Re:Creators CRT #1

[Mr. Bambu]

That is fine and I can put you up for disagree on this, but I talked to Ultima regarding this and showed him additional context and evidence, so he'll be coming here shortly to address everything.

Yeah, put me into the disagree category. I don't suspect Ultima will have a magic word to alter my opinion too much here, but sure, ig.

Its sealing because the realm was made to trap Altair inside it with no chance of escape. And no, it has no "One Exit" in it and neither it is stated that the space has one exit. The "One Exit" is in regards to the fact that amongst an Infinite Gates, if there are gates, there will be an exit, which Altair can find out. So yes, it was intended to Seal Altair but she used her ability to find out a single exit amongst infinite gates to escape the realm.

The statements made about gates having exits, and there being one exit here, would seem to directly contradict all of this.

Context for this is simple. Physical attacks and spells were not doing jack to Altair and thus, to harm Altair, they decided to attack Altair's concept. So yes, they used a concept to attack someone's concept. As for why it's "Type 1", its because the power existed and was created by Matsubara before the realm even spawned. So obviously, the concept is independent of the object.
If you do not take the references to Buddhism and just go with the literal translation of "Warping 3000 worlds", it's still Space-Time Manipulation as worlds in the series is exclusively used refer to alternate universes.

Yeah, but the word "concept" is not always going to mean what we on VSBW use it to mean, hence my disagreement.

also did you insert a typo into the bit of text you were quoting here lol

"arargument" isn't even how I typed it

what happened there

The translation stuff, if we could get third party Japanese translators on the wiki to take a look, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Deagonx]

The translation stuff, if we could get third party Japanese translators on the wiki to take a look, I'd appreciate it.

For the two points of contention, I asked a translation service, and explained the two points of contention:

So, according to this translator, the verb used definitively rules out "create" as an acceptable translation of the verb, saying that it implies the gates were pre-existing and were revealed or brought forth, and there is no equivalent to "can" in the other line. So, anything based on the notion that Selesia created this realm has to go, such as the AP upgrade, Void/Spacetime Manip/Chaos Manip.

 

[Armorchompy]

was asked to check this so uh

summary?

 

[Deagonx]

Here are the abilities I removed, and a brief explanation of what the argument was for them, and why those arguments are unsound.

Acausality: These characters were pulled from their fictional narratives, and thus were freed from the narrative constraints they were once under. However, this does not suggest they have irregular causality in any way. I thought maybe it could be resistance to plot manip, but when discussing it with Ultima he said he wouldn't consider this situation to grant any ability at all, so both should be removed.

Concept Manip: This is based on Altair noting that Selesia "used the concept of Hachimon Tonkou." However, Hachimon Tonkou is an ability that Selesia was using in that moment, this isn't Concept Manip, let alone Type 1.

Spatial Manip/Time Manip: When Selesia activates her ability she says a chant which, among other things, says "warp sanzensekai" which in real-world Buddhism refers to all layers of existence. I don't see any reason to take the statements in her chant as literal descriptions of abilities because it's very blatantly flowery language and there's no other indication Selesia can manipulate either of these things. Further, she didn't create the space she sent Altair to, so she shouldn't get Spatial Manip for that (and wouldn't get Time Manip for it even if she did).

Chaos Manip: Another part of the chant is the line "It is not a hell of flame, nor crystals of ice, but where reason returns to chaos." I didn't really understand why this means Selesia can manipulate Chaos, and I am still against taking the chant as literal descriptions of abilities when it's clearly poetic. I asked Ultima about this and he said, indeed, he can't even really tell what this phrase is supposed to mean.

Void Manip: This apparently was based on the additional line of the chant in the novelization which says "There are no forms and no meanings. Not even a shadow exists there." It was mistranslated in the blog as "Not even a shadow can exist there" but I digress, this doesn't constitute Void Manipulation. The blog describes the realm she sent Altair to as a "Realm of Nothingness" but this is unsupported by anything in the blog. Further, if the realm is a void then it can't be spatiotemporal, so at the bare minimum this cannot be granted alongside Spacetime Manip for the same feat.

Vector Manip: The Hachimon Tonkou ability is said to manipulate direction, but the guidebook describes this purely in terms of disorienting someone to trap them in the realm so they can't find the exit, and Selesia never demonstrates an ability to "manipulate vectors."

Sealing: Per Bambu: This doesn't seem to actually be Sealing. It's BFR to an infinite space that has one exit and messes with perception to prevent you from finding it. Nothing implies Sealing.

Attack Potency: So, this wouldn't be an AP feat even if this ability created the realm, but none of the scans say that she created it, only that she made the gate to it appear, and an infinite sized space would simply be 3-A in any case. She's only able to use this ability to BFR somebody, there's no evidence this is fungible to her direct attack power or durability and we shouldn't treat it as such.

Resistance to Matter Manip & Biological Manip: Per Bambu: I wouldn't give these resistances for this, unless it is also shown that they cannot be harmed or changed in any way. This is too vague, and really if we took it to the logical extremes, it would mean they cannot be physically harmed. It's nonsensical to then presume that this contradiction is fine while still allowing them to resist these two abilities. If I had to make it something, probably Body Control.

This is a summary of my points, with the parts Bambu said added as well. The translation disputes are in my favor as well, based on the above.

 

[Dereck03]

It seems dishonest to me that only the summary of the opposing side is highlighted and not those of the other side, so here are my points as to why Acausality should remain. Type 2 will be gone for creations but will remain for Altair and Sirius, but Type 4 will remain for all creations.

We don't need to assume that it is, simply the fact that they are no longer bound by the very narrative causality of their world should be enough.

It is not a strech, as she doesn't have a creator due to being an indepedent existence normal methods of creation can't affect her. She even clarified it here and she is completely free and although she does not belong to any place, her existence is supported by an infinite number of creators, since she takes the powers of people's imagination. But as said, they cannot alter Altair's history in any way nor can they create a future where she would lose, so they simply decided to try to create a narrative where Meteora would be stronger than Altair, which failed.

Here. Even long before Meteora planned the use of the bird cage and the creation of Sirius by Magane and Souta, Altair had already predicted all their action and even Aliceteria's betrayal plan but could not deduce the creation plan or the existence of Sirius. And this is contemplated by Altair's total amazement and the realizations she has at that moment, she who always knew everything at the end did not know about that moment.

Well, they should, since they are not bound to follow the narrative of the gods' world, but are forced to follow it because the restorative force is trying to eliminate the irregularity of the real world. And it should be noted that it is not just a normal narrative, but a narrative causality or narrative yoke.

Here you are saying it yourself, they were bound by the causal narrative in their world, but they broke that narrative in the real world, if it were not for the restorative force they would be an atypical existence that would not be governed by the laws of the world.

 

[Deagonx]

It seems dishonest to me that only the summary of the opposing side is highlighted and not those of the other side

I am not the one making your argument, so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to summarize on your behalf. Most typically when a request for summaries is made, each side provides their own.

 

[RM97]

Sealing involves placing a character into another object. Sending them to an empty space isn't sealing.
Also, your argument seems incoherent here. You say that it's not stated that the space has one exit, but then directly quote Altair saying that there was an exit and she found it.

It is sealing if you send them to a realm which cannot be escaped from. Also no, my argument is not incoherent. The realm doesn't have an exit. Altair "pointed out" one gate that is an exit amongst infinite ones that supposedly aren't using the logic "If there is a gate then there is an exit" aka its a feat for Altair's hax, and not a prexisting condition of the realm having a gate. Also funny enough how in a few seconds she conveniently found an escape gate out of an infinite number of gates in an infinite space, which would be impossible to do so unless she had any ability to help her with that.

The nature of what the statement about Altair's "concept" refers to requires a separate discussion, since it's not in the OP and is a whole can of worms unto itself, but they don't say Hachimon Tonkou was used to "attack" Altair's concept, and there's nothing saying the realm didn't already exist. In all likelihood Matsubara was responsible for creating the realm.

It's outright given in the profile and discussed and accepted by the very (ex)admins here who made the Abstract Existence and Conceptual Manipulation page. The video clip I have provided gives enough context to put everything piece by piece together. They say that they need to attack Altair's concept as physical/magical attacks are not working, and they immediately use Ionion Aphoria which, as per both the anime and even the guidebook, uses the concept of Hachimon Tonkou. So naturally, the logical conclusion is that Selesia used the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to attack the Concept of Altair.

Not to mention, Conceptual Manipulation was already accepted here previously but they're all based on the old concept types and currently, it'd fit the concept type 1 category of being an independent concept, or at least type 2.

As for "warping 3000 worlds" that still requires taking the chant as a literal description of power even though the ability activated by the chant does not accomplish such a thing, and Selesia has never demonstrated such a power, so I'm still a disagree here.

Given the fact that Hachimon Tonkou itself is described to be manipulating directions including and beyond the geographical ones, and I have pointed out how directions is associated with Space-Time, then it fits perfectly with the given statement of "Warping Sanzensekai" which, if taken either literally as "3000 Worlds" or contextually as "All of Creation", will give Space-Time Manipulation.

It is not. I may not speak Japanese, but I am a professional translator. The word "can" is not something that would depend on context. At best I could see a sentence like "is it possible for him to [verb] or "is he able to [verb]" could be turned into "can" but these two sentences:

"No shadow exists there"
"No shadow can exist there"

Are substantively different in a manner that can't be handwaved. Perhaps it is some remarkable quirk of Japanese that could allow such a thing but I am extremely skeptical and would require confirmation from somebody other than Qlipoth.

Skepticism is fine. Heck I even asked ExecutorN0 about the translation for that part and he says its fine even though he did not say anything about "can" part. Though, even if you say "No shadows exist there", it still makes the realm a void realm given the description "Its not a hell of ice or fire, and where reason reduces to chaos. No form, meaning, or shadow exists there". Aka a roundabout way of saying its purely a void realm that not even shadows or meanings, aka metaphysical aspects, can exist in there as its a place where even reason is reduced to chaos.

The statements made about gates having exits, and there being one exit here, would seem to directly contradict all of this.

The statement doesn't say gates having exits. The full context is that Selesia trapped Altair in a realm with Infinite Gates. Altair escapes out and says she used the logic "If there are gates, there will be an exit" and how she escaped by "Pointing out a single exit amongst an infinite space" aka finding that one exit gate amongst an infinite ones. Its a testament to Altair's hax, and not any inherent characteristic of the realm.

Yeah, but the word "concept" is not always going to mean what we on VSBW use it to mean, hence my disagreement.

Given the context, "Concept" here would fit in as a Concept is used to attack another Concept.

The translation stuff, if we could get third party Japanese translators on the wiki to take a look, I'd appreciate it.

I don't know any current translator here except Chasekillen (who is busy) and ExecutorN0 (who is also busy). So I'd appreciate if anyone here can ask for a wiki translator.

So, according to this translator, the verb used definitively rules out "create" as an acceptable translation of the verb

That's not what they say. They say that the verb usage implies the pre-existence of the gates as they appeared or brought forth. But they also don't say that its a "Definitive", as I have pointed out how "出現" translates to "Appear" but also could mean "Coming into Existence" aka create. Though, if a Wiki Translator can confirm that the sentence indeed means "Appear" with no other meaning for "Create", then ofc Selesia would lose Void/Chaos Hax and AP as they'll all go to Matsubara, the original creator of the power and realm.

 

[Deagonx]

It is sealing if you send them to a realm which cannot be escaped from.

Let me be clear: The argument is not whether we can call it "sealing" it is whether it fits the standards for the ability we call "Sealing" on the wiki. In this case, no, it wouldn't be "Sealing."

The realm doesn't have an exit. Altair "pointed out" one gate that is an exit amongst infinite ones that supposedly aren't using the logic "If there is a gate then there is an exit" aka its a feat for Altair's hax, and not a prexisting condition of the realm having a gate. Also funny enough how in a few seconds she conveniently found an escape gate out of an infinite number of gates in an infinite space, which would be impossible to do so unless she had any ability to help her with that.

Well, again, the problem is that the scans contradict this.

Altair: "It looks like you've used the concept of Hachimon Tonko. An infinite gate."
Altair: "Wherever there's a gate, there's an exit, Selesia. Did you really think I wouldn't be able to point out a single exit within an infinite space?"

Nothing suggests Altair had to find the "correct" gate amongst infinitely many gates. The official translation is that it was a single exit in an infinite space.

So naturally, the logical conclusion is that Selesia used the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou to attack the Concept of Altair.

The logical conclusion is that Selesia BFR'd Altair into an empty space she didn't create. Hachimon Tonkou is an ability, the fact that it's described as the "concept of Hachimon Tonkou" doesn't make it concept manip, for the reasons that Bambu explained.

Given the fact that Hachimon Tonkou itself is described to be manipulating directions including and beyond the geographical ones, and I have pointed out how directions is associated with Space-Time, then it fits perfectly with the given statement of "Warping Sanzensekai" which, if taken either literally as "3000 Worlds" or contextually as "All of Creation", will give Space-Time Manipulation.

No, it doesn't, because there's no reason to assume that the chant is a literal description of ability, and manipulating someone's physical orientation and the direction someone perceives themself as going, isn't spatial manip either.

Though, even if you say "No shadows exist there", it still makes the realm a void realm given the description "Its not a hell of ice or fire, and where reason reduces to chaos. No form, meaning, or shadow exists there".

I strongly disagree, but this is moot since she didn't create the realm, and sending someone to a void with BFR isn't void manip. So chaos manip and void manip must go, too.

They say that the verb usage implies the pre-existence of the gates as they appeared or brought forth. But they also don't say that its a "Definitive"

It doesn't really matter. If the translation is most naturally read by pre-existing gates, then that is what we will go with unless you produce other evidence that it was created by Selesia, which I assuming you do not have since it isn't in the blog. So the AP upgrade must go, too. It would've only been a creation feat regardless, but yeah the scans don't support this.

they'll all go to Matsubara, the original creator of the power and realm.

No, not necessarily. Matsubara may simply be the originator of the technique that can BFR somebody there. Unless a scan says Matsubara created it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The statement doesn't say gates having exits. The full context is that Selesia trapped Altair in a realm with Infinite Gates. Altair escapes out and says she used the logic "If there are gates, there will be an exit" and how she escaped by "Pointing out a single exit amongst an infinite space" aka finding that one exit gate amongst an infinite ones. Its a testament to Altair's hax, and not any inherent characteristic of the realm.

I don't really see that as the case. Her being able to find the exit, yeah, maybe. But nothing implies she made it, or tore herself out. There just was an exit in the infinite gate.

Your other points are better discussed by Deagon and whatever translators might want to speak here, though I will say that I'd generally respect a professional translator's interpretation than a wiki one, which as far as I can tell, Deagon has indeed paid a translator to take a look at the text here.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Let me be clear: The argument is not whether we can call it "sealing" it is whether it fits the standards for the ability we call "Sealing" on the wiki. In this case, no, it wouldn't be "Sealing."


Well, again, the problem is that the scans contradict this.

Altair: "It looks like you've used the concept of Hachimon Tonko. An infinite gate."
Altair: "Wherever there's a gate, there's an exit, Selesia. Did you really think I wouldn't be able to point out a single exit within an infinite space?"

Nothing suggests Altair had to find the "correct" gate amongst infinitely many gates. The official translation is that it was a single exit in an infinite space.


The logical conclusion is that Selesia BFR'd Altair into an empty space she didn't create. Hachimon Tonkou is an ability, the fact that it's described as the "concept of Hachimon Tonkou" doesn't make it concept manip, for the reasons that Bambu explained.


No, it doesn't, because there's no reason to assume that the chant is a literal description of ability, and manipulating someone's physical orientation and the direction someone perceives themself as going, isn't spatial manip either.


I strongly disagree, but this is moot since she didn't create the realm, and sending someone to a void with BFR isn't void manip. So chaos manip and void manip must go, too.


It doesn't really matter. If the translation is most naturally read by pre-existing gates, then that is what we will go with unless you produce other evidence that it was created by Selesia, which I assuming you do not have since it isn't in the blog. So the AP upgrade must go, too. It would've only been a creation feat regardless, but yeah the scans don't support this.


No, not necessarily. Matsubara may simply be the originator of the technique that can BFR somebody there. Unless a scan says Matsubara created it.

Holy shit, please tell me that you know the most basic parts of Re:Creators cosmology before spitting this nonsense.

Matsubara is a normal guy. The world they live is 1-to-1 to the Real World. They don't have the flashy powers. the spin-off story he whimmed up to boost Selesia's ability within the Birdcage, where the planned accumulation of "Audience" and "Acceptance" allowed Selesia's new attack to materialize into existence. There was no "Sanzensekai" nor "Hachimon Tonko" for the Real World prior to that. But you know what? Here is the certain, irrefutable sealing scene you need. Ah, also. Space-Time Manipulation would still stay, because I can't stand to your assumptions anymore. The way Altair mentions "Wave Chant" as "she is acquainted with her(Selesia's) story", this implies the existence of "Wave Chant" is actually apart of Selesia's original abilities (since Altair, at those seconds, were not aware of the fact that she was within the "Birdcage"), just the attack of 'Ionion Aphoria' seems to be later added into her arsenal (as she mentions that this specific attack -Ionion Aphoria- was designed by her Creator, that even Selesia herself was unsure if it would work at first).

I don't really see that as the case. Her being able to find the exit, yeah, maybe. But nothing implies she made it, or tore herself out. There just was an exit in the infinite gate.

Your other points are better discussed by Deagon and whatever translators might want to speak here, though I will say that I'd generally respect a professional translator's interpretation than a wiki one, which as far as I can tell, Deagon has indeed paid a translator to take a look at the text here.

So, you're (as well as Deagon, with this singular gate already existing somewhere) telling me that "the infinite space", one that Selesia was surprised about how Altair managed to get out of it, is supposed to have an exit that can be reached? If so, that's the same as saying Altair should have infinite speed. If not, then that would mean Altair simply broke out of it, which directly contradict with your debunking attempt. So, which one of the two choices are you implying here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So, you're (as well as Deagon, with this singular gate already existing somewhere) telling me that "the infinite space", one that Selesia was surprised about how Altair managed to get out of it, is supposed to have an exit that can be reached? If so, that's the same as saying Altair should have infinite speed. If not, then that would mean Altair simply broke out of it, which directly contradict with your debunking attempt. So, which one of the two choices are you implying here?

Yep. The verse itself is also telling you that. And... no, no it actually isn't. Let me try to phrase this in a way that is easy to understand.

The exit itself is not stated to be infinite distance away. We don't even know what form it takes, only that it is stated to exist. By claiming you would need infinite speed to reach a non-infinite object within an infinite space, you instantly presume that you must cross infinite distance to reach anything in that space. This is provably not so, and a vast overpresumption of how space works.

So, to answer your question: I'm presuming neither, because it doesn't work like that.

 

[Deagonx]

The way Altair mentions "Wave Chant" as "she is acquainted with her(Selesia's) story", this implies the existence of "Wave Chant" is actually apart of Selesia's original abilities (since Altair, at those seconds, were not aware of the fact that she was within the "Birdcage")

This doesn't imply that the statements within the chant are literal descriptions of abilities that she had. Instead of this somewhat convoluted argument for saying the phrase "warp sanzensekai" is a reference to an actual ability she has...

How about you just, I don't know, show her using these alleged powers? Instead of just assuming they exist because of the chant but she never actually uses them?

is supposed to have an exit that can be reached? If so, that's the same as saying Altair should have infinite speed. If not, then that would mean Altair simply broke out of it, which directly contradict with your debunking attempt. So, which one of the two choices are you implying here?

That's what the verse said, but why are you assuming the exit is an infinite distance away from her within the space?

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Yep. The verse itself is also telling you that. And... no, no it actually isn't. Let me try to phrase this in a way that is easy to understand.

The exit itself is not stated to be infinite distance away. We don't even know what form it takes, only that it is stated to exist. By claiming you would need infinite speed to reach a non-infinite object within an infinite space, you instantly presume that you must cross infinite distance to reach anything in that space. This is provably not so, and a vast overpresumption of how space works.

So, to answer your question: I'm presuming neither, because it doesn't work like that.

Dang man, there's nothing I could say against this without stepping over my boundaries. I mean, alright. That's on me to assume that.

This doesn't imply that the statements within the chant are literal descriptions of abilities that she had. Instead of this somewhat convoluted argument for saying the phrase "warp sanzensekai" is a reference to an actual ability she has...

How about you just, I don't know, show her using these alleged powers? Instead of just assuming they exist because of the chant but she never actually uses them?

No, but those implied that Space-Time Manipulation and Sealing would be good to stay. There were a bunch of "Wave Chants" used so far (There is a fifth one, though that resulted with paralyzing the mechas and self-destruct after that, hence why I've chosen not to include it among the four prior examples). Pick whatever you like for Sealing and Space-Time manipulation. Wave Chants are correlated with the action, such as how the long-chanted bunch (second and fourth, respectively) did so (piercing/sealing). Also, as a totally different question, didn't the Translator (which you've paid for) actually validated that it could be an infinite amount of gates rather than a singular one, depending on the source's context? Did they give any further input after that?

As for the case of Sanzensekai, it is literally a buddhist term to describe "The Universe"/"All of Creation", but with lacking further knowledge about that part, I think it would be better for RM97 or Ultima, if they'd comment here, to delve in it.

 

[Breakdown]

For the two points of contention, I asked a translation service, and explained the two points of contention:

So, according to this translator, the verb used definitively rules out "create" as an acceptable translation of the verb, saying that it implies the gates were pre-existing and were revealed or brought forth, and there is no equivalent to "can" in the other line. So, anything based on the notion that Selesia created this realm has to go, such as the AP upgrade, Void/Spacetime Manip/Chaos Manip.

This doesn't work as a debunk.


To start off, any amount of information and possibility in Re:Creators creates a universe. Even if it's just one infinite gate and not an infinite amount of gates, that still implies infinite size, and Altair flat up says that it is infinite, confirming it. Ionion Aphoria destroys reason and possibility, hence destroying the very conceptual foundation of reality in Re:Creators. An infinite sized space logically destroys an infinite amount of information/reason/possibilities, making this easily 2-B or greater. Part of the Ionion Aphoria attack is warping 3000 worlds, an infinite amount of information, again, reality, so whether or not Ionion Aphoria actually made the realm, or whether or not that realm has an infinite amount of gates or not, it is still a 2-B or higher feat.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This doesn't work as a debunk.


To start off, any amount of information and possibility in Re:Creators creates a universe. Even if it's just one infinite gate and not an infinite amount of gates, that still implies infinite size, and Altair flat up says that it is infinite, confirming it. Ionion Aphoria destroys reason and possibility, hence destroying the very conceptual foundation of reality in Re:Creators. An infinite sized space logically destroys an infinite amount of information/reason/possibilities, making this easily 2-B or greater. Part of the Ionion Aphoria attack is warping 3000 worlds, an infinite amount of information, again, reality, so whether or not Ionion Aphoria actually made the realm, or whether or not that realm has an infinite amount of gates or not, it is still a 2-B or higher feat.

infinity sized w

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This doesn't work as a debunk.


To start off, any amount of information and possibility in Re:Creators creates a universe. Even if it's just one infinite gate and not an infinite amount of gates, that still implies infinite size, and Altair flat up says that it is infinite, confirming it. Ionion Aphoria destroys reason and possibility, hence destroying the very conceptual foundation of reality in Re:Creators. An infinite sized space logically destroys an infinite amount of information/reason/possibilities, making this easily 2-B or greater. Part of the Ionion Aphoria attack is warping 3000 worlds, an infinite amount of information, again, reality, so whether or not Ionion Aphoria actually made the realm, or whether or not that realm has an infinite amount of gates or not, it is still a 2-B or higher feat.

That part sounds like a chain reaction, than an actual feat of 2-B scale

 

[Deagonx]

This doesn't work as a debunk.


To start off, any amount of information and possibility in Re:Creators creates a universe. Even if it's just one infinite gate and not an infinite amount of gates, that still implies infinite size, and Altair flat up says that it is infinite, confirming it. Ionion Aphoria destroys reason and possibility, hence destroying the very conceptual foundation of reality in Re:Creators. An infinite sized space logically destroys an infinite amount of information/reason/possibilities, making this easily 2-B or greater. Part of the Ionion Aphoria attack is warping 3000 worlds, an infinite amount of information, again, reality, so whether or not Ionion Aphoria actually made the realm, or whether or not that realm has an infinite amount of gates or not, it is still a 2-B or higher feat.

This is just repeating your claims and assuming the chant is a literal description of powers she has, but has never demonstrated. It's becoming somewhat redundant to your earlier posts that I've already responded to.

 

[Breakdown]

You are selectively ignoring parts of Re:Creators lore and the description of her abilities which do not fit your narrative. She is demonstrating those powers by using the ability, why would the descriptions not be literal? Can you provide a compelling reason for us to assume they are metaphorical? Doubts and incredulity are not enough.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

This is just repeating your claims and assuming the chant is a literal description of powers she has, but has never demonstrated. It's becoming somewhat redundant to your earlier posts that I've already responded to.

You're ignoring posts atp. I mean, that could be the only thing I can think of when you literally skipped the instances that I've mentioned up..

 

[Breakdown]

That part sounds like a chain reaction, than an actual feat of 2-B scale

How?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

How?

Because it's destroying the source of these alternate worlds, and by consequence of these actions, these worlds cease to be. That's textbook chain reaction.

That's what I take from that comment. Should be noted, I know nothing of this verse and am not evaluating it.

 

[Breakdown]

Because it's destroying the source of these alternate worlds, and by consequence of these actions, these worlds cease to be. That's textbook chain reaction.

That's what I take from that comment. Should be noted, I know nothing of this verse and am not evaluating it.

Information is the conceptual framework of Re:Creators. Everything is the manifestation of information, possibilities, etc. and formed out of them. It's destroying reality at every level, down to the very source.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Information is the conceptual framework of Re:Creators. Everything is the manifestation of information, possibilities, etc. and formed out of them. It's destroying reality at every level, down to the very source.

Doesn't really change my point. By destroying information, stuff ceases to be. They aren't actually interacting with these "realities/possibilities", but the thing that's making them happen. That's a chain reaction.

 

[Breakdown]

Reality is literally information, that's why destroying it will destroy reality, because information conceptually makes it up

Doesn't really change my point. By destroying information, stuff ceases to be. They aren't actually interacting with these "realities/possibilities", but the thing that's making them happen. That's a chain reaction.

. This is very simple concept stuff which is all explained in OP's blog.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Reality is literally information, that's why destroying it will destroy reality, because information conceptually makes it up


. This is very simple concept stuff which is all explained in OP's blog.

...and that would be a chain reaction. Again. Doesn't change my point.

 

[Breakdown]

This is like arguing that subatomic destruction is chain reaction.

 

[RM97]

Let me be clear: The argument is not whether we can call it "sealing" it is whether it fits the standards for the ability we call "Sealing" on the wiki. In this case, no, it wouldn't be "Sealing."

From the wiki's definition of Sealing:

Sealing is typically the ability to place or seal one or more objects into another object, though there are various applications. The mechanism behind the sealing process varies greatly from fiction to fiction (be it through magic or ki use), though the end results are similar. When used as an attack, sealing techniques can often bypass physical durability entirely.

• The first type involves sealing physical objects, including living beings. These objects can be sealed within a containment item, though sealing the object within the caster or other people has been shown to be effective. When used against a living being, these powers have the potential to be considered broken depending on how freely the user can preform the sealing technique, though many cases require prep or have imposed drawbacks on the user to prevent this. When a living being is sealed within another living being, the container subject becomes the sealed target's host. The effects that the sealed target has on their host varies depending on the work of fiction, as do the effects on the target if their container is destroyed.

Unless there is any rule that Realms/Dimensions do not constitute part of "Containment Item", it very clearly matches the description of Sealing. This also fits with the context afterwards where Altair did not use her Dimensional Travel to escape the realm and had to resort to finding an exit gate amongst infinite gates. Not to mention a simple BFR would not make sense as the creators were obviously aware of Altair's capability for dimensional travel and they would not have made an ability just to BFR Altair knowing damn well that she could travel between worlds.

Well, again, the problem is that the scans contradict this.

Altair: "It looks like you've used the concept of Hachimon Tonko. An infinite gate."
Altair: "Wherever there's a gate, there's an exit, Selesia. Did you really think I wouldn't be able to point out a single exit within an infinite space?"

Nothing suggests Altair had to find the "correct" gate amongst infinitely many gates. The official translation is that it was a single exit in an infinite space.

This argument is really bad. Did you not see that there were multiple gates shown in the scene itself? Heck, I challenge anyone in here, admin or otherwise, to point out that the entire scene only showed a single gate instead of multiple gates. Not to mention, ExecutorN0 already pointed out the fact that Plural is not persistent in Japanese and that something can either mean Singular or Plural depending on context?

To be fair, it's something very easy to get wrong in Japanese, especially when it's a language that basically lacks the generic plural that is commonly used because in writing it deals more with the concept of something. So, of course, 無限の門 can both be translated as infinite gate/gate of infinite or infinite gates. Considering there was a very clear pattern of multiple gates appearing, I wonder why it was translated as infinite gate instead of infinite gates.

Did you also forget that your very own translation has the translator saying it can be translated into "Infinite Gates" and is correct? As such mention of "An Infinity Gate" in the anime is a translation issue on the Subtitle Part when it would be "Infinite Gates".

For the two points of contention, I asked a translation service, and explained the two points of contention:

The logical conclusion is that Selesia BFR'd Altair into an empty space she didn't create. Hachimon Tonkou is an ability, the fact that it's described as the "concept of Hachimon Tonkou" doesn't make it concept manip, for the reasons that Bambu explained.

Bambu only explained that a passing mention of "Concept" in a series will not give "Conceptual Manipulation" and in return, I showcased the context as how it stated that Physical-Magical attacks do not work on Altair and that attacking her concept is the only way, after which Selesia uses the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou for Ionion Aphoria to BFR and Seal Altair in that Realm. Logic dictates that to Attack Altair's Concept, they had to use a Concept (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) for their Power (Ionion Aphoria), thus, it is clear-cut Conceptual Manipulation which has also been previously agreed.

No, it doesn't, because there's no reason to assume that the chant is a literal description of ability, and manipulating someone's physical orientation and the direction someone perceives themself as going, isn't spatial manip either.

There are reasons to assume this because the chant itself is tied to Hachimon Tonkou which itself is described as capable of manipulating Directions and goes beyond Geographic Directions to include perceptions of a person. So no reason to assume that a chant describing the power of an ability does not mean it in the literal way when the chant itself is associated with the the concept that has been described to be capable of manipulating directions. For anyone still wanting evidence, here are the two scans (1) & (2) itself, and here are the raw texts with different translations:

Raw JP Text​	Translation in Blog from Translator​	Google Translate​	DeepL Translate​
■「其は三千世界を歪ませり。アゴア、アマイル、正しく英知」の在処を示し、アルス・ノトリアは七方へその力を輝う。飲みこめ、アイオーニオン、アフォーリア!」 八門遁甲の概念を応用した無限の門を出現させる波動詠唱。この作戦のために松原が改変したセレジアの能力。「アルス・ノトリア」は中世ヨーロッパの刻印の魔術で、幾何学図形、記号、祈祷文が記述された複数の円で構成されている。複写本ではあるが大英博物館に保管されている「ソロモンの小さな鍵」にその内容が収められている。	■「It warps three thousand worlds. Agoa, Amile, show us where the "wisdom" is, and Ars Notoria will shine its power in the seven directions. Swallow, Ionion Aphoria!」 A wave chant that applies the concept of the "Hachimon Tonkou" to create an infinite number of gates. This was Selesia's ability, modified by Matsubara for this mission. The "Ars Notoria" is a medieval European engraving of magic, consisting of multiple circles with geometric shapes, symbols and prayers. The content of the book is contained in the "Little Key of Solomon," a copy of which is kept in the British Museum.	■「It distorts three thousand worlds. Ars Notoria shines its power in seven directions, showing the location of "Agoa, Amile, Proper Wisdom." Swallow it, Ionion, Aphoria!」 A wave chant that makes infinite gates appear, applying the concept of eight gates and armor. Selesia's ability was modified by Matsubara for this operation. Ars Notria is a medieval European form of engraved magic, consisting of circles inscribed with geometric shapes, symbols, and prayers. The contents are contained in ``Solomon's Little Key,'' a copy of which is kept in the British Museum.	■「It distorts three thousand worlds. Showing where "Agoa, Amile, and Wisdom are," Ars Notria shines its power to the seven directions. Swallow, aionion, aphoria!」 A wave chant that applied the concept of Hakumon Fugakko to create an infinite number of gates. This is the ability of Celesia, modified by Matsubara for this mission. The "Ars Notoria" is a medieval European engraving magic consisting of multiple circles with geometric figures, symbols, and prayers written on them. The contents of the book are contained in the "Little Key of Solomon," which is kept in the British Museum, although it is a photocopied book.
■「八門遁甲」 方位を操る術。地理的な方位に限らず、認識の向かう先をねじ曲げる。たとえば、まっすぐに進んでいるつもりが同じ場所をぐるぐる回っているような状態に陥らせる。	■「Hachimon Tonkou」 The art of manipulating direction. It is not limited to geographic directions but also twists the direction of perception. For example, it can make you think you are going in a straight line, but you are going in circles around the same place.	■「Eight gates」 The art of manipulating direction. It distorts the direction of perception, not just geographical direction. For example, when you think you are moving in a straight line, you end up going around in circles in the same place.	■「Hakumon Fugyo」 The art of manipulating direction. It is not limited to geographical directions, but also twists the direction of perception. For example, it can make you think you are going in a straight line, but you are going around in circles in the same place.

I strongly disagree, but this is moot since she didn't create the realm, and sending someone to a void with BFR isn't void manip. So chaos manip and void manip must go, too.

It doesn't really matter. If the translation is most naturally read by pre-existing gates, then that is what we will go with unless you produce other evidence that it was created by Selesia, which I assuming you do not have since it isn't in the blog. So the AP upgrade must go, too. It would've only been a creation feat regardless, but yeah the scans don't support this.

No, not necessarily. Matsubara may simply be the originator of the technique that can BFR somebody there. Unless a scan says Matsubara created it.

Most of this is already addressed by @NothingToDebateWith as well as @Breakdown perfectly, so no point in addressing most of this. But I will agree that I do not have any direct evidence of Selesia creating the Realm. So if she did not create the realm, then AP for Selesia will go away as well as her Void-Chaos Manip too.

I don't really see that as the case. Her being able to find the exit, yeah, maybe. But nothing implies she made it, or tore herself out. There just was an exit in the infinite gate.

Yep. The verse itself is also telling you that. And... no, no it actually isn't. Let me try to phrase this in a way that is easy to understand.

The exit itself is not stated to be infinite distance away. We don't even know what form it takes, only that it is stated to exist. By claiming you would need infinite speed to reach a non-infinite object within an infinite space, you instantly presume that you must cross infinite distance to reach anything in that space. This is provably not so, and a vast overpresumption of how space works.

So, to answer your question: I'm presuming neither, because it doesn't work like that.

I never said that "she made it, or tore herself out" and neither is that an argument (for now at least). But yes, you are correct in assessing that she did not make one or tore herself out and neither is the feat an Infinite Speed feat (Considering she never displayed infinite speed in base in the series). Because the feat is a Probability Manipulation hax where she pointed out an Exit Gate amongst Infinite Gates. There is another Probability Manipulation feat for Altair that lends credibility to this, but we are not discussing Altair and her hax here (that will come someday else), so I would like to refrain from this topic for the time being.

 

[RM97]

As for the latter comments involving possibilities and information and whatnot, I will discuss those things in later threads (Because it involves a lot of things). But as it stands now, I have said my piece and accepted some viewpoints of the opposition (Resistance to Body Control, Removal of Type 2 Acausality, Removal of AP and Chaos-Void Manip ONLY FOR Selesia). However, I would refrain from commenting any further if the arguments are just going to be ad-nauseam rehash of the same counter-arguments that were addressed by me and Dereck03 and Breakdown and others here, instead of bringing anything new.

 

[Deagonx]

Unless there is any rule that Realms/Dimensions do not constitute part of "Containment Item

"Into another object." Realms are not objects.

As for the rest, I am traveling and won't be able to go over this until Tuesday. Perhaps Ultima will provide input by that point but otherwise I will respond then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I never said that "she made it, or tore herself out" and neither is that an argument (for now at least). But yes, you are correct in assessing that she did not make one or tore herself out and neither is the feat an Infinite Speed feat (Considering she never displayed infinite speed in base in the series). Because the feat is a Probability Manipulation hax where she pointed out an Exit Gate amongst Infinite Gates. There is another Probability Manipulation feat for Altair that lends credibility to this, but we are not discussing Altair and her hax here (that will come someday else), so I would like to refrain from this topic for the time being.

I don't agree that there's infinite gates, nor would that inherently need to be probability hax. Refrain if you like, it doesn't bother me.

 

[Dereck03]

Literally Deagon's translator said it would be translated as "Infinite Gates" as the first option and "A gate of infinity" as the second option, and then went on to emphasize that "An infinite number of gates" is a bit interpretative, but correct though.

So to say that they disagree that there are infinite gates is simply going against what has been said.

This argument is really bad. Did you not see that there were multiple gates shown in the scene itself? Heck, I challenge anyone in here, admin or otherwise, to point out that the entire scene only showed a single gate instead of multiple gates. Not to mention, ExecutorN0 already pointed out the fact that Plural is not persistent in Japanese and that something can either mean Singular or Plural depending on context?

To be fair, it's something very easy to get wrong in Japanese, especially when it's a language that basically lacks the generic plural that is commonly used because in writing it deals more with the concept of something. So, of course, 無限の門 can both be translated as infinite gate/gate of infinite or infinite gates. Considering there was a very clear pattern of multiple gates appearing, I wonder why it was translated as infinite gate instead of infinite gates.

Did you also forget that your very own translation has the translator saying it can be translated into "Infinite Gates" and is correct? As such mention of "An Infinity Gate" in the anime is a translation issue on the Subtitle Part when it would be "Infinite Gates".

And yes, the anime scene showed a lot of gates not just one and based on excecutor's explanation it is correct.

 

[Dereck03]

Bambu only explained that a passing mention of "Concept" in a series will not give "Conceptual Manipulation" and in return, I showcased the context as how it stated that Physical-Magical attacks do not work on Altair and that attacking her concept is the only way, after which Selesia uses the Concept of Hachimon Tonkou for Ionion Aphoria to BFR and Seal Altair in that Realm. Logic dictates that to Attack Altair's Concept, they had to use a Concept (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) for their Power (Ionion Aphoria), thus, it is clear-cut Conceptual Manipulation which has also been previously agreed.

Yes, this is correct, Physical attacks don't work against Altair, she can only be damaged if the attack attacks her very concept itself. So the use of a a Conceptual Attack (The Concept of Hachimon Tonkou) to attack another Concept (Altair's Concept) cannot be used as "vague mention of the word concept that does not automatically give Cm" so as not to warrant Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[RM97]

Realms are not objects.

That just arguing semantics as Objects here are not limited to only physical items, but also include realms. Matter of fact, there are 1774 Sealing Users in this wiki, and out of which, there are many who can seal their targets into a different Realm/Dimension/Space/Universe/Reality, etc. Here are some examples of characters who can seal targets into realms and have Sealing listed on their pages:

• Doctor Strange Supreme from MCU, who can Seal and shrink the Infinity Stones, Killmonger, and Zola inside a pocket dimension.
• Antispiral from Gurren Lagann, who can trap you via Multiverse Labyrinth in a universe of Infinite possibilities from which you can never get out.
• Yan Sen from Cultivator Against Hero Society, who can trap his students inside a dimension.
• Blast from One Punch Man, who can trap beings like Garou inside a separate Dimension.
• Odin from Marvel Comics, who tore off the Tenth Realm from the World Tree and sealed it inside a universe-sized prison.
• Chloe O'Bell from Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, who sealed Veldora in Unlimited Imprisonment which has a complex numbers of spatial dimensions.
• Rimuru Tempest from Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, who can seal inside Complex Space/Imaginary space, using a sub-skill of Void God Azathoth, World of Chaos, which is an upgraded version of Rimuru stomach which is metaphysical space that works under the power of one's imagination. Rimuru is capable of locking a target inside and was able to isolate and seal Velgrynd from coming out, an Ultimate Existence and Ultimate Skill user.
• Mid-Tier Demons from DMC, who can lock and trap beings in a pocket dimension.
• BB from Fate/Extra CCC, who can seal foes in the Imaginary Number Space via Imaginary Spiritron Trap.
• Keysword from DBH, which sealed off the Demon Realm from time.
• Freddy Krueger from Nightmare on Elm Street, who can trap his victims in different immersive realms inside the Dream World.
• Various characters from Vampire Hunter D such as Sigma or Duchess Mizuki, who can trap D inside Four-Dimensional Sealed Realm or even a Space that Didn't Exist/Realm of Nothingness.

So yes, Sealing/Trapping inside a Realm/Dimension/Space/Universe/Reality is common in fiction and not limited to mere physical objects.

 

[Deagonx]

That just arguing semantics as Objects here are not limited to only physical items, but also include realms

Well, those are the standards. We have a different ability for sending someone to a realm, it's BFR.

I'm not surprised there are profiles that have it wrong, but that doesn't really change anything.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, those are the standards. We have a different ability for sending someone to a realm, it's BFR.

I'm not surprised there are profiles that have it wrong, but that doesn't really change anything.

It would be both. If they are prevented from escaping this realm in some manner, that's an active sealing effect placed on them (specially if they are shown capable of dimensional travel, like multiple of the examples brought up).

 

[Deagonx]

It would be both. If they are prevented from escaping this realm in some manner, that's an active sealing effect placed on them (specially if they are shown capable of dimensional travel, like multiple of the examples brought up).

Then we'd have to update the Sealing page to reflect that. At the moment its pretty clear that it refers to physical objects.

I agree that the word "sealed" is likely appropriate regardless but that's just not how the page is written.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Then we'd have to update the Sealing page to reflect that. At the moment its pretty clear that it refers to physical objects.

I agree that the word "sealed" is likely appropriate regardless but that's just not how the page is written.

I believe this example from the sealing page covers it nicely;

The second type of sealing involves removing or locking attributes or even concepts of a target. Examples include sealing a target's magic or ki energy, or even their movement or consciousness. This type of sealing denies the target use of these aspects rather than specifically placing them in another object. These effects can be temporary or permanent depending on the user.

Though of course, doesn't hurt to be even clearer about it

For now, I believe this would be sufficient tho.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah sealing is fine, I think our page for it is a bit limited as it is now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sealing can extend to more or less anything, one thinks. It's been so for a very long time, even if the page is outdated.

I still don't personally agree this is sealing, because nothing implies actually being sealed- just stuffed into an infinite gate where she managed to find the exit.

 

[Dereck03]

That is literally sealing because if Altair had not been able to found the exit she would have been trapped there forever which clearly suits the ability.