Regarding inconsistent showings for DBS Saiyans.

[Omegas03]

Aren't Base to SSJ2/3 Saiyans showings wayy to inconsistent in DBS despite they have absorbed the SSG power onto their Base?

-Goku absorbs his SSG on his SSJ and made the power his.

-fights with a really strong trained Frieza who seems to be stronger than BoG Suppressed Beerus. Even pre ToP both Base Goku and Frieza got a couple of good hits on each other.

-fights Copy Vegeta who in Base lolstomped SSJ3 Gotenks, fights evenly against a Suppressed Beerus again in Base.

This is all fine, but then there goes the problem:

-Gohan and Piccolo who were weaker than even First Form Frieza in the RoF arc, seem to be comparable to Frost who fought an post-RoF Base Goku. How is that possible when barely any time has passed after RoF? Two High 4-C training for a really short amount of time is better than Goku and Vegeta training with Whis it seems.

-Future Trunks, who 2 years prior had trouble with Dabura was comparable to Goku and Vegeta who supposedly have SSJG power in Base. The heck?

-Base Black was comparable to SSJ2 Goku. After Black adapts to Goku's style he no sold attacks from SSJB Vegeta. So Base Black is comparable to SSJB but then SSJ Rose is obviously the SSB version of Black and despite that Goku and Vegeta aren't massively weaker than Black, even with some training (or rage boosts), both Goku and Vegeta catch up to Black.

My point is that Black was using SSG power in Base and that's why he got a hit on Vegeta, maybe Goku and Vegeta were doing the same all along.

-SSJ2 Goku fought Present Zamasu. Goku supposedly used much more power against a Kaioshin than against an Suppressed Beerus, a GoD as a SSJG.

-Gohan who is supposedly 3-A has trouble fighting Lavender who along with the rest of the Trio have Tier 4 feats at best.

-Gohan again, it was said that Gohan tapped on his previous Mystic (4-B) power again yet he his supposedly 3-A back at the U6 arc with no real good reason.

-Some of the Pride Troopers who are supposedly Tier 4 gave a lot of trouble to Caulifla and Kale (to the point Kale had to use Berserker SSJ and both were heavily exhausted after the beam struggle), even Goku had trouble with some of them.

-Goku and Vegeta have trouble with the Trio de Dangers who are Tier 4.

-Android 18 has a buttload of Tier 3 feats such as fighting alongside 17 rather consistently, help in the fight against Anilaza and being portrayed as stronger than the Pride Troopers and Ribrianne who had a lot of Tier 3 feats as well (giving trouble to Caulifla and Kale in the Troopers case, and fighting against Goku, Vegeta and 17 for Ribrianne) yet she is High 4-C via scaling above Krillin or because she has no reason to get stronger when Piccolo got to 3-A by training with a High 4-C in the U6 arc... Her 3-A rating was also rejected because of her Low end showings, thing that happens even more times to Goku and Vegeta or any DB Tier 3 in general who scales to Non Godly SSJ Forms.

-SSJ Caulifla who is 3-A struggled to push Napapa who is 4-B. Napapa also got stomped by Final Form Frieza who is Base Goku tier (or SSJ2, or SSJG, or whatever because even that is inconsistent).

That's a lot of Low end/supposedly inconsistent feats tbh. If it was one it would be fine, but there are a lot. And I am sure I am missing some. Such as supposedly Tier 3 characters getting damaged by 4-Bs or High 4-Cs.

Saying that it's just Low ends or Anti feats doesn't really take the problem away, but I dunno about what would solve the problem:

Option 1: everyone who scales to the Non Godly SSJ Forms should have their ratings changed to Varies from 4-B to 3-A

Option 2: analyze it on a case by case basis.

I insist, saying it's just Low ends or inconsistency doesn't solve anything when it actually happens a lot of times. There has to be a good reasoning. Thoughts?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We have discussed all of this so many times and there are way too many threads about this being made all at once. We are not downgrading the base forms of the Saiyans and there are so many characters who are definitely universal. Saying, "It's lazy writing" isn't enough. However, PIS and Outliers are things that appear all throughout Tournament of Power.

Also, Goku and Vegeta hold back all the time, so they never actually "Struggled" per say.

 

[Omegas03]

The solution for that problem wasn't at all convincing and a lot of people disagree with a lot of 3-A ratings, I think this should be discussed again.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It doesn't matter how many people offsite nor necoming disagree, it's literally explained in AKM Sama's blog. There base forms surpassing what their initial Super Saiyan God forms was established a long time ago. Piccolo and Gohan have also gotten much stronger than they were during the battle of resurrected Frieza. And even Frieza growing stronger in a short time frame is still a thing people could knit pick.

 

[Omegas03]

It isn't offsite though. Some people here in general disagree with the Tier 3 ratings.

Anyways, I am not suggesting a massive downgrade, but maybe even a revision to a some of the Tier 4s because it's stupid for Tier 4 characters to be consistently giving trouble to Tier 3 ones.

I insist, the showings are rather inconsistent. 18, Ribrianne and the Pride Troopers can't be 3-A yet Frost, Beginning of FT arc Future Trunks and U6 arc Piccolo are.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even then, we've been having so many discussions about this. We have already analyzed every detail case by case. Everyone currently 3-A has shown legit reason to scale, while the ones who aren't have yet to; that was decided long ago. Also, A lot of Tier 3 characters toy with the Tier 4 characters all the time. There's literally nothing new here to discuss.

 

[ByAsura]

The scaling does seem incredibly wacky, to be honest, even if there's an explaination. But it's a Tournament, so having everyone struggle against each other is probably for entertainment rather than powerscaling, and the authors probably don't care about who surpasses whom. I still think case-by-case powerscaling should be taken into account.

I disagreed on downgrading 18 in the previous thread, but it was overruled because she has "no reason to be stronger" and struggled against one Krillin-level opponent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally have nothing against 18 being upgraded, nor Ribrianne, or some of the Pride Troopers, however. The Tournament of Power is full of PIS that make the scaling inconsistent. And we also can't rely on loop holes of "Top tier characters got distracted by fodder characters". And obviously, not every Pride trooper is universal.

But, we have had so many discussions. Perhaps AKM Sama might have more to add, but I honestly don't know a single Admin who isn't exhausted with the same discussion repeated over and over again.

 

[ByAsura]

I pretty much agree.

 

[ByAsura]

Time to go through this thoroughly. A lot of people will probably disagree with my reasoning, especially since some of it goes against the profiles.

-After Black adapts to Goku's style he no sold attacks from SSJB Vegeta. So Base Black is comparable to SSJB but then SSJ Rose is obviously the SSB version of Black and despite that Goku and Vegeta aren't massively weaker than Black, even with some training (or rage boosts), both Goku and Vegeta catch up to Black. My point is that Black was using SSG power in Base and that's why he got a hit on Vegeta, maybe Goku and Vegeta were doing the same all along.

I have a problem with the profile here. Everyone seems to mention Base Goku Black going toe to toe with Vegeta, but they don't mention that he flares his aura here and manages to catch his punch, heavily surprising him. Goku Black does stab through Vegeta, but he was clearly off guard and it's implied it this same attack was going to kill Vegito, who (worth noting) managed to cut right through Fusion Zamasu by using a Ki Blade.

Black almost certainly wasn't at full power (he does call it a warm-up, after all, so it's highly likely he was suppressed), he's stronger tha his base form, regardless, otherwise Vegeta and the others probably would've mentioned something. Also, it's implied Black surpassed and quite easily defeated Goku because he absorbed Vegeta's fighting style.




-Gohan and Piccolo who were weaker than even First Form Frieza in the RoF arc, seem to be comparable to Frost who fought an post-RoF Base Goku. How is that possible when barely any time has passed after RoF? Two High 4-C training for a really short amount of time is better than Goku and Vegeta training with Whis it seems.

Frost was heavily weakened against Piccolo. He probably didn't go from Universe level to Solar System level, though, so I agree this is kind of strange.

-Future Trunks, who 2 years prior had trouble with Dabura was comparable to Goku and Vegeta who supposedly have SSJG power in Base. The heck?

Who didn't even achieve Super Saiyan 2 until part way through this battle (I'm 99% sure it's SS2, as his hair stands much higher, but they skip the transformation and lightning) and vaporized Dabura shortly after first transforming. Also, where's the source for it being 2 years?

-Gohan who is supposedly 3-A has trouble fighting Lavender who along with the rest of the Trio have Tier 4 feats at best.

Basil, the youngest brother, has Tier 4 scaling. But I agree this is kind of strange and maybe we should go further into the discussion about non-godly base form characters.

-Gohan again, it was said that Gohan tapped on his previous Mystic (4-B) power again yet he his supposedly 3-A back at the U6 arc with no real good reason.

-Some of the Pride Troopers who are supposedly Tier 4 gave a lot of trouble to Caulifla and Kale (to the point Kale had to use Berserker SSJ and both were heavily exhausted after the beam struggle), even Goku had trouble with some of them.

-Goku and Vegeta have trouble with the Pride Troopers who are Tier 4.

-SSJ Caulifla who is 3-A struggled to push Napapa who is 4-B. Napapa also got stomped by Final Form Frieza who is Base Goku tier (or SSJ2, or SSJG, or whatever because even that is inconsistent).

Gohan is definitely 3-A in the Tournament. He's consistently portrayed as being on the level of SSB, such as fighting Dyspo with Golden Frieza (including surviving one of GF's blasts), overpowering the Universe 3 robot fusio, and seemingly contributing a similar amount of power alongside the other SSB-level characters while fighting against Anilaza.

I'd say this is a product of some fairly incoherent power-scaling that really should be case-by-case. I don't think it'd also hurt to get rid of a couple profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that we should probably upgrade Android 18 (and similarly powerful characters) to 3-A, despite that it doesn't make sense from a storytelling standpoint that she grew more powerful without training.

 

[LordTracer]

I also agree with 3-A 18. Especially since one of the Pride Troopers, Tupper, was overpowering base Goku and 18 then defeated him rather casually.

 

[Omegas03]

@ByAsura

About the Trunks part; now that I think about it the timespan it's not even mentioned so idk why I brought that up. My point of Trunks being comparable to SSJG level characters still stands though because he didn't get an Godly power up and he was comparable to Goku and Vegeta back then, though this could be said for most of the characters I guess.

About Gohan, yeah he's definitely 3-A in the ToP.

My point was that before the ToP when Gohan recovered his Mystic form it was said he recovered his power from back then (Buu arc, which is 4-B) IIRC which is odd imo.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Perhaps ask some other staff members first.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Yes. Feel free to do so.

 

[Omegas03]

I asked some knowlodgeable staff to give input here

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I personally disagree with 3-A 18 but she has grown more powerful through out the series.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

fights with a really strong trained Frieza who seems to be stronger than BoG Suppressed Beerus. Even pre ToP both Base Goku and Frieza got a couple of good hits on each other.

Base Frieza is far more consistently scaled to SSG Goku. Beyond God was a 'thing' around RoF, so I think Frieza actually scales to SSG-level in Base.

Gohan and Piccolo who were weaker than even First Form Frieza in the RoF arc, seem to be comparable to Frost who fought an post-RoF Base Goku. How is that possible when barely any time has passed after RoF? Two High 4-C training for a really short amount of time is better than Goku and Vegeta training with Whis it seems.

Goku holds back constantly, and often transforms against opponents when he clearly doesn't need to. So I think we can just dismiss this as Goku screwing around.

Future Trunks, who 2 years prior had trouble with Dabura was comparable to Goku and Vegeta who supposedly have SSJG power in Base. The heck?

To be fair, he was likely Zenkai boosting against Black. Note that he was given Senzu Beans and buffed up to his peak form for the first time in ages. We also know Half-Saiyans have tons of untapped potential, as later shown when Trunks achieves SS Rage.

Base Black was comparable to SSJ2 Goku. After Black adapts to Goku's style he no sold attacks from SSJB Vegeta. So Base Black is comparable to SSJB but then SSJ Rose is obviously the SSB version of Black and despite that Goku and Vegeta aren't massively weaker than Black, even with some training (or rage boosts), both Goku and Vegeta catch up to Black.

Vegeta at least trained in the Time Chamber for multiple months and learned to Rage Boost at will. Goku just asspulled his power boost.

SSJ2 Goku fought Present Zamasu. Goku supposedly used much more power against a Kaioshin than against an Suppressed Beerus, a GoD as a SSJG.

That Beerus would get one-shot by RoF Frieza and Goku, so I don't think a prodigy Kai being like 1/1,000,000th of Beerus' power is that insane, especially not when that Kai is from another universe entirely.

Gohan who is supposedly 3-A has trouble fighting Lavender who along with the rest of the Trio have Tier 4 feats at best.

Gohan should only be 3-A in his Ultimate state. I assume the justification for 3-A SS and SS2 Gohan is due to sparring with Goku?

 

[LordTracer]

If I may contest that Frost point, he was later shown to make Hit actually try and in the ToP he was briefly throwing hands with SSJ Vegeta. So I don't think Goku was messing around with Frost.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

If I may contest that Frost point, he was later shown to make Hit actually try and in the ToP he was briefly throwing hands with SSJ Vegeta. So I don't think Goku was messing around with Frost.

Hit claims Frost has grown since he last saw him , and the gap between Golden Frieza and the ToP is about a year in-universe. We don't really know how quickly members of Frieza's race can grow, but if Frost is anything like Frieza it isn't far-fetched to claim Frost just grew that much stronger.

To add further, Frost was curbstomped by a pretty casual looking SS Goku, but could clash toe-to-toe with Post-Black SS2 Vegeta so it's clear he has grown FAR stronger since he fought in the Universe 6 tournament, regardless of whether he was 3-A or not prior.

SS Goku is insanely above Frost so the only real argument for 3-A Frost (during the Universe 6 saga) is Assault Frost managing to give Base Goku a hard time, but as I said Goku has a very bad tendency of toying around and entering forms when he doesn't really need to.

Claiming Goku was using 3-A power in Base is also questionable at this point, considering Beyond God was a thing back during this time period. If you don't believe me, just look at Base Frieza surprising SSB Goku when Goku had the edge in base form or his explanatio that Blue is achieved when the power of a Super Saiyan God goes Super Saiyan.

Goku transformed into a normal Super Saiyan when he fought Frost, so he clearly wasn't using the powers of Super Saiyan God beforehand.

You may also argue, then, that Super Saiyan Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku after absorbing the powers of Super Saiyan God, but this is inconsistent with how Goku fairs with Frieza, Frost, etc after his battle with Beerus.

Either

• A) Goku was just holding back as massively as Beerus does, against Frost

• B) The Super Saiyan Goku against Beerus was equivalent to an imperfect Super Saiyan Blue, who wasn't melding its energies with Goku's godly energies properly

I personally think the latter makes sense, but it's more of a headcanon as far as I am aware.

 

[Omegas03]

@Cyro

Remember that if we take the Frost, Piccolo and Gohan part as Goku screwing around, they would all be downgraded to 4-B in their U6 arc keys.

As for the Black part, the point is that Black must have been using SSG power in Base to damage SSB Vegeta else both Goku and Vegeta would have gotten a SSB worthy power boost to being able to match Black merely some moments later.

I guess the Trunks and Zamasu points are fair, but later on SSJ or SSJ2 tier characters are depicted as weaker or not far stronger than Majin Buu.

Gohan as of U6 arc is 3-A because he is comparable to U6 arc Piccolo who kept up with Frost

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Rewatching the fight between SS Goku and Beerus, Goku can't hit Beerus at all and Beerus was easily knocking him around. But Goku manages to hit Beerus once (with a notable sound effect) that surprises Beerus, and then it happens again (same sound effect) with Beerus surprised again. It seems almost like Goku wasn't constantly using the power of SSG as a Super Saiyan, but rather the power awoke in bursts when Goku was fighting.

The only thing contradicting this, is Goku claiming he doesn't 'feel any weaker' when Beerus gets angry and points out that he isn't a God anymore but is somehow still at God-level. But this is contradicted by Beerus and Whis believing Goku had lost the power...which is also contradicted by Vegeta being confident in Goku. So it's all pretty damned inconsistent.

Regardless, it seems at first Goku was only using SSG power in bursts, when he reverted to a Super Saiyan.

The battle afterwards is pretty short (only 3 minutes in IRL time) but Goku seemed to consistently wield the power of SSG in SS to fight toe-to-toe with Beerus. Even so, he took a ton of battle damage and ultimately got knocked out of Super Saiyan, but managed to reawaken to resist Beerus for a bit longer.

Overall, Goku triggered his SSG power in bursts, then managed to consistently maintain his SSG power for a few minutes (at most) to fight Beerus in Super Saiyan.

I think there is legitimate argument here that Goku was using an imperfected SSGSS against Beerus. Supported by the sound cues when he uses SSG power at first, the existence of SSB (SSG x Super Saiyan), the fact that he didn't go Super Saiyan 2 or 3, even after realising he was no longer in God and the fact that he can use SSG's power in Base form as evident from Beerus Saga to Black Saga.

 

[ByAsura]

No, the point was that Beerus thought Goku had lost all his power (and he seemingly did, if only for a moment), but he was wrong. Beerus virtually admits this right after, saying that while Goku lost the form, he'd absorbed its strength.

There's no legitimate argument, because we're never given this information in canon.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, Beerus and Whis both have Ki Sensing and Beerus was treating Goku like a joke, easily dodging his attacks. When Goku had bursts of strength (striking Beerus) Beerus was completely confused, angry and blatantly questioning how Goku was using the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Goku insulted Beerus' ego by pointing out his God status, so Beerus made up an explanation on the spot.

Overall, Beerus' explanation is nothing more than a hypothesis on something he himself didn't understand, only made because his ego was bruised.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Hell, watching closer. Beerus even asks Goku to verify if his hypothesis is correct and Goku states he has no clue.

Beerus and Goku both have no clue about his usage of SSG's power in SS.

 

[ByAsura]

The point was he lost all traces of godly-ki, that's why they thought he was weaker.

A hypothesis that remains consistent throughout the rest of the battle, and one that we're made to believe is the truth. The narrator even reiterated this, and he's stated to be on a higher level later.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm not stating Goku wasn't 3-A in that fight. I'm stating Goku wasn't using the power of a SSG at first, but gradually tapped into it as he fought. Meaning he can use his other forms without his SSG power or can use them with SSG power just like his Base form.

My argument is that Goku was using a Psuedo-SSGSS, which he mastered and developed by the time of his battle with Frieza into Super Saiyan Blue.

 

[ByAsura]

Oh, at first is fine and likely has at least grain of truth to it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You can also note, Beerus was clearly hurting a lot after being hit by Goku's SSG powered punch, whereas before he was fighting toe-to-toe with SSG Goku just fine. That indicates Beerus was using less power against Goku, after he lost SSG, and was still easily dodging all of Goku's blows and knocking him around.

There is a clear sound cue when Goku punches Beerus in the face and hurts him, which happens both times this occurs.

Psuedo-SSGSS Goku > Beerus = SSG Goku > Suppressed Beerus >> SS Goku

Would be the rough scaling chain I am proposing, based on the above perception.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, Frieza trained a lot in Hell to the point where he's also way stronger during ToP than he was in RoF saga. So he has since far surpassed Frost at that point in time. And I never considered Frost as strong as Golden Frieza, but he has been shown be stronger than his base form.

Goku also does hold back all the time, but Gohan also as multiple showings of his base form being equal to Base Goku and SSJ form equal to SSJ Goku. Which lower formed Goku and Vegeta are definately staying at 3-A given the explanations. And during the ToP training, Piccolo went from appearing similar in strength to Gohan's base form, to literally stomping his SSJ2 form. So Piccolo has way more reason to be 3-A than 18 does. Especially considering he's almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan and fought well against the U6 Namekians.

Kale is pretty much a pacifist when she's in base form and is not really wanting to fight. Caulifa on the other hand is more serious, but her struggling against some lower Pride Troopers might be PIS. Ribrianne should be considered comparable to 18 for sure; but 17 did appear to hold back against her. But that being said, I mostly trust AKM Sama's sense of judgement regarding the scaling.

 

[AKM sama]

~Links a lot of threads where these topics were discussed and runs away

 

[LordTracer]

I also agree with 3-A 18. Especially since one of the Pride Troopers, Tupper, was overpowering base Goku and 18 then defeated him rather casually.

Some more 3-A 18 stuff I forgot: Frost seemed wary of fighting her, and in the two times she "fought Krillin level fodder," iirc only one got a legitimate hit on her. The other time (during the Solar Flare) only happened because she wasn't expecting it. And there's more examples of 3-A stuff for her than High 4-C.

High 4-C Characters She's Scaled To:

- Shosa

- Majora (Only landed a hit on her when she wasn't expecting it)

3-A Characters She's Scaled To:

- Ribrianne (Consistently fought Goku and Vegeta throughout the ToP)

- Frost (Was wary of fighting her despite being fine with fighting Vegeta)

- Tupper (Was overpowering Goku)

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Could someone explain why Goku even rates Universe+? That's something I don't understand.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Could someone explain why Goku even rates Universe+? That's something I don't understand.

Wait...............................are you serious?

 

[Antvasima]

~Links a lot of threads where these topics were discussed and runs away

Well, unless a lot of staff members are interested in discussing this, we should probably stick with the previous results.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Could someone explain why Goku even rates Universe+? That's something I don't understand.

Wait...............................are you serious?

Yep. Serious. DBS isn't something I really watch since the multiplier for SSG is ridiculous. I was just wondering what feat actually puts Goku at Universe+, as opposed to simply 3-A.

 

[AKM sama]

I can guarantee you that most of the staff that were present in those previous discussions are not interested in discussing this anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just responding to LordTracer. Tupper is not 3-A; Base Goku was like literally not even trying to fight back as Tupper tried restraining him. And he's currently rated at 4-B for some reason and based; might need to be fixed as it's based on a bad justification of holding down a held back Base Goku. And he got overpowered by 18. And not sure about her fighting Frost or Ribrianne; but the latter is currently rated as at least High 4-C, likely far higher.

And now that I think about it, a few characters do have rather bad justifications; like there are some who are High 4-C while others are 4-B despite having the "Comparable to each other" in their descriptions. I think it might be worth getting a few of those sorted before we close this.