Raizel vs Accelerator

[GreatestSin]

^you are confusing some stuff: his automatic shield is on lightspeed but it only reflects the incoming attacks, but stuff that requires real manipulations (like he does in this fight) need to be done consciously, so his lightspeed autmoatic shield doesnt matter

he didnt calculate 25000 phenomena, he calcuated 25000 kinds of energy, this is totally different, what you say is that accel did 25000 kinds of different things at the same time while in canon he did one thing incredible fast,

in volume 3 if i remember correctly somewhere they mentioned it (or was in vol5 while saving LO? im not sure but it is canon that accel cant do two different things at the same time, this was also why he wasnt able to simply re-calculate the changed wind-flow in order to further stabilize/expand his plasma bomb, ) ^_^

? LOs brain was a simple brain, he didnt manipulate the network, he simply erased one week of her memories by setting her brain scan back to the old setting, either way, reizel can move accels blood in his entire body, lets say accelerator has the chance to keep up (which is highly doubtful due to the difference in conscious reaction speed), he would need to manipulate his own blood so that it works like always and this in his entire body, even in his brain he could need to control it, this isnt something easily done, i wouldnt be wondering if he needs all his concentration for this feat...

 

[Alakabamm]

You're the one confusing things. The energy feat is no different from what Raizel does. He uses his own energy to manipulate blood so it not only has to get past the vector shield (automatic) but also needs to be sufficiently complicated. Nowhere in the slightest have you met the burden of proof for it being complex enough to bypass Accel's shield in the slightest, which is what the context of that quote was.

Accounting for 25,000 different kinds of energy is not "one thing." Accelerator has far more calculation power than a supercomputer by canon so you are just downplaying him with that NLF.

And the last order thing was based off complexity as well. It is not canon in the slightest that he cannot do two things at once. Not even mentioning how you fail, once again, to meet the burden of proof for complexity in the slightest.

"Real calculations" don't need to be done consciously if the object Accel is contending against is known to him. Blood is known to him and nothing about Raizel's power is alien enough to even phase. When Kakine attacked Accel after he inputted Kakine's numerals into his shield, it was autoreflected. We see this many times versus revived Kakine.

In conclusion, Raizel has no way of touching Accel, no way of blitzing Accel and no way of overwhelming Accel.

 

[Alakabamm]

Also if your response to what I just said is "Accel can only calculate two things xD" then don't bother responding at all.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Sigh.

you are confusing some stuff: his automatic shield is on lightspeed but it only reflectsthe incoming attacks, but stuff that requires real manipulations (like he does in this fight) need to be done consciously, so his lightspeed autmoatic shield doesnt matter

No. otherwise he loses to people like Misaki and likely all other mindcontrol espers. he obviously has counters set up against all other known esper types, including those types that manipulate body fluids of sorts.

in volume 3 if i remember correctly somewhere they mentioned it (or was in vol5 while saving LO? im not sure but it is canon that accel cant do two different things at the same time, this was also why he wasnt able to simply re-calculate the changed wind-flow in order to further stabilize his plasma bomb, he would need to keep the current flow in order to stabilize the plasma and recalculate the changed wind and use this for the plasma, unfortunatly this requires 2 calcs at the same time) ^_^

Link me to where this is stated, with the things i've seen you say there is no way i'm accepting it at face value.

and again, no. the reason why he couldn't calculate the wind was because everytime he corrected it the sisters altered it. I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea it was because he had to keep the flow in order, and stabilize the plasma.

. ? LOs brain was a simple brain, he didnt manipulate the network, he simply erased one week of her memories by setting her brain scan back to the old setting, either way, reizel can move accels blood in his entire body, lets say accelerator has the chance to keep up (which is highly doubtful due to the difference in conscious reaction speed), he would need to manipulate his own blood so that it works like always and this in his entire body, even in his brain he could need to control it, this isnt something easily done, i wouldnt be wondering if he needs all his concentration for this feat...

Wow. the downplay is real. "Simply" redirected the electrons in her brain to remove a virus. with a concept he came up with on the fly after viewing the vaccine code ONCE, with the added pressure that if he got this wrong he would kill her himself and destroy the lives of the rest of the sisters by having them revolt and attack people. Accelerator accomplished something a lot more complex then what you're crediting him for

And again he obviously has hardcounters against people like Misaki who have similiar abilities to manipulate.

On another note, you really need to stop downplaying the series, I've seen it for a long time, either you do this intentionally or you just haven't read the series properly.

 

[GreatestSin]

^^i know there is something that takes raizels lifeforce away whenever he uses his power but there is no proof that something close to "moving energy" exists between raizel and the controlled blood, all we know is that it takes lifeforce to control them, not how he controls them in specific, so, no, the shield wouldnt play a role (and it is hinted that accel cant reflect curse-like things who work directly on a target)

it is "one thing", it works like that: "calculate unknown energy 1" -> done, "caclulate unknown energy 2" -> done, etc, accels immense calculation power allowed him to do this really really fast, but doing 2 different things at the same time is something different, "calculate unknown energy" and "compress air into plasma" are two calculations he would need to do at the same time, vol.3 showed, he cant :I

im not saying the LO feat wasnt complex but it had nothing to do with the network, and it wasnt like he recreated anything, he simply used a comparison between the old data and the current data in LOs head, and erased all data that wasnt the same as the old one, as simply as that, and forcing blood to do its normal work all over your body is something coming close to that, one mistake with the blood in your brain and you could kill yourself or turn into a cripple, it is complex what accel is fored to do, raizel on the other hand only needs to use the blood for chaos

"real calculations" arent used in fiction, raizels power to directly control blood is "curse-like" which means that accels shield wont even interact with it, or my memorys fail, did raizel ever showed to create a visible connection between him and the controlled blood? because otheriwse i dont see how the shield will be useful (exspecially with accelerators own speculation that it wouldnt work by such strange attacks) ^_^

^i dont think i downplay anything

 

[Alakabamm]

Raizel's power has never been stated or shown to be curse like. If you are saying it is I want a chapter and page number. Having read through Noblesse I am very confident about this.

There is also no reason to think it is vectorless. Do you really think a power - any power - can be justified as not having a force and a direction because you feel like it? It very clearly has a force (his energy) and a direction (his target). On that basis alone, it's reflected.

Accel said it wasn't useful on indirect attacks. Not "curses." Again, you are grossly misinterpreting the novels, which I suspect is on purpose. Desist in this or post quotes.

The way that you describe Accel's power working in the novel is not canon. What is canon is that he has an "automatic shield" that he can "input numerals into" which is only susceptible to attacks not of this world. What you have provided is not only baseless speculation but blatantly inconsistent speculation that even seems purposeful. So, again, desist or post quotes.

 

[GreatestSin]

^what makes you think there needs to be a energy connecting them in the first place? i asked twice if there was a scan where he needs to connect energy, otherwise it is very well possible to assume something like that, btw, even in Index the users of curse-like spells give their mana but it is still curse-like and the direction is the target, shouldnt they be reflected?

i dont (on purpose), the part where cendrillon attacked touma and co, accelerator said he could destroy things that directly attack but stuff that attacks like cendrillons attacks will be troublesome...

did i ever say he cant reflect otherwordly stuff with his shield? accel himself speculated that he cant stop curse-like attacks, as long as there is no hint to a real energy connection you cant assume otherwise out of convenience and raizels direct blood manipulation looks like exactly this kind of attacks

 

[Andykhang]

You misunderstand something here.

Even the normal human brain have the ability to parallel process many unconcious activity the human have to do everyday (to.. you know.. live), taking on multiple input came from the 5 main sense of the body and still be able to conciously interfering with the final result the body take. Here we're talking about a brain that can only compensate by a network of a even more special type of brain used to deal with bending reality to their wimp (that's what esper are in the series). Saying he can't do two think as one is a gross underestimation of his brain. The fact that he could calculate and redirect every single molecues of air and converge it into plasma showcase just how good his brain are in dealing with chaos theory.

 

[GreatestSin]

^of course he needs to be able to do more than one single stuff, but doing two calculations running at the same time? this is different than actively controlling breathing and running on a straight line... giving both caclulations equal attention (and note: calculations as in "calculations", he is doing math in his mind), is not something that can be learned, it requires to somehow pay attention at two entirely different processes without priotizing either one (like a computer does with parrellel processing) ^_^

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I dont have much in depth knowledge on the workings of accel powers but i do know raizel as for his powers having a vector or not his blood powers have never been explictly explained we know is raizel is the noblesse and he governs blood.When he is controlling the blood in someone it was never stated what he is doing just shown so we have no idea if its energy based or curse like he just controls blood and thats it pretty much.

 

[Coleworld12]

I've read the arguments as to why Raizel can't blood manipulate accelerator but in all honesty here they just seem like assumptions to me.

And Raizel doesn't need to worry about his vector shield he can perform a blood field the size of the surrounding area itself and erase his shield as well as accelerator from a distance

http://www.mangamint.com/noblesse-393-0?page=17

http://www.mangamint.com/noblesse-393-0?page=18

 

[Alakabamm]

The only assumption here is that a power with clear vectors has no vectors.

Also, your lack of understanding of how Accelerator's shield works is startling. Read about it at least before you comment.

 

[Coleworld12]

I did read the description for accelerators vector shield already

 

[Alakabamm]

and raizels direct blood manipulation looks like exactly this kind of attacks

Page. Number. And. Chapter.

Cendrillion never attacked Accelerator. Nobody has ever attacked Accelerator like that and gotten through. You're basing your entire argument not just off a theory that somehow, Raizel's powers lack vectors (which is crazy) but also that Accelerator is susceptible to those attacks (never confirmed in series).

Also, consider this. Misaki has a power which manipulates the fluid in brains to control people. Her power is based on AIM manipulation, whcih Accelerator can clearly reflect. It doesn't need to be seen to be reflected. The fact that Raizel is not a living incarnation of blood or a reality warper or anything that suggests that it isn't just long distance control of blood via infusion of energy tells me that I don't need to prove it is a vector. It's a vector until you prove it isn't.

 

[Coleworld12]

And I see no evidence as to why Raizel destroying his innards through his blood manipulation wouldn't work due to his vector manipulation?

 

[Alakabamm]

I did read the description for accelerators vector shield already

Not well enough to know that it can't be erased by something that isn't power nullification/very high tier reality warping (which is technically what Imagine Breaker is)/other hax. Raizel doesn't have those hax.

 

[GreatestSin]

The only assumption here is that a power with clear vectors has no vectors.

it really doesnt, your explanation of why raizels powers have vectors has nothing to do with vectors at all, if what you said would be the case than curse-like powers wouldnt work either because: there is a force (mana) and there is a direction (the target)

but also that Accelerator is susceptible to those attacks (never confirmed in series).

yes it isnt proven, but it is a logical assumption since vector-less attacks dont have vectors and therefore bypass the shield :I

The fact that Raizel is not a living incarnation of blood or a reality warper or anything that suggests that it isn't just long distance control of blood via infusion of energy

äähm, no, the burden of proof is on you, until now the whole blood control always worked directly, not the slightest hint that energy infusion was needed, you need to show that energy infusion is required, otherwise it goes how the webnovel shows it (direct control of blood without any form of energy connection whatsover)

 

[Alakabamm]

And I see no evidence as to why Raizel destroying his innards through his blood manipulation wouldn't work due to his vector manipulation?

Because he can block other people who do that kind of stuff. Misaki can manipulate body fluids, she is autoreflected. Other espers can manipulate water, they can't manipulate the water in Accel's body. Heck, not only is it the case that long distance control doesn't work, it is also the case that extradimensional control wouldn't work as well, up to the 11th dimension I believe.

 

[Coleworld12]

Not well enough to know that it can't be erased by something that isn't power nullification/very high tier reality warping (which is technically what Imagine Breaker is)/other hax. Raizel doesn't have those hax.

Existence erasure is one of the most haxxed abilities ever? It not being erased along with accelerator seems groundless to me.

 

[Alakabamm]

The only assumption here is that a power with clear vectors has no vectors.

it really doesnt, your explanation of why raizels powers have vectors has nothing to do with vectors at all, if what you said would be the case than curse-like powers wouldnt work either because: there is a force (mana) and there is a direction (the target)

A vector is a force and a direction. Cendrillion's powers don't have a direction, they have an area of effect. She is working with scalars, not vectors (supposedly). Again, you are intentionally misinterpreting the novels.

 

[Alakabamm]

Existence erasure is one of the most haxxed abilities ever? It not being erased along with accelerator seems groundless to me.

Not proven to the extent that you need to show it can effect Accelerator. Also, it has been blocked before, in the most recent chapters in fact.

 

[Coleworld12]

Could you show me him blocking existence erasure?

 

[Alakabamm]

Could you show me him blocking existence erasure?

Can you show me Raizel actually being confirmed to erase existences and not just killing people? Or him stopping regenerators from regenerating because his blood field - which should theoretically being erasing the existence of anything it touches - should be capable of that?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Could you show me him blocking existence erasure?

I really dont think blood field will work on acccel because of vector shields as blood fields can be destroyed

 

[GreatestSin]

A vector is a force and a direction. Cendrillion's powers don't have a direction, they have an area of effect. She is working with scalars, not vectors (supposedly). Again, you are intentionally misinterpreting the novels.

and doesnt a "area of effect" also have a force that goes "to the target"? again, this are not vectors, nor scalars...

 

[Alakabamm]

"Note while blood field is a pretty decent hax ability it is not broken.Blood fields are useless against those who are faster than the caster as they would just simply dodge it and it is also useless against those who are fast enough to react to and have enough power to destroy it. Even if you are in a blood field it doesn't automatically mean you will get erased from existence, you are erased when the blood field completely closes in on itself."

Who wrote this on Raizel's page? You're not allowed to add fan theories on how it works.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Could you show me him blocking existence erasure?

Can you show me Raizel actually being confirmed to erase existences and not just killing people? Or him stopping regenerators from regenerating because his blood field - which should theoretically being erasing the existence of anything it touches - should be capable of that?

While i am neutral on this battle i have to correct you here he has been shown to erase people and not just kill them i think we have already gone over this arguement somewhere else but anyway in the side story his blood phoenix fly through a guy and a sec latter he started dissappearing

 

[Alakabamm]

A vector is a force and a direction. Cendrillion's powers don't have a direction, they have an area of effect. She is working with scalars, not vectors (supposedly). Again, you are intentionally misinterpreting the novels.

and doesnt a "area of effect" also have a force that goes "to the target"? again, this are not vectors, nor scalars...

A scalar is anything with one dimension to it. The only dimension of Cendrillion's attack - again supposedly, from Accel's conjecture - is it's effect/its power. Accel was worried because it lacked the second dimension necessary to qualify it as a vector. If it was three dimensional Accel wouldn't have had a problem with it and if it was zero dimensional it wouldn't exist (by Accel's conjecture, again).

 

[Coleworld12]

Can you show me Raizel actually being confirmed to erase existences and not just killing people? Or him stopping regenerators from regenerating because his blood field - which should theoretically being erasing the existence of anything it touches - should be capable of that?

That will take some time although if you had problems with the ratings you should've made a thread about it.But until you provide evidence for him blocking existence erasure then my vote won't change on this and Raizel has many ways of winning this.Even through soul manipulation it shouldn't be anything tangible as well as mind control etc.Raizel is also faster so even if he had ways to counter it'd be futile .

 

[Alakabamm]

While i am neutral on this battle i have to correct you here he has been shown to erase people and not just kill them i think we have already gone over this arguement somewhere else but anyway in the side story his blood phoenix fly through a guy and a sec latter he started dissappearing

Regardless of who kills them, all Nobles turn into red dust when they die. See Rajak's death.

 

[Coleworld12]

I really dont think blood field will work on acccel because of vector shields as blood fields can be destroyed

He still has many ways of winning last I checked even taking that into consideration

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

"Note while blood field is a pretty decent hax ability it is not broken.Blood fields are useless against those who are faster than the caster as they would just simply dodge it and it is also useless against those who are fast enough to react to and have enough power to destroy it. Even if you are in a blood field it doesn't automatically mean you will get erased from existence, you are erased when the blood field completely closes in on itself."Who wrote this on Raizel's page? You're not allowed to add fan theories on how it works.

Also again i wrote that and it isnt a fan theory we have seen raizel say he is gonna erase people and he does it,and we have seen they only get completly erased when the blood field closes in on itself.And we know it doesnt work on top tiers because either they just dodge it or destroy it.

 

[Alakabamm]

That will take some time although if you had problems with the ratings you should've made a thread about it.But until you provide evidence for him blocking existence erasure then my vote won't change on this and Raizel has many ways of winning this.Even through soul manipulation it shouldn't be anything tangible as well as mind control etc.Raizel is also faster so even if he had ways to counter it'd be futile .

Let me break this one down:

"Blocking existence erasure" -> existence erasure which is dependent on contact, based off the fact that it has gotten blocked.

"Soul Manipulation" -> that was sort of like a power infusion thing (you are referring to "awakening," correct?) and probably needs contact.

"Mind Control" -> Accel is explictly immune, to a level of complexity.

"Faster" -> not faster than his shield

 

[Coleworld12]

Celestial Pegasus

Do you know of when blood field distorted space and time that should be evidence of reality warping iirc but going through 300+ chapters is a pain

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Celestial Pegasus
Do you know of when blood field distorted space and time that should be evidence of reality warping iirc but going through 300+ chapters is a pain

I think that had something to do with raizel breaking lukedonia barrier and blood field seems to be some sort of special space.But it isnt apllicable in battle.

 

[Coleworld12]

Alakabamm

It's not dependent on contact IIRC it just surrounds you completely and erases you then and there I could be wrong though

I will look into the soul manipulation as well

Based off what?

How fast are his shields exactly?

 

[Alakabamm]

Alakabamm
It's not dependent on contact IIRC it just surrounds you completely and erases you then and there I could be wrong though

I will look into the soul manipulation as well

Based off what?

How fast are his shields exactly?

"Contact" -> I know its description and appearance but in recent chapters the traitor elders blocked the one from Erga pretty handily.

"Based off what" -> https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shokuhou_Misaki

"How fast" -> it blocks light so at least lightspeed. Also, it's not shields but a single, automatic shield that is active even when is asleep.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Coleworld blood field is based on contact many people have been in a blood field and have not been automatically erased its not an instant kill move it has to close in on the person then they are erase though blood phoenix seems somewhat different

 

[Coleworld12]

Celestial Pegasus

I see

Everyone here /

How about we backpedall here

You guys stated that raizels blood manipulation wouldn't work because accelerator could counter it right?

How can he counter someone hundreds of times faster than him?

Because this fight is dependent on who strikes first manipulating his blood and destroying his organs is something Raizel should be able to do before accelerator can even react?

 

[Alakabamm]

Automatic shield, functions at lightspeed.