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I know Tupper and Ribrianne aren't currently 3-A, I'm saying that they should be for the reasons I listed, and those would support 3-A 18.
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Regarding inconsistent showings for DBS Saiyans.
- Thread starter Omegas03
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I'm neutral Ribrianne, but I have doubts about Tupper given Goku was literally just playing around and he was than stomped by 18. Though, some of the Pride Troopers were implied to be stronger than Napapa, so I could see some 4-B upgrades at the very least for some of the weaker Pride Troopers and those comparable to them.
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Yeah, I agree with Tracer
Anyways, if 18, Pride Troopers and Ribrianne aren't 3-A because huh Saiyans holding back in most of their battles then I don't think U6-arc cast besides Hit also has any reason to be 3-A. Heck, I do disagree entirely with 3-A U6 arc Piccolo and Gohan tbh.
Anyways, if 18, Pride Troopers and Ribrianne aren't 3-A because huh Saiyans holding back in most of their battles then I don't think U6-arc cast besides Hit also has any reason to be 3-A. Heck, I do disagree entirely with 3-A U6 arc Piccolo and Gohan tbh.
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Goku didn't really seem like he was playing around there, and you did say earlier that you'd be fine with 18 being 3-A, so her stomping Tupper doesn't really change anything. Especially since all of 18's 3-A showings already put her at like a nigh-SSJ Goku level.
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Goku and Vegeta weren't holding back that much against the U6 cast. And a lot of them were legit considered strong against their base forms. And Magetta legit overpowered Vegeta's Super Saiyan form. And although Vegeta was implied to be somewhat worn out from fighting Magetta, his base form was equal to Cabba's base form and his SSJ form was equal to Cabba's SSJ form. And he went SSB to oneshot SSJ2 Cabba. The U6 have more than enough proof to be 3-A as do Piccolo and Gohan.
And again, I said I was neutral regarding 18 and Ribrianna. But I don't think every single Pride Trooper is 3-A, some of them were legit struggling to fight some underdogs and a few others were literally outright stomped. Cocotte for example is also literally featless besides her super tough barrier. But, some of them IMO should at bare minimum be 4-B and I'll explain examples later.
And again, I said I was neutral regarding 18 and Ribrianna. But I don't think every single Pride Trooper is 3-A, some of them were legit struggling to fight some underdogs and a few others were literally outright stomped. Cocotte for example is also literally featless besides her super tough barrier. But, some of them IMO should at bare minimum be 4-B and I'll explain examples later.
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I don't think every Pride Trooper should be 3-A either, but Tupper and Zoiray I think should. Zoiray was fighting Goku and 18 so if 18 becomes 3-A, I think Zoiray should as well. Cocotte, Casserale and Kettol can stay where they are. Although Cocotte should have her justification changed, cause unless I'm misremembering she never actually fought 18.
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Also kinda off topic, but could somebody make it so just searching Ribrianne will make her page come up instead of having to put 'Brianne de Chateau' into the search bar every time.
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Wouldn't 4-B Shosa mean 4-B Krillin, and then probably 4-B Tenshinhan and Roshi? Although if you want 4-B for the weaker Troopers, then IMO the statistics should be:
18, Ribrianne, Tupper and Zoiray: 3-A
Cocotte, Kettol and Casserale: 4-B
18, Ribrianne, Tupper and Zoiray: 3-A
Cocotte, Kettol and Casserale: 4-B
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By holding his own against Jiren, who is >>>>>>> Infinite Zamasu via multiple statements of "Being the strongest foe Goku's ever faced" and with his power being almost on par with a literal GoD. If you haven't seen the later arcs, sorry to say that I SPOILED THE ENTIRE THING FOR YOU.ChemistKyle89 said:
Also like AKM said, we've discussed the Low 2-C topic to hell and back in other threads and don't wanna talk about it anymore.
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3-A 18 is an obvious outlier. Disregard. We talked about this when the episodes first came out and nothing's changed.
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She has more evidence for 3-A in the ToP than being Krillin-level, and that honestly seems like an outlier. Also, that's completely untrue, we had her as 3-A, and then her rating was changed (I think it was after the thread where Peter suggested we remove Goku and 17's end of ToP Key, where they beat Jiren).
To be clear, I'm neutral on it. I'm not saying she should be 3-A.
To be clear, I'm neutral on it. I'm not saying she should be 3-A.
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I don't know about Krillin or the other humans, but Kettol has legit done better against casual Caulifa than Napapa has, and Napapa is 4-B via trading blows with Basil who is comparable to Majin Buu. And other Pride Troopers should be on similar levels to Kettol. And Shosa was shown to have almost knocked out Android 18 it should be noted. And Goku quite literally didn't even try to fight back against Tupper and he was weaker than some of the other Pride Troopers and was stomped by 18.
And I knew Matt was going to disagree heavily with 3-A 18 for sure. Which he has a good sense of judgement regarding the scaling. But, I got nothing against some 4-B upgrades. As well as some justification changes.
And I knew Matt was going to disagree heavily with 3-A 18 for sure. Which he has a good sense of judgement regarding the scaling. But, I got nothing against some 4-B upgrades. As well as some justification changes.
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Yes, that's High 4-C at the very least as even Gohan with the Z Sword couldn't even scratch regular Katchin. And Kaioshin also considered it far more durable than himself.
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I've got some more stuff afterwards.
Universe 2
Most of the characters, such as Bikal, are grossly outclassed by Universe level characters when they actually try, so I'm going to make this quick.
Ribrianne
To intimidate the other universes, all magical girls release a love assault on the other players of the Tournament, which visibly cracks and explodes Katchi Katchi. According to Ribrianne, that attack was a mere greeting, and most of her stronger ones revolve around physical moves, which are more than capable of demolishing the arena. She also easily defeated Jirasem, one of Universe 10's strongest (many characters in this league have Solar System level feats and can trouble Krillin-level opponents, but I'll go more indepth later), leaving his skin charred, and survived an attack that cratered the arena.
Ribrianne does go toe-to-toe with Universe level characters, but it's later shown that they were holding back. For example, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta, but he later obliterates her in base, Base Goku explicitly uses more power to fight Super Ribriane (who honestly could be Universe level), and 17 holds back against all of the Magical Girls.
At the end of the Tournament, she's explicitly called the ace in the hole of Universe 2. So if she's the strongest and can't even stand up to Universe level characters without frequent massive amps through love, then it makes no real sense for any of them to be at this level, aside from the pseudo-magical girls.
Universe 3
I'm excluding Koicéareta and Anilaza, because they're comparable to most of Universe 3 combined and explicitly Universe level.
Maji-Kayo doesn't have any anti-feats, to my knowledge. He's restrained Super Saiyan Goku and Dyspo with his muscular form, but was defeated by Jiren's air punch. Catopesra, on the other hand, is extremely inconsistent (though generally weaker than Universe level characters) and probably needs some more showings. I suppose Borareta is fine at Universe level, but I'm relying entirely on the wiki, and Biarra's notably tough body was damaged by 18 and 17's combo, who were portrayed as relatively equal here, so this could be an anti-feat.
The God of Destruction of Universe 3 says "[Nigrissi,] as the greatest modwarrior in the 3rd Universe, your mere presence gives us a major advantage." Nigrissi could go toe-to-toe with an untransformed Ganos, but was demolished by base Cabba and Vegeta. So this puts any Universe level feat into question, unless the modwarriors are only the cybernetic ones from Universe 3, and not the robots.
Universe 9
As mentioned on most of the profiles, Basil, even without powering up, is able to take blows from Good Buu and deflect a semi-serious blast. It's implied the other two brothers, presumably at their respective lowest levels, are more powerful. According to the profile, they get stronger (I vaguely remember this line), and kind of fight Universe level characters on many occasions, but I'm really not sure about their placement.
Hyssop, Chappil and a few others fight Universe level characters, but Roselle is outclassed by Frieza, Sorrel is way weaker than 18, Hop is challenged by Catopesla and easily defeated by Vegeta, and Comfrey is matched by Shosa.
Universe 10
Even Rylibeu, seemingly a weaker member of Universe 10, was able to fight Basil, though she was quickly defeated. Dium was also implied to be a threat to Krilli. Murisam was easily defeated by base Cabba, and even Nappapa (who could deflect 3 of Basil's attacks) was grossly outclassed by Frieza.
Obuni is fine where he is due to specifically being the strongest of Universe 10. We've discussed this in a past thread, which was murdered by a formatting error in the wiki.
Universe 11
Vewon is completely and utterly featless, and Kettle has already been covered here. It's worth noting that they all use their maximum power against Kale and Caulifa.
Despite being able to hold base Goku, 18 grossly outclassed Tupper with one hand. 18, even if Universe level, is weaker than base Goku, who could stand in the Pretty Black Hole while weakened. So it's likely he was holding back. Kahseral, K'nsi and Zoire have no real anti-feats to my knowledge, and a buch of Universe level feats.
Universe 2
Most of the characters, such as Bikal, are grossly outclassed by Universe level characters when they actually try, so I'm going to make this quick.
- Jimize outmatches base Gohan, but then he gets curbstomped by a very casual Frieza because he doesn't hold back. He does survive being thrown through Katchi Katchi and outclasses Zircor, a key player of Universe 10.
- Harmira's attacks (which are similar in nature to Piccolo's SBC, by the latter's admission) demolish the arena (a feat he can still accomplish while weakened) and knock out Tien's 1/4th power clones. He can also survive Tien's Tri-Beam that demolishes a whole pillar of Katchi Katchin, though he was outmatched by 3 of his 4 clones.
Ribrianne
To intimidate the other universes, all magical girls release a love assault on the other players of the Tournament, which visibly cracks and explodes Katchi Katchi. According to Ribrianne, that attack was a mere greeting, and most of her stronger ones revolve around physical moves, which are more than capable of demolishing the arena. She also easily defeated Jirasem, one of Universe 10's strongest (many characters in this league have Solar System level feats and can trouble Krillin-level opponents, but I'll go more indepth later), leaving his skin charred, and survived an attack that cratered the arena.
Ribrianne does go toe-to-toe with Universe level characters, but it's later shown that they were holding back. For example, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta, but he later obliterates her in base, Base Goku explicitly uses more power to fight Super Ribriane (who honestly could be Universe level), and 17 holds back against all of the Magical Girls.
At the end of the Tournament, she's explicitly called the ace in the hole of Universe 2. So if she's the strongest and can't even stand up to Universe level characters without frequent massive amps through love, then it makes no real sense for any of them to be at this level, aside from the pseudo-magical girls.
Universe 3
I'm excluding Koicéareta and Anilaza, because they're comparable to most of Universe 3 combined and explicitly Universe level.
Maji-Kayo doesn't have any anti-feats, to my knowledge. He's restrained Super Saiyan Goku and Dyspo with his muscular form, but was defeated by Jiren's air punch. Catopesra, on the other hand, is extremely inconsistent (though generally weaker than Universe level characters) and probably needs some more showings. I suppose Borareta is fine at Universe level, but I'm relying entirely on the wiki, and Biarra's notably tough body was damaged by 18 and 17's combo, who were portrayed as relatively equal here, so this could be an anti-feat.
The God of Destruction of Universe 3 says "[Nigrissi,] as the greatest modwarrior in the 3rd Universe, your mere presence gives us a major advantage." Nigrissi could go toe-to-toe with an untransformed Ganos, but was demolished by base Cabba and Vegeta. So this puts any Universe level feat into question, unless the modwarriors are only the cybernetic ones from Universe 3, and not the robots.
Universe 9
As mentioned on most of the profiles, Basil, even without powering up, is able to take blows from Good Buu and deflect a semi-serious blast. It's implied the other two brothers, presumably at their respective lowest levels, are more powerful. According to the profile, they get stronger (I vaguely remember this line), and kind of fight Universe level characters on many occasions, but I'm really not sure about their placement.
Hyssop, Chappil and a few others fight Universe level characters, but Roselle is outclassed by Frieza, Sorrel is way weaker than 18, Hop is challenged by Catopesla and easily defeated by Vegeta, and Comfrey is matched by Shosa.
Universe 10
Even Rylibeu, seemingly a weaker member of Universe 10, was able to fight Basil, though she was quickly defeated. Dium was also implied to be a threat to Krilli. Murisam was easily defeated by base Cabba, and even Nappapa (who could deflect 3 of Basil's attacks) was grossly outclassed by Frieza.
Obuni is fine where he is due to specifically being the strongest of Universe 10. We've discussed this in a past thread, which was murdered by a formatting error in the wiki.
Universe 11
Vewon is completely and utterly featless, and Kettle has already been covered here. It's worth noting that they all use their maximum power against Kale and Caulifa.
Despite being able to hold base Goku, 18 grossly outclassed Tupper with one hand. 18, even if Universe level, is weaker than base Goku, who could stand in the Pretty Black Hole while weakened. So it's likely he was holding back. Kahseral, K'nsi and Zoire have no real anti-feats to my knowledge, and a buch of Universe level feats.
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I mostly agree with ByAsura as well, there's just two things I'd like to "contest," for lack of a better term.
"For example, she did fought Super Saiyan Vegeta, but he later obliterates her in base, Base Goku explicitly uses more power to fight Super Ribriane (who honestly could be Universe level)"
During Episode 109, when base Vegeta and Ribrianne were fighting, Ribrianne was able to match one of Vegeta's Ki blasts at one point (and Vegeta at this point, based on feats, was significantly stronger than Goku), so she was at least kinda hanging in there. Although I'd be fine if Base Ribrianne was High 4-C - 4-B and Super Ribrianne and Giant Ribiranne are 3-A.
"Despite being able to hold base Goku, 18 grossly outclassed Tupper with one hand. 18, even if Universe level, is weaker than base Goku, who could stand in the Pretty Black Hole while weakened."
The vid you sent shows all three of them, Goku, 17 and 18 pinned down. It doesn't show Goku being able to stand in the Pretty Black Hole. Also the majority of 18's 3-A/potential 3-A feats put her above base Goku. For example: She overpowered Tupper, who overpowered base Goku. Frost was wary of fighting her yet was perfectly fine with fighting SSJ Vegeta. She essentially stomped Giant Ribrianne even flying straight through one of her blasts at one point, and Giant Ribrianne is stronger than Super Ribrianne, who was fighting Goku and you said could be 3-A.
"For example, she did fought Super Saiyan Vegeta, but he later obliterates her in base, Base Goku explicitly uses more power to fight Super Ribriane (who honestly could be Universe level)"
During Episode 109, when base Vegeta and Ribrianne were fighting, Ribrianne was able to match one of Vegeta's Ki blasts at one point (and Vegeta at this point, based on feats, was significantly stronger than Goku), so she was at least kinda hanging in there. Although I'd be fine if Base Ribrianne was High 4-C - 4-B and Super Ribrianne and Giant Ribiranne are 3-A.
"Despite being able to hold base Goku, 18 grossly outclassed Tupper with one hand. 18, even if Universe level, is weaker than base Goku, who could stand in the Pretty Black Hole while weakened."
The vid you sent shows all three of them, Goku, 17 and 18 pinned down. It doesn't show Goku being able to stand in the Pretty Black Hole. Also the majority of 18's 3-A/potential 3-A feats put her above base Goku. For example: She overpowered Tupper, who overpowered base Goku. Frost was wary of fighting her yet was perfectly fine with fighting SSJ Vegeta. She essentially stomped Giant Ribrianne even flying straight through one of her blasts at one point, and Giant Ribrianne is stronger than Super Ribrianne, who was fighting Goku and you said could be 3-A.
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She matched it for a matter of seconds, until he overpowered her. Also, Goku and Vegeta were roughtly comparable throughout this saga. The fact that Base Goku is comparable to a much stronger form really goes to show how weak her base is.
He does rise, but not stand, I just couldn't find a full clip or remember properly. This is also while weakened. Goku was clearly holding back against Tupper (which is why even his basic weight held him dow), and was completely restrained because he had been taken off guard and bear hugged with little to no leverage, also Frost showed some concern about fighting base Vegeta and had assistance from base Magneta when they first fought.
18 was amped by love as well, for some reason, which Ribrianne later supports.
Unrelated, but I have evidence for 18 being way stronger than she was in the Android Saga if nobody accepts Universe level.
He does rise, but not stand, I just couldn't find a full clip or remember properly. This is also while weakened. Goku was clearly holding back against Tupper (which is why even his basic weight held him dow), and was completely restrained because he had been taken off guard and bear hugged with little to no leverage, also Frost showed some concern about fighting base Vegeta and had assistance from base Magneta when they first fought.
18 was amped by love as well, for some reason, which Ribrianne later supports.
Unrelated, but I have evidence for 18 being way stronger than she was in the Android Saga if nobody accepts Universe level.
Just wondering, where was this stated?DarkDragonMedeus said:
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Eh, I really don't think they were comparable at the beginning of the ToP. Just look at Pre-UIO Goku's performance against a suppressed Jiren in Episode 109 v. Vegeta's performance against Jiren in Episode 122.
Mmm, 17 wasn't able to stand or rise either and he's stronger than both base Goku and 18. So I don't think that really shows base Goku > 18. Especially since at that point Goku had gotten the limit break from UIO1 that pretty much gave him an SSJ2 level amp (which I can explain if you need).
And with the whole Goku v. Tupper thing, if Goku was suppressed... why didn't he just power up a bit to overpower him? Plus Goku was visibly struggling to get out of the hold. And later, when Zoiray did his tornado move, a casual 18's ki blasts were shown to have just as much (or I guess just as little in this case) of an effect as Goku's. And could you show where Frost was concerned over base Vegeta? Either way, he still willingly fought SSJ Vegeta while with 18 he ran immediately. Yeah, Magetta helped, but Frost was about to fight Vegeta even before Magetta showed up.
I dunno if it's just me, but Shin's statements don't seem like 100% concrete evidence of an amp. Could you show Ribrianne's statements about it?
Mmm, 17 wasn't able to stand or rise either and he's stronger than both base Goku and 18. So I don't think that really shows base Goku > 18. Especially since at that point Goku had gotten the limit break from UIO1 that pretty much gave him an SSJ2 level amp (which I can explain if you need).
And with the whole Goku v. Tupper thing, if Goku was suppressed... why didn't he just power up a bit to overpower him? Plus Goku was visibly struggling to get out of the hold. And later, when Zoiray did his tornado move, a casual 18's ki blasts were shown to have just as much (or I guess just as little in this case) of an effect as Goku's. And could you show where Frost was concerned over base Vegeta? Either way, he still willingly fought SSJ Vegeta while with 18 he ran immediately. Yeah, Magetta helped, but Frost was about to fight Vegeta even before Magetta showed up.
I dunno if it's just me, but Shin's statements don't seem like 100% concrete evidence of an amp. Could you show Ribrianne's statements about it?
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This was episode 111, not 112. He was at his normal level of power.
17 is almost always suppressed throughout the Tournament, except in situations where it requires more power, such as the Hop (or whoever) fight. Also, Goku was weakened due to turning into Super Saiyan Blue, SSB Kaioken and Ultra Instinct an episode before.
He could've also gone Perfected Super Saiyan with no energy loss, or even Super Saiyan Blue if he felt it was necessary by this logic. Even against Ribrianne, Goku didn't power up until she went to a whole other level. Because he brought Magneta as back up even against his base. I can't remember the statement, but it's irrelevant, because Frost didn't say it was due to power, he just left, and 18 was relatively on par with Majora in this episode.
Her tone and the nature of the episode seems to imply it's an amp.
By the way, do you know the statement Medeus is talking about?
17 is almost always suppressed throughout the Tournament, except in situations where it requires more power, such as the Hop (or whoever) fight. Also, Goku was weakened due to turning into Super Saiyan Blue, SSB Kaioken and Ultra Instinct an episode before.
He could've also gone Perfected Super Saiyan with no energy loss, or even Super Saiyan Blue if he felt it was necessary by this logic. Even against Ribrianne, Goku didn't power up until she went to a whole other level. Because he brought Magneta as back up even against his base. I can't remember the statement, but it's irrelevant, because Frost didn't say it was due to power, he just left, and 18 was relatively on par with Majora in this episode.
Her tone and the nature of the episode seems to imply it's an amp.
By the way, do you know the statement Medeus is talking about?
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ByAsura also does makes some good points, but I'll look at some of the details. I agree that Base Vegeta and Base Goku being more than powerful enough to stomp Ribrianne is some strong points to consider. As well as 17 severely holding back. She's easily the strongest of her Universe, especially with Power of Love, and that 18 should scale to her; and it's implied she's also empowered by Love?
I agree it's questionable for any of the Universe 3 cast to be Universal excluding the obvious god tiers like Anilaza who's easily massive degrees of 3-A.
Most if not all the Universe 9 cast are very fodder. Even Basil, who's allegedly the 3rd strongest of the Universe 9 cast lost to Good Buu pre-training. And Lavender needed to poison Gohan just to fight against his base form which base Goku was casually blitzing Lavender in base form thanks to his barrier. Bergamo is the only Universal tier in Universe 9, but only via his energy absorption. Goku and Vegeta did go Super Saiyan Blue at the last second, but where holding back similar to what happened in Goku Vs Krillin. And they completely obliterated all three of them. Universe 9 being the weakest of the Universes was made pretty blatant from the start.
Pretty much agree with the Universe 10 stuff.
And for Universe 11, Goku was literally not even trying to fight back against Tupper. 18 stomped him and Android 18 is clearly below base Goku. And yeah, the lower leveled Pride Troopers clearly when all out against some of the Universe 6 Saiyans, who also could be holding back similar to what Goku and Vegeta do.
So at the very least, everyone superior to Napapa should be 4-B, but there's still too many questionable characters to make 3-A. Not saying it's impossible, but still a lot of them are iffy.
I agree it's questionable for any of the Universe 3 cast to be Universal excluding the obvious god tiers like Anilaza who's easily massive degrees of 3-A.
Most if not all the Universe 9 cast are very fodder. Even Basil, who's allegedly the 3rd strongest of the Universe 9 cast lost to Good Buu pre-training. And Lavender needed to poison Gohan just to fight against his base form which base Goku was casually blitzing Lavender in base form thanks to his barrier. Bergamo is the only Universal tier in Universe 9, but only via his energy absorption. Goku and Vegeta did go Super Saiyan Blue at the last second, but where holding back similar to what happened in Goku Vs Krillin. And they completely obliterated all three of them. Universe 9 being the weakest of the Universes was made pretty blatant from the start.
Pretty much agree with the Universe 10 stuff.
And for Universe 11, Goku was literally not even trying to fight back against Tupper. 18 stomped him and Android 18 is clearly below base Goku. And yeah, the lower leveled Pride Troopers clearly when all out against some of the Universe 6 Saiyans, who also could be holding back similar to what Goku and Vegeta do.
So at the very least, everyone superior to Napapa should be 4-B, but there's still too many questionable characters to make 3-A. Not saying it's impossible, but still a lot of them are iffy.
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@Asura
Episode 112 was the episode where Cabba got eliminated...?
Hop was the cat girl from Universe 9 that got taken out by Vegeta, I don't think 17 ever fought her. And Goku was stamina drained, yeah, but that wasn't really a real issue until the end of the ToP. Cause even with the "stamina drain," he is still shown as stronger than he was prior to going UIO. For example, during the Caulifla-Kale-Kefla stuff: Goku was supposedly fatigued, but his base was now strong enough to match SSJ2 Caulifla in power despite being equal to his SSJ2 before UIO. And since the Pretty Black Hole happened after even UIO2, his base should be much stronger than it was at the beginning of the ToP. So that doesn't really show BoT Base Goku > 18.
Okay, but Goku said that since it was the beginning of the ToP, he was trying to pace himself. Going to full power in his base would not cause any drainage whatsoever (and later in the ToP we see that even SSJ still causes energy drain). So really, if Goku was suppressed, there was absolutely no reason for him to not just go full power. Frost didn't ask Magetta to come help him, unless I just missed a statement somewhere. Frost was in a fighting stance, ready to go against base Vegeta, and then Magetta interrupted before they could fight. And the most logical assumption about Frost running from 18 is that he didn't think he could beat her. And I explained a while ago why Majora wasn't actually on par with 18.
It really still doesn't seem like an amp to me.
And no, I don't. I would've thought her fight with Trunks and Goten in the Buu Arc showed she got stronger.
@Medeus
Goku was actually visibly struggling to escape from Tupper's hold. And like I said earlier, both Goku and a casual 18's ki blasts were shown to be equally ineffective against Zoiray.
Episode 112 was the episode where Cabba got eliminated...?
Hop was the cat girl from Universe 9 that got taken out by Vegeta, I don't think 17 ever fought her. And Goku was stamina drained, yeah, but that wasn't really a real issue until the end of the ToP. Cause even with the "stamina drain," he is still shown as stronger than he was prior to going UIO. For example, during the Caulifla-Kale-Kefla stuff: Goku was supposedly fatigued, but his base was now strong enough to match SSJ2 Caulifla in power despite being equal to his SSJ2 before UIO. And since the Pretty Black Hole happened after even UIO2, his base should be much stronger than it was at the beginning of the ToP. So that doesn't really show BoT Base Goku > 18.
Okay, but Goku said that since it was the beginning of the ToP, he was trying to pace himself. Going to full power in his base would not cause any drainage whatsoever (and later in the ToP we see that even SSJ still causes energy drain). So really, if Goku was suppressed, there was absolutely no reason for him to not just go full power. Frost didn't ask Magetta to come help him, unless I just missed a statement somewhere. Frost was in a fighting stance, ready to go against base Vegeta, and then Magetta interrupted before they could fight. And the most logical assumption about Frost running from 18 is that he didn't think he could beat her. And I explained a while ago why Majora wasn't actually on par with 18.
It really still doesn't seem like an amp to me.
And no, I don't. I would've thought her fight with Trunks and Goten in the Buu Arc showed she got stronger.
@Medeus
Goku was actually visibly struggling to escape from Tupper's hold. And like I said earlier, both Goku and a casual 18's ki blasts were shown to be equally ineffective against Zoiray.
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I was talking about base Vegeta's fight with Ribrianne. This was an episode after Goku first went Ultra Instinct, so nobody had grown in power by this point.
Not Hop, this one. This was the second time he went UIO, not the first, and he was basically on the verge of having a heart attack, and was then portrayed as roughtly equal to the other SSB level characters against Anilaza. Also, he had trouble with the base Gohan-level robots just prior to this fight.
Pacing himself? You mean like fighting base Ganos and using Super Saiyan Blue needlessly against the Trio of Danger's combined attack with Vegeta? You're right here. I actually meant Shosa, they're basically the same character to me.
She was getting fodderized and then powered up. It's portrayed as an amp and most likely is.
However, I will say there probably is enough evidence by this point to make 18 Universe level, so I'm not going to continue arguing this. Struggling against Shosa is clearly an outlier and makes no sense power-wise.
Onto a different subject, downgrading base Gohan during the Universe 6 vs. 7 arc. Gohan only trained with Piccolo to get stronger, it's not stated he fought him at his full power. On the contrary, he apparently wasn't even in fighting shape by this point. The timeframe between the two sagas was also well within a year.
It's possible that he is, because Piccolo became Universe level, but Gohan was still considered unimpressive compared to his power during the Buu arc (it could just refer to Potential Unleashed in general, though) and was quickly eclipsed by Piccolo (even after training himself) as a Super Saiyan 2.
Not Hop, this one. This was the second time he went UIO, not the first, and he was basically on the verge of having a heart attack, and was then portrayed as roughtly equal to the other SSB level characters against Anilaza. Also, he had trouble with the base Gohan-level robots just prior to this fight.
Pacing himself? You mean like fighting base Ganos and using Super Saiyan Blue needlessly against the Trio of Danger's combined attack with Vegeta? You're right here. I actually meant Shosa, they're basically the same character to me.
She was getting fodderized and then powered up. It's portrayed as an amp and most likely is.
However, I will say there probably is enough evidence by this point to make 18 Universe level, so I'm not going to continue arguing this. Struggling against Shosa is clearly an outlier and makes no sense power-wise.
Onto a different subject, downgrading base Gohan during the Universe 6 vs. 7 arc. Gohan only trained with Piccolo to get stronger, it's not stated he fought him at his full power. On the contrary, he apparently wasn't even in fighting shape by this point. The timeframe between the two sagas was also well within a year.
It's possible that he is, because Piccolo became Universe level, but Gohan was still considered unimpressive compared to his power during the Buu arc (it could just refer to Potential Unleashed in general, though) and was quickly eclipsed by Piccolo (even after training himself) as a Super Saiyan 2.
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Well, if you think there's enough evidence for 18 to be 3-A, then would it be fine to apply that at this point? Apart from one person, everyone seems to be fine or at least neutral about it.
On the topic of Gohan, it would honestly make more sense to just downgrade him, but if he's kept at 3-A, then his U6 Saga key should be changed to a Future Trunks Saga key, since he did have that fight with Goku during that saga.
On the topic of Gohan, it would honestly make more sense to just downgrade him, but if he's kept at 3-A, then his U6 Saga key should be changed to a Future Trunks Saga key, since he did have that fight with Goku during that saga.
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I wouldn't quite take every single statement about growing feeble literally. Because even Majin Vegeta compared himself to Saiyan saga Vegeta, but more so meant that in terms of passion rather than Power Level. Krillin and Gohan also both have similar statements despite not actually being weaker than Frieza saga or Buu saga respectively.
Gohan still has multiple feats on appearing similar to Goku's lower forms, and Piccolo is heavily underrated. He went from appearing even with Base Gohan to literally stomping SSJ2 Gohan for sure, but Piccolo has shown enough feats to be 3-A in U6 saga. And Goku and Vegeta initially considered choosing Gohan over Buu until there was a school related thing to attend.
So I don't think Gohan needs to be downgraded, especially not in Tournament of Power. Ultimate Gohan was almost as strong as Golden Frieza in the same vein his base form was similar to base Frieza.
Gohan still has multiple feats on appearing similar to Goku's lower forms, and Piccolo is heavily underrated. He went from appearing even with Base Gohan to literally stomping SSJ2 Gohan for sure, but Piccolo has shown enough feats to be 3-A in U6 saga. And Goku and Vegeta initially considered choosing Gohan over Buu until there was a school related thing to attend.
So I don't think Gohan needs to be downgraded, especially not in Tournament of Power. Ultimate Gohan was almost as strong as Golden Frieza in the same vein his base form was similar to base Frieza.
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Piccolo should definitely be 3-A, and I guess it's fine for U6 Saga Gohan to remain 3-A. I still think his key should be renamed to Future Trunks Saga.
Medeus, would you be fine with going ahead and upgrading 18 now, since ByAsura thinks there's enough evidence for it?
Medeus, would you be fine with going ahead and upgrading 18 now, since ByAsura thinks there's enough evidence for it?
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Okay, cool.
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I think it's more obvious evidence that the current 3-A scaling is BS and that the writers have completely abandoned it too.
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The 3-A feat is definitely concrete, however, there is a limit to how many characters can be scaled from it.
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If Basil didn't struggle against Buu, none of this would even be a problem. Despite this, a much weaker base Vegeta still scales far above him for casually demolishing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (this was ~5 years after the Buu saga) and comparing his blows to a mosquito.
@Medeus Have you managed to find the Kachi Katchin > Shin statement.
@Medeus Have you managed to find the Kachi Katchin > Shin statement.
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I haven't found the statement, but I thought it was already common knowledge that even regular Katchin is above Shin. Shin called it the strongest metal in the Universe and that nothing could break it. That was until it broke the Z Sword; the same sword that skyrocketed Base Gohan to the point where Shin acknowledged his strength as being legendary.
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I am also against 3-A 18.
In my honest opinion Goku explicitly was holding back against all opponets prior to his Jiren encounter. Also Vegeta went SSJ on Base Ribrianne but was base when he was stomping Super Ribrianne lol. The idea here should be that Goku and Vegeta did not use FP in any form honestly till there were opponents that actually pushed them consistently into those forms.
Examples:
Magetta has consistently been shown to push Vegeta to SSJ and thus deserves his 3-A rating.
but Vegeta was about to handle Frost in his Base. IIRC Goku only went SSJ against Frost to force him to use his Final Form since Frost didn't fully understand the disparity in power, also the jump from Third Form to Final Form is huge if we compare Frieza (logically his form went from anywhere from around 1,500,000 - 120,000,000 at least in the Namek Saga at FP in his final form but even assuming since Frost didn't buff up that's a 40x increase at 50% power.) So Goku would have to be superior than Frost in Base if Frost could not contend with his SSJ form. So the logic of Frost pushing Goku to SSJ is flawed.
Ribrianne and 18 DON'T deserve 3-A ratings, they did not do anything worthy of the rating. Tupper caught Goku off guard so thats not really a feat for him so 18 would not scale.
Cabba possibly scales. I personally think that Vegeta meant they were equally matched based on the suppressed power he was dishing out but you can make the argument for Cabba that the reason Vegeta tanked his SSJ form was because Vegeta mastered SSJ. But the disparity is brought back up again when Mona straight up bodies SSJ Cabba but got one shotted by Base Vegeta.
Botamo is fodder lol
Obuni should scale to 3-A he is the strongest of Universe 10 and he pushed Gohan to using his Ultimate Potential and even was holding his own, Gohan being many times above Baseline since he was comparable to SSJB Goku.
Trio De Danger are all comparable and are close in power to a Majin Buu that did not train who should be 4-A if anything. Goku and Vegeta were toying with their whole universe. Bergamo can be 3-A though due to his ability.
Caulifa and Kale scale to Goku after the Post UIS boost. They have extreme reactive power so it realistically possible for them to be 3-A eventually.
Save the obvious, non of the Pride Troppers should scale either, save maybe Kunshi since his minefield kept Hit at bay and Hit even was concerned for SSJG Goku who powered up to SSJ Blue to overpower the blast.
Overall though
Gohan, Piccolo, 17, Frieza, Vegeta and Goku are the strongest of the team and have showings that places them comfortablly in the 3-A range.
In my honest opinion Goku explicitly was holding back against all opponets prior to his Jiren encounter. Also Vegeta went SSJ on Base Ribrianne but was base when he was stomping Super Ribrianne lol. The idea here should be that Goku and Vegeta did not use FP in any form honestly till there were opponents that actually pushed them consistently into those forms.
Examples:
Magetta has consistently been shown to push Vegeta to SSJ and thus deserves his 3-A rating.
but Vegeta was about to handle Frost in his Base. IIRC Goku only went SSJ against Frost to force him to use his Final Form since Frost didn't fully understand the disparity in power, also the jump from Third Form to Final Form is huge if we compare Frieza (logically his form went from anywhere from around 1,500,000 - 120,000,000 at least in the Namek Saga at FP in his final form but even assuming since Frost didn't buff up that's a 40x increase at 50% power.) So Goku would have to be superior than Frost in Base if Frost could not contend with his SSJ form. So the logic of Frost pushing Goku to SSJ is flawed.
Ribrianne and 18 DON'T deserve 3-A ratings, they did not do anything worthy of the rating. Tupper caught Goku off guard so thats not really a feat for him so 18 would not scale.
Cabba possibly scales. I personally think that Vegeta meant they were equally matched based on the suppressed power he was dishing out but you can make the argument for Cabba that the reason Vegeta tanked his SSJ form was because Vegeta mastered SSJ. But the disparity is brought back up again when Mona straight up bodies SSJ Cabba but got one shotted by Base Vegeta.
Botamo is fodder lol
Obuni should scale to 3-A he is the strongest of Universe 10 and he pushed Gohan to using his Ultimate Potential and even was holding his own, Gohan being many times above Baseline since he was comparable to SSJB Goku.
Trio De Danger are all comparable and are close in power to a Majin Buu that did not train who should be 4-A if anything. Goku and Vegeta were toying with their whole universe. Bergamo can be 3-A though due to his ability.
Caulifa and Kale scale to Goku after the Post UIS boost. They have extreme reactive power so it realistically possible for them to be 3-A eventually.
Save the obvious, non of the Pride Troppers should scale either, save maybe Kunshi since his minefield kept Hit at bay and Hit even was concerned for SSJG Goku who powered up to SSJ Blue to overpower the blast.
Overall though
Gohan, Piccolo, 17, Frieza, Vegeta and Goku are the strongest of the team and have showings that places them comfortablly in the 3-A range.
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I agree with Matt, AKM Sama, and Awkguy regarding 18. Although, I still think the Universe 6 cast have enough reasons to be Universal. Sure SSJ1 Goku is far above Frost's final form and could have one-shotted him, but I don't think he's any weaker than Base Goku; especially not RoF saga base Goku.
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