RE: Pokemon Tier 2 Hax Additions

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Ehh that sounds like a reach. That scan is incredibly vague.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ehh that sounds like a reach. That scan is incredibly vague.

Guess that "possibly" should remain then smh

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guess that "possibly" should remain then smh

Yeah lets not try and stretch it. Possibly is good enough as is.

 

[NeoZex6399]

"Common knowledge" is probably synonymous with logic or common sense, considering what PMF says about the distortion world.

ポケモン四大ミステリー | ポケモンミステリーファイル | ポケモンだいすきクラブ

「ポケモンだいすきクラブ」がお届けする「ポケモンミステリーファイル〜あなたの知らない？ポケモンの世界〜」特集だよ！

www.pokemon.jp

Gamefaqs translation:
-"There is another dimension called the Distortion World." The Distortion World is said to be another world on the underside of this one. A strange dimensional space in which this world's logic doesn't apply. Time doesn't flow, and space is unfixed. And it's said that in this mysterious world, the legendary Pokemon Giratina resides."

Deepl translation:
-"It is said that there is another dimension in this world called the "broken world. The "broken world" is said to exist on the other side of the world, in a different dimension where the common sense of this world does not apply. Time does not flow there, and the space is said to be unstable. It is also said that the legendary Pokémon Giratina lives in this mysterious world."

 

[NeoZex6399]

I think it is safe to assume that the causality of the Distortion World is different, if the logic of our world does not apply.

 

[NeoZex6399]

bump

 

[NeoZex6399]

bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Up to now it was agreed that concept manip needs to have links to back it. Nigh-Omnipresence removal seemed rejected tho

 

[GyroNutz]

And here therein lies the issue with this argument: shown. Your expecting a group of beings, whose appearances are more rare than someone winning the lottery, to know something when the moments within said appearances in the franchise do not speak about their intelligence.

Meanwhile, the evidence that exists for nigh-omniscience in the first place is given by what basic common sense entails for us already without the need for anything more. Dialga is time, meaning he is the past, present, and future across an infinite-multiversal cosmology. Same for Palkia with space and Giratina being able to witness countless different events and circumstances across the multiverse from within the distortion world. We don't need a statement to give us what their roles, and what they have been able to show, is able to give to us.

A lack of appearances doesn't make up for a lack of evidence. And that's a gross exaggeration - the plot of several games, three movies, an anime arc, etc are based off of the Creation Trio. They come from the games with the most lore of any main series Pokemon game. As much as you try to make Dialga's abstract existence sound impressive, it does not grant an unrelated ability.

And again, not knowing something is not at all a counter against a rating that literally leaves room for a character to....not know something? This isn't as if we are arguing they are omniscient when they clearly aren't. There's obviously activity that they aren't able to be aware of, but that doesn't mean that nigh-omniscience becomes an impossibility from that, especially when the entire point of nigh-omniscience is just that. Knowing almost everything. And the extent of what someone knows, and doesn't knows, differs across fiction.

You claimed that Dialga being time would grant it knowledge of all events that happen throughout time, I showed clearly why this isn't the case. Beyond that, no reason remains for them to have nigh-omniscience beyond a few supposed "precise events" that Dialga knew about, which isn't evidence for an infinite amount of knowledge. And btw, nigh-omniscience would grant (beyond) infinite amounts of knowledge, since it's all knowledge bar a few specific limitations (commonly what a higher power would explicitly withhold from them). Infinite - finite = infinite.

On top of that, you're point on these guys not knowing those things is pure speculation, and irrelevant to the point of those events. Palkia for one most definitely knew of their effects on Alamos Town as it immediately restored it when Ash complained to what those 2 did in said town. And there's absolutely nothing that says they weren't aware of Arceus pushing their dimensions together either.

Dialga and Palkia fought each other because the events of their dimensions being pushed together made both think one was invading the other's territory. Regardless of who caused it, did not change that fact. So them fighting each other as a result of the dimensions clashing doesn't mean they weren't aware of who caused it.

After it was pointed out, and the cast specifically asked Palkia to restore Alamos town. Also, you do realise the contradiction in what you said right? They wouldn't have fought each other if they knew neither was to blame for their dimensions clashing together, and that this wasn't an attempt from either one to invade the other's territory.

And why the hell not? No offense, but I shouldn't even need to bring up other profiles here when you haven't even done the job of actually explaining why this method shouldn't grant nigh-omniscience in the first place Gyro. And I for one certainly disagree that it doesn't when it should.

If you literally are everything that makes up x, your going to be aware of the y events that happen within it. And these guys have already shown to do the latter on some level. Not knowing certain things, particularly when involving their creator if nothing else, is not an excuse to remove the rating from them.

First of all, calm down.

Second of all, you brought up other profiles in the first place, yet when I request you to show a profile actually relevant to this case, it's too much to ask?

Third of all, the burden of proof isn't on me. You need to explain why existing as time is remotely related to nigh-omniscience. Existing everywhere meaning that you know everything is an extrapolation without explicit statements. It could simply work more as being in a giant library - you have access to every event that has ever happened, but that doesn't mean you've memorized every book in that library. Finally, more specific to Pokemon cosmology, the Creation Trio explicitly doesn't exist everywhere. The distortion world, Arceus' realm and Palkia/Dialga's realms respectively exist without Dialga/Palkia, with the Distortion world being accepted, afaik, to make up around half of the Pokemon cosmology.

Up to now it was agreed that concept manip needs to have links to back it. Nigh-Omnipresence removal seemed rejected tho

I'd prefer if this had staff evaluation before being rejected/approved. Tagging @DarkDragonMedeus, @Everything12 and @Executor_N0 since they participated in the thread already, plus @The_real_cal_howard and @Starter_Pack

 

[Everything12]

I guess I agree with GyroNutz on the topic of Nigh-Omniscience, and if no one has any complaints on StrymULTRA's proposed scans to be added to the profiles then I'm fine with them.

 

[GyroNutz]

Oh yeah, the scans look good to me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I've already added them yeah, so they can stop questioning

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A lack of appearances doesn't make up for a lack of evidence. And that's a gross exaggeration - the plot of several games, three movies, an anime arc, etc are based off of the Creation Trio. They come from the games with the most lore of any main series Pokemon game. As much as you try to make Dialga's abstract existence sound impressive, it does not grant an unrelated ability.

Based off and actually appearing are 2 different things. Regardless, that still doesn't debunk the actual points I have brought up for this, which isn't a gross exaggeration.

Seeing infinite events across an infinite cosmology for being what makes up time, space, and the distortion world being able to do the same thing is enough for Nigh-Omniscience. And this isn't speculation when this even is blatantly shown to us as being the case with the trio.

You claimed that Dialga being time would grant it knowledge of all events that happen throughout time, I showed clearly why this isn't the case.

You kinda didn't.

Beyond that, no reason remains for them to have nigh-omniscience beyond a few supposed "precise events" that Dialga knew about, which isn't evidence for an infinite amount of knowledge.

Your burden of proof, which you've failed to meet as I said above. And knowing precise events throughout the time that IS Dialga is most absolutely proof. He's time, and can see things throughout time, thus he's aware of everything within Time. Put 2 and 2 together and this isn't difficult to understand. What else is needed?

And again, stop with this "Infinite amount of knowledge" misconception because that implies I'm arguing he's omniscient. Which im not. But it sure as hell should be more than enough for nigh-omniscience.

And btw, nigh-omniscience would grant (beyond) infinite amounts of knowledge, since it's all knowledge bar a few specific limitations (commonly what a higher power would explicitly withhold from them). Infinite - finite = infinite.

When have we ever treated Nigh-Omniscience like this? You've pulled this out of nowhere. And in fact, our very Nigh Omniscient page and its definition directly disagrees with you and sides with me:

Power to know almost everything in existence. Lesser version of Omniscience.

User knows almost everything in existence while being blocked from certain details or being limited in other ways, possibly only being able to see one timeline or universe, or have just small patches of information that are missing or blocked out. Thus allowing one to keep their sense of free will and uncertainty.

This power is also called limited Omniscience.


Not only does our literal page on Nigh-Omniscience not support anything you are saying here at all, but it outright says that seeing into one timeline or universe is enough to qualify for the rating while having other details blocked from them. Now lets have a refresher on what Dialga is.

-Is the Multiverse's time

-Said Multiverse is infinite

-Is proven to witness events throughout time

Result: Dialga sees and is aware of events throughout infinite time. More than enough to qualify for Nigh-Omniscience. And this aligns with the examples on the page having the rating for more or less the exact same kind of reason why Dialga does, and should, keep it.

After it was pointed out, and the cast specifically asked Palkia to restore Alamos town.

Which means nothing else than Palkia also simply not giving a damn about random individuals being killed and Ash making it feel bad about it. Doesn't mean Palkia wasn't aware of it.

Also, you do realise the contradiction in what you said right? They wouldn't have fought each other if they knew neither was to blame for their dimensions clashing together, and that this wasn't an attempt from either one to invade the other's territory.

Not really? Because regardless of who caused the dimensional clashing, it still wouldn't change the fact that both were invading each others worlds, so they fought to defend them.

And even then, this is still a non-argument. Not knowing something =/= not nigh omniscient. You need a lot better than that to make a case.

First of all, calm down.

Second of all, you brought up other profiles in the first place, yet when I request you to show a profile actually relevant to this case, it's too much to ask?

Examples on the Nigh-Omniscient page for one.

Third of all, the burden of proof isn't on me. You need to explain why existing as time is remotely related to nigh-omniscience. Existing everywhere meaning that you know everything is an extrapolation without explicit statements.

And I did. Dialga is outright shown to know events throughout time, which is better than "explicit statements" and you yourself have admitted to it. Meaning it qualifies.

On the other hand, you have failed to actually meet the requirement in explaining how being everything, and knowing everything that you make up, isn't enough to qualify in the first place. The only things you've done is brought up few memorable moments of the CT not being aware of certain activity, and thats not an argument to get rid of nigh-omniscience in any way, shape or form.

It could simply work more as being in a giant library - you have access to every event that has ever happened, but that doesn't mean you've memorized every book in that library.

Huge false equivalency. Because this isn't simply about "access" when the given characters in this case are far more than that. Sure, if the creation trio weren't what they governed and were simply normal space-time manipulators, you could probably make this argument. But that clearly isn't the case.

Dialga, in this case, isn't simply accessing the library. He IS the library, for everything that has happened, is happening, and ever will happen. And he has been shown to know the events that happened in time like it is the back of his hand.

-Became immediately aware of The Pokemon world being attacked by a raging Arceus in Michina Town

-Sent Ash and company back in time to the moment before Arceus was betrayed and started the whole Jewel of life plot line in the first place.

-When failing in the past, Dialga immediately sent them back further in time to complete their mission

-When completing their objective, Dialga instantly returned them to the future.

Palkia is more or less the same with space, as it immediately knew of Arceus attacking earth and when Dialga was caught in Arceus's portal and immediately came to save it.

And Giratina? Self-explanatory with the Reverse World showing countless events in the verse.

Knowing events throughout time is shown to be incredibly casual to Dialga (and its brethen), there is 0 basis or reasonable reason to think he isn't aware of everything within said time he makes up when we have have several solid examples of him doing just that.

Finally, more specific to Pokemon cosmology, the Creation Trio explicitly doesn't exist everywhere. The distortion world, Arceus' realm and Palkia/Dialga's realms respectively exist without Dialga/Palkia, with the Distortion world being accepted, afaik, to make up around half of the Pokemon cosmology.

They most definitely are their own realms since Giratina is explicitly accepted as being the distortion world, which puts them under the same boat, and because they are non-corporeal when being summoned by their realms.

Regardless, thats beside the point. We know they don't exist everywhere. But we clearly know that they exist everywhere of what they make up. And that, with the reasons and examples given, is enough to grant Nigh Omniscience.

So to reiterate my point, im still entirely opposed to removing Nigh Omniscience from any of these guys, aside from maybe Azelf and Mesprit. The reasons for getting rid of it are just, no offense and for a lack of a better word, terrible.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, sorry, but have to agree with Gyro here.

Your examples are more akin to Cosmic Awareness, Kukui.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, sorry, but have to agree with Gyro here.

Your examples are more akin to Cosmic Awareness, Kukui.

And according to the Nigh Omnscience page, thats enough to qualify for the rating.

So unless we change the standards of getting the rating, im going to continue disagreeing with removing it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, Cosmic Awareness doesn't allow you to witness events throughout time or anything like that. At least going by the description of the page.

The ability to observe phenomena and be aware of events on a cosmic scale, though the specifics may vary. Users of Cosmic Awareness can often sense others and detect potential threats across an interstellar, galactic, or even universal scale, with the greatest of users being so tuned in that they can feel out even the specifics of molecular movements across such distances. Cosmic Awareness is associated with both Clairvoyance and Enhanced Senses and acts as a combination of the two that takes it to a much higher scale, allowing users to observe others from across the universe and "hear" things across such distances.

 

[GyroNutz]

Based off and actually appearing are 2 different things. Regardless, that still doesn't debunk the actual points I have brought up for this, which isn't a gross exaggeration.

This is a weird argument. Yes, they're different things, but that doesn't matter in this context. The main abilities of the Creation Trio come from lore, and all the Nigh-Omniscient characters I know of have it via an explicit statement. Also, those other points were brought up in my post.

And again, stop with this "Infinite amount of knowledge" misconception because that implies I'm arguing he's omniscient. Which im not. But it sure as hell should be more than enough for nigh-omniscience.

When have we ever treated Nigh-Omniscience like this? You've pulled this out of nowhere. And in fact, our very Nigh Omniscient page and its definition directly disagrees with you and sides with me:

It seems you're the one who doesn't understand what nigh-omniscience means. Nigh-omniscience is defined not necessarily by the amount of knowledge a character has, but the lack of knowledge they have compared to an omniscient being. That's why it is stated to be a lesser form of Omniscience, rather than being upscaled from Supergenius. Everything I have been saying ties in directly with the wiki's definition of Nigh-Omniscience.

Not only does our literal page on Nigh-Omniscience not support anything you are saying here at all, but it outright says that seeing into one timeline or universe is enough to qualify for the rating while having other details blocked from them.

Another gross exaggeration, followed by an example that's not relevant here. I shouldn't have to explain why seeing into one universe is utterly irrelevant in a multiverse that's infinitely large several millions of times over.

-Is the Multiverse's time

-Said Multiverse is infinite

-Is proven to witness events throughout time

Result: Dialga sees and is aware of events throughout infinite time. More than enough to qualify for Nigh-Omniscience. And this aligns with the examples on the page having the rating for more or less the exact same kind of reason why Dialga does, and should, keep it.

The first two are not relevant. The third is something that you have yet to prove to be on the scale required for Nigh-Omniscience - knowing a few precise events in time is not the same as knowing every single thing that has occurred in the entire multiverse bar a few limitations. It can't even be extrapolated to the level you're claiming it is without evidence.

As for the examples on the page - first of all, why not link the profiles in question so I can actually see which one(s) you were referring to? They certainly don't all support your claim. But going through each of them:
Eternity: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced. Him gazing upon time and space is simply listed as Cosmic Awareness.
Death of the Endless: Nigh-Omniscience is supported with this scan. An explicit statement that they DO know everything, but that they tell themselves they don't to cope better (Omniscience with a limitation)
Goddess of Dawn: Stated to be omniscient in this scan with the limitation of not knowing Koutarou's future.
Demiurge: Nigh-Omniscience via Precognition, explicitly stated to see infinite possibilities for the future.
Chronos: The closest one to the Dialga case, yet even she is explicitly stated to see all possible worlds and timelines at once, more than once by the looks of it.
Et Ca Repha: Another case of explicitly using precognition to look into all information across time(? I think that's what the time tree refers to).
Nayru: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced, though it's certainly not through some temporal omnipresence.

So again, since you adamantly claim that your definition of nigh-omniscience corresponds with the wiki's, show me one profile that has Nigh-Omniscience for the same case as Dialga.

And I did. Dialga is outright shown to know events throughout time, which is better than "explicit statements" and you yourself have admitted to it. Meaning it qualifies.

...Nope. The examples above and everything I've been saying should make this clear, but knowing events that happen at points in time is not sufficient evidence for Nigh-Omniscience, and is certainly not better than explicit statements of either Nigh-Omniscience or seeing all events throughout time.

On the other hand, you have failed to actually meet the requirement in explaining how being everything, and knowing everything that you make up, isn't enough to qualify in the first place. The only things you've done is brought up few memorable moments of the CT not being aware of certain activity, and thats not an argument to get rid of nigh-omniscience in any way, shape or form.

Again, it is not my position to disprove something that has yet to be proven. This is not a requirement for me - there is a lack of evidence on your side and you have failed to fill that gap. An aside, but I'm astounded as to how you consider my counterexamples to Dialga knowing everything throughout time to be the only relevant part of my argument. I'm not asking for Dialga, Palkia etc to have their Nigh-Omniscience removed because of moments where they should have known something [if they had nigh-omniscience] but didn't. I'm asking for it to be removed because there's insufficient evidence in the first place. You can't extrapolate this from temporal omnipresence or abstract existence, it should be explicitly stated.

I've already answered the examples given, though even if the events played out exactly as you say they did it would not be sufficient evidence for Nigh-Omniscience.

They most definitely are their own realms since Giratina is explicitly accepted as being the distortion world, which puts them under the same boat, and because they are non-corporeal when being summoned by their realms.

Regardless, thats beside the point. We know they don't exist everywhere. But we clearly know that they exist everywhere of what they make up. And that, with the reasons and examples given, is enough to grant Nigh Omniscience.

So to reiterate my point, im still entirely opposed to removing Nigh Omniscience from any of these guys, aside from maybe Azelf and Mesprit. The reasons for getting rid of it are just, no offense and for a lack of a better word, terrible.

You misunderstand. Dialga does not exist in Palkia's realm, and Palkia does not exist in Dialga's realm for obvious reasons.

Your opinions on my reasoning are irrelevant and add nothing constructive. This isn't worth getting frustrated about.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is a weird argument. Yes, they're different things, but that doesn't matter in this context. The main abilities of the Creation Trio come from lore, and all the Nigh-Omniscient characters I know of have it via an explicit statement. Also, those other points were brought up in my post.

Okay but you've been here long enough to know statements are not the only standard, nor are they the gold standard. Feats > statements, and in this case, we have them for the god tiers not named Uxie.

It seems you're the one who doesn't understand what nigh-omniscience means. Nigh-omniscience is defined not necessarily by the amount of knowledge a character has, but the lack of knowledge they have compared to an omniscient being. That's why it is stated to be a lesser form of Omniscience, rather than being upscaled from Supergenius. Everything I have been saying ties in directly with the wiki's definition of Nigh-Omniscience.

Okay? That still does not mean anything about these guys supposedly not possessing nigh omniscience. "Lesser" form of Omniscience can literally have any amount of room for characters to lack an understanding of certain things while still possessing vast amounts of knowledge at their disposal.

And im completely failing to see how someone that is aware of everything throughout infinite time and space does not qualify for that, especially when the creation trio are not the first, nor are they the last to get it for the exact same type of reasoning.

Another gross exaggeration, followed by an example that's not relevant here. I shouldn't have to explain why seeing into one universe is utterly irrelevant in a multiverse that's infinitely large several millions of times over.

Funny, because it seems you missed the actual point of why I mentioned this bit from our Nigh Omniscient page. The point on seeing into one universe / timeline from our page is to refer to the fact that a character, who does just that, is already able to qualify for Nigh Omniscience. So in relation to that very thing, beings who are capable of seeing into a literal infinite multiverse

Or correction, a Multiverse thats infinitely large by a million times over as you yourself pointed out for me

Is most absolutely going to qualify for it being far superior to something thats able to qualify for the rating as a bare minimum, set by the very page.

The first two are not relevant. The third is something that you have yet to prove to be on the scale required for Nigh-Omniscience - knowing a few precise events in time is not the same as knowing every single thing that has occurred in the entire multiverse bar a few limitations. It can't even be extrapolated to the level you're claiming it is without evidence.

And that's where your very, very wrong. Why? Because that is a reverse burden of proof on your part to ask for something that is already provided, and is already enough to grant the rating without going into nitpicking. Shall we go over it?

The burden of proof for this would be to prove Dialga is capable of witnessing events throughout time, as that would be the main aspect of the evidence for him (as well as his brethren) to be able to have Nigh-Omniscience. A reasonable requirement to ask for. We can't assume Dialga can see events throughout the time he makes up without feats of him doing so. So what do we do to fulfill this burden of proof. Simple. We provide feats. And such a requirement is given, and already fulfills the requirement asked here.

Can Dialga see the present? Yes

Can Dialga see the past? Yes

Can Diaga see the future? Yes

All 3 checkpoints are fulfilled by Dialga being proven to be able to witness events throughout time, shown by multiple examples of it doing that. And by that point, the burden of proof is already met for him to get the rating. However, you for some reason are stuck with this ridiculous notion that more examples of Dialga doing this are needed when they very much aren't. Why? Because that surpasses the point of the reasonable amount of evidence required for this. We already know Dialga can see events throughout time, because the provided examples prove so. Dialga IS time, and is proven to see events throughout what he is. What exactly more is needed for this burden of proof to be fulfilled? The answer is nothing, because you are asking for more and more and more of what's already given by limiting this to the magical need of statements (when that isn't a thing in the slightest here) and, for whatever reason, proof that he sees everything in the Multiverse, which is ridiculous as the examples already prove, or strongly implies, that he can. If he is time, and can see things throughout time, the simple answer is that he sees everything of what he is, which is time. Simple as that.

The burden of proof is already met, which is why now, you have the reverse burden of proof that requires you to find things within time that Dialga isn't capable of seeing or witnessing. Something you haven't provided.

As for the examples on the page - first of all, why not link the profiles in question so I can actually see which one(s) you were referring to? They certainly don't all support your claim. But going through each of them:

Because I was sure you would have enough common sense to just...click on the link that has the links to these pages? But anyway:

Eternity: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced. Him gazing upon time and space is simply listed as Cosmic Awareness.
Death of the Endless: Nigh-Omniscience is supported with this scan. An explicit statement that they DO know everything, but that they tell themselves they don't to cope better (Omniscience with a limitation)
Goddess of Dawn: Stated to be omniscient in this scan with the limitation of not knowing Koutarou's future.
Demiurge: Nigh-Omniscience via Precognition, explicitly stated to see infinite possibilities for the future.
Chronos: The closest one to the Dialga case, yet even she is explicitly stated to see all possible worlds and timelines at once, more than once by the looks of it.
Et Ca Repha: Another case of explicitly using precognition to look into all information across time(? I think that's what the time tree refers to).
Nayru: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced, though it's certainly not through some temporal omnipresence.

So again, since you adamantly claim that your definition of nigh-omniscience corresponds with the wiki's, show me one profile that has Nigh-Omniscience for the same case as Dialga.

And again, your back to this magical notion that a statement is required, when thats absolutely not true at all. Why? Because we have feats to do it for us, which is even better.

And as for the "similar profile to Dialga's", you literally have at least 4 of them right they're in the list of examples Gyro. Eternity, Demiurge, Chronos, and Et Ca Repha. Let's not be intellectually dishonest on purpose here.

These 4 profiles are literally similar, if not, the exact same case as Dialgas is here. Eternity's being "unsourced" can be for the simple fact that, like Dialga, he is the embodiment of time and space in his verse and gets the rating for the same reasoning. Demiurge, Chronos and Et Ca Repha's all literally come from seeing the future, which again, is exactly what Dialga can do. Seeing the future for BEING time, and is proven to do such.

And no, a statement being given for the formers doesn't make their cases any more or less different than Dialgas, who showcases feats of doing such.

...Nope. The examples above and everything I've been saying should make this clear, but knowing events that happen at points in time is not sufficient evidence for Nigh-Omniscience, and is certainly not better than explicit statements of either Nigh-Omniscience or seeing all events throughout time.

Feats >> Statements. So yes, it is.

Get that or the nigh-omniscient standards changed if you want it to mean a thing here.

Again, it is not my position to disprove something that has yet to be proven.

Reverse burden of proof, again. So yes, it is in your position to prove your stance.

This is not a requirement for me - there is a lack of evidence on your side and you have failed to fill that gap. An aside, but I'm astounded as to how you consider my counterexamples to Dialga knowing everything throughout time to be the only relevant part of my argument. I'm not asking for Dialga, Palkia etc to have their Nigh-Omniscience removed because of moments where they should have known something [if they had nigh-omniscience] but didn't. I'm asking for it to be removed because there's insufficient evidence in the first place. You can't extrapolate this from temporal omnipresence or abstract existence, it should be explicitly stated.

And im sorry, but I don't care whether or not you're astounded, because I vehemently disagree. The evidence isn't insufficient just because of your personal belief that is.

But even worse

Your mentality of "it should be explicitly stated" doesn't fly, because that is not how our site strictly works. Once again, for the third or so time, our motto is that feats are always superior to statements. Simple as that. Whats shown has a bigger priority over what is stated. There isn't remotely anywhere on this wiki where a statement is the one specific form of evidence needed to gather something here, and without this, you have little to no form of argumentation here in the first place. I don't care about what you think "should" be a thing. What I care about is what IS a thing, actually written down, in our standards that gives us room for what is, and what isn't, allowed. And as of now, feats being superior means statements are not specifically required. And we don't need them when other forms of evidence (which, by the way, doesn't even give these guys anything more than "Possibly Nigh-Omniscient"), get to the same result.

So im not going to repeat myself on this. Either you get the nigh omniscient standards changed to fit what your beliefs think should be in place, or it means nothing here in this thread as any kind of counter argument.

And until you're successful in changing it, im not changing my stance on that.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

"Demiurge: Nigh-Omniscience via Precognition, explicitly stated to see infinite possibilities for the future."
This is just higher level of precognition, seeing infinite possibilities doesn't mean knowing everything of the past, present, and future. If Demiurge has nigh-omniscience because of this then this just makes vs battles seem inaccurate, seeing infinite possibilities would be a anti-feat as a person wouldn't know what the future would be but only sees infinite versions of what it COULD be, for example in one future a guy named jerry may become a ring leader of a gang, you don't know why(as you can't read/know what he is thinking) but you do know he could become a ring leader. In another future that same guy would become a scientist and help find a cure for cancer, he COULD become this but you don't know if he WOULD. Theses are the futures a person COULD have, but you wouldn't know the future he WOULD have. Not mentioning that you don't know anything about the past nor present, and you wouldn't know what anybody knows/thinks/etc.
"Chronos: The closest one to the Dialga case, yet even she is explicitly stated to see all possible worlds and timelines at once, more than once by the looks of it."
again seeing =/= knowing, you might see a person robbing a bank but you wouldn't know what the person is thinking while robbing the bank, you would see everything but not know everything.
"Et Ca Repha: Another case of explicitly using precognition to look into all information across time(? I think that's what the time tree refers to)."
Now we're talking about information, although it has step up in this department, it also has stepped down in another. Here he would be able to know whatever he is looking for, but he doesn't know everything that is happening, will happen, or has happened. You may be confused by this, didn't I say he knows every information in the past, present, and future? I did, but he is "looking up" information, he doesn't "naturally" know everything, such as knowing everything that happened, will happen, or has happened without having to look it up. Think of this as the internet, you can search up any information you want, but you don't naturally know every information there is. Though he would have nigh-omniscient via the book/the book would have nigh-omniscience but he wouldn't naturally have nigh-omniscience nor would the nigh-omniscience be helpful in a battle.
"Eternity: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced. Him gazing upon time and space is simply listed as Cosmic Awareness."
Unless I'm wrong, Eternity has nigh-omniscience for being the embodiment of time and space, which is what Dialga is, and as I said before "seeing =/= knowing"
"Nayru: Nigh-Omniscience is unsourced, though it's certainly not through some temporal omnipresence."
No comment.
"Goddess of Dawn: Stated to be omniscient in this scan with the limitation of not knowing Koutarou's future."
This seems fine.

The ONLY people in the whole list who might have nigh-omniscience would be the Death of the Endless and Goddess of Dawn, while the others shouldn't(excluding Nayru as I have no information about them).

@ProfessorKukui4Life
I know that Dialga can see everything, but has there been information that showcases Dialga being able to know everything? Because seeing everything and knowing everything are completely different, and to have even nigh-omniscience you should be able to know everything, not see everything. Also as said in the upper comments, I don't think some of them should have omniscience, so I need help in making them NOT have nigh-omniscience. Being the concept of time might let you see everything in time, but that doesn't mean you know everything, while being the concept of knowledge means you know every knowledge. Even then you would need more information for nigh-omniscience.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life
I know that Dialga can see everything, but has there been information that showcases Dialga being able to know everything? Because seeing everything and knowing everything are completely different, and to have even nigh-omniscience you should be able to know everything, not see everything. Also as said in the upper comments, I don't think some of them should have omniscience, so I need help in making them NOT have nigh-omniscience. Being the concept of time might let you see everything in time, but that doesn't mean you know everything, while being the concept of knowledge means you know every knowledge. Even then you would need more information for nigh-omniscience.

For the upteenth time, stop using "not knowing x" as some kind of counter argument against this, because thats not how this works for Nigh-Omniscience, which is whats being discussed here instead of Omniscience. Nigh-Omniscience leaves room for you to lack knowledge of any certain thing and still maintain it for having vast knowledge. There's literally no drawn line of what one lacks in order to not get nigh-omniscience. So yes, seeing into infinite futures by itself would still maintain the rating. They wouldn't need to know "why" unless of course you were arguing them to be Omniscient. But, as said before, that isn't the case here.

And on top of that, Dialga most certainly doesn't fall under this argument of "seeing everything doesn't mean it knows it", because it definitely knows why events in time occur. Dialga literally knew of all of the events surrounding Arceus's portrayal in the past, and sent Ash and company back to specific moments in said time period to give them the opportunities to change history. And instantly became aware of when they successfully changed history and brought them back to the future.

On top of that, Dialga's true form literally is time, so its an aspect of everything already. The assumption that it doesn't know of everything going in within what it is as time is silly.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Nigh-omniscience is just below omniscience, one must know "nearly everything" but not a few things". Not knowing what people are thinking would refute nigh-omniscience, and seeing everything doesn't mean knowing nearly everything/everything, so we need more evidence than just "seeing everything".

"They wouldn't need to know "why" unless of course you were arguing them to be Omniscient. But, as said before, that isn't the case here."
If they don't even know the why of a event then they don't have the requirement for nigh-omniscience, and there is examples of beings knowing why, and what while not being omniscient. Goddess of Dawn knows everything, from what people are feeling and thinking, but is nigh-omniscient because she doesn't know ONE thing. Knowing what people know, think, and feel are a requirement of nigh-omniscient and omniscient, if you don't know what everyone THINK or FEEL then that would refute the notion that you know "nearly everything but a few thing" because you don't know what everyone thinks or feels, and everyone isn't a "few thing".

That doesn't show anything supporting that Dialga KNOWs everything, because he can literally SEE what had happened in the past and SEEs that Ash has changed the future because he is time itself. Unless you want to change the definition of nigh-omniscience to "SEE everything" and not "KNOWs nearly EVERYTHING but a FEW things". nigh-omniscient if omniscient but with limitations of a few things, they know everything else other than a few special things.

It is time itself so it sees everything related to time, it sees the whole timeline and world, but that doesn't mean it knows everything that it sees. If you want a good example of nigh-omniscience then look at the seven pure lights from Lord of the Mysteries, they are infinite knowledge itself, they know everything but are nigh-omniscient because there is something greater than the concept of knowledge itself(the Great Old Ones, and the Creator), yet they still know everything about everyone including what they think, feel, and know. They reside in the spirt world where infinite information, knowledge, and illusions is composed of from the past, present, and future intersecting, this is how nigh-omniscience should look like.

btw: seeing infinite futures but not being able to see the past, or present would definitely be higher precognition. Yhwach from Bleach has almighty that allows him to see all futures, but that doesn't make him any close to nigh-omniscient, in fact his almighty is considered precognition only.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Nigh-omniscience is just below omniscience, one must know "nearly everything" but not a few things".

Which, again, is a very damning large area of what one can and cannot know. Given that the expertise of omniscience is literally infinite knowledge, theres no drawn line one must meet in order to keep nigh-omniscience.

You either have infinite knowledge, or you do not. "Near infinity" or "near everything" can be literally anything less than infinite.

Not knowing what people are thinking would refute nigh-omniscience, and seeing everything doesn't mean knowing nearly everything/everything, so we need more evidence than just "seeing everything".

It doesn't, because again, see above. Any number of things you dont know thats less than seeing into one timeline is the only thing that would refute nigh-omniscience. And yes, seeing into even one timeline is enough for the rating at the bare minimum. Our page on Nigh-Omniscience outright specifies this as well.

"They wouldn't need to know "why" unless of course you were arguing them to be Omniscient. But, as said before, that isn't the case here."
If they don't even know the why of a event then they don't have the requirement for nigh-omniscience, and there is examples of beings knowing why, and what while not being omniscient.

Our Nigh-Omniscience page doesn't list this as any kind of requirement or standard, at all. So unless you want to try getting that changed, it means nothing in this discussion.

Goddess of Dawn knows everything, from what people are feeling and thinking, but is nigh-omniscient because she doesn't know ONE thing. Knowing what people know, think, and feel are a requirement of nigh-omniscient and omniscient,

Again, this is not at all a requirement for nigh-omniscience. I will re-quote our pages literal description to you as a reminder:

Power to know almost everything in existence. Lesser version of Omniscience.

User knows almost everything in existence while being blocked from certain details or being limited in other ways, possibly only being able to see one timeline or universe, or have just small patches of information that are missing or blocked out. Thus allowing one to keep their sense of free will and uncertainty.

This power is also called limited Omniscience.

Nowhere does it say that knowing what people think is a requirement, that is headcanon that you made up without actually reading our pages description and requirements. Seeing into one timeline/universe by itself is the bare minimum for Nigh Omniscience here. And as long as this page allows that, Dialga is going to qualify.

That doesn't show anything supporting that Dialga KNOWs everything, because he can literally SEE what had happened in the past and SEEs that Ash has changed the future because he is time itself.

See above.

Unless you want to change the definition of nigh-omniscience to "SEE everything" and not "KNOWs nearly EVERYTHING but a FEW things". nigh-omniscient if omniscient but with limitations of a few things, they know everything else other than a few special things.

Once again, see above.

It is time itself so it sees everything related to time, it sees the whole timeline and world,

Which is enough for nigh-omniscience. Again, see above.

but that doesn't mean it knows everything that it sees. If you want a good example of nigh-omniscience then look at the seven pure lights from Lord of the Mysteries, they are infinite knowledge itself, they know everything but are nigh-omniscient because there is something greater than the concept of knowledge itself(the Great Old Ones, and the Creator), yet they still know everything about everyone including what they think, feel, and know. They reside in the spirt world where infinite information, knowledge, and illusions is composed of from the past, present, and future intersecting, this is how nigh-omniscience should look like.

And again, see above. No offense, but I dont care about what you think nigh-omnscience "should" work like, because thats not how the standards for it work here.

btw: seeing infinite futures but not being able to see the past, or present would definitely be higher precognition. Yhwach from Bleach has almighty that allows him to see all futures, but that doesn't make him any close to nigh-omniscient, in fact his almighty is considered precognition only.

For one, Yhwach doesnt see infinite futures, he sees a large finite number of them. So thats already a bad example.

Two, what was the point in even mentioning this? Dialga sees everything throughout time, he isnt limited to one point or the other.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

I don't know how to quote separate bits so I'll use quotation marks.

"Which, again, is a very damning large area of what one can and cannot know. Given that the expertise of omniscience is literally infinite knowledge, theres no drawn line one must meet in order to keep nigh-omniscience.

You either have infinite knowledge, or you do not. "Near infinity" or "near everything" can be literally anything less than infinite."

You can have infinite knowledge and still be nigh-omniscient, take the seven pure lights for example, they have infinite knowledge of the whole world yet they know nothing of the Great Old Ones nor the Creator. Nigh-omniscience is basically omniscient but with a few restrictions, you know everything but there is {something above you}something you can't see, which makes you nigh-omniscient instead.

"It doesn't, because again, see above. Any number of things you dont know thats less than seeing into one timeline is the only thing that would refute nigh-omniscience. And yes, seeing into even one timeline is enough for the rating at the bare minimum. Our page on Nigh-Omniscience outright specifies this as well."

"Nowhere does it say that knowing what people think is a requirement, that is headcanon that you made up without actually reading our pages description and requirements. Seeing into one timeline/universe by itself is the bare minimum for Nigh Omniscience here. And as long as this page allows that, Dialga is going to qualify."

Well then apologies me, but I didn't know that tapping on it would have sent me to another link. Now it just seems weird to me that somehow not knowing the will/thoughts of beings would be able to somehow even close be nigh-omniscience when nigh-omniscience means omniscience with miniscule gaps(other than that, you know everything, all information), it just doesn't sit right with me.
Knowing something in only one timeline or universe inside a multiverse shouldn't even count for nigh-omniscience because it's not a miniscule gap but a LARGE gap, this takes away everything from the definition of omniscient and nigh.

"For one, Yhwach doesnt see infinite futures, he sees a large finite number of them. So thats already a bad example.

Two, what was the point in even mentioning this? Dialga sees everything throughout time, he isnt limited to one point or the other."

rechecked and it's "all possible futures", and there is an infinite amount of possible futures. The reasoning for this was because you said seeing infinite futures would give one nigh-omniscient which I find bull, knowing infinite futures is nowhere near close to nigh nor "almost nigh", when omniscient is to know all, and adding nigh would mean being close to omniscient, a person who can see all possible futures is nowhere close to nigh. You would see infinite possible futures without knowing which future would happen, you don't know anything about the past nor present, and you don't KNOW THE FUTURE. Think of it like this, you need to find a number to a lock(the future) and you can see infinite possible numbers to the lock(infinite possibilities for the future) see how useless this is and how NOT nigh-omniscience it is. Nigh-omniscient would give you the correct number for infinite amount of locks, maybe missing one or two, but here infinite possibilities would give you infinite possibilities for numbers that you don't know would be the correct number.
3. "Pretty sure this would be precognition only."

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Let's end this, the topic is going out of hand and unless I make a CRT for nigh-omniscient you're the person who's winning so I'll go away.
I disagree for the removal of nigh-omniscient since seeing one timeline/universe is apparently considered nigh-omniscience, and since Dialga is the embodiment of time he fits for the profile.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You can have infinite knowledge and still be nigh-omniscient, take the seven pure lights for example, they have infinite knowledge of the whole world yet they know nothing of the Great Old Ones nor the Creator. Nigh-omniscience is basically omniscient but with a few restrictions, you know everything but there is {something above you}something you can't see, which makes you nigh-omniscient instead.

Of course, but thats beside the actual point im making. Lacking knowledge on [insert anything here] was and never is an automatic disqualification for something being nigh-omniscient, as the rating itself is supposed to acknowledge the lack of said knowledge.

The only way it becomes a disqualification is if the lack of knowledge goes below the minimum of whats needed for the rating. And that isn't the case here for Pokemon (aside from maybe Azelf and Mespirit).

"It doesn't, because again, see above. Any number of things you dont know thats less than seeing into one timeline is the only thing that would refute nigh-omniscience. And yes, seeing into even one timeline is enough for the rating at the bare minimum. Our page on Nigh-Omniscience outright specifies this as well."

"Nowhere does it say that knowing what people think is a requirement, that is headcanon that you made up without actually reading our pages description and requirements. Seeing into one timeline/universe by itself is the bare minimum for Nigh Omniscience here. And as long as this page allows that, Dialga is going to qualify."

Well then apologies me, but I didn't know that tapping on it would have sent me to another link. Now it just seems weird to me that somehow not knowing the will/thoughts of beings would be able to somehow even close be nigh-omniscience when nigh-omniscience means omniscience with miniscule gaps(other than that, you know everything, all information), it just doesn't sit right with me.
Knowing something in only one timeline or universe inside a multiverse shouldn't even count for nigh-omniscience because it's not a miniscule gap but a LARGE gap, this takes away everything from the definition of omniscient and nigh.

My apologies then as well. Im guessing you might be new to the forum then, but either way my bad.

Anyway, I don't agree. Because like I said above, the line of what one knows and doesn't know for nigh omniscience is extremely arbitrary as the rating in and of itself acknowledges the existence of a limit to their knowledge. Said limit is just unknown and can't be definitively determined in most cases. Things like being able to know what everyone is thinking all of the time would, in my view, just be a better form of Nigh-Omniscience than what others have. Which of course is entirely possible to have.

"For one, Yhwach doesnt see infinite futures, he sees a large finite number of them. So thats already a bad example.

Two, what was the point in even mentioning this? Dialga sees everything throughout time, he isnt limited to one point or the other."

rechecked and it's "all possible futures", and there is an infinite amount of possible futures.

Thats not how it works. A verse needs to prove their series has infinite possibilities existing inside of it, otherwise all fictions would have infinite possibilities by default. But, thats not true.

In Bleach, Yhwach is only specified to being able to see as many futures as there are grains of sand. A hilariously large **** ton of futures, but not infinite.

The reasoning for this was because you said seeing infinite futures would give one nigh-omniscient which I find bull, knowing infinite futures is nowhere near close to nigh nor "almost nigh", when omniscient is to know all, and adding nigh would mean being close to omniscient, a person who can see all possible futures is nowhere close to nigh. You would see infinite possible futures without knowing which future would happen

And I disagree. Being aware of infinite events throughout your verse's infinite history (if infinite possibilities is proven to be real inside their verse) should already qualify for the rating.

Also, "without knowing which futures would happen" doesn't matter ultimately, since the existence of infinite possibilities would mean these futures all exist in their own worlds. Which is incredibly basic for 2-A and higher cosmologies.

, you don't know anything about the past nor present, and you don't KNOW THE FUTURE. Think of it like this, you need to find a number to a lock(the future) and you can see infinite possible numbers to the lock(infinite possibilities for the future) see how useless this is and how NOT nigh-omniscience it is.

See above. For a 2-A or higher cosmology, the existence of infinite possibilities are real and literal. They aren't "what could happen" as they all...simultaneously exist.