Regarding The Goddess of The Manifold (High 1-A?)

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Soooo I've been informed the goddess being one of the Downstreamers is a fan theory and that she's likely above them. And furthermore, there's some evidence as to what degree she is above them.

"We can explore the manifold. We can Map to other realities. Other possibilities. You don't have to send a whole Moon to do that." Mane pondered. "But what is there to look for?" "In fact there is a valid goal," Babo said carefully. The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe ― any given universe ― was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well ― or rather She must exist, as Babo put it. "The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly. The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe. Anyhow, it ― She ― was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons' quest. "Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself ― or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self-referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry-" "A manifold of manifolds." "And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which-"

So even the manifold of the Downstreamers is part of her "manifold of manifolds" and there is "no end to the hierarchies"

This seems pretty blatantly high 1-A...

 

[FanofRPGs]

for comparison, why is the single manifold itself the tier it is again?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Since a single manifold includes an infinite hierarchy of infinite multiverses and the Downstreamers can create realms which are beyond all forms of those

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay, that sounds reasonable then.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Aeyu said on discord this is 1-A+

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I wouldn't have an issue with 1-A+, but I don't see no High 1-A here. I'd also put these ratings next to a "possibly", considering how most of this stuff is spoken in hypothetical terms.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

At least 1-A possibly 1-A+ is fine.

Tho, wouldn't the "no end to the hierarchies" count for something?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hmmm

"At least Outerverse level (Embodies the manifold itself. As a being who embodies and comprehends all levels of existence, she would presumably be far superior to and transcendent over the Downstreamers, as well as transcend realms beyond all known forms of mathemtics), possibly Outerverse level+ (Capable of comprehending and embodies all comprehensible and describable systems, which includes not only a manifold of manifolds, but "no end to the hierarchies of life and mind" beyond it)"

How's this

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I'm not seeing High 1-A, but "At least 1-A" or something along those lines looks fine.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Ultima told me on discord that

<@401357576945795072> At least Outerverse level (Implied to exist as an expression or embodiment of the Manifold itself, being an entity which encompasses and comprehends an ultimate ensemble consisting of all logically-possible universes, with mathematics as the fundamental, underlying basis which defines the whole structure. Should be vastly transcendent over the likes of the Downstreamers, as the "God" of the manifold of universes which they formed), possibly Outerverse level+ (Being defined as a force which externally comprehends all logically consistent formal systems, the Goddess would possibly encompass the full extent of existence, which is hinted to be comprised of an endless recursion of greater manifolds, with there being "no end to the hierarchies of life and mind")

Would work

 

[Elizhaa]

^^

I think this proposal that Ultima have work; I am fine with it.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Zach asked if this could be used for the goddess of manifold




Ultima reccomended it too

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I didn't say he recommended it, I said he said it looks cool

Ehhh, it's not technically meant to be her, but we use stock images if there's not fanart like Amitabha (Touhou Project) and Anu so I'd rather use it than have no pic at all

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Done

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

1-A+ isn't a tier

So for the tiering part, it should be changed to simply higher.

 

[Threemagi]

You know, I think someone said that since the Downstreamers are soooo 'outside' of the multiverse,

The God of the Manifold can be simply the Downstreamers' creation.

So maybe the latter can scale, lol


And where the heck is The God when the Downstreamers are (by the novel's own words) the sole sapient living thing in the entire multiverse?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That's actually a good point. High 1-A Downstreamers yes

 

[Threemagi]

That's actually a good point. High 1-A Downstreamers yes

Well, since whats accepted is just 1-A+, it'd be only 1-A+ for the entire race.

Still a good buff though.


And its not like The God and The Old Ones are mutually exclusive in the first place. They can be same thing, again, lol.


Michael already said that their consciousness spans the entire manifold. And The God is conscious expression of the manifold who watches (comprehend) all the infinite universes, isolating sheaf of universes to protect all sapient lifeforms from cosmic extinction events and/or asshole aliens.


About High 1-A, you can still pitch it, haha. But 'Possibly High 1-A' is best you can go, as @Elizhaa and @Ultima Reality already said. Good luck convincing @Ant though. I'm not very well versed in mathematics so I didn't bother in the last thread.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait hold on, shouldn't the goddess speed be irrelevant?

 

[Threemagi]

Wait hold on, shouldn't the goddess speed be irrelevant?

Yes. Now that Low 1-A is gone.

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean it was obvious.

 

[Elizhaa]

I got to say, is there anything left to discussed here?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Discuss whether the DS scale to her or not I geuss?

 

[Threemagi]

Discuss whether the DS scale to her or not I geuss?

Well, imo, Downstreamers should scale to The Goddess of The Manifold , as I explained in my post above.

@Elizhaa What do you think?

 

[Elizhaa]

I got to say the changes to the The Goddess of The Manifold's profile were made but I got to say it would have been better to post on news of the update on the thread than other find out in their own.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Ultima didn't want to reply again on the thread for some reason

Also possibly 1-A+ Downstreamers is probably fine

 

[Threemagi]

Also possibly 1-A+ Downstreamers is probably fine

Either way, we need to edit the downstreamer page since The Goddess link/name is listed on that page.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ultima didn't want to reply again on the thread for some reaso

I mean you could have posted the news still, man

 

[Elizhaa]

Also possibly 1-A+ Downstreamers is probably fine

What is the proposed justifications for the tier update?

 

[Threemagi]

What is the proposed justifications for the tier update?

The Goddess is one of the Downstreamers.

Her description matches that of Downstreamers' 'physiology'.

And the Downstreamers/Old Ones are the very first sapient race. So it makes sense that The Goddess comes from them.


Why the heck are they not solid 1-A anyway lol? Just one tiny subset of manifold already contains baseline 1-A realm (structureless void backdrop).

If anything, they should get Solid 1-A.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree Downstreamers should be solid 1-A, and I geusssss the goddess could be a Downstreamer, but I know Aeyu was heavily against this idea

 

[Threemagi]

I agree Downstreamers should be solid 1-A,

We can change it when other Manifold CRTs are concluded...

I geusssss the goddess could be a Downstreamer, but I know Aeyu was heavily against this idea

Just take off Goddess link in Downstreamers page then. To avoid confusion. If we are to keep both separate.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Let's not change it until we do know, though.

 

[Threemagi]

Let's not change it until we do know, though.

Well, we won't get any better info... Unless you want to wait for second installment of World Engines.

World Engines Destroyer is not really useful. It only establish higher order manifold and higher order logic hierarchy into infinity (if xombined with Manifold Time statements).

Well, at least it helps the credibility of The Downstreamers encompassing and beyond all kind of logical systems.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I haven't read world engines, I heard about it yesterday, and when I did i thought "I should read this to see if it effects the verse"

And... that doesent boost it higher, but that's more proof of 1-A

DS should be solid 1-A

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Tho, can you post the world engines quotes?

 

[Threemagi]

@Zachary If you want to buy World Engines for the sole reason to see some multiversal quotes, I suggest don't. There are only few worthwhile quotes for upgrade, imo.

The story mainly deals with humans driving another planetary engine to divert incoming rogue planet from entering solar system.

Manifold has higher-order

`You may be right that we come from different alternate realities, Malenfant. Two strands in some higher-order manifold of possible universes. If so, the strands don't seem to run in neat parallel lines, like lanes on a highway, do they? They must - touch - in a more complicated way. Here, in Phobos. And maybe other places like it.' He shook his head, trying to clear his thoughts.
	~ World Engines : Destroyer​

'Higher-order' might be alluding to quote of 'manifold of manifolds infinite hierarchy'.
We might be looking at infinite outerversal hierarchy here? Considering just One Manifold (of possibly lower order) already contains all possible cosmologies.

Higher order logic, in manifold

`Impossible,' Emma said. `Experienced, impossible or not,' Bartholomew said. `There's probably a logic to all this,' Emma said. 'Just as there is probably a logic to having those five hoops in a space where only four hoops can exist. It's just that it's a - higher - logic than we are capable of seeing.' `Yeah,' Malenfant said, thinking hard.
	~ World Engines : Destroyer​

It has 'higher order logic'. Maybe this quote lends some legitimacy about manifold encompassing all forms of logic.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean higher order manifold could just mean the ultimate manifold

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Uh, one last thing, her speed should be changed from "At least immeasurable likely omnipresent" to "at least irrelevant likely omnipresent"

 

[Elizhaa]

Seems fine.