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Regarding Mew and Arceus

The_real_cal_howard

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This has to do with the ability to use all moves.

Mew
This one is quick. Almost every Pokedex entry mentions how it can use any move.

Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.
~ Silver Pokedex Entry​
Mew is said to possess the genetic composition of all Pokémon. It is capable of making itself invisible at will, so it entirely avoids notice even if it approaches people.
~ Ruby/Sapphire Pokedex Entry​
Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.
~ Diamond/Pearl/Platinum Pokedex Entry​
Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.
~ Black/White Pokedex Entry​
It's very intelligent and can use an incredible variety of moves. Many believe that all other Pokémon are descendants of this one
~ Sword Pokedex Entry​
Needless to say, that's a lot of entries, even down to the latest game. Mew has been shown to be the ancestor of all Pokémon in the manga, and the Pokedex is treated as a reliable source here. Also, in Pokémon GO, which is canon due to Let's Go!, Mew has the most possible moves, with 15 fast attacks and 25 charged attacks.

"But Cal, the Pokedex is referring to being able to learn every TM, TR, HM, and tutor moves!"
Game mechanics. Mew can only learn so many moves via level up. Imagine having to comb though like, 8 moves at once because your Mew reaches level 24, only to have to do it again at level 29. Furthermore, the Pokedex says all moves and techniques. Moves like Scratch or Confusion aren't in its levelup moves, and it's not any of those listed above.

"But Cal, it could be referring to how Mew can use all moves through Transform/Metronome!"
Unfounded leap in logic. No Pokedex entry talks about its transform story abilities and Pokémon more known for using Metronome, like Clefairy or Togepi, don't bring up the same factor.

"But Cal, there are some tutor moves Mew can't learn!"
Correct. Mew can't learn the Starter exclusive moves and can't learn Draco Meteor. But that's because they're newly created moves, created by man to be taught to Pokémon. The Starter exclusive moves were created by the old woman Ultima (she doesn't have a name in the games, only the manga). I don't have the quote on me, but if someone wants, I'll link gameplay with the scene later. Given that this happens during Red's story, which is the first to happen chronologically, it's reasonable to assume that the other tutors of the moves learned it from her.

Draco Meteor is no different. Or at least it shouldn't be. This move is first taught by Wilma, who iirc is Cynthia's grandmother, after she mentions how she learned the move back when she lived in a city full of powerful Dragon Tamers. It's quite reasonable that she mastered the move during her prime when she lived in that city.

The only exceptions are the Legendary exclusive moves. I have no reasonings there. Though I do a theory. The tutors don't know that Mew can use every move. Mew's a mirage. Nobody knows what Mew even looks like except for devout researchers and the lucky S.O.B. who befriended it. So why would they think this random cat Pokémon can learn a move only exclusive to one or two Pokémon that definitely aren't Mew? Of course, this is just a theory.

"Well, smart guy. What moves can't Mew use?"
Simple. We already acknowledged that Mew can't use moves that were recently created by man without Transform or Metronome. Which means it can't use the Porygon line's Conversions, Mewtwo's Psystrike, Genesect's Techno Blast, etc. should be off limits. Furthermore, it shouldn't get moves that are exclusive to Pokémon that predate it (so no to Arceus's Judgement, Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent, Regigigas's Crush Grip, etc.) or Pokémon that aren't from earth (so no to Deoxys's Psycho Boost, Jirachi's Doom Desire, Solgaleo's Sunsteel Strike, etc.). At least without Transform or Metronome. Every other move should be fair game.

Arceus
We've already been over the whole song and dance about Arceus knowing every move. It was accepted, then removed.

"Cal, what was the old logic?"
It was based on a scene in the manga where Arceus is spamming move after move while switching plates, using moves that gameplay-wise, it should have no business learning. Coupled with him having created all the types, I jumped to the conclusion that Arceus can just use any move it wants with all plates.

And yes, it is stated that all types are byproducts of the plates.

"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

"Cal, what new do you bring to the table?"
Honestly, not much. It's a lot less solid than Mew. It's on top of the old thing, it's based on the awareness. Arceus being inside every person and Pokémon.

When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world.
Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one. People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence.
~ Arceus Researcher​
The quote seems to imply that even all people and Pokémon are parts of Arceus, being made of his presence, for lack of a better word.

And if every Pokémon is simply a part of Arceus, then it serves to say that Arceus should have their abilities, like how he does with the CT and LT.
 
I'll read this more in depth later as im in a class atm, but if it helps, Mew randomly busts out multiple different pokemon moves in literally the first episode of the current anime.
 
I agree, though I think that the things about the moves and Arceus would be safer to apply only to the original spirit.
 
I agree with it.

Why was Arceus' having all abilities removed in the first place?

I also think that Mew should get every stuff linked to the species themself and which aren't already moves because of possessing "the genetic composition of all Pokémon." I'm not sure how it's supposed to work for Ghost-type tho.
 
YuriAkuto said:
I agree with it.
Why was Arceus' having all abilities removed in the first place?

I also think that Mew should get every stuff linked to the species themself and which aren't already moves because of possessing "the genetic composition of all Pokémon." I'm not sure how it's supposed to work for Ghost-type tho.
This is actualy a good point.

If Mew has all Pokemon DNA (sans the obvious exceptions), then shouldnt he also gain their abilities? And by "abilities", I mean things like Static, Blaze, Torrent, Overgrowth, Wonder Guard, etc.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
YuriAkuto said:
I agree with it.
Why was Arceus' having all abilities removed in the first place?

I also think that Mew should get every stuff linked to the species themself and which aren't already moves because of possessing "the genetic composition of all Pokémon." I'm not sure how it's supposed to work for Ghost-type tho.
This is actualy a good point.
If Mew has all Pokemon DNA (sans the obvious exceptions), then shouldnt he also gain their abilities? And by "abilities", I mean things like Static, Blaze, Torrent, Overgrowth, Wonder Guard, etc.
Oh, I like this idea...
 
Not a chance theirs Toaru's Haxed, including instant one shot Fiamma, Almighty Yhwach, Satan from Devil Man, Masada characters, and D&D characters.
 
Looking at the top 5 strongest they do, as number one in 5B is D&D characters.
 
The real cal howard said:
Oh, also Genesis Supernova should be At least 5-B, likely 4-B. Given it's stated somewhere that Mega Evolution=Z Moves, Mew's Z Move should be on the level of Mewtwo's Mega Forms.
Btw, since Mew's supposed to be 4-B via transform anyway, I agree with this as well.
 
Do we have a list of Pokémon that should pre-date Mew? I know any god tiers or those involved in continent creation or placement would, but are there other notable ones?

Other groups like the aliens, Regis, and man mades are all fairly easy.

Regarding naturally having the traits of all pokemon, I disagree with that. Ditto's Pokédex entries demonstrate that you need both the genetic code and cellular structure of a pokemon to fully mimic them, so other than when using transform to match their cell structure Mew shouldn't have biological traits of other pokemon.

I do agree with Mew's ability to use every Pokémon's move, especially since it's ability to use their moves is what makes some researchers think it's the ancestor to all pokemon. If it weren't able to use moves exclusive to certain pokemon, they wouldn't come to that conclusion.
 
Yeah, Mew does that too, cause the ability to restructure its DNA and Cells is transform, but the point is that the traits of the pokemon come from both the cellular composition and the genetic makeup. Mew naturally has that genetic makeup, but only has the bodily/cellular composition through transform. So it should only have physiological abilities of other pokemon with transform.
 
I don't really agree with that either. Having every move is one thing, since it's explicitly said, but abilities are different. Just having someone/thing's genetic code doesn't give you their traits unless your body is actively using that code in your cells to govern biological function. Since Mew just has genetic code and doesn't display other traits (appearance, typing, physiology, etc) of the pokemon it's unlikely to be actively using the code it has, so it shouldn't just be given traits/abilities/etc of other pokemon unless there's evidence for it (unless it's using transform).
 
But wait, shouldn't the same logic for Mew's ability to use all abilities also the applied to their abilities too?

Just like moved many are Unique to the pokemon, however, Mew can still use them despite this.

I don't see why we would have a double standard for this exact thing, considering for any attacks Mew doesn't physically possess the ability to use some of these Moves, but does anyway, the same should be applied to their abilities, as that is the logic Gamefreak is using for Mew.
 
It explicitly states that Mew can use every move, and it's been shown to learn almost every move in games (the rest can be assumed to be omitted due to game mechanics as per the op). Conversely Mew has never been shown to have every ability, or any other "ability" aside from Synchronize, and it having every Pokemon's ability is an assumption based on what it says about genetic material. Hell, Mewtwo is a literal clone of Mew, and none of its forms share Mew's ability in-game.

That being said, I agree with the OP.
 
Mewtwo isnt a good example to be fair since its DNA comes from Mews DNA being spliced in experiments. It's no longer the same DNA as Mew but its modified.

Even then, Transform at the very least should give Mew every ability if it cant physically possess them all.
 
Ditto then? Anyway, I'm fine with Mew getting abilities via transform, just that it can't have all at the same time.
 
In short: Mew is THE living ancestor. Arceus is THE entirety of existence. Ditto is an imperfect science experiment.

Jokes aside, this is self-explanatory, tbh. Idk why removals of abilities/attacks proven previously by this were removed in the first place.
 
I agree that Mew should have all moves, but not all abilities/skills, but Arceus having them too would make some sense
 
"And if every Pokémon is simply a part of Arceus, then it serves to say that Arceus should have their abilities, like how he does with the CT and LT."

I dont remember when or where, but this was rejected somewhere. I remember because I agreed with this.

Though right now I'd vouche for something like what Yhwach has in his profile, sort of "it makes sense that they can use it, but have never used it".
 
Being rejected before doesn't mean it should now, especially if the reasoning is wrong. And Arceus has the abilities of the other 2 Trio's anyway (which we currently accept). So if all Pokemon were apart of Arceus, that should be enough to grant them to him as well.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Being rejected before doesn't mean it should now, especially if the reasoning is wrong. And Arceus has the abilities of the other 2 Trio's anyway (which we currently accept). So if all Pokemon were apart of Arceus, that should be enough to grant them to him as well.
I only meant that there was some counter argument done before that had enough consistency to reject it, as no new evidence that I know of has been presented in OP.

Since I cant remember, Im not disagreeing, of course. Just saying that those arguments can come back.
 
I mean if PaChi agrees with it then I am satiated, even if this gets rejected.
 
I think it was "we dont assume that the creator has the abilities of their creation". Or something like that.
 
Everyone at least agrees for Mew, so I'll add what should've been added five years ago.
 
PaChi2 said:
I think it was "we dont assume that the creator has the abilities of their creation". Or something like that.
Oh yeah I definitely remember that argument. But I changed it up, as they're not just his creations but another part of him.

I think there's some religion that's like this, where everyone is apart of a singular higher force. Is it Buddhism?
 
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