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RE: Pokemon Tier 2 Hax Additions

GyroNutz

GyroNutz

VS Battles
Administrator
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This thread was closed before I was able to respond. I do actually largely agree with the changes, though not so much with how it has been applied.

Nigh-Omniscience: This was the only part I couldn't find any real evidence for in the document. Besides Uxie and Arceus, none of the creation or lake trios have any evidence for this level of intelligence. Being nigh-omnipresent, or the embodiment of time are not legitimate justifications for Nigh Omniscience. Dialga, Palkia, Mesprit etc, have all failed to demonstrate nigh-omniscience on numerous occasions, and with nothing really pointing to them having it, this should be removed. Looking through the thread, the only argument for it being added was that this was "already on the profile", which is also untrue in some cases - profiles like Azelf's did not have Nigh-Omniscience prior to this CRT.

Citations: None of the abilities (bar Dialga nulling time abilities lmao) that I can see have been backed up with evidence. This is especially worrying when considering the types of abilities that were added - Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) is not an ability that can existon a profile without evidence. For abilities such as Giratina's Type 4 Acausality, I feel like a more reliable translation, or at least a more specific one, should be given than a lengthy gamefaqs post. Other than this, the evidence is already in the docs so this shouldn't be much of a problem.

Immortality: This is more of a separate question - as shown in the google doc, Palkia is described as a being that is "Alive, yet not alive" on the Eterna Statue, and the original story implies that Dialga and Palkia are not living:

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.
The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep..."

EDIT: The "Alive, yet not alive" quote has been clarified as a misinterpretation - the original Japanese version talks instead about how space will always be there independent if there's something alive in that space.

The Lake Trio are specified as living things, whereas Dialga and Palkia are purposefully given a different specification (two beings). Is this sufficient evidence to say that Palkia and Dialga are not bound by conventional life and death for Immortality (Type 5)?

TL;DR, Nigh-Omniscience should be removed from all relevant profiles (bar Uxie's and Arceus') and all abilities added should be backed up with evidence on the profiles themselves
 
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There's also this statement about the Distortion World in Turnback Cave (although quite vague and ambiguous) which implies that life and death have little meaning there or are practically the same thing:

"This is... That where life sparkles... That where life has faded... A place where two worlds overlap..."

I'm not so sure if it's useful though.
 
GyroNutz said:
Immortality: This is more of a separate question - as shown in the google doc, Palkia is described as a being that is "Alive, yet not alive" on the Eterna Statue, and the original story implies that Dialga and Palkia are not living:
Click to expand...
This is something that I'll explain more on my blog, but the original Japanese text is more clear and was about how, anything be it alive or not alive, flows in space to arrive into the same space. So wasn't about Palkia, but how space will always be there independent if there's something alive in that space.
 
Alright. Is the original story different in Japanese too?
 
GyroNutz said:
Alright. Is the original story different in Japanese too?
Click to expand...
Not that much from what I can remember. There's one interesting change due to word choice in Japanese, but that is more due to me wanting to go super deep while explaining Pokémon. But no big changes. In fact most of the script seems to be well translated and some differences aren't that important. Even the "Alive, Yet not alive" is just about the game being a bit vague and the Japanese version is more clear about it (Even more in the manga that changes some hiranaga and putting a few kanji). But no big changes from what I could see (Except the manga, that is a big thing that I'll touch in the blog lol)
 
I think Type 2 CM is already backed from CT/LT predating the multiverse due to them having created it and thus the concepts of space-time, matter etc in it.
 
I think they mean backing as in scans. Though I do like to add that a lot of profiles have stuff like Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 and similar powers without even brackets explaining what they are there for or do, never mind scans.
 
Everything12 said:
I think they mean backing as in scans. Though I do like to add that a lot of profiles have stuff like Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 and similar powers without even brackets explaining what they are there for or do, never mind scans.
Click to expand...
Yeah, is pretty much a wiki-wide issue rather than just Pokémon. Also, you can already get how is Type 2 from checking also the AP part
 
Yeah other profiles have those issues, I just don't want our Pokemon profiles to be among those. Linking the scans from the AP section under Conceptual Manipulation should be sufficient.
 
GyroNutz said:
Yeah other profiles have those issues, I just don't want our Pokemon profiles to be among those. Linking the scans from the AP section under Conceptual Manipulation should be sufficient.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be redundant putting them 2 times in the same profile?

Also, the reason why they're currently nigh-omniscient is because they are each a concept that shapes the multiverse (except Giratina who's outside it), meaning that they have to be all-knowing about things related to their concept
 
Heck, the reason why I put the Concept Erasure scans in the AP section is due of proving that they're not just Low 2-C as many would try to say without them, as the Palkia one clearly states that it can mess with all the dimensions/universes. Others without context are supportive at best and can lead to Low 2-C.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Wouldn't it be redundant putting them 2 times in the same profile?
Click to expand...
Not really. People who go to the profile to see why they have conceptual erasure won't look at the AP section to find out, and shouldn't really be expected to either.

StrymULTRA said:
Also, the reason why they're currently nigh-omniscient is because they are each a concept that shapes the multiverse (except Giratina who's outside it), meaning that they have to be all-knowing about things related to their concept
Click to expand...
Knowing everything about willpower, or space, or anti-matter, isn't the same thing as knowing nearly everything there is to know. They need more evidence than simply existing as a concept.
 
I'm ok with removing Nigh-Omniscience from Azelf/Mesprit/Palkia/Dialga, although it should be made clear that these pokemon have a very high level of knowledge about reality, considering that both Dialga and Palkia are able to recreate all the things in the universe with their minds and such.
 
By the way, should we add a justification for Arceus' and CT/LT's Reality Warping ability?
 
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GyroNutz said:
Not really. People who go to the profile to see why they have conceptual erasure won't look at the AP section to find out, and shouldn't really be expected to either.
Click to expand...
A thing like

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Was about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

?
NeoZex6399 said:
By the way, should we add a justification for Arceus' and CT/LT's Reality Warping ability?
Click to expand...
They can warp space time and Reality as you can see in resistances, so not really
 
I know, it is basically impossible to question their ability to alter reality, but perhaps it should be pointed out that they are very good at it.
 
Checked better, and there's the whole "Dialga/Palkia distorting everything" animation, I don't think that just screenshots can be enough for it.
 
Right away, im gonna say I fully disagree with removing nigh-omniscience for the reasons in the OP. How do you demonstrate "knowing nearly everything there is to know?" That's literally a gray area since the line between "almost knowing everything" and "knowing everything" isn't defined. So im failing to see how them demonstrating, or not demonstrating it, is any reason to remove it.

And quite honestly, them being what they govern should be plenty of reason to keep it. Being the time that makes up the cosmology, a cosmology thats now infinite mind you, means that you are aware of what happens through the past, present, and future, because you are said past, present and future. And Dialga is clearly capable of knowing what happens throughout time (such as the exact moment in time when Arceus was betrayed by damos and when to send Ash and company back to stop said event from ever happening), and events within the multiverse (Became aware of Arceus attacking the pokemon world and immediately came to intervene) so there's no reason to think him being all of time through an infinite cosmology isn't enough to keep nigh-omniscience.

Not to mention, nigh omniscience isn't as hard to get as you think it is. We have, and still do, give the intelligence rating for less reasoning than what Dialga and the others here have. Some who have precog capable of seeing countless/infinite futures allows them to have nigh omniscience, and if they are able to get the rating, someone who is literally time itself should most definitely qualify to keep it.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Right away, im gonna say I fully disagree with removing nigh-omniscience for the reasons in the OP. How do you demonstrate "knowing nearly everything there is to know?" That's literally a gray area since the line between "almost knowing everything" and "knowing everything" isn't defined. So im failing to see how them demonstrating, or not demonstrating it, is any reason to remove it.

And quite honestly, them being what they govern should be plenty of reason to keep it. Being the time that makes up the cosmology, a cosmology thats now infinite mind you, means that you are aware of what happens through the past, present, and future, because you are said past, present and future. And Dialga is clearly capable of knowing what happens throughout time (such as the exact moment in time when Arceus was betrayed by damos and when to send Ash and company back to stop said event from ever happening), and events within the multiverse (Became aware of Arceus attacking the pokemon world and immediately came to intervene) so there's no reason to think him being all of time through an infinite cosmology isn't enough to keep nigh-omniscience.

Not to mention, nigh omniscience isn't as hard to get as you think it is. We have, and still do, give the intelligence rating for less reasoning than what Dialga and the others here have. Some who have precog capable of seeing countless/infinite futures allows them to have nigh omniscience, and if they are able to get the rating, someone who is literally time itself should most definitely qualify to keep it.
Click to expand...
Also this but for Palkia being Space itself since that means he was there when it happened, right?
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Also this but for Palkia being Space itself since that means he was there when it happened, right?
Click to expand...
Yep. Especially since it's proven space in Pokemon is 4-D, and like Dialga, Palkia is also aware of events or circumstances that happen in the multiverse.

It knew when Arceus started attacking, and like Diagla, immediately came to intervene. And when Dialga was captured by Arceus's portal in the movie, Palkia immediately came in to save it.
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life

I understand why Palkia and Dialga shouldn't have Nigh-Omniscience removed, but should Azelf and Mesprit still have that? Also, considering what you said, Giratina being able to look upon the Pokémon World from the Distortion World, knowing Cryus' attempt to rewrite the reality from the DW and other stuffs that are in its profile shouldn't be counted as Nigh-Omniscience or am I wrong?
 
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Enryu_The_Red_Tower said:
@ProfessorKukui4Life

I understand why Palkia and Dialga shouldn't have Nigh-Omniscience removed, but should Azelf and Mesprit still have that? Also, considering what you said, Giratina being able to look upon the Pokémon World from the Distortion World, knowing Cryus' attempt to rewrite the reality from the DW and other stuffs that are in its profile shouldn't be counted as Nigh-Omniscience or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Right I forgot about the Lake Trio -Uxie. Hmm...Azelf and Mesprit are....debatable to say the least. But it would seem very strange that their intelligence, or the aspect of the spirit they govern, isn't at least comparable in Intelligence to Uxie. But that depends on what you'd take infinite willpower and emotion to be compared to Knowledge.

Tho yes, the creation trio definitely shouldn't lose it, and that point on Giratina (that I admittedly forgot) is even more evidence of why they should keep it.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Right away, im gonna say I fully disagree with removing nigh-omniscience for the reasons in the OP. How do you demonstrate "knowing nearly everything there is to know?" That's literally a gray area since the line between "almost knowing everything" and "knowing everything" isn't defined. So im failing to see how them demonstrating, or not demonstrating it, is any reason to remove it.
Click to expand...
Very simply, with statements that support it. Nigh-Omniscience isn't measured by how much a character knows, but rather how much they don't know compared to true omniscience. If there are several separate instances where a character is shown not to know something, chances are that they're not nigh-omniscient. Not like it's been stated in the first place.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Dialga is clearly capable of knowing what happens throughout time (such as the exact moment in time when Arceus was betrayed by damos and when to send Ash and company back to stop said event from ever happening), and events within the multiverse (Became aware of Arceus attacking the pokemon world and immediately came to intervene) so there's no reason to think him being all of time through an infinite cosmology isn't enough to keep nigh-omniscience.
Click to expand...
Shame Dialga didn't have the foresight to know the cause of his and Palkia's dimensions clashing, or the effects of their conflict over Alamos town. Arceus waking up to enter the main world caused shockwaves across the dimensions, so I'd be surprised if Dialga and Palkia didn't know that something was up.

You can't just extrapolate omnipresence over space-time and abstract existence as a non-knowledge-related concept to say that a character has nigh-omniscience. If you want to use other profiles as an argument, then name one that actually gets nigh-omniscience for this reason without actual explicit statements.

Enryu_The_Red_Tower said:
I understand why Palkia and Dialga shouldn't have Nigh-Omniscience removed, but should Azelf and Mesprit still have that? Also, considering what you said, Giratina being able to look upon the Pokémon World from the Distortion World, knowing Cryus' attempt to rewrite the reality from the DW and other stuffs that are in its profile shouldn't be counted as Nigh-Omniscience or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
No, they shouldn't. The concept of willpower doesn't translate to having the same level of knowledge as the concept of knowledge. The fact that Giratina has to actively watch over Spear Pillar should demonstrate that it doesn't know when these things will happen in advance.
 
GyroNutz said:
Very simply, with statements that support it. Nigh-Omniscience isn't measured by how much a character knows, but rather how much they don't know compared to true omniscience. If there are several separate instances where a character is shown not to know something, chances are that they're not nigh-omniscient. Not like it's been stated in the first place.
Click to expand...
And here therein lies the issue with this argument: shown. Your expecting a group of beings, whose appearances are more rare than someone winning the lottery, to know something when the moments within said appearances in the franchise do not speak about their intelligence. And even within those small appearances, these guys are shown to be aware of things that are absolutely not common knowledge or easily accessible to others. Such as precise moments throughout history, activity across different universes, and literally being able to see said events across universes. What more is needed besides examples?

Meanwhile, the evidence that exists for nigh-omniscience in the first place is given by what basic common sense entails for us already without the need for anything more. Dialga is time, meaning he is the past, present, and future across an infinite-multiversal cosmology. Same for Palkia with space and Giratina being able to witness countless different events and circumstances across the multiverse from within the distortion world. We don't need a statement to give us what their roles, and what they have been able to show, is able to give to us.
GyroNutz said:
Shame Dialga didn't have the foresight to know the cause of his and Palkia's dimensions clashing, or the effects of their conflict over Alamos town.
Click to expand...
And again, not knowing something is not at all a counter against a rating that literally leaves room for a character to....not know something? This isn't as if we are arguing they are omniscient when they clearly aren't. There's obviously activity that they aren't able to be aware of, but that doesn't mean that nigh-omniscience becomes an impossibility from that, especially when the entire point of nigh-omniscience is just that. Knowing almost everything. And the extent of what someone knows, and doesn't knows, differs across fiction.

On top of that, you're point on these guys not knowing those things is pure speculation, and irrelevant to the point of those events. Palkia for one most definitely knew of their effects on Alamos Town as it immediately restored it when Ash complained to what those 2 did in said town. And there's absolutely nothing that says they weren't aware of Arceus pushing their dimensions together either.

Dialga and Palkia fought each other because the events of their dimensions being pushed together made both think one was invading the other's territory. Regardless of who caused it, did not change that fact. So them fighting each other as a result of the dimensions clashing doesn't mean they weren't aware of who caused it.
GyroNutz said:
Arceus waking up to enter the main world caused shockwaves across the dimensions, so I'd be surprised if Dialga and Palkia didn't know that something was up.
Click to expand...
Him physically entering the pokemon world and attacking Michina Town didn't however. They intervened when a raging Arceus unleashed Judgement spams on the town and Ash and company.

GyroNutz said:
You can't just extrapolate omnipresence over space-time and abstract existence as a non-knowledge-related concept to say that a character has nigh-omniscience. If you want to use other profiles as an argument, then name one that actually gets nigh-omniscience for this reason without actual explicit statements.
Click to expand...
And why the hell not? No offense, but I shouldn't even need to bring up other profiles here when you haven't even done the job of actually explaining why this method shouldn't grant nigh-omniscience in the first place Gyro. And I for one certainly disagree that it doesn't when it should.

If you literally are everything that makes up x, your going to be aware of the y events that happen within it. And these guys have already shown to do the latter on some level. Not knowing certain things, particularly when involving their creator if nothing else, is not an excuse to remove the rating from them.
 
About the scans, I got a nice proof (all of these for Avatar keys ofc):

Dialga/Palkia: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Was about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

Giratina: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Should be the same as Dialga and Palkia, who were about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

Arceus: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Upscaled from Dialga and Palkia, were about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

Cyrus should also get it too:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Used the power of Dialga or Palkia to reset his universe in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)
 
About Type 4 Acausality, I got also this scan which says that the Distortion World even distorces common knowledge, making it being Type 4 even more solid, and thus making it a straight-up Type 4 acausality than just a "possibly" rating.
 
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