Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)

[Ultima_Reality]

So, I am by no means knowledgeable on To Aru, but since the Tiering System Revisions have been applied, I figured that'd be appropriate to make, so whatever.

Basically, after doing a read through this blog and its main sections explaining how dimensions work in the verse, I believe they are overall too vague to actually qualify for any tier, especially since the only relevant mentions of them are cross-sectional areas from higher-dimensional spaces and esper phasing out of 3-dimensional space and calculating their position along the 11th axis to teleport to places and yada, none of which really tell us much about the relationship between higher dimensional spaces to the universe in which the series takes place, as far as I've seen.

Of course, I am not really knowledgeable on the series as I've said before, so if the actual people are willing to add anything else of note that may support the verse's current rating, then I'm all ears.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah I always found dimensions in ToAru to be FAR too vague to allow a High 1-C rating.

 

[Antoniofer]

I may not known much, but isn't the 11D here basically a subspace (that's just 4D)?

 

[Kepekley23]

Ask LazyHunter, he is the To Aru expert.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wasn't even sure if he was active until you told me that. Okay then.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

You might also want to ask DonttalkDT(???) too if that helps. Seems he's also knowledgeable in the verse or so I presume from his listing. Dk if he also knows about this particular part of the verses tiering though.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I actually had written a thread on this yesterday that I planned to post today or tomorrow. Let me just copy that in:

The question is whether the MG's should retain their dimension based tier or be downgraded to their best feat otherwise.

Why are they High 1-C to start with?
I will just put a quote form the original revision thread here:

Second, what should we do with the 11-dimensional implications for Magic Gods? Because not only do infinitely weaker characters like esper teleporters or Carissa interact with the 11th dimension, the World the Magic Gods can warp or destroy is 11th dimensional and Othinus herself strongly implies magic gods have control over all dimensions in this quote when explaining how St. Germain is not a Magic God.

"Please wait!! He…he really did bend the entire world before my eyes! It was like…like this… It's hard to explain, but the walls, floor, and ceiling all turned into weapons, tunnels appeared in the people in the way, and they all attacked me at once!" "Have you forgotten?" Othinus sounded almost utterly exasperated. "This is the Dianoid. The entire building is made of carbon materials. That means you don't need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off."
	~ Vol 12 Chapter 2 Part 17​

So it was basically decided that the MG's can control every dimensions To Aru has.

What do we know about those dimensions?
For that I will simply link to the section in LazyHunter's respect blog detailing what we know about them.

The TL;DR is that they are big enough for higher dimensional objects with cross-sections at least a hundred meters long to exist and that teleporters can move through them.

What does this come down to?
The tiering system states:

This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting, or alternatively, one can also qualify for its lower end by creating and/or destroying an uncountably infinite number of universes, or more generally, showcasing uncountably infinite power/size when compared to 4-D beings or objects.

In my opinion the main question is where exactly non-insignificant size starts. They are larger than the small dimensions assumed in String theory, which were motivation of introducing the large dimension thing, but we have no info on them being gigantic either.

What if they get downgraded?
That is also an interesting question. A magic god would still be low 2-C with 1/∞-th of their power. After debates in the past that would be still just high-end Low 2-C. The interesting question is if that changed in the new system, given that the reasoning regarding multiverse level should also have changed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

By non-insignificant I mostly mean that higher dimensions must be "large" (Such as those in Brane Cosmology) and at the very least encompass a cosmic scale, such as that of entire universal / multiversal manifolds and the like, instead of being just compact or simply arbitrarily big.

From what I've seen, Higher Dimensions in To Aru seem a bit too vague to reliably qualify for this requirement.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, personally I'm neutral on the issue. I have given all facts I think. Is infinite times above Low 2-C still Low 2-C or 2-A currently?

Let's wait for the usual suspects to roll in to argue that the tier should stay. (They were already arguing about it on my wall)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah I always thought that Tier 2 To-Aru always seemed more reliable than the alternative. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a well established part of the setting that there are no parallel universes? Only phases of one single large universe?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah I always thought that Tier 2 To-Aru always seemed more reliable than the alternative. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a well established part of the setting that there are no parallel universes? Only phases of one single large universe?

A magic god once indicated that they checked and there are non. Though that has no real bearing on the verses tiering.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, personally I'm neutral on the issue. I have given all facts I think. Is infinite times above Low 2-C still Low 2-C or 2-A currently?

It's Low 2-C, I believe.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I though that having just one main universe (not counting the esoteric ones) no longer hold someone to reach certain tier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, personally I'm neutral on the issue. I have given all facts I think. Is infinite times above Low 2-C still Low 2-C or 2-A currently?
Let's wait for the usual suspects to roll in to argue that the tier should stay. (They were already arguing about it on my wall)

The passive agressiveness and anger on that Message Wall is disconcerning. I hope that LazyHunter can show up here to discuss, as he is one of the few ToAru fans who I can hold a conversation with.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, I though that having just one main universe (not counting the esoteric ones) no longer hold someone to reach certain tier.

It's not a problem but I wanted confirmation because I had ToAru fans tell it to my face that I was wrong and that ToAru had an infinite multiverse or whatever.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw. if I already have a bunch of staff debating the MG's here, would anyone be willing to take a look at this thread regarding giving the MG's resistance to all their abilities? I would really like someone outside input on that.

 

[Malox1696]

Index universe it's 1 but truly infinite, with phases that can be as infinite as the universe itself and has 11D

Probably what he meant by infinite multiverse he meant phases which are pretty much almost the same thing

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Index universe it's 1 but truly infinite, with phases that can be as infinite as the universe itself and has 11D

The problem is that the Higher-Dimensions don't appear to qualify for anything deserving of a higher tier, as explained in detail by Ultima above, who made the new Tiering System. Which ultimately leads us to a Low 2-C to 2-A situation.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think it was determinated that the 11D is too vague, it simply sounds like a between-space.

 

[Malox1696]

I think it was determinated that the 11D is too vague, it simply sounds like a between-space.

??? No there are 11D it's used for teleportation

 

[DontTalkDT]

??? No there are 11D it's used for teleportation

The point is that the 7 dimensions besides the usual 3 + time have to be proven to be infinite or at least large.

That they exist doesn't suffice.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, it would be like the equivalent that saying that The Authority in his Prime is 1-C because he made a mountain that twists through 7 or 8 spatial dimensions.

 

[Malox1696]

If teleportation works anywhere then it's as big as the universe at leaat

 

[Antoniofer]

Ehh, that's not how subspace trave/teleportation works tho.

 

[Malox1696]

It's not used only for travel , it's a physical dimemsion see Curtana

 

[DontTalkDT]

If teleportation works anywhere then it's as big as the universe at leaat

No not really. You forget that a dimensional axis doesn't cover a universe, but (normally) stands orthogonal to it. A dimensional axis can be just 100 meters long and you could still move into the additional dimension from every place in the universe.

 

[StrongClick]

Except the fact debris can appear from any severed coordinate in the universe. The size of it corresponds to the width that Carissa expands original.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah but that doesn't support the axes being large enough to qualify for Tier 1, especially with them being so vague.

 

[StrongClick]

@Ultima What size constitutes large?

 

[LazyHunter]

The structure of Toaru's cosmology is a bit confusing. It's getting late where I am so I'll skip getting quotes from the novels besides those already in the blog (which is a bit outdated anyway) and I'll try to explain it with my own words, so sorry in advance if I miss something or come across as vague, I'll answer any questions/replies to this post tomorrow.

First point to cover is that there's only a single Wold with capital W, with no extra parallel worlds so far. This is a well established fact by the magic gods, as mentioned by Matthew. They all are reality warpers that have to share the same World, that's the whole point of Gremlin.

Inside this World there's a single timeline holding what would be the fictionalized version of our universe/world with higher spatial dimensions, as demonstrated by their esper teleporters and magic like Curtana. This universe/world also contains a series of higher or lower layers of reality of unespecifed size. These so-called Phases change how the world appears to be, and are closely related to the various religions and magic systems. Things like Heaven/Hell/Olympus/Fairy Island are some of the confirmed Phases. These places are where demons, angels and gods live. The Phases coexist in the same space as the physical world, but since they exist at higher or lower "frequencies" the Phases and their inhabitants normally cannot be perceived by humans unless forcefully brought to the normal world via a summoning or ritual.

The problem is that the series also uses the term Phase to identify the new states of the world created by a magic god like Othinus manipulating the entire world (aforementioned religious/mythological Phases included). So, for example, the new worlds she designed to mentally break Touma are each considered distinct Phases, despite these Phases being sequential states of reality that do not exist at the same time and replace the previous one, while normal Phases like Heaven or Asgard clearly do exist simultaneously.

Later Kakeru Kamisato with his World Rejecter show up and he turns to have the ability to send his targets to "another world", which is a sealed world outside the regular timeline with its own timeline that copies the state of the "real" timeline, synchronizing its state to the real world daily (so things destroyed in the World Rejecter world are restored to normal every day, but destroying something in the "real" world will appear destroyed in the World Rejecter world when it next synchronizes). However, this sealed world is still part of the same World with capital W, explicitly using some of the excess space of the single timeline to make a new world. The sealed world's size has not been specified. We know it goes into outer space from Earth, as Coronzon ended up there when relativity shenanigans happened while returning to Earth after being launched into outer space, but we don't know how far it goes.

As for the tiering, I don't know a lot about Tier 1, but if the esper teleporters and Curtana's quotes are considered too vague to support the Tier 1 rating by people more experienced on this subject than I am then I don't personally see an issue with downgrading the verse to Tier 2. The series is ultimately 1 universe/timeline with 11 spatial dimensions + some extra stuff with mostly vague and unspecified sizes (supernatural Phases and World Rejecter's world).

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm not really super well knowledgable on what constitues Tier-1 on the new revisions so I Can't argue what they deem 'large' dimensional size and what not, but Phases blanket the universe. Phases are as large as the universe is large and WR World is literally just the universe but in between the frames of a film. Both would encompass and be the same size as the universe.

One is a filter that applies itself upon the entire Universe.

The other is the same universe but in a time-stopped state more or less so nothing can really permanently change.

I'll withhold from debating everything else and observe, but I am somewhat against Tier 2 but again I'll need to get more details on the specifics of this new Tier Revision system.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@LazyHunter

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

why would the higher dimensions be smaller than the lower ones?

 

[StrongClick]

"This universe/world also contains a series of higher or lower layers of reality of unespecifed size."

We know from curtana being able to sever any coordinate in the universe higher D's are at-least over the 3D world which is infinite. Which is why I asked that question before.

 

[DontTalkDT]

"This universe/world also contains a series of higher or lower layers of reality of unespecifed size."
We know from curtana being able to sever any coordinate in the universe higher D's are at-least over the 3D world which is infinite. Which is why I asked that question before.

I think you have a wrong idea of what dimensions are. A dimension could be 1 mm in size and still span the entire universe.

Consider an infinitely long toilet paper roll. Since it is infinitely long you can eternally go forwards and backwards, so that dimension is infinite. However, going right and left along the rolls surface is a different story. If it only has a finite circumference then that dimension is finite. Regardless of it being finite, no matter where on the roll you are you would be able to go left and right meaning, in a sense, the dimension is always besides you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

why would the higher dimensions be smaller than the lower ones?

Because that's literally how they are in real physics.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, a dimension is literally just an axis of space. A direction one can move in. Like the X, Y, and Z Axis used in geometry. None of them have any real size, they're just directions.

 

[JBennett]

Then why does concidering the size of them 'too vauge' if all that matters is if they are treated as an Axis of Space?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I vaguely recall this being planned for years now, but that it never went through. But I'm inclined to agree with Matt.

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm not gonna lie, this new tiering system is very vague and messy...