpretation of "its magic" is correct.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The mental gymnastics here is starting to frustrate me.
From the bad physics to crazy interpretations.
Anyway to be 4D, you need to exist in all points in time and all points in space, yes you need to exist in uncountable infinite places and across uncountable infinite points in time for each of those points.
Not existing in two places at once, there is large difference.
Also Mori was existing in those places through his avatar, like this is simple, we do not need to jump through hoops and fire to arrive at unreasonable conclusions.
Like how does existing in 2 places at once even mean 4D to begin with? Like where and how?
I will get this applied now, this thread can be closed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Anyway to be 4D, you need to exist in all points in time and all points in space, yes you need to exist in uncountable infinite places and across uncountable infinite points in time for each of those points.

That's not true at all. Unless you mean 3D + time?

 

[Deagonx]

In case you don't see my problem, this is giving Mori Dan an Ability the verse doesn't give him. "Well it's magic!"

I'm not suggesting we add an ability for Mori. I am pointing out the possibility of other options, which means that we cannot accept spatiality by default, so HDE should be removed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I will get this applied now, this thread can be closed.

Don't try to rush this. You don't even have 3 staff approvals anyway

 

[PrinceofPein]

That's not true at all. Unless you mean 3D + time?

It is true. Read what I wrote and tell me what 3D plus time is.

Don't try to rush this. You don't even have 3 staff approvals anyway

I do, Lordgriffin said if his vote is the one holding up the thread, he should be put as agree and that is what I will do.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm not suggesting we add an ability for Mori. I am pointing out the possibility of other options, which means that we cannot accept spatiality by default, so HDE should be removed.

I mean, if the other options don't have shit supporting them are they really other options? In this case it's whether other staff agree with you or your opposition. Currently there's one other staff besides you in each category, so we need another evaluation staff to agree

I do, Lordgriffin said if his vote is the one holding up the thread, he should be put as agree and that is what I will do.

It's not though, there's an active debate happening, you're rushing.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It is true. Read what I wrote and tell me what 3D plus time is.

If you're referring to this:

Anyway to be 4D, you need to exist in all points in time and all points in space, yes you need to exist in uncountable infinite places and across uncountable infinite points in time for each of those points.

It's not true. Which is why I am asking if you meant being 4D in the sense of existing as an entire spacetime?

 

[Xinsignia1]

You are, because you're fixating on a single vague word in the criteria in order to ignore the purpose of what it is saying. Stop thinking solely about the word "figurative" and actually read what the page is trying to say. Nirvana doesn't have any scans or statements indicating that it has higher spatial dimensions.

it was called a high dimension, you have no grounds to assume it wasn't spatial especially when it behaves different than than the lower dimensions.

People go to higher spiritual realms without becoming spirits all the time in fiction.

It was called a "higher dimension", not "higher realm" why do you keep trying to change the words?

I do not need to do that. You need to prove it was due to increased spatiality with evidence from the text. You haven't done so, there appears to be no evidence whatsoever.

um, nah, the burden of proof most certainly rest on you, and why would it even matter if it was magic? in Black Clover Finral creates spatial porters in black clover with magic, that doesn't mean it's not a spatial portal, it connects two separate points of space. Anywho, simultaneously existing in temporally separate spaces is an example of increased spatiality, since wormholes work off of the same principal.

In fact, this scan makes much more sense now. And yes i'm bringing this up again since the context warrants, but around 190 chapters ago or so, it was stated the different realms are separate and have their own space-times because of this they require special mean of travel. portals are requires to go trough the separate realms, and as I stated earlier "einstein rosen bridges" aka "wormholes" are are constructs that work in four spatial dimensions by our current physics standards hence why a 4D gate was needed to move between realms hence why it was stated the gate used 4D logic so again where is this "magic" coming from?

Wormholes are higher dimensional constructs, and the realm beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension, what isn't clicking?

Not necessarily. It could just be a bilocation ability.

It's a product of him being a high dimensional being. Even if you want to claim its multi-location, our current wiki standards say for to qualify for multilocation, "it would still require the structure of the being to be spread through space and time in some fashion which still suggest a higher dimensionality. Multi-location is the product of worm hole, it exist in two separate spaces. " that is a feature of 4 dimensional structure

Your claim that this character is being stretched across 4D space to exist in two separated places at the same, time needs to be proven, at least show that.

The multilocation you suggested for Mori implies just that

Worm holes connect two places. You can argue that Jin is connecting two places so he can exist in them simultaneously. He doesn't need to be 4D for that happen.

worm hole connects two spaces through a 4dimensional structure. The fact that Mori's physiology is connecting two separate spaces it's being connected to a 4D structure. Something that can extrude in the 4th dimension must make the connection, and that's Mori's body. He's not even a spirit yet, that is a 4D structure.

The mental gymnastics here is starting to frustrate me.
From the bad physics to crazy interpretations.
Anyway to be 4D, you need to exist in all points in time and all points in space, yes you need to exist in uncountable infinite places and across uncountable infinite points in time for each of those points.

Objectively wrong, you do realize wormholes only exist by connecting two spatial points through a 4d spatial structure? it doesn't need to be spread out all over space and time.

Not existing in two places at once, there is large difference.

Also Mori was existing in those places through his avatar, like this is simple, we do not need to jump through hoops and fire to arrive at unreasonable conclusions.
Like how does existing in 2 places at once even mean 4D to begin with? Like where and how?
I will get this applied now, this thread can be closed.

Um nah....Mori existed in two temporally separate spaces, he was with Ahan, and baby Taejin on Geodowuun, and in the realm beyond nirvana before even touching the tablets. Mori projecting happened AFTER he was simultaneously existing in separate places that are temporally separate, Mori projecting his avatar into another point in the past was something additional he did ontop of already existing in two places, so you can stop insisting that his simultaneous existence was due to the tablets.