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READ THE OP. The Main Revisions: 2 (This is a Naruto thread)
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
- Start date
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Actually, if Madara's beam travelled directly towards Naruto in a straight line, the most likely scenario would be that he dodged to the side, not that he ducked right beneath it. Even in a close up fight, you usually evade to side of an enemy punched straight at you since ducking leaves much less directions to counter attack from. It could very well be that Naruto initially dodged to the left of Madara's initial piercing beam and seeing that his attack missed initially, Madara decided to follow through with it which prompted Naruto to continue ducking his whole body to the left.
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@Zensum
No. The swing is already done, we do not see how it did it and the current assumption ignores common sense.
DB also says it's like a "Like a sharp and pointed fang ...", so your support in DB is invalid.
Yes, and that does not invalidate that he dodged the beam and only then, Madara followed him with the beam, trying to kill it, just as it did in Anime. It would even be consistent with the DB to say that both have almost the same reaction (after all, Madara react quickly after Naruto's dodge, would be almost equal proof of reaction), but that does not enter into the matter at the moment..
Shinju does not give any amp. This was discussed several times, he just gained a supposed immortality and more chakra.
It does not invalidate that the same movement could be effected to dodge a direct beam.
For the same reason Anime ... Another attempt to kill him.
And no ... Naruto dodged diagonally, if Madara wants to kill him by hitting his head, the option is to follow him with the beam.
The distance at which the rod was launched does not interfere with anything, it is not relevant, much less decisive, since even its position is identical, the only difference is that the scene continued.
Guessing and more guessing will not prove your point.
Show me Madara by casting the LF on an empty spot, basically just a few inches from Naruto's face (instead of sticking it right in the face) and then I can agree with you. Otherwise, it is only validated assumption with more assumptions.
No. The swing is already done, we do not see how it did it and the current assumption ignores common sense.
DB also says it's like a "Like a sharp and pointed fang ...", so your support in DB is invalid.
Yes, and that does not invalidate that he dodged the beam and only then, Madara followed him with the beam, trying to kill it, just as it did in Anime. It would even be consistent with the DB to say that both have almost the same reaction (after all, Madara react quickly after Naruto's dodge, would be almost equal proof of reaction), but that does not enter into the matter at the moment..
Shinju does not give any amp. This was discussed several times, he just gained a supposed immortality and more chakra.
It does not invalidate that the same movement could be effected to dodge a direct beam.
For the same reason Anime ... Another attempt to kill him.
And no ... Naruto dodged diagonally, if Madara wants to kill him by hitting his head, the option is to follow him with the beam.
The distance at which the rod was launched does not interfere with anything, it is not relevant, much less decisive, since even its position is identical, the only difference is that the scene continued.
Guessing and more guessing will not prove your point.
Show me Madara by casting the LF on an empty spot, basically just a few inches from Naruto's face (instead of sticking it right in the face) and then I can agree with you. Otherwise, it is only validated assumption with more assumptions.
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Two characaters literally staring at each other.
One of them shot a SOL beam from his mouth and swing his head.
- "Naruto dodged a head swing" .
Anyway I agree with this,you don't need to create an entire CRT with the wall of text to understand what happened in that situation.
One of them shot a SOL beam from his mouth and swing his head.
- "Naruto dodged a head swing" .
Anyway I agree with this,you don't need to create an entire CRT with the wall of text to understand what happened in that situation.
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It's a beam described to cut thats why its said to be "Like a sharp and pointed fang" like the name of the jutsu implies. This is irrelivant though. Why would Madara follow through to hit air if Naruto dodged to the side to evade the intital attack? Madara didnt follow him at all, the swing is consistently level the only one moving down is Naruto, even the entry says this is a swinging attack.MostPowerfull said:
To clarify, the tree gave him more chakra putting him in his uninjured state. He fought sage naruto initially after almost dying from Guy's attack. If he using LF for the speed, why would he use lightning dispatch beforhand a clearly slower attack like all his other moves if he was worried about Naruto's speed?
Not sure how you can see these two diferences and think the same thing occured. Why would he attempt to kill him by swinging his head if he chose to dodge to the side to evade the intial beam? It makes no sense. You're not looking at the scene correctly. By the time Madara's beam swing is already completed, in the anime the upper half of the rod anime is flung higher because it was cut first. In the manga it is close to the bottom piece because it was cut second from the swing as shown with the line when naruto dodged to the side. This isn't an assumption its whats clear to see on the scan.
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yup madara want to kill naruto but he is an idiot
even thou he has ls attack he chose to use slow attack to kill him
and even thou he want to kill naruto
he chose to give naruto more time by moving his head to the left
than launch LF
then swing it to the right to kill naruto
as he if he want him alive
yes its 100% believable that he is an idiot
even thou he has ls attack he chose to use slow attack to kill him
and even thou he want to kill naruto
he chose to give naruto more time by moving his head to the left
than launch LF
then swing it to the right to kill naruto
as he if he want him alive
yes its 100% believable that he is an idiot
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@Zensum
It is not perfectly leveled. Even if it was, it does not prove that Madara would launch the attack in the void, only to go back and hit Naruto, literally would have to ignore the common sense.
Also says "Like a sharp and pointed fang", so it can be used to pierce.
And? It does not prove any type of amp due to the absorption of Shinju. There is no evidence that the lightning launched by Madara are slow. This again proves that the current assumption ignores common sense. Because Madara did not release LF before ... I should ask him, not me, after all, anyone who saw Naruto kick a TSB at full speed, to dodge the Limbo of surprise, to react to its lightinings and still manage to surprise him, was the Madara!
No. The rod is higher because the scene has continued. It is cut first or not, it is irrelevant, it is not characterized as a different scene. And no ... This is perspective of the PoV, not the evidence of who was cut first, not the evidence of who was cut first, if it was the bandana, if it was the TSB and by logic, the first cut was TSB..
No ... There's no proof in the scan, just your guess, in which I'm waiting for you to prove and show Madara by throwing the beam into the emptiness, a few inches from Naruto's face, to go back and try to bisect it.
Anything unless proof of this, I continue with my thinking that it is best to ignore this feat.
It is not perfectly leveled. Even if it was, it does not prove that Madara would launch the attack in the void, only to go back and hit Naruto, literally would have to ignore the common sense.
Also says "Like a sharp and pointed fang", so it can be used to pierce.
And? It does not prove any type of amp due to the absorption of Shinju. There is no evidence that the lightning launched by Madara are slow. This again proves that the current assumption ignores common sense. Because Madara did not release LF before ... I should ask him, not me, after all, anyone who saw Naruto kick a TSB at full speed, to dodge the Limbo of surprise, to react to its lightinings and still manage to surprise him, was the Madara!
No. The rod is higher because the scene has continued. It is cut first or not, it is irrelevant, it is not characterized as a different scene. And no ... This is perspective of the PoV, not the evidence of who was cut first, not the evidence of who was cut first, if it was the bandana, if it was the TSB and by logic, the first cut was TSB..
No ... There's no proof in the scan, just your guess, in which I'm waiting for you to prove and show Madara by throwing the beam into the emptiness, a few inches from Naruto's face, to go back and try to bisect it.
Anything unless proof of this, I continue with my thinking that it is best to ignore this feat.
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That panel with the rod is left up to view interpretation. What's clear is that anyone can see it with their own perspective. The anime itself shows that Madara shot LF first at Naruto and he dodged it while his Rod got cut in half.
LF is a piercing attack as well. Tata literally showed us on the last thread that the literal meaning of cutting/slicing can be to pierce as well.
It also makes sense with the size of the attack, and the nature of the attack
LF is a piercing attack as well. Tata literally showed us on the last thread that the literal meaning of cutting/slicing can be to pierce as well.
It also makes sense with the size of the attack, and the nature of the attack
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Madara wasn't even facing Naruto straight on as a previous panel shows Madara already has a tilted head turned to his left which would be Naruto's right, thus a swing must be done.
Kep's comment that I have linked has scans to show as I'm on mobile, he disagreed with it having been dodged as well.
Kep's comment that I have linked has scans to show as I'm on mobile, he disagreed with it having been dodged as well.
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Perspective... And Naruto had time to ramble over Limbo . Nothing prevents Madara from looking in his face and shoot the beam, as it did in Anime.
Ignoring common sense is simply comic! Just ignore the feat.
Ignoring common sense is simply comic! Just ignore the feat.
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At this to be fair Kep isn't the only knowledgeable member and everyone literally have different perspectives. So saying one person disagreed doesn't really change anything with new arguments
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By leveled I mean the beam aligns with his head which he swings across at a uniform trajectory. Why would I prove something that didn't happen. The beam is swung after it leaves his mouth. Yea but we are talking about the swing not the beam. The entry boasts the swing is impossible to dodge, cause thats what occured in the manga.MostPowerfull said:
The difference between fighting a badly injured Madara and a fully healed one should be obvious. It's obviously slow/slower considering its lighting and Sasuke could TP and Naruto could toss his rod before it even got to their position. If the speed mattered why wouldn't he use his fastest attack if he wanted to tag them instead of all his other slower attacks which have no chance in hitting Naruto. Clearly this thought process "why would he use a head move against a guy who has consistently reacted to his attacks" is something Madara doesn't care about.
The scene isn't continued look 1 , 2 . Pay attention to the position of the beam which is complete and the position of the upper half of the rod. How are you agreeing there are differences but then saying it doesn't matter cause they are characterized as the same scene. The fact they exist means the anime cant be used as reference. The PoV doesn't change sequence of events shown by the lines.
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Did you just admit that you are using an assumption for your argument?
After all, either he threw the laser into nothing and pulled his head off in an attempt to hit Naruto and bisect him (who would ignore common sense and you would have to prove it), or he released the laser from his mouth directly into Naruto and then moved triyng to hit Naruto (which is not shown in the manga).
I'm not going to answer DB's hypetext.
Madara had already recovered, her thinking a personal ramble.
Does not prove that Lightning is slower, proves that both are fast.
As I said, ask him, it was he who witnessed many of Naruto's feats, why he would be stupid enough to shake his head with his quickest attack and deadly enough to cut a TSB, that's for you to prove, not I am the one who is ignoring common sense. I'm looking forward to when you prove what you're saying and let go of your assumptions.
The scene continued, man! The position of the rod is the same and the scene continued ... It does not matter, in this part!
The PoV completely refutes the nonsense that lines indicate movements of something, which are used to support an assumption that they can not prove and not prove who has cut first. As I said, these movement points do not prove anything about Madara throwing a laser into the void, because ... Because yes!
After all, either he threw the laser into nothing and pulled his head off in an attempt to hit Naruto and bisect him (who would ignore common sense and you would have to prove it), or he released the laser from his mouth directly into Naruto and then moved triyng to hit Naruto (which is not shown in the manga).
I'm not going to answer DB's hypetext.
Madara had already recovered, her thinking a personal ramble.
Does not prove that Lightning is slower, proves that both are fast.
As I said, ask him, it was he who witnessed many of Naruto's feats, why he would be stupid enough to shake his head with his quickest attack and deadly enough to cut a TSB, that's for you to prove, not I am the one who is ignoring common sense. I'm looking forward to when you prove what you're saying and let go of your assumptions.
The scene continued, man! The position of the rod is the same and the scene continued ... It does not matter, in this part!
The PoV completely refutes the nonsense that lines indicate movements of something, which are used to support an assumption that they can not prove and not prove who has cut first. As I said, these movement points do not prove anything about Madara throwing a laser into the void, because ... Because yes!
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But using Occam's Razor ...
We have 2 points, where basically we have:
• One side needs to prove that Naruto has dodged the laser.
^They can not really do this without suppositions, however ... They have in their favor the anime and common sense.
• The other side needs to prove Madara cast the LF into the void, move the head and tried to bisect Naruto.
^ Again, they can not do this without suppositions, however ... They must completely ignore common sense and assume that he would throw the laser within a few inches of Naruto's face (instead of throwing the bundle into his face quickly) or assume that he would turn his face to finally release the jutsu (which would give Naruto more time to react).
Basically, the two points are these. And particularly, although we do not agree with either of them, we have an unknown against literally, a great absurdity.
We have 2 points, where basically we have:
• One side needs to prove that Naruto has dodged the laser.
^They can not really do this without suppositions, however ... They have in their favor the anime and common sense.
• The other side needs to prove Madara cast the LF into the void, move the head and tried to bisect Naruto.
^ Again, they can not do this without suppositions, however ... They must completely ignore common sense and assume that he would throw the laser within a few inches of Naruto's face (instead of throwing the bundle into his face quickly) or assume that he would turn his face to finally release the jutsu (which would give Naruto more time to react).
Basically, the two points are these. And particularly, although we do not agree with either of them, we have an unknown against literally, a great absurdity.
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@MostPowerfull
If we reduce your Razor to its absolute furthest we iterate to the following:
Pro-lightspeed - Must rely on the anime/not direct canon material, ignore certain motion lines
Anti-lightspeed - Must rely on Databook definition of the attack for how it functions in conjunction with motion lines
Honestly, at simplest terms I think anti-lightspeed has the win. The Databook is a given definition and not a presumption, so we have simply interpolation of data (motion line).
As IMade showed, after all, Madara's head is already tilted in the top left panel prior to throwing out the Light Fang Jutsu.
If we reduce your Razor to its absolute furthest we iterate to the following:
Pro-lightspeed - Must rely on the anime/not direct canon material, ignore certain motion lines
Anti-lightspeed - Must rely on Databook definition of the attack for how it functions in conjunction with motion lines
Honestly, at simplest terms I think anti-lightspeed has the win. The Databook is a given definition and not a presumption, so we have simply interpolation of data (motion line).
As IMade showed, after all, Madara's head is already tilted in the top left panel prior to throwing out the Light Fang Jutsu.
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@Xulrev
Hmm... Not!
Pro-SoL = Anime + Common Sense + Databook + Assumptions of movement lines (opinion)
Anti-SoL = Assumptions about lines of movement (opinion) + Databook + ....
No ... I would say that one is more useless than the other, however, Anti-SoL stands out as an absurd without size. DB also proves that it is done to pierce as much as to bisect, ignoring this will not help them...
Lines prove absolutely nothing beyond the exceptional headcanon. I'm waiting so far, the moment where Madara threw the laser into the void, just to shake his head against Naruto, forgetting everything that Naruto had done before. It's comic!
And I showed that Madara could have adjusted, as it did in Anime. Like I said to Kep and here, and I'll repeat it again ... Do not stand perpendicular to each other, it's not decisive! Ignoring this will not help any of you.
Hmm... Not!
Pro-SoL = Anime + Common Sense + Databook + Assumptions of movement lines (opinion)
Anti-SoL = Assumptions about lines of movement (opinion) + Databook + ....
No ... I would say that one is more useless than the other, however, Anti-SoL stands out as an absurd without size. DB also proves that it is done to pierce as much as to bisect, ignoring this will not help them...
Lines prove absolutely nothing beyond the exceptional headcanon. I'm waiting so far, the moment where Madara threw the laser into the void, just to shake his head against Naruto, forgetting everything that Naruto had done before. It's comic!
And I showed that Madara could have adjusted, as it did in Anime. Like I said to Kep and here, and I'll repeat it again ... Do not stand perpendicular to each other, it's not decisive! Ignoring this will not help any of you.
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Ham? Why are you putting words in my mouth, my friend? Anime is not a assumption, LMAO!
I agree with this literal idiocy, assuming that Madara is a complete idiot, to simply ignore all that Naruto did and move his head instead of using the attack speed...
At the very least, I would have to be an imbecile. So, no ... Anti-SoL is light years dumber than Pro-SoL, although both are bad, at completely different levels.
Pro-SoL uses much less assumptions and a "canon" supported by that wiki, and above all, it does not attack common sense and logic.. So, argue with facts and less meaningless assumptions.
I agree with this literal idiocy, assuming that Madara is a complete idiot, to simply ignore all that Naruto did and move his head instead of using the attack speed...
At the very least, I would have to be an imbecile. So, no ... Anti-SoL is light years dumber than Pro-SoL, although both are bad, at completely different levels.
Pro-SoL uses much less assumptions and a "canon" supported by that wiki, and above all, it does not attack common sense and logic.. So, argue with facts and less meaningless assumptions.
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That the anime is canon is, itself, a 'meaningless assumption' as you choose to call it. It relies upon the idea that the manga is non-contradictory to the anime's feat, which is a recursive argument (to prove the anime's being canon relies upon the manga agreeing with it, and the only way the manga agrees with it is if the anime is canon).
It is not feasible to claim the anime as canon ipso facto, therefore any assertion of its being canon is a presumption. It needs evidence that is not recursive. None exists, from what I've seen, since the motion lines quite clearly indicate otherwise.
No, I'm afraid your stated Razor is still very much so correct, and very much so Anti-SoL favoring.
It is not feasible to claim the anime as canon ipso facto, therefore any assertion of its being canon is a presumption. It needs evidence that is not recursive. None exists, from what I've seen, since the motion lines quite clearly indicate otherwise.
No, I'm afraid your stated Razor is still very much so correct, and very much so Anti-SoL favoring.
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But it is the Wikia that accept it as a complement/canon. You need to do a CRT with it and get it over with (which, by the way, has my full support)!
And yes ... Anime is not contradictory with Manga, unless you prove that Madara threw the laser into the void and tried to bisect Naruto with a nod (knowing of the deeds of Naruto, kek), instead of taking guesses ridicules that ignore common sense, which literally can be interpreted in another way, as I did here myself, M3X, Comicvine and etc, etc, etc.
Yes, nothing on the Lines of Motion proves neither A nor B.
Nothing in the Manga proves that Madara launched the attack in the void and nothing proves that Naruto dodge from the Laser.
Pro-SoL is winning just because it has an add-on accepted by Wikia and good old common sense / logic at its side.
And yes ... Anime is not contradictory with Manga, unless you prove that Madara threw the laser into the void and tried to bisect Naruto with a nod (knowing of the deeds of Naruto, kek), instead of taking guesses ridicules that ignore common sense, which literally can be interpreted in another way, as I did here myself, M3X, Comicvine and etc, etc, etc.
Yes, nothing on the Lines of Motion proves neither A nor B.
Nothing in the Manga proves that Madara launched the attack in the void and nothing proves that Naruto dodge from the Laser.
Pro-SoL is winning just because it has an add-on accepted by Wikia and good old common sense / logic at its side.
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Or it's a tiny beam and he aimed to the right of Naruto due to his face being tilted previously like the manga shows and Naruto dodges the swing by ducking left. Thats not hype text, thats part of the sentance we used to put it at light speed in the first place lol.MostPowerfull said:
Madara recovered after he absored the tree. How does that prove dispatch is fast when it failed to hit anything? Your missing the point, anything short of his quickest attack is a wasted effort (the rest of his arsenal) according to your logic.
Why are you saying the scene continued when the beam/swing is no longer moving but still visible? There is no instance in the anime where Madara's swing is completed and the rod is close to the bottom like it is in the manga. The lines obviously indicate the movements of something, thats why they are drawn... We can see by the line that the rod is cut second because the beam goes right to left.
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As said every time this was brought up the head swing is clearly what was dodged
I'm not sure why ant told you to make this, nothing changed besides you guys managing to get lf accepted as light speed which doesn't change the fact that the beam was never dodged
I'm not sure why ant told you to make this, nothing changed besides you guys managing to get lf accepted as light speed which doesn't change the fact that the beam was never dodged
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Tryna see why people think that's Naruto head band. It's literally been shown before Naruto moving at high speed and his chakra flares coming from his head band being left behind
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Hmmm...it might be the headswing here.
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This scene is very clearly in a perspective. Those headbands straps are several inches BEHIND Naruto's head.
Another thing is that the movement lines for the beam clearly started on the staff, a clear implication that Madara shot straight at Naruto's face and broke the staff that way.
Another thing is that the movement lines for the beam clearly started on the staff, a clear implication that Madara shot straight at Naruto's face and broke the staff that way.
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This is another case of camera perspective lol. Madara was clearly in front of Naruto. Adding lines linear to their position in that camera shot is completely nonsensical considering their line of sight was in a staright line (Madara tilting his head up slightly, and Naruto looking down).Zensum said:
KIshi wanted to show Naruto's posture as he attacks Madara, thus he drew it that way.
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Except the Razor, when applied, would reasonably showcase Naruto dodging the swing since that is how the attack is made and how it is presented on-panel in conjunction with all present evidence.
Simply asserting the Razor benefits the side you concur with does not make it so. The headbands being cut is a powerful nail in the coffin as is the direct, explicit linework indicating the staff to be bifurcated by the swing and not a head-on beam.
What happens on-panel supports the notion that it was a swing. We need to rely solely upon off-panel work (anime filler) to make a remotely weak case supporting the beam theory.
Simply asserting the Razor benefits the side you concur with does not make it so. The headbands being cut is a powerful nail in the coffin as is the direct, explicit linework indicating the staff to be bifurcated by the swing and not a head-on beam.
What happens on-panel supports the notion that it was a swing. We need to rely solely upon off-panel work (anime filler) to make a remotely weak case supporting the beam theory.
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This is exactly what happened in that scene.TataHakai said:
Madara is a tactical genius. He isn't tilting his head to the side just to prep his beam when he can just fire it and peirce Naruto's head straight up, and then swing his head for added effect. It just doesn't make sense.
Citing the techniques description that it supposedly only slices makes for a poor argument.
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Try seeing it in a perspective, because it's supposed to be seen in a perspective.Xulrev said:
The headband straps are behind Naruto's head, which also has considerable distance away from the rod. Also, the rod was already tilted in that scene because of Naruto's dodge. Originally, Naruto held the rod straight. Which makes the point in which the beam hits the rod more or less linear with the headband.
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It's not a poor argument when it's what occurred on-panel. The idea that the beam was an attack and dodged is not present in the manga whatsoever, it's moreso akin to headcanon than anything feasible.
Further, the very idea of the headwing is ludicrous: you have to presume Madara is a genius, why then would he attempt to physically catch up to someone with FTL reactions and even utilize a lightspeed attack in the first place whilst in melee range with his Limbo clone already there at the ready?
Essentially, to claim it occurred the way some people want to believe it did, you have to accept that Madara is legitimately mentally deficient and wanted to utilize an attack much, much slower than he himself is whilst in melee range, and further, that for some reason he led into this attack with.....lightning, of all things, to get it all started even.
This would be akin to Fuhrer King Bradley holding a Luger in his belt, a sword in a hand, being 4 feet from his opponent and deciding to fire the Luger....when he can legitimately move faster than the bullet leaving the chamber. It makes no narrative sense, it makes no in-character sense, and it makes no meta-sense.
Further, the very idea of the headwing is ludicrous: you have to presume Madara is a genius, why then would he attempt to physically catch up to someone with FTL reactions and even utilize a lightspeed attack in the first place whilst in melee range with his Limbo clone already there at the ready?
Essentially, to claim it occurred the way some people want to believe it did, you have to accept that Madara is legitimately mentally deficient and wanted to utilize an attack much, much slower than he himself is whilst in melee range, and further, that for some reason he led into this attack with.....lightning, of all things, to get it all started even.
This would be akin to Fuhrer King Bradley holding a Luger in his belt, a sword in a hand, being 4 feet from his opponent and deciding to fire the Luger....when he can legitimately move faster than the bullet leaving the chamber. It makes no narrative sense, it makes no in-character sense, and it makes no meta-sense.
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