-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Raizel vs Accelerator
- Thread starter Kawaru_Shotomata
- Start date
- Status
- 19,167
- 6,456
I knew people would start doubting rais ability to control blood eventually anyway here is proof he can and has done so.This is the raws from chapter 400
Raizel also waved his hand and caused a guys arm to explode in the side story
And he made ignes eyes explode
Why raizel doesnt use this ability more often is pis its too broken he would finish his fights too quick if he used it all the while.
Raizel also waved his hand and caused a guys arm to explode in the side story
And he made ignes eyes explode
Why raizel doesnt use this ability more often is pis its too broken he would finish his fights too quick if he used it all the while.
- 19,167
- 6,456
Another instance of blood control i forgot
- 2,684
- 98
his blood control is high level, that means if there are other ways to win raizel wont easily use taxing attacks ^_^ (at least this seems to be the case)..Senkoro said:
as for the calculation: accelerator still needs to recognize that his blood is controlled in order to counter it, accelerator didnt show any conscious reaction feats that would allow him to recognize the blood control and keep his blood in the correct ways :/
PS: since a lot of the wings are unknown i dont like to use them in a vsbattle exspecially because there is still this unknown-force power that sometimes pops up and gives overkills whenever accelerators wings along are not able to defeat the enemy
- 153
- 1
I know he can control blood to some degree but it doesn't seem like he can do it all the time, for example in the case of the two nobles resis or something he couldn't control their blood, he used the blood fields to kill them. He probably can only use it under certain conditions.
- 19,167
- 6,456
I told you its pis what i just showed you in the first scan was raizel controlling the blood of lagsus who at that point was strong enough to push raizel back so strength doesnt seem to correlate to resistance.You have to look at it from a story standpoint you cant have raizel just one shotting his opponents too quickly though he does that anyway but you need to build tension which is why raizel uses blood phoenix and blood field instead of just making his enemies explode as those moves drain his life force which adds tension if there was no consequence to raizel using his power it would be boring as you already know he is not only overpowered, he is always going to win and there is no drawback to using his power so all he does is one shot his enemies.See what i am saying the author intentionaly limits raizel from using his full abilities as it would be a detriment to the story.Senkoro said:
- 2,684
- 98
i dont say that they shouldnt be used but that it is not really useful, we can only be sure about the ability of him where he uses the wings a blades, any other ability (like the range of his vetor control or the limits of his "unknown force" and its specifications) are totally blurry or straight out unknown, this is why ywach isnt used either, his allmighty has to many parts that require speculationSenkoro said:
^there is also the possiblity of blood control being far more taxing than what we thought of :/ plus raizel used blood pheonix since he wanted to give the fallen nobles a traditional execution
- 153
- 1
^there is also the possiblity of blood control being far more taxing than what we thought of :/ plus raizel used blood pheonix since he wanted to give the fallen nobles a traditional execution
^ Well that second part sounds like speculation to me. Either way we do have some idea for the power of the angels and telesma. Index stated that Accelerator's black wings looked alot like telesma, so we can assume that his angel wings are some variation of telesma. Accelerator without wings was able to take on kazikiri and 50% gabriel while teaming up with Kazikiri even though he couldn't completely control Gabriel's vectors due to her being an angel.
At the very least Accelerator was able to block an attack that could have destroyed Eurasia without using his vector manipulation. Based on what was observed by Accelerators black wings, we can surmise that his Angel wings should be just as strong if not stronger at destroying matter meaning a single touch from them would be fatal. They had also stetched for up to hundreds of meters in length.
A for the argument that it comes from a story perspective, that doesn't really hold very much value because you have no way to prove that. It's complete speculation.
^ Well that second part sounds like speculation to me. Either way we do have some idea for the power of the angels and telesma. Index stated that Accelerator's black wings looked alot like telesma, so we can assume that his angel wings are some variation of telesma. Accelerator without wings was able to take on kazikiri and 50% gabriel while teaming up with Kazikiri even though he couldn't completely control Gabriel's vectors due to her being an angel.
At the very least Accelerator was able to block an attack that could have destroyed Eurasia without using his vector manipulation. Based on what was observed by Accelerators black wings, we can surmise that his Angel wings should be just as strong if not stronger at destroying matter meaning a single touch from them would be fatal. They had also stetched for up to hundreds of meters in length.
A for the argument that it comes from a story perspective, that doesn't really hold very much value because you have no way to prove that. It's complete speculation.
- 2,684
- 98
^you mean the taxing part or the one where i said "raizel did it in order to give the fallen novles a traditional death"?
from what i remember accelerators wings are more dark matter than telesma, this was mentioned in Vol.15 and 19 i think but it doesnt realy matter, as for the strength of thevector shield, theoretically the strength of a attack shouldnt even matter, afterall accelerator changes the direction with the ability to choose a interaction with the force of said attack, but by direct blood control the shield will be useless since there is nothing moving from raizel to accelerators blood
true, the wings in WW3 had a hundred meers length or so, but im not sure if this matters much with direct blood control :/ and yeah, his wings an destroy matter on contact (or slice it)...
the taxing argument?
from what i remember accelerators wings are more dark matter than telesma, this was mentioned in Vol.15 and 19 i think
but it doesnt realy matter, as for the strength of thevector shield, theoretically the strength of a attack shouldnt even matter, afterall accelerator changes the direction with the ability to choose a interaction with the force of said attack, but by direct blood control the shield will be useless since there is nothing moving from raizel to accelerators blood true, the wings in WW3 had a hundred meers length or so, but im not sure if this matters much with direct blood control :/ and yeah, his wings an destroy matter on contact (or slice it)...
the taxing argument?
- 19,167
- 6,456
@Senkoro what you are saying about the blood control being taxing which is why he doesnt use it more often does make some sense however he has been seen using it multiple times withing a single battle so it doesnt seem as taxing as his blood phoenix as when he uses blood phoenix he is drained afterwards there is no sign of fatigue after he uses his blood control its very apparent in the scans i posted.So i find him not using it more often has to be pis as when he does uses his blood control it doesnt seem to be taxing on his body at all.I agree with what you said about him using blood phoenix on the traitors to give them a noble death though.He did have a level of compassion for them and he probably didnt want to kill them but as the noblesse he had to so he gave them noble deaths.
- 153
- 1
Thing about blood control is we don't know the mechanism by which it works. Does Raizel have to know where someone is to control their blood, or can he do it by looking at their picture and kill them like Kira, does he have unlimited range, or can he only do it when he is close.
Lastly, the thing about blood is that it's made up of molecules. Molecules are goverend by electromagnetic interactions and strong and weak nuclear forces. All forces have vectors meaning accelerator is able to control the blood within his own body. If you think about it he probably has to control all of his body when he's flying and making turns at Mach 24. If he doesn't his brain would have a velocity of Mach 24 while his skull would have a velocity of 0 (assuming he just stops instantneously).
That would create a massive amount of force in his brain killing him. However if he can simply redirect that force elsewhere, or control the electromagnetic interactions so that they are always in the same relative position of each other, he can survive.
This is assuming Raizel can control the blood of someone who has divine properties.
The first time Accelerator created his black wings Index said it looked like Telesma, the second time Accelerator incoporated Kakine's dark matter into his wings.
Lastly, the thing about blood is that it's made up of molecules. Molecules are goverend by electromagnetic interactions and strong and weak nuclear forces. All forces have vectors meaning accelerator is able to control the blood within his own body. If you think about it he probably has to control all of his body when he's flying and making turns at Mach 24. If he doesn't his brain would have a velocity of Mach 24 while his skull would have a velocity of 0 (assuming he just stops instantneously).
That would create a massive amount of force in his brain killing him. However if he can simply redirect that force elsewhere, or control the electromagnetic interactions so that they are always in the same relative position of each other, he can survive.
This is assuming Raizel can control the blood of someone who has divine properties.
The first time Accelerator created his black wings Index said it looked like Telesma, the second time Accelerator incoporated Kakine's dark matter into his wings.
- 19,167
- 6,456
As for the mechanism of raizels blood control there isnt much known about it what we do know is raizel and the lord govern blood.And he has been shown controlling blood multiple times and he also knew m-21 had a werewolf heart by just looking at him so his control over blood is great.As for how it works from what was shown he only needs to look at you to control your blood.As i said before though i am neutral on this fight but leaning more towards it being inconclusive.
- 2,684
- 98
@senkoro
as far as i know he can control it at least by seeing the victim in question... and than it is simply a matter of him doing it
i know that, but accelerator does not have a conscious reaction speed feat that would allow us to think that (if raizel uses blood conrol and smashes his brain) he could counter the noblesses moves and guarantee his bloods normal functions, his shield is automatically at lightspeed but not his mind itself...
why shouldnt it? if the story never mentioned any immunity to blood control thanks to divinity i dont think assuming this is allowed
as far as i know Index speculated that it was like telesma but in vol.15 word of god stated that it was dark matter (making indexs character statement invalid) ^_^
as far as i know he can control it at least by seeing the victim in question... and than it is simply a matter of him doing it
i know that, but accelerator does not have a conscious reaction speed feat that would allow us to think that (if raizel uses blood conrol and smashes his brain) he could counter the noblesses moves and guarantee his bloods normal functions, his shield is automatically at lightspeed but not his mind itself...
why shouldnt it? if the story never mentioned any immunity to blood control thanks to divinity i dont think assuming this is allowed
as far as i know Index speculated that it was like telesma but in vol.15 word of god stated that it was dark matter (making indexs character statement invalid) ^_^
- 153
- 1
Well you see there are two different wings. The Dark matter wings are the one that Kakine used, which accelerator borrowed but Accelerator himself has black wings that are like telesma. they were from different volumes overall.
Anyway there's no reason to think Accelerator can't control his own blood, he done it before with others such as Misaka, himself, even while unconcious with Yoshikawa I think it was, and the tier of characters that Raizel has controlled blood isn't comparable to accelerator.
In short the vectors in accelerator's blood, he could just cancel them out by negating them to zero while using that kinetic energy to do something trival like breaking the ground or heating up the air.
Anyway there's no reason to think Accelerator can't control his own blood, he done it before with others such as Misaka, himself, even while unconcious with Yoshikawa I think it was, and the tier of characters that Raizel has controlled blood isn't comparable to accelerator.
In short the vectors in accelerator's blood, he could just cancel them out by negating them to zero while using that kinetic energy to do something trival like breaking the ground or heating up the air.
- 2,684
- 98
^i know he has two, one coming from hsi negative emotions which primary result in his being wanting to destroy and the other in his emotions to protect, btw, accel never "borrowed" wings, plus, like i said, "telesma" was Index's theory, Word of God in Vol15 stated that it is Dark Matter ^_^
either way, back to topic: if accel could be able to react to the near instant blood control than i would agree, but you seem to ignore the most important factor, and this is: reacting speed, accelerator never showed reaction speed which would allow us to think that he can react his blood is controlled (and im talking about the blood in the brain which can be destroyed or heavily injured in a second)...
either way, back to topic: if accel could be able to react to the near instant blood control than i would agree, but you seem to ignore the most important factor, and this is: reacting speed, accelerator never showed reaction speed which would allow us to think that he can react his blood is controlled (and im talking about the blood in the brain which can be destroyed or heavily injured in a second)...
- 153
- 1
Well accelerator's calculation speed isn't the same as his reaction speed. If he had to be even concious of doing that he wouldn't have been able to prevent Yoshikawa from dying after she was shot through the heart. He placed his finger creating an invisible tube that made blood flow from one end to the other while he himself fell unconcious. That means he doesn't have to really react to his blood being controlled, it can be completely passive for him.
Either way his Angel wings aren't likely made from Dark Matter. If I had to say probably something similar to Gabriel's wings.
Either way his Angel wings aren't likely made from Dark Matter. If I had to say probably something similar to Gabriel's wings.
- 5,232
- 708
Accelerator controlled his own bloodflow like he did Yoshikawa unconciously when he was Attacked by Aiwass. whether it's reaction speed or not (it's likely just passive) means he could easily do the same here.
- 2,684
- 98
not really, his shiedl is lightspeed and happens automatically(even while sleeping), but manipulation requires his mind to process and think, conscious reaction is needed in order to counter whatever raizel would try to do...LordAizenSama said:
- 5,232
- 708
umm... he was unconcious. while doing it.
- 2,684
- 98
i always found that part a bit strange, the LN never really said how he did it (exspecially the "touching"-part) and the manga only showed this http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/2949/06-033.0/compressed/b23.jpg, while i agree that it seems unconscious it still doesnt mean that he can automatically autocorrect any manipulation raizel tries on his brain, this would be NLF :/LordAizenSama said:
PS: in aiwass's case it was the same, he didnt allow blood to go through his sliced open stomach
- 209
- 16
I think it is unconscious too but not NLF tier, he can't move scalar.
- 2,684
- 98
i mean that if we assume he can simply counter all of raizels attempts of blood manipulation because he managed to do simple tasks once (mostlikely) unconscious and once at his own body under pain, than it would go into NLF :/Aurugermil said:
btw, i didnt think about this but how actually would accelerator know that his blood is manipulated before seeing a effect? he never showed any ability to detect his own bodys health status :/
- 209
- 16
Not really NLF, it is simply that Accel hax is better than Raizel even if both of them placed around the same tier in this site.
Maybe Raizel can control a bit of Accel blood before Accel take full control of his own blood, maybe Raizel won't be able to control a single drop of Accel blood. Either way Accel win this fight. His Angel Wing will give him massive advantage too.
Maybe Raizel can control a bit of Accel blood before Accel take full control of his own blood, maybe Raizel won't be able to control a single drop of Accel blood. Either way Accel win this fight. His Angel Wing will give him massive advantage too.
- 2,684
- 98
it is, you cant simply assume that because a character managed to one thing easily that he can do the same thing on a way higher level too, it is as saying: saitama destroys a building easily, therefore he can destroy the moon or the planet too :/Aurugermil said:
he can control his blood and accelerator shouldnt even be able to recognie it since there are no nerves inside the human body, that means a single moment and accels brain would be a mess, like i said before, raizel is a natural enemy for accel...
the only usable power of the wing-mode (until now) is the slicing ability, any other power is not defined in any way, the extend of his remote-vector-control and the range of things he can do are unknown, the unknown-force also is hard to use since we dont know what it actually is :/
- 209
- 16
The things related with Accelerator is because of An Involuntary Movement, better known as AIM (þäíÞç¬ÞªÜAIM Mujikaku (AIM), lit. "No Awareness"), is a term used to refer to the phenomenon in which an esper involuntarily produces an invisible energy field around the esper. For Accelerator case, this and his Personal Reality manifested as Redirection where it made him into an androgynous boy with pale skin due to how it messed up the ultraviolet rays and reduce outside interference to his hormone. it is an automatic unconscious process, that's why shooting him from the blind spot won't work, much less trying to control his blood inside his body.
I haven't read up all the discussion above but I think Alakabamm already explained these stuff enough that people should realize by now that Raizel can't win against Accelerator.
I haven't read up all the discussion above but I think Alakabamm already explained these stuff enough that people should realize by now that Raizel can't win against Accelerator.
- 2,684
- 98
im well aware of accelerators abilitys, and im well aware that the part with: much less trying to control his blood inside his body is wrong (or at least not always true) depending on how blood control is done (with energy connection between medium and user or not) it can be either blocked or not,
the thing is, raizel can control the blood in his brain and kill him in the next moment, it is true that if the blood is controlled like Amon (from korra) does it than accelerator would have no problems to retake control, but like others already showed in scans raizel can simply smash organs without lifting a finger,
and there is still the problem with realizing it, not only does accelerato not have the required conscious reaction speed he also has to realize that someone manipulates his blood before his brain is destroyed (which requires some kind of sensing ability which he ddoesnt have)...
PS: the thing you quoted: it is an automatic unconscious process only refers to his vector shield which redirects incoming harmful things, but direct blood control overcomes this defense so it is useless...
the thing is, raizel can control the blood in his brain and kill him in the next moment, it is true that if the blood is controlled like Amon (from korra) does it than accelerator would have no problems to retake control, but like others already showed in scans raizel can simply smash organs without lifting a finger,
and there is still the problem with realizing it, not only does accelerato not have the required conscious reaction speed he also has to realize that someone manipulates his blood before his brain is destroyed (which requires some kind of sensing ability which he ddoesnt have)...
PS: the thing you quoted: it is an automatic unconscious process only refers to his vector shield which redirects incoming harmful things, but direct blood control overcomes this defense so it is useless...
- 209
- 16
Is this a thinly veiled Raizel wank?
Accelerator feats and fine control of vector manipulation both conscious and unconscious is better than Raizel. You are just repeating questions about things that Alakabamm already explained up there.
Accelerator feats and fine control of vector manipulation both conscious and unconscious is better than Raizel. You are just repeating questions about things that Alakabamm already explained up there.
- 2,684
- 98
not really, i bring up logical arguments while you guys keep ignoring them, sorry but it gets annoying, bring me facts that accelerator can even recognize that the blood in his brain is manipulated, otherwise this will end in a single use of raizels powers :IAurugermil said:
^i do, and if i can say, i think even better than some others :/
- 153
- 1
^ It's because the arguments you bring up are largely superficial. Raizel has never displayed the ability of controlling blood of really strong opponents, at most weaker nobles.
Raizel's calculating power is nowhere near that of accelerators. He is able to manipulate blood of himself and others passively even while unconcious while there was a hole in his head. He doesn't even need to use his brain to calculate anywhere, he has angel wings to do that for him.
From what I see you seem to be a big anti-index person. Just saying. Not sure what even better than others means
Raizel's calculating power is nowhere near that of accelerators. He is able to manipulate blood of himself and others passively even while unconcious while there was a hole in his head. He doesn't even need to use his brain to calculate anywhere, he has angel wings to do that for him.
From what I see you seem to be a big anti-index person. Just saying. Not sure what even better than others means
- 2,684
- 98
^how do you define "strong"? does the strength to destroy a country with a punch give you immunity to blood control? in which world is this a argument? i already gave arguments why raizel is able to do it, sound and logical arguments btw which are somehow ignored...plus, someone else already mentioned that it is due to CIS that raizel didnt use it on all his enemys, and the times he used blood pheonix on the nobles it was because he wanted to give them a traditional death despite them becoming evil...
what has calculation power has to do with raizels ability? if this was a real way to argument than accelerator should be able to beat kumogawa easily :I and, while he showed limited blood control in weakened stages you cant give him supercontrol of all blood because of that... and for calculation with brain or not: if he doesnt have a brain he is dead, so im not talking about raizel stopping accelerator from calculation but about raizel killing accelerator, the wings never showed to substitite the brain, and to boot: nobody gave me a answer as to how accelerator is able to know that the blood in his brain is controlled, the moment raizel uses it he would turn the brain into a mess, so how can he calculate a counter (which is not even taking into account that accelerator still must react to the blood manipulation consciously (that means: he must understand that someone is controlling his blood))...
give me examples where i downplayed or not supported a index character without more or less sound arguments? as far as i remember if someone showed me i was wrong i accepted it, dont say stuff about people because you saw someone else saying the same. Just saying.
PS: what i mean with "better than others" is that i have read up to NT10 or so, so im more than well aware of any feat accelerator has shown in wing-mode or not...
what has calculation power has to do with raizels ability? if this was a real way to argument than accelerator should be able to beat kumogawa easily :I and, while he showed limited blood control in weakened stages you cant give him supercontrol of all blood because of that... and for calculation with brain or not: if he doesnt have a brain he is dead, so im not talking about raizel stopping accelerator from calculation but about raizel killing accelerator, the wings never showed to substitite the brain, and to boot: nobody gave me a answer as to how accelerator is able to know that the blood in his brain is controlled, the moment raizel uses it he would turn the brain into a mess, so how can he calculate a counter (which is not even taking into account that accelerator still must react to the blood manipulation consciously (that means: he must understand that someone is controlling his blood))...
give me examples where i downplayed or not supported a index character without more or less sound arguments? as far as i remember if someone showed me i was wrong i accepted it, dont say stuff about people because you saw someone else saying the same. Just saying.
PS: what i mean with "better than others" is that i have read up to NT10 or so, so im more than well aware of any feat accelerator has shown in wing-mode or not...
- 153
- 1
It's also the other way round. Raizel showed limited control of controlling other's blood directly. Passing that off as PIS has no basis whatsoever. You haven't proved the author's intentions, and if he could control his opponents blood directly he would have no need to use blood field on the weakling characters he fought in earlier chapters.
Besides, Accelerator can control vectors without touching them in angel mode, Raizel is the really arrogant type. Accelerator can just cause his brain to explode by manipulating his vectors. On the other hand Raizel has 0 defense against vector manipulation. Accelerator has shown limited blood control which is matched with Raizel's limited blood control. Give 1 example where Raizel manipulated blood of a character on his level? Not the werewolf guy, he nearly died against someone who accelerator would stomp.
Besides, Accelerator can control vectors without touching them in angel mode, Raizel is the really arrogant type. Accelerator can just cause his brain to explode by manipulating his vectors. On the other hand Raizel has 0 defense against vector manipulation. Accelerator has shown limited blood control which is matched with Raizel's limited blood control. Give 1 example where Raizel manipulated blood of a character on his level? Not the werewolf guy, he nearly died against someone who accelerator would stomp.
- 19,167
- 6,456
Having just been observing arguements from both sides i am just seeing a bunch of circular arguements but i find greatest sins reasoning more compelling as i have yet to see the other side of the arguement provide any definitive evidence to support accelarator being able to resist his blood being controlled besides showing some limited form of controlling his own blood. This is what i think i dont know a lot about accelarator but unless his vector shields have been stated to passively reflect blood control he isnt winning this.If he hasnt shown any defenses to blood control besides his own limited control over blood it is a falicious arguement to assume he can do something he has never been shown to. As for raizel his blood control is clearly not limited as he has been shown to control blood very easily and without even touching someone know exactly that a foreign organ is in their body.
@Senkoro your arguement that raizel has never used his blood control on someone on his level and only uses it on weaker characters is a faulty arguement for 2 reasons: 1 he used it on lagsus who with the blood stone was able to not only push raizel back but cut off one of his blood wings, and 2 durability and destructive capacity is irrelevant when dealing with blood manipulation as it bypasses durability. We have seen raizel use it on others on his level so saying he cant do it is completely wrong and again durability is irrelevant to these sorts of abilities even if it is limited.
So this is what i say show evidence of accelarator resisting his blood being manipulated or concede that he cant resist raizel controlling his blood. If you can show with specific evidence of him resisting his blood being controlled to the level that raizel has been shown to do then raizel's abiliy wont work. So this comes do to whether there is definitive evidence of accelarator possesing blood control resistance which if he does then this is a stalemate as raizel cant hurt accelerator and raizel is too fast for accelerator to tag. If there is no evidence to justify accelerator resisting raizel blood control then raizel wins. Note there has to be proof that not only can accelarator resist his blood being controlled but either his defense to it is automatic or he can do it fast enough before raizel makes his brain explode.
@Senkoro your arguement that raizel has never used his blood control on someone on his level and only uses it on weaker characters is a faulty arguement for 2 reasons: 1 he used it on lagsus who with the blood stone was able to not only push raizel back but cut off one of his blood wings, and 2 durability and destructive capacity is irrelevant when dealing with blood manipulation as it bypasses durability. We have seen raizel use it on others on his level so saying he cant do it is completely wrong and again durability is irrelevant to these sorts of abilities even if it is limited.
So this is what i say show evidence of accelarator resisting his blood being manipulated or concede that he cant resist raizel controlling his blood. If you can show with specific evidence of him resisting his blood being controlled to the level that raizel has been shown to do then raizel's abiliy wont work. So this comes do to whether there is definitive evidence of accelarator possesing blood control resistance which if he does then this is a stalemate as raizel cant hurt accelerator and raizel is too fast for accelerator to tag. If there is no evidence to justify accelerator resisting raizel blood control then raizel wins. Note there has to be proof that not only can accelarator resist his blood being controlled but either his defense to it is automatic or he can do it fast enough before raizel makes his brain explode.
- 8,675
- 5,560
@Celestial Pegasus break up your walls of text because they're impossible to read.
I'm closing this thread. It's going to be inconclusive forever and the same arguments keep on being thrown around.
I'm closing this thread. It's going to be inconclusive forever and the same arguments keep on being thrown around.
- Status
