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Regarding The Goddess of The Manifold (High 1-A?)

ZacharyGrossman273

ZacharyGrossman273

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3,938
Soooo I've been informed the goddess being one of the Downstreamers is a fan theory and that she's likely above them. And furthermore, there's some evidence as to what degree she is above them.

"We can explore the manifold. We can Map to other realities. Other possibilities. You don't have to send a whole Moon to do that." Mane pondered. "But what is there to look for?" "In fact there is a valid goal," Babo said carefully. The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe ― any given universe ― was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well ― or rather She must exist, as Babo put it. "The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly. The catch was that there was a manifold of possible universes, of which this was only one. So She may not exist in this universe. Anyhow, it ― She ― was to be the ultimate goal of the Daemons' quest. "Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself ― or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self-referential, in some sense conscious. Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry-" "A manifold of manifolds." "And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which-"

So even the manifold of the Downstreamers is part of her "manifold of manifolds" and there is "no end to the hierarchies"

This seems pretty blatantly high 1-A...
 
Since a single manifold includes an infinite hierarchy of infinite multiverses and the Downstreamers can create realms which are beyond all forms of those
 
I wouldn't have an issue with 1-A+, but I don't see no High 1-A here. I'd also put these ratings next to a "possibly", considering how most of this stuff is spoken in hypothetical terms.
 
Hmmm

"At least Outerverse level (Embodies the manifold itself. As a being who embodies and comprehends all levels of existence, she would presumably be far superior to and transcendent over the Downstreamers, as well as transcend realms beyond all known forms of mathemtics), possibly Outerverse level+ (Capable of comprehending and embodies all comprehensible and describable systems, which includes not only a manifold of manifolds, but "no end to the hierarchies of life and mind" beyond it)"

How's this
 
Yeah I'm not seeing High 1-A, but "At least 1-A" or something along those lines looks fine.
 
Ultima told me on discord that

<@401357576945795072> At least Outerverse level (Implied to exist as an expression or embodiment of the Manifold itself, being an entity which encompasses and comprehends an ultimate ensemble consisting of all logically-possible universes, with mathematics as the fundamental, underlying basis which defines the whole structure. Should be vastly transcendent over the likes of the Downstreamers, as the "God" of the manifold of universes which they formed), possibly Outerverse level+ (Being defined as a force which externally comprehends all logically consistent formal systems, the Goddess would possibly encompass the full extent of existence, which is hinted to be comprised of an endless recursion of greater manifolds, with there being "no end to the hierarchies of life and mind")

Would work
 
You know, I think someone said that since the Downstreamers are soooo 'outside' of the multiverse,

The God of the Manifold can be simply the Downstreamers' creation.

So maybe the latter can scale, lol


And where the heck is The God when the Downstreamers are (by the novel's own words) the sole sapient living thing in the entire multiverse?
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
That's actually a good point. High 1-A Downstreamers yes
Click to expand...
Well, since whats accepted is just 1-A+, it'd be only 1-A+ for the entire race.

Still a good buff though.


And its not like The God and The Old Ones are mutually exclusive in the first place. They can be same thing, again, lol.


Michael already said that their consciousness spans the entire manifold. And The God is conscious expression of the manifold who watches (comprehend) all the infinite universes, isolating sheaf of universes to protect all sapient lifeforms from cosmic extinction events and/or asshole aliens.


About High 1-A, you can still pitch it, haha. But 'Possibly High 1-A' is best you can go, as @Elizhaa and @Ultima Reality already said. Good luck convincing @Ant though. I'm not very well versed in mathematics so I didn't bother in the last thread.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Also possibly 1-A+ Downstreamers is probably fine
Click to expand...
Either way, we need to edit the downstreamer page since The Goddess link/name is listed on that page.
 
Elizhaa said:
What is the proposed justifications for the tier update?
Click to expand...
The Goddess is one of the Downstreamers.

Her description matches that of Downstreamers' 'physiology'.

And the Downstreamers/Old Ones are the very first sapient race. So it makes sense that The Goddess comes from them.


Why the heck are they not solid 1-A anyway lol? Just one tiny subset of manifold already contains baseline 1-A realm (structureless void backdrop).

If anything, they should get Solid 1-A.
 
I agree Downstreamers should be solid 1-A, and I geusssss the goddess could be a Downstreamer, but I know Aeyu was heavily against this idea
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
I agree Downstreamers should be solid 1-A,
Click to expand...
We can change it when other Manifold CRTs are concluded...

I geusssss the goddess could be a Downstreamer, but I know Aeyu was heavily against this idea

Just take off Goddess link in Downstreamers page then. To avoid confusion. If we are to keep both separate.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Let's not change it until we do know, though.
Click to expand...
Well, we won't get any better info... Unless you want to wait for second installment of World Engines.

World Engines Destroyer is not really useful. It only establish higher order manifold and higher order logic hierarchy into infinity (if xombined with Manifold Time statements).

Well, at least it helps the credibility of The Downstreamers encompassing and beyond all kind of logical systems.
 
I haven't read world engines, I heard about it yesterday, and when I did i thought "I should read this to see if it effects the verse"

And... that doesent boost it higher, but that's more proof of 1-A

DS should be solid 1-A
 
@Zachary If you want to buy World Engines for the sole reason to see some multiversal quotes, I suggest don't. There are only few worthwhile quotes for upgrade, imo.

The story mainly deals with humans driving another planetary engine to divert incoming rogue planet from entering solar system.

Manifold has higher-order

`You may be right that we come from different alternate realities, Malenfant. Two strands in some higher-order manifold of possible universes. If so, the strands don't seem to run in neat parallel lines, like lanes on a highway, do they? They must - touch - in a more complicated way. Here, in Phobos. And maybe other places like it.' He shook his head, trying to clear his thoughts.
~ World Engines : Destroyer​
'Higher-order' might be alluding to quote of 'manifold of manifolds infinite hierarchy'.
We might be looking at infinite outerversal hierarchy here? Considering just One Manifold (of possibly lower order) already contains all possible cosmologies.

Higher order logic, in manifold


`Impossible,' Emma said.

`Experienced, impossible or not,' Bartholomew said.

`There's probably a logic to all this,' Emma said. 'Just as there is probably a logic to having those five hoops in a space where only four hoops can exist. It's just that it's a - higher - logic than we are capable of seeing.'

`Yeah,' Malenfant said, thinking hard.
~ World Engines : Destroyer​
It has 'higher order logic'. Maybe this quote lends some legitimacy about manifold encompassing all forms of logic.
 
Uh, one last thing, her speed should be changed from "At least immeasurable likely omnipresent" to "at least irrelevant likely omnipresent"
 
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