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Remake of Jin Mori Dan HDE Removal (Part 1 of ???? HDE Removals)

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Proposals made in threads can often shift. It’s not derailing if it’s about the same subject matter (in this case, the nature of Mori’s existence in his God of Prophecy key)
 
Xinsignia1 said:
The realm Nirvana is a higher dimensional place that non-ascended people can't move through. This a restriction caused by their own limitations which is a product of their own physiology no?
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Sure.

Xinsignia1 said:
It's a higher dimensional place, that you can only achieve by accessing yourself. Doesn't that mean you must be able to move in said direction?
Click to expand...
No, because you haven't shown anything suggesting it is a "direction" rather than a higher plane.

Xinsignia1 said:
It's a place a lower dimensional beings can't enter.
Click to expand...
I am aware.

Xinsignia1 said:
That seems unlikely considering Mori is also existing in the past and present simultaneously, and irrc time also has it's own axis. The way Mori moves isn't something lower-dimensional beings can do from what I recall, since he's moving in a temporal direction, and spatial direction that's incomprehensible to lower-dimensional beings. Why would those interactions not be considered 4D?
Click to expand...
None of the scans have indicated an additional spatial dimension.

Xinsignia1 said:
Mori should have higher spatial dimensionality, considering he's moving through space that lower dimensional beings cannot. It's a higher dimensional plane that they physically cannot move through.
Click to expand...
None of the scans suggest that the higher dimension has increased spatiality.
 
To outline what Nirvana is which has been done a bit but anyways. @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000

Paradise (Nirvana) is a higher dimensional plane of existence within the the God of High School verse. Within Nirvana space and time overlap (more directly space-time itself overlap as outlined here by Karma) within it. Beings who ascend to this level of existence are noted to become beings of higher dimensions such as Satan being seeing Xuanzang's avatar and described in other instances. As this higher being, Mori is capable of overseeing all of creation and have the power to fix and balance the universe such as the dimensional cracks across the universe. When ascending to this level of existence the person becomes free from the laws of nature and discard their physicals forms and become all-power spirits (it can be seen as transcending their physical form). The beings in this realm can not act within the regular universe and realms without avatars as aforementioned with Xuanzang's avatar protecting Mori and Mori is able to interact across time as the timeline is split into points of time as golden tablets holding those points, as seen when Mori grabbed one at in the chapter it showcases him being the avatar that appeared about 50 odd chapters ago in the flash back.

What I think gives some credence to Mori being 4-D besides the general transcendence of the universe is the that concept of 4-dimensional logic exists within the verse which is noted when a portal into different realms is created, which shows some awareness and understanding of higher dimensions by the author and somewhat reinforces Mori becoming 4-D. I also think with the fact the Mori is able to balance the and fix the universe which would generally be a 4-D feat would also indicate his level of existence, essentially being able to perform these feats after transcending to a higher being.

Looking at the HDE page to me it does seem that Mori could potentially be 4-D. Although I would like to hear your thoughts.
The cosmology for more information regarding the entire cosmology
 
PrinceofPein said:
I do not like reporting users that are not you in the RVR
Click to expand...
Sure, we can now move on.

@Arnoldstone18, it would be more effective to provide a thorough post that explains how these pieces of evidence can contribute to the concept of BDE, rather than using the evidences of OP/or the evidences in general and simply shift it to BDE without give any definitive/explainable reasoning.

It will be easier for us to evaluate.
 
Before anyone says "Dread you ain't staff member, so you can't evaluate any shit", I was implying that other staff members can evaluate this smoothly if you did my request.

I am simply trying to help here, if anything.
 
PowerToScale said:
What I think gives some credence to Mori being 4-D besides the general transcendence of the universe is the that concept of 4-dimensional logic exists within the verse which is noted when a portal into different realms is created, which shows some awareness and understanding of higher dimensions by the author and somewhat reinforces Mori becoming 4-D. I also think with the fact the Mori is able to balance the and fix the universe which would generally be a 4-D feat would also indicate his level of existence, essentially being able to perform these feats after transcending to a higher being.

Looking at the HDE page to me it does seem that Mori could potentially be 4-D. Although I would like to hear your thoughts.
Click to expand...
The universe itself is 4-D in terms of having a temporal dimension. Interacting with the universe doesn't mean you have an additional spatial dimension. The existence of such a thing isn't affirmed by any of these scans, so there's just not enough here to think of Mori as having an extra spatial dimension or Nirvana having one.
 
PowerToScale said:
To outline what Nirvana is which has been done a bit but anyways. @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000

Paradise (Nirvana) is a higher dimensional plane of existence within the the God of High School verse. Within Nirvana space and time overlap (more directly space-time itself overlap as outlined here by Karma) within it. Beings who ascend to this level of existence are noted to become beings of higher dimensions such as Satan being seeing Xuanzang's avatar and described in other instances. As this higher being, Mori is capable of overseeing all of creation and have the power to fix and balance the universe such as the dimensional cracks across the universe. When ascending to this level of existence the person becomes free from the laws of nature and discard their physicals forms and become all-power spirits (it can be seen as transcending their physical form). The beings in this realm can not act within the regular universe and realms without avatars as aforementioned with Xuanzang's avatar protecting Mori and Mori is able to interact across time as the timeline is split into points of time as golden tablets holding those points, as seen when Mori grabbed one at in the chapter it showcases him being the avatar that appeared about 50 odd chapters ago in the flash back.

What I think gives some credence to Mori being 4-D besides the general transcendence of the universe is the that concept of 4-dimensional logic exists within the verse which is noted when a portal into different realms is created, which shows some awareness and understanding of higher dimensions by the author and somewhat reinforces Mori becoming 4-D. I also think with the fact the Mori is able to balance the and fix the universe which would generally be a 4-D feat would also indicate his level of existence, essentially being able to perform these feats after transcending to a higher being.

Looking at the HDE page to me it does seem that Mori could potentially be 4-D. Although I would like to hear your thoughts.
The cosmology for more information regarding the entire cosmology
Click to expand...
Your points here are these
1. Can see all of creation from Tablets
2. Him leaving the universe will stop endless wars, hence brings balance to the universe.
3. Can send his avatar into creation through the tablets
4. He is free from the laws of nature and he his an all powerful being, who can bring balance to the universe.
None of this points whether together or alone means HDE in the slightest.

Also to add, if we are to follow a real life logic, Nirvana being a place where space and time overlaps means a normal universe as literally that is what a universe is, a 4D manifold. Nothing special and nothing that means HDE.

The arguments on supports of HDE are frankly well formulated but lacks any thing that points to HDE.
I will wait some hours more and apply the revision if no other staff is willing to comment.
Although staffs like qawsedf and efficiente should be tagged since they are knowledgeable on this stuffs
 
I really dislike the tablet/mirror argument tho. Like in the panels or in the context, they simply don't serve any actual meanings regarding qualitative superiority.
It's been used for HDE and 5D and many others. It is just like two or three panels in the whole series, and it does not mean anything.

Let alone someone causally used it for 1-B rating.
 
PrinceofPein said:
His avatars exists there
Now read what I am about to say again since this is the 4th time and I am getting frustrated already
To be HDE via existing in multiple places
1. You have to be the one existing and not some sort of avatar or projection
2. You need to exist in every point in time and space.
Click to expand...

Bruh, how are you the one getting frustrated? Seriously? Anyway, Mori's projections are a part of him, HE'S the one that choosing to interact with the lower dimension, that's how he interacts. Once he decides to remain in Nirvana permanently, that will be his only form of interaction hence he opts to do it later.

Also I'd like to point out that I 100% percent believe that when Xuanzang says "this is the point where space and time overlap" she's referring to the tablets because as Mori touches the tablets he says "this is" and she replies "the point where space and time overlap" In general the universes' fabric is made from the overlap of space-time. So I'm saying that the "points" being referenced are the tablets. I didn't think people would assume she's talking about their actual space of the realm beyond nirvana, because that doesn't seen to make sense. I think the confusion that happens after is when she says says this place is called heaven, but that definitely seems to be her description of their current "space" not the tablets. The tablets where inferred to be points in space-time with realm beyond Nirvana being the place Mori had attained. The way I see it, the tablets are some of the perks of nirvana state, but "nirvana" is not the the tablets. So Mori touching the tablets is Mori touching a space-time overlap aka the fabric of the universe (which is a 4D construct)

PrinceofPein said:
None of which Mori qualifes for, also the tablet are not his powerset, he did. It create them, they exist in Nirvana already and as a resident he gets to use them.
Click to expand...

The tablets are part of his powerset, they immediately manifested when he was shown in the realm beyond Nirvana, that IS part of his ability that was granted due to him achieving nirvana.

Deagonx said:
No, because you haven't shown anything suggesting it is a "direction" rather than a higher plane.
Click to expand...
Mori is not using through 3 dimensional space to get to the realm beyond Nirvana though, because he existed in 3 dimensional space, and the realm beyond Nirvana, simultaneously so he has to be traveling through some medium no?. He did not need to move his body through 3 dimensional space to get there, because as he was talking with Xuanzang in the realm beyond Nirvana, as he was also with baby Taejin, and Ahan, as the earth was about to explode from the fallout between Mujin and Mori. To put it bluntly, Mori went to the realm beyond nirvana and influenced the past of the lower dimension, while also staying in the lower dimension simultaneously.
Deagonx said:
None of the scans have indicated an additional spatial dimension.
Click to expand...

How did he get to Nirvana if he's not traveling through 3 dimensional space then, yet it's still a place? Mori's he's actually influencing space-time from that place In fact Xuanzang was shown to influence the past several times from the realm beyond Nirvana as well, she revealed him memories, and even delayed the extinction of the planet with King uma

Deagonx said:
None of the scans suggest that the higher dimension has increased spatiality.
Click to expand...

Mori never left his physical location in 3-dimensional space, given how he was also with baby Taejin, and Ahan, yet he clearly went elsewhere, why wouldn't that account for increased spatiality?
 
Xinsignia1 said:
Mori never left his physical location in 3-dimensional space, given how he was also with baby Taejin, and Ahan, yet he clearly went elsewhere, why wouldn't that account for increased spatiality?
Click to expand...
No, because it could be a spiritual higher plane
 
Deagonx said:
No, because it could be a spiritual higher plane
Click to expand...
But why why couldn't it be spatially higher, and spiritually higher? Xuangzang stated that he would not become a spirit unless he decided to stay in the realm beyond Nirvana Mori entered Nirvana without being an all powerful spirit. Xuanzang was referred to as a being from a higher dimension, not a spiritually higher plane. This is not to say it can't be both, but it was stated to be dimensionally higher, not spiritually.
 
Deagonx said:
It could, there's just no evidence of it.
Click to expand...
How is there no evidence? It was already confirmed Mori could live there as an all powerful spirit, yet we also saw that he was able to access it with his physical body without being a spirit?

Deagonx said:
Why do you need him to have HDE? You're jumping through hoops over this. I don't get it. There's no evidence of increased spatial dimensions.
Click to expand...

It's not that I need him to have HDE, I just think he's strongly does, if other didn't feel that way, then the last CRT would have passed. As Maitreya pointed out in the last CRT were 4 staff disagreed with the HDE removal, so this isn't so much that he "must" have HDE, it's the fact that I strongly think he does, and so do others. The dimension is even referenced as a higher dimension. And if it comes off "as jumping through hoops" then that wasn't my intention, i'm just pulling from the plethora of evidence that I believe justifies his HDE.
 
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I cannot believe the way the arguments for this are simply taking iconic things to mean what they are not.
There are two ways someone ends up, either in hell or in Nirvana.
Mubong after Mori's final battle ended up in hell, while Mori ended up in nirvana. Nirvana means heaven in Buddhist term btw, the highest state of existence where suffering and pain goes away. In fact she said in his language it would be called heaven.
So yes not everyone can ascend cause not everyone ends up in heaven only those chosen will end up in heaven, not due to some cooked up higher dimensional gaps.

Also when it said place where space and time overlaps, it was referring specifically to nirvana, this are literally what she said "this is the place where space and time overlap, I suppose in your language it would be called heaven" so no she was not referring to the tablets
 
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PrinceofPein said:
I cannot believe the way the arguments for this are simply taking iconic things to mean what they are not.
There are two ways someone ends up, either in hell or in Nirvana.
Mubong after Mori's final battle ended up in hell, while Mori ended up in nirvana. Nirvana means heaven in Buddhist term btw, the highest state of existence where
Click to expand...

Um nah, Naranka is governed by the karmic cycle, if you go to Naranka, you're still part of the karmic cycle. Achieving nirvana means breaking out the karmic cycle, Mori broke out of the cycle, not mubong. Naranka is a part of creation Mori rules over.
PrinceofPein said:
suffering and pain goes away. In fact she said in his language it would be called heaven.
So yes not everyone can ascend cause not everyone ends up in heaven only those chosen will end up in heaven, not due to some cooked up higher dimensional gaps.

Also when it said place where space and time overlaps, it was referring specifically to nirvana, this are literally what she said "this is the place where space and time overlap, I suppose in your language it would be called heaven" so no she was not referring to the tablets
Click to expand...

Yeah I already went over this, she calls nirvana heaven but refers to the tablets as spacetime overlaps. Mori looked at the tablet and he said "this is?" he was clearly referring to the tablets no? She then immediately says these are the points were spacetime overlap. Again Mori rules ALL universes and ALL of creation from that space, which again all have different spacetimes. He was clearly operating outside of their spacetime.

Also none of your links are working
 
Xinsignia1 said:
Yeah I already went over this, she calls nirvana heaven but refers to the tablets as spacetime overlaps. Mori looked at the tablet and he said "this is?" he was clearly referring to the tablets no? She then immediately says these are the points were spacetime overlap. Again Mori rules ALL universes and ALL of creation from that space, which again all have different spacetimes. He was clearly operating outside of their spacetime.
Click to expand...
Read it to context, unless she is calling the tablets heaven, your argument does not work.
It's like entering a room and touching a painting, and the overseer says this is the president's office, in your language it will be called the oval office
Is she referring to the painting as oval office or the room he is in?

Anyway I am not going to be drawn in, when I am on PC I will apply the changes and have this closed
Xinsignia1 said:
Also none of your links are working
Click to expand...
They are working here, maybe cause I am on mobile when I linked them, might have made some mistakes
 
Deagonx said:
That was before the standards were updated.
Click to expand...
Sure, but again to my earlier point. Mori was existing in the realm beyond nirvana without being a spirit, if it was only a spiritually higher plane, how was he there? why doesn't that count for increased spatiality?
 
PrinceofPein said:
Read it to context, unless she is calling the tablets heaven, your argument does not work.
It's like entering a room and touching a painting, and the overseer says this is the president's office, in your language it will be called the oval office
Is she referring to the painting as oval office or the room he is in?

Anyway I am not going to be drawn in, when I am on PC I will apply the changes and have this closed

They are working here, maybe cause I am on mobile when I linked them, might have made some mistakes
Click to expand...
Context says the points are space-time overlaps. Space-time overlap=universes fabric. We exist in spacetime. She was definitely referring to to the tablet, Mori said "this is" in reference to tablet. He literally affected that spacetime by touching it.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
Mori was existing in the realm beyond nirvana without being a spirit, if it was only a spiritually higher plane, how was he there? why doesn't that count for increased spatiality?
Click to expand...
Because it doesn't say it involved increased spatiality, and nothing about the situation demands it.
 
Deagonx said:
Because it doesn't say it involved increased spatiality, and nothing about the situation demands it.
Click to expand...
He entered Nirvana without being a spirit, while not moving through 3 dimensional space, why wouldn't that suggest increased spatiality? And it was already referenced as a higher dimension. A higher dimension with a space that non-ascended beings are unable to enter. Is Mori not extending himself to an actual space, while remaining in the the 3D space? Because from the way I see it, Mori is existing in two places simultaneously within becoming a spirit, If he's not extending himself into the realm beyond nirvana, then what is he doing then?
 
Deagonx said:
Because there's no information suggesting Nirvana has increased spatiality.
Click to expand...

How is simultaneously existing in two spaces not increased spatiality, especially when one is completely independent of the spatial+ temporal structures of the lower space? You do realize the realm of Nirvana can't be affected by the lower dimension, while the Nirvana can affect the lower dimension?

And when has it ever been shown or suggested in GoH that higher dimensions do not encompass higher dimensional spaces? You first suggested it may only be a spiritually higher plane, yet Mori existing there before becoming a spirit suggest otherwise. It's clearly not just a higher spiritual plane.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
How is simultaneously existing in two spaces not increased spatiality, especially when one is completely independent of the spatial+ temporal structures of the lower space? You do realize the realm of Nirvana can't be affected by the lower dimension, while the Nirvana can affect the lower dimension?
Click to expand...
I'm like a broken record here. This is becoming extremely tiresome. Nothing about that situation demands higher spatiality. Can you stop asking this same question over and over again?
 
Deagonx said:
I'm like a broken record here. This is becoming extremely tiresome. Nothing about that situation demands higher spatiality. Can you stop asking this same question over and over again?
Click to expand...

And you don't think I sound like a broken record? You realize im asking you this since you did not provide an alternative right??Mori didn't move through 3 dimensional space to get to the realm beyond nirvava, and we know this. If you can't provide an alternative, then I see no reason to believe that Mori does not have increased spatiality because you're not providing any alternative explanations.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
If you can't provide an alternative, then I see no reason to believe that Mori does not have increased spatiality because you're not providing any alternative explanations.
Click to expand...
Increased spatiality doesn't even actually explain that.

You have no evidence of increased spatiality. I don't even see why you want to argue that given not a single scan mentions it or implies it.
 
Deagonx said:
Increased spatiality doesn't even actually explain that.
Click to expand...
How does it not? a 4 dimensional being would be capable of residing in 3 dimensional space and 4 dimensional space simultaneously. It's like the relationship between a 3D object, intersecting a 2D plane. The volume of sphere exist in 3 dimensional space, while the cross section exist in the 2D plane it intersects.
Deagonx said:
You have no evidence of increased spatiality. I don't even see why you want to argue that given not a single scan mentions it or implies it.
Click to expand...
Bruh how? When nirvana doesn't even exist within the 4-D structure of the universe, and resides above it? We have Mori existing outside of that structure, and within it simultaneously, and you're still not offering an alternatives? Because that's basically telling me that you think "I don't know why he can do that, but it has nothing to do with increased spatiality" which isn't even a rebuttal. Nevermind the fact that it was literally referred to as a higher-dimension which clearly operates differently than the lower dimensions.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
How does it not? a 4 dimensional being would be capable of residing in 3 dimensional space and 4 dimensional space simultaneously
Click to expand...
Not in the way you're describing with Mori, but there's nothing indicating Nirvana has an extra dimensional axis either way.

Xinsignia1 said:
When nirvana doesn't even exist within the 4-D structure of the universe, and resides above it?
Click to expand...
This isn't indicative of an additional spatial axis. That what you keep failing to understand. Your continued exasperation that these two things are not connected is getting old. There's no inherent relationship between those two concepts.

Xinsignia1 said:
We have Mori existing outside of that structure, and within it simultaneously, and you're still not offering an alternatives? Because that's basically telling me that you think "I don't know why he can do that, but it has nothing to do with increased spatiality" which isn't even a rebuttal
Click to expand...
The rebuttal is "you've repeatedly failed to provide any evidence of higher spatial dimensions."

Your theory that this whole situation is facilitated by an additional spatial axis needs to be proven. I don't need to prove an alternative lest your theory be accepted by default, that's now how a burden of proof works. You don't have the evidence you need.

Xinsignia1 said:
Nevermind the fact that it was literally referred to as a higher-dimension which clearly operates differently than the lower dimensions
Click to expand...
Yes, dimensions as in realms, not coordinate axes.
 
A question about HDE: Is viewing the entire Universe alongside its entire Axis of time or timeline as fiction grant you HDE? I know on the page it says 3D wouldn't grant you HDE
 
Deagonx said:
No. Seeing something as fiction isn't HDE. To have HDE you need an additional spatial axis
Click to expand...

Hey you never got back to me on wether or not this qualifies as Beyond Dimensional Existence type 2. We agree on the transcendence bit at least, but since you disagree with the HDE, wouldn’t BDE type 2 be a better alternative?
 
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