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Also, Raiden never hit Armstrong anywhere where there wasn't a visible change in his skin. Not before the fight got serious. So I don't know what you mean.
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Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)
- Thread starter ShivaShakti
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We cant tell under a shirt, but Armstrong's hands and head went black even though the former was nowhere near the punches
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But it wasn't really? Armstrong was suppressed, he was contending with a casual Armstrong, which even Raiden could (barely) do.
It's only when Armstrong said haha **** it that Raiden's attacks starting becoming completely useless at the end of phase 1.
The Armstrong that Sam fought and the Armstrong that Raiden fought in phase 2 are very, very different beasts.
Also noteworthy and it should probably be mentioned, but in phase 1 Armstrong has builtin hyperarmor, nothing Raiden can do can even stun or stagger him or make him flinch. Not the case in phase 2 regardless of what Raiden does.
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Raiden's fight with Sam. I edited it to clarify.
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Gameplay segments mate. But even then.
And irrelevant. Even in gameplay, Raiden's physical strikes do like 5x more compared to phase 1, without Muramusa. Absolutely everything is potrayed in such a way that indicates Raiden is doing more damage compared to before.
Or do you mean with Muramusa? Raiden smacks him with it 3 times in QTE's in normal skin tone spots in phase 2 and it pings off.
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I mean, he's shown the ability to cover his entire body in the DLC.
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Oh actually something of note, Armstrong is designed to initiate QTE's at various points in time, the two important QTE's happen early on and a bit under halfway through the fight.
The fight dragging on doesn't quite matter as Armstrong is designed to initiate them at certain stages based on hp and damage.
The fight dragging on doesn't quite matter as Armstrong is designed to initiate them at certain stages based on hp and damage.
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True
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DLC came out months later though? In the base game that's never seen and even seemingly impossible, as said, you could likely just rip his models and textures if you want. Probably because the game was already under lots of pressure and had to be reworked multiple times from the ground up.
Though, this doesn't effect my point.
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...That doesn't make the events any less canon. They still happened and we've been using the DLC to argue just fine up to now.
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Never said they weren't. But we're arguing about game limitations and all that shit at the moment correct? There's a pretty big difference between using the DLC to argue and using a new model created for the DLC with the extra month of time they had to somehow discredit the base game Armstrong not having a model like that even though the base game still acts and behaves as if Raiden is hitting him in protected spots with the effects, of which includes effects used when Raiden actively does hit spots visually protected as well such as pieces of the nano's being launched.
That is to say, in function and canonically, when Raiden does something like hit him ten times in the side, there's no difference compared to Armstrong hitting him in the chest. (Which he does fyi, the flip kick has him kicking him not only in the chest but even briefly the nano center, it hurts Armstrong).
And if it wasn't obvious enough, in QTE's we even have Raiden hitting Armstrong in the head with Muramusa, while it's not visually blackened and protected, despite that we hear a cling sound, sparks, nano shrapnel get tossed upon the impact even though visually, it wasn't black even though in function it was identical.
Here, Raiden tags Armstrong with the Muramusa, it pings, there's metal sfx, sparks, nano shrapnel and so on, but he's not visually darkened when hit.
Yet. It's identical to the arm hits too fyi, which visually are blackened, 100% functionally identical. And both are indeed scripted.
kinda leads me to believe any visual discrepancy with Armstrong's skin isn't meant to be taken as a "he's not protected", especially when we see they're functionally identical.
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I mean, you are free to think that, but I did go over this in my first post.
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The QTE where Armstrong no-sells the rapid-fire punches is in no way comparable to the QTE where Raiden punches Armstrong in the face.
The first QTE was completely visible by Armstrong and he could readily react in time to completely harden his chest.
The second QTE had Raiden narrowly dodge Armstrong's punch which caused the former's own punch to connect, something he did not react to.
We see multiple times, both during cutscenes, QTEs and gameplay that Armstrong can control the areas he could harden without needing to be hit in that area. We also see that when he hardens one area, the rest of his body is left unhardened. We have never actually seen his whole body hardened before. It is entirely possible he used all his nanomachines to block Raiden's rapid-fire punches but not the unexpected punch to the face.
Another piece of evidence that supports the fact that Armstrong can't block two places at once is when Raiden impaled his abdomen when the nanomachines were in his upper body.
This is the only time outside of gameplay where Raiden does any form of visible harm and it's where his body isn't blackened.
Also please explain to me where the x10 AP gap comes from.
The first QTE was completely visible by Armstrong and he could readily react in time to completely harden his chest.
The second QTE had Raiden narrowly dodge Armstrong's punch which caused the former's own punch to connect, something he did not react to.
We see multiple times, both during cutscenes, QTEs and gameplay that Armstrong can control the areas he could harden without needing to be hit in that area. We also see that when he hardens one area, the rest of his body is left unhardened. We have never actually seen his whole body hardened before. It is entirely possible he used all his nanomachines to block Raiden's rapid-fire punches but not the unexpected punch to the face.
Another piece of evidence that supports the fact that Armstrong can't block two places at once is when Raiden impaled his abdomen when the nanomachines were in his upper body.
This is the only time outside of gameplay where Raiden does any form of visible harm and it's where his body isn't blackened.
Also please explain to me where the x10 AP gap comes from.
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Let's examine Armstrong vs Jetstream Sam... oh wait! That fight causes the whole two places at once argument to crumple in on itself
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You're, right, it isn't comparable, because in the former Armstrong nosells hundreds of blows and in the latter he completely fails to no sell shit. Glad you agree.
"He could react in time", holy shit we're still doing this. It's clear as day you have absolutely no idea how any of this works do you? Stop acting like Armstrong has any say in if his nano's defend him or not, they'd do it regardless.
And yet Armstrong still knew the punch was coming. It's not like he was blitzed, in fact both his and Raiden's punch are the same speed here.
Sure, and? Doesn't change the fact that they also harden automatically without his control regardless of his choices as it's explained several times over for to be exactly the case.
That's, actually not what's happening? At all? Wright actually brought up an example in the DLC where exactly that happens and his whole body is hardened so, not actually true and demonstrably false, the only issue here is that it's not shown in the base game for reasons completely outside of whether or not he can or cant. Point is we do know, canonically at least, that his whole body can harden and in lore there's no "his nano's can only be in certain places at once". Because that's untrue, his nano's can be outsped but that's about it.
You really need an argument that doesnt rely on you trying to say it happened in such a way because of some completely unsupported if not outright contradicted reason and then pretending that it's absolutely the case when it's very clearly not.
Like it or not, Armstrong tanks a hundred punches from Raiden, is completely fine. He also tanks a punch to the face, completely fine, wow who could've guessed. Oh but because he's not 100% visibly hardened it means that the attacks afterward don't count is that it? Even though I can point out examples where even when it's not hardened it still does **** all to him which still shows a blatant increase in Raiden's physical blows.
i mean, you'd be completely wrong and I can't believe we're actually about to argue that too.
Wrong, hell, an example has even been shown in a prerendered cutscene in this very thread.
?????????????????????????
There's no way you're actually debating this with me and you don't know this, ignoring it's common knowledge, it's been brought up numerous times in this very thread.
Again Ovens. Because for some reason you fail to actually retort shit that actually matters. And you've side stepped certain points every single time (Actually, why do you keep ignoring the fact that Raiden's blows cause vast amount of sparks on impact regardless or the fact he'd literally die if he wasn't protected, given you've now gone on record and stated that Armstrong only has so many nano's and can't be used in multiple places at once, you're outright insinuating that none black parts are 100% completely defenseless).
Armstrong's Nanomachines are 100% completely automatic, they will harden and defend regardless of Armstrong's wishes, it's even outright stated they're AI controlled and automatic, thrice. Ie, Armstrong having some minor control over them means absolutely nothing when we know they have blatant automatic properties.
Raiden is shown numerous times incapable of harming Armstrong in Phase 1, in both gameplay and QTE (****** even has hyperarmor).
In Phase 2 Raiden explicitly, blatantly and is even confirmed as such, to have harmed Armstrong physically.
Armstrong's nano's protect him even when not visually shown, we know for a fact that the nano's completely solidify the internal structure even if the skin isn't blackened.
We know Armstrong's nano's protect his whole body and can do so all at once if it's warranted, because physics, 3rd law and doing shit that requires his whole body.
If Armstrong wasn't protected he'd literally ******* die because he's just a human otherwise.
When Armstrong is hit, regardless of skin visuals, vast amounts of sparks, metal clashing and in some cases even black pieces of nano shrapnel get blown off on impact, literally confirming he's protected.
To further enforce that we see multiple times throughout the fight that Armstrong in places that aren't black are even outright identical to places that are, an example above has been linked where Raiden with the Muramusa hits him in a non black part (his face fyi) and it's identical to when he hits him in his blackened fists, there is no difference between black and none black in most cases.
Raiden hits Armstrong in hardened black parts anyway at various points and visibly hurts Armstrong so even then moot point.
Like come the **** on Ovens, you can't be for real and I'd appreciate it if I didn't have to repeat the exact same shit that Wright and I just went through.
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What we're told and what we see are two different things. Feats > statements always. If we are told they're automatic but we see clear contradictions we don't accept it as gospel.
Also even if they are entirely automatic, Sam beat the system by being faster than the reactions of the nanomachines. Let's disregard Armstrong's own reactions here, because Raiden having the speed advantage is crystal clear. This means he could have been outspeeding the nanomachines. Hell, Sam does this and he doesn't have blade mode.
Ok, let's say for a moment I believe Armstrong's nanomachines react to every hit. There is still no canonical explanation as to why Raiden must overcome a 10x gap to break past them. In fact, Raiden was doing pretty well against Armstrong prior to phase 2. Remember that he beat Sam not long before the fight, and Sam did way better than him at least with regards to the first phase. So it makes no sense that such a gap of power would exist where Raiden would be doing absolutely no damage to Armstrong.
And you know what? He did do damage to Armstrong. We see Armstrong's health chipping away with every attack in the first phase. This should be enough to warrant scaling. If Armstrong is as impenetrable as you say he is, Raiden would have done absolutely no damage at all.
Also even if they are entirely automatic, Sam beat the system by being faster than the reactions of the nanomachines. Let's disregard Armstrong's own reactions here, because Raiden having the speed advantage is crystal clear. This means he could have been outspeeding the nanomachines. Hell, Sam does this and he doesn't have blade mode.
Ok, let's say for a moment I believe Armstrong's nanomachines react to every hit. There is still no canonical explanation as to why Raiden must overcome a 10x gap to break past them. In fact, Raiden was doing pretty well against Armstrong prior to phase 2. Remember that he beat Sam not long before the fight, and Sam did way better than him at least with regards to the first phase. So it makes no sense that such a gap of power would exist where Raiden would be doing absolutely no damage to Armstrong.
And you know what? He did do damage to Armstrong. We see Armstrong's health chipping away with every attack in the first phase. This should be enough to warrant scaling. If Armstrong is as impenetrable as you say he is, Raiden would have done absolutely no damage at all.
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I think the issue here is you don't grasp the difference between something being able be controlled but also being automated and it only being manual. Huge difference, if you can't figure that out, well sorry but you're blatantly wrong and this isn't subject to debate, Armstrong does have some degree of control over them, that's already been stated long ago, but it's also true they automatically defend even without his control or cognition, it's not mutually exclusive here, I can give you a whole list of statements saying this, several of which are accompanied by visual evidence.
Yes, glad you agree. But guess what? That stops being a factor in examples where Raiden's blows are shown equal in speed or in some cases, hitting him in the exact same spot for like 10 seconds straight in repeated succession all the while Armstrong is clearly reacting to each and every single hit, they can be outsped, but even in the cases where they are, it's only barely outsped, in the case with Sam, he was barely fast enough. And that was his best and fastest attack, ****, said attack even blitzed Raiden early game.
I mean, whether you believe it or not, we're outright told they do, and in instances they fail to, Armstrong is run through like butter because without them he's just a normal human, albeit a buff giga chad one, the mere fact that Armstrong when hit has sparks, metal effects and so on when hit regardless of where would be as good as proof as any that he's defended.
You right, the 10x gap was for Monsoon, you're mixing up scenes and points here.
Yes, untill Armstrong starting taking it more seriously, and then Raiden was completely unable to do anything meaning ful at all to Armstrong, even hurting himself twice while trying to hurt Armstrong. Sam fought a casual Armstrong as well.
If you want to be exact, the Armstrong Sam fought is comparable to the Armstrong that Raiden fought before Raiden told him to **** off and tossed him away.
After that? Armstrong wasn't taking his shit anymore, everything Raiden did was laughed off and failed to hurt him. And then in phase 2, where Armstrong is not only actually full serious but actually outright pissed off, Raiden is doing much better.
It makes sense because we're outright shown that to be the case and the end of phase 1 is literally dedicated to showing Armstrong no selling (And I counted) over 180 punches, a punch to the face, Armstrong stating that Raiden can't hurt him in response to Raiden literally being unable to hurt him and even clarifying it again and laughing. You're right, he wasn't do absolutely no damage if you want to be literal, but he was doing so little damage it was effectively nothing.
Which is what I find odd, you act like Raiden doing even a tiny bit of damage while going all out means Raiden in phase 2 isn't demonstrably doing much more damage, you behave as if there's no variance and that there's only zero damage, crippling lethal damage, and death. Which isn't true for anything, Raiden still went from doing next to nothing to doing much better, the exact amount is debatable but it's plain as day he did go from not hurting to hurting.
Uh, yeah, he chips away at him, with nearly 200 punches that Armstrong lets happen, and it's shrugged off. Meanwhile in the phase 2 QTE's one or two punches do the same amount of damage and Armstrong doesn't respond by going "eh" he responds but getting ******* furious, visibly reacting in pain, confirming various attacks hurt and so on, which is far beyond attacks in phase 1 doing between 0% to 0.1/0.2% with physical strikes and in the pummel QTE they do about 0.1% every 3 punches (as in, some actually are doing zero damage).
You can not sit here Ovens and actually, unironically, and truthfully tell me you don't know the difference between being punched a hundred times and it being laughed, not even flinching and confirming right after it didn't even hurt and did no real damage (6.5% with 180 punches isn't real damage when one blow is literally 0%, I could break a wall if I hit the damn thing 180 times in the same spot but you're not about to give me or real people 9-B are you?) compared to blows in phase 2 actively being capable of harm. Like nobody said Raiden got so strong he could ******* kill Armstrong with his bare hands, all that's been said is that Raiden went from being unable to do any meaningful damage no matter how hard he tried to being able to actually hurt him as one would expect a full blown punch to the face would hurt a person. There's such a blatant difference between the two, stop acting like they're the same thing.
Also thinking on it, there's also no real durability difference between when Armstrong is black or not if you want to actually go that route, we see him struck by Muramusa in non black spots and they do the same as if it was black, in QTE's mind you so your whole QTE model excuse goes both ways here, and the Muramusa's effects and damage are identical to as if it was black. The only difference in durability when actually trying is when the nano's simply arent fast enough at all to protect, in which he's run through like butter.
Meaning, Raiden hitting a black or nonblack spot doesnt matter (even though he does both in phase 2), as long as Armstrong is protected (he would be given he doesnt die and the effects from the blows signify he is), durability wise, there's no real difference. Of course that's assuming you don't just chalk it up to dynamic hardening at the time being ludicrous.
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Can someone summarize what the arguments are?
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Ill see if I can get a unbiased 3rd party to do so.
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Let me be clear once more. You either admit Raiden did damage to Armstrong in both phases or you admit he didn't. Because he harmed Armstrong in phase 1 too, and even though miniscule, damage is still damage. He scales. Him doing more damage is negligible since we already established he will do damage regardless.
Saying Raiden did a "full power" punch against Armstrong in the second phase QTE is completely conjecture, since we have no canonical explanation as to what counts as a "full powered" punch. And mind you the first phase rapid fire punches ended with Raiden pushing Armstrong back with a "full powered" punch.
Also Armstrong consistently gets knocked back when he doesn't expect it in both phases. This isn't even a nanomachine argument anymore, this is literally just Armstrong getting hurt when he's not aware.
Saying Raiden did a "full power" punch against Armstrong in the second phase QTE is completely conjecture, since we have no canonical explanation as to what counts as a "full powered" punch. And mind you the first phase rapid fire punches ended with Raiden pushing Armstrong back with a "full powered" punch.
Also Armstrong consistently gets knocked back when he doesn't expect it in both phases. This isn't even a nanomachine argument anymore, this is literally just Armstrong getting hurt when he's not aware.
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Oh my... I'm going to have to step away and facepalm for this, ill let others tear this one into ribbons.
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- Thread starter
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Your instigative comments are not needed.
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I mean, if you are going to step away and facepalm without addressing it, maybe you should do that instead of writing it here just to instigate more drama.
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Also about the 180 punches thing, the damage counter only reduces when Raiden does the rapid punching but not when he charges up to perform the final hit. So if you really want to bring the healthbar into this, it makes no sense that a bunch of lesser punches would reduce the healthbar but not a fully charged punch.
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If somebody can summarize the arguments for Andytrenom, that will be good. From how it looks, there is enough of a consensus as most people here are leaning to one side, but we can wait till Andy analyzes the arguments and gives his opinions and see what happens instead of going in circles.
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Oven be ******* real, this isn't how it works. In what world, does anyone, ever, consider
THIS.
******* THIS, over one hundred and eighty punches with the intent to kill directly at him, point blank, ending with a charged double punch that does nothing but knock him back a bit (To which Armstrong simply shrugs it off and goes on to say Jack simply cant hurt him) with the result being almost no damage with a multitude of the blows quite literally doing no damage and it taking multiple to do even 0.1%.
The same as THIS.
Where every single one of Raiden's blows deal drastically more damage, Armstrong visibly reacts in pain toward every single one, his health gets drained and it ends with a single punch to the face that floors him and contrary to the first scene where nothing hurt Armstrong, Armstrong HIMSELF says that Raiden's blows hurt.
And not just that.
Another example of Raiden actively hurting him far beyond what he did in phase 1 with a single blow.
Do you not comprehend the basic concept of things doing differing amounts of damage? That's rhetorical, of course you do, you know damn well it's not at all the same, it's very blatantly, demonstrably and explicitly not the same and this goes for every verse, not just this, hell we actively go out of our way to treat tiny damage as blatantly different compared to real hard hitting damage that actually hurts a character. You're treating things like a small skin scratch is the same as a stab wound to the neck. That's how ludicrous your argument is, in fact Im going as far to say it isnt an argument, it's the most nonargument in this thread and is blatant dishonesty and the fact you even have the audacity to sit here and pretend like being punched hundreds of times or slammed in the face with direct confirmation that they don't even hurt is the same as being floored and made to eat dirt with direct confirmation they hurt.
I'm going to assume Raiden punching Armstrong so hard that Raiden's fist is hurt by it (twice fyi at the end of phase 1) and Raiden explicitly making note of how he's trying to kill him is a full powered punch if you're talking about the end of phase 1, if you're talking about phase 2, then you're arguing against yourself because you're basically saying it doesnt even take Raiden's full strength powered punch to hurt Armstrong in phase 2.
And yes, the double handed blow knocked Armstrong back, and Armstrong wasn't hurt by it, laughed it off and it did no damage.
Yet in phase 2, the same attacks do vastly more damage with confirmation they hurt and is visibly far more hurting.
Which is literally my argument.
Knocked back isn't the same as being hurt.
"He gets knocked back when taken by surprise".
"So it means he gets hurt when off guard".
In what world do you live in where Armstrong being knocked back but not being dealt and real damage to be the same as Armstrong actually being hurt.
Goddamn even if you truly want to say he was """"""""hurt""""""""" in phase 1 when being knocked back, it's drastically and hilariously less then in phase 2. It's basically like tripping being compared to falling several stories. The latter is very clearly way worse.
Also again, him being aware literally doesn't matter, while it's true Armstrong does have some degree of control of his nano's, it's ALSO true that the nano's will automatically defend against all attacks that hit him without him being aware (it's even outright said that it's impossible for Armstrong to do so and he has an automated AI center in his body that automatically does it for him so he doesn't have to worry about defending). The nanomachines will always defend automatically, if they don't, it's simply because they weren't fast enough, and in those cases, Armstrong is run through like nothing because without nano's he's literally just a human. I find it baffling that you've yet to properly comment on the fact that Armstrong even when not visually hardened, still is just as durable if protected, and if he wasn't he die because he's human, but also the fact there's clear evidence that the non black parts are protected due to the sparks and metal clashing effects, black nano shrapnel, the fact we see Armstrong tank blows from Muramusa in unhardened spots just the same in QTE's and so on.
Actually, before you even think of responding, explain the fact he doesn't die when hit by Raiden (if not protected according to you), the fact his body can withstand his own blows even when not black (third law), why there's blatant sparks and metal clashing and so on when hit. You've skimmed over this everytime and if you actually want to use the not black=/=protected argument, you need an objective concrete explanation rooted in explicit proof for every single one of those.
I actually can't believe you Ovens, having an opinion is one thing but you're ******* lying, and blatantly so.
I hope to god you realize that if we don't bring the health bar into this then there's absolutely zero indication that even a single one of those punches and total amount altogether did any damage at all and as such your "well they did do tiny damage" is thrown out the window because there's zero indication otherwise and proof they didnt. And are you really saying that 180 punches doing more damage then a single charged punch doesn't make sense? especially when it takes like 3 on average within the pummel to even chip away at 0.1%? Raiden's fully charged punches aren't like a dozen times more powerful then his normal punches Ovens, it's actually less then 3x funnily enough. And hey, HP bars? You know that the attacks done by Raiden in phase 2 QTE's deal like 10-20% with the single rapid jab blows being like 2-3% per blow in the QTE's? Even in the gameplay itself his attacks do like 4x more damage. Absolutely everything shows and indicates he's doing far more damage with his bare fists then he was previously, you're being dishonest.
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End of Phase 1.
180 punches and a charged double punch, Armstrong practically no sells it and shrugs it off and even chuckles at it. Damage wise, it does a total of 6.5%, with it taking 3 punches on average to do even 0.1%.
The most blatant example in probably video game history of a character being unable to do any real meaningful damage to an opponent, and that's the whole point.
Raiden shakes his hand in response to having just gone all out on Armstrong and having dealt basically no real damage, Armstrong shrugs it off, Raiden asks why he won't die. Meme, Armstrong says they harden in response to being hit and that Raiden can't hurt him.
Raiden in retaliation does some running charge punch at Armstrong to the face. It doesn't do anything and Armstrong just chuckles and clarifies that Raiden can't hurt him.
As such, we are blatantly shown that at the end of phase 1, Raiden can do **** all to Armstrong, it isn't even up for debate it takes a hilarious amount of attacks to even make Armstrong feel it leta lone actually HURT him.
Meanwhile in phase 2, those same punches that took 180 to do basically anything are now doing drastically more damage to Armstrong, 3 for 0.1% opposed to 10 jabs taking off like 15%.
And a direct punch to the face in the same spot where the previous running punch did nothing, proceeds to hit Armstrong so hard it freezeframes, we hear the sound of something breaking, sparks fly everyone, it puts Armstrong on his ass and drains his HP and Armstrong himself states it hurt when previously punches to the face didn't hurt. And it does like 10%.
But not only that, we also see that Raiden can chop him, kick him all of which cause him to visibly react and even a flip kick so hard that we hear more things break and it drains his HP bar again by over 10%.
https://imgur.com/a/rRmudUE
And even then, Raiden can toss him so hard it does like 20% and visibly makes Armstrong strain a bit.
Ovens, come on. be honest. Like if you want to actually debate you could at least not stick to the most dishonest argument of them all and act like the most tiny of damage is at all comparable to the shit Raiden was doing in phase 2 or better yet, stop pretending things like Armstrong being floored isn't actually him being hurt even when he says it hurt (scripted fyi, he will always say "that one hurt!" after the first crosscounter).
Not even the other opposition reasonably thinks that Armstrong was truly hurt in phase 1 by the end QTE's and cutscene and at the very least everyone can agree Armstrong was hurt by Raiden's attacks in phase two, the only thing being argued is why they hurt, you're the only person actually trying to say Raiden's puny blows did real damage and it's the same as what happened in phase two.
180 punches and a charged double punch, Armstrong practically no sells it and shrugs it off and even chuckles at it. Damage wise, it does a total of 6.5%, with it taking 3 punches on average to do even 0.1%.
The most blatant example in probably video game history of a character being unable to do any real meaningful damage to an opponent, and that's the whole point.
Raiden shakes his hand in response to having just gone all out on Armstrong and having dealt basically no real damage, Armstrong shrugs it off, Raiden asks why he won't die. Meme, Armstrong says they harden in response to being hit and that Raiden can't hurt him.
Raiden in retaliation does some running charge punch at Armstrong to the face. It doesn't do anything and Armstrong just chuckles and clarifies that Raiden can't hurt him.
As such, we are blatantly shown that at the end of phase 1, Raiden can do **** all to Armstrong, it isn't even up for debate it takes a hilarious amount of attacks to even make Armstrong feel it leta lone actually HURT him.
Meanwhile in phase 2, those same punches that took 180 to do basically anything are now doing drastically more damage to Armstrong, 3 for 0.1% opposed to 10 jabs taking off like 15%.
And a direct punch to the face in the same spot where the previous running punch did nothing, proceeds to hit Armstrong so hard it freezeframes, we hear the sound of something breaking, sparks fly everyone, it puts Armstrong on his ass and drains his HP and Armstrong himself states it hurt when previously punches to the face didn't hurt. And it does like 10%.
But not only that, we also see that Raiden can chop him, kick him all of which cause him to visibly react and even a flip kick so hard that we hear more things break and it drains his HP bar again by over 10%.
https://imgur.com/a/rRmudUE
And even then, Raiden can toss him so hard it does like 20% and visibly makes Armstrong strain a bit.
Ovens, come on. be honest. Like if you want to actually debate you could at least not stick to the most dishonest argument of them all and act like the most tiny of damage is at all comparable to the shit Raiden was doing in phase 2 or better yet, stop pretending things like Armstrong being floored isn't actually him being hurt even when he says it hurt (scripted fyi, he will always say "that one hurt!" after the first crosscounter).
Not even the other opposition reasonably thinks that Armstrong was truly hurt in phase 1 by the end QTE's and cutscene and at the very least everyone can agree Armstrong was hurt by Raiden's attacks in phase two, the only thing being argued is why they hurt, you're the only person actually trying to say Raiden's puny blows did real damage and it's the same as what happened in phase two.
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Chariot, Raiden wasn't trying as hard as he was in phase 2. Why would he? He has never faced an opponent like Armstrong before. He cut through everything in his career clean like butter, why would he go all out in phase 1?
This is backed up by the fact that Raiden outright says he isn't going to hold back in phase 2. This is the equivocal difference between sparring and fighting to kill.
AP isn't a constant thing, it's entirely dependant on how much strength you're willing to put into a punch and we have an entire cutscene saying Raiden isn't going to hold back anymore. Saying he doesn't hold back throughout the entire fight completely negates the character development that Raiden was building up to throughout the entire game. He's literally saying "My blade is a tool of justice but this ain't my blade so I'm going to kill you in anger"
This is backed up by the fact that Raiden outright says he isn't going to hold back in phase 2. This is the equivocal difference between sparring and fighting to kill.
AP isn't a constant thing, it's entirely dependant on how much strength you're willing to put into a punch and we have an entire cutscene saying Raiden isn't going to hold back anymore. Saying he doesn't hold back throughout the entire fight completely negates the character development that Raiden was building up to throughout the entire game. He's literally saying "My blade is a tool of justice but this ain't my blade so I'm going to kill you in anger"
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"He wasn't trying as hard" uh Houston? Raiden proclaimed that he would take Armstong's life, why shouldn't he be going all out after saying that? He said "OK. Let's Dance!" And then phase 2 started, and that also holds the question, why should Raiden hold back? He never actually held back after the Monsoon boss fight, with only one instance of him holding back before then, right before the monsoon boss fight. He saw Blade Wolf badly injured, fought a metal gear he had never seen anything like before, and Doktor even states that Armstrong not suppressed could kill Raiden in a single hit, why should Raiden hold back when someone who hasn't been wrong before straight up tells him that his opponent could kill him in one hit?
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Why would he? Gee probably to stop the onset of a world war? The spread of propaganda happening live? A societal purge? The fact he voiced his intent to kill, multiple times, the fact he tried to kill, multiple times.
Yes he never faced an opponent like Armstrong before, doesn't change the fact he was actively trying to kill him and was swinging at him so hard he was straining himself and failing to do much of anything.
Him cutting everything in his career like butter is a very, very, blatant lie and easily proven false, **** the game opens with him getting stomped by Sam, there's also points in the game where he actively has issues for one reason or another, and if you want to take a step even further back, Vamp says hi.
Raiden also goes out all the time in character right away, he doesn't **** around, that's easily proven by anyone who's actually played the games, the most he does is a few lines of exchange, in the case with Armstrong, at the end of phase 1, he's very clearly going all out and failing and already voiced his intent to kill twice.
So why would he go all out in phase 1? He goes all out all the time in character, he wanted Armstrong dead, he was shown pretty clearly going all out and even straining himself while doing it, he was trying to stop a war, and he had a vendetta against Armstrong due to events prior in the game.
You know when he says that he's talking about with holding his weapon's right, right? That has nothing to do with Raiden ******* punching someone harder, especially when it's shown plain as day in phase 1 that Raiden is physically trying his earnest and failing, and the game even doubles down on that, thrice. Hurts himself twice punching Armstrong due to him being so sturdy even.
Yes, strength is dependent on will, but not to the point that hundreds of attempted killing blows done with visible effort while actively trying isn't at all comparable to Raiden doing those same attacks in phase 2, with the same amount of effort, and simply doing far better physically. You're being dishonest here, especially when we have other examples to compare to Raiden holding back and going all out elsewhere, in this very game.
And, yes, his sword, you're acting like we didn't go over exactly this 300 posts ago. I hope to God you know this whole argument is exclusively about his sword and just his sword. You're also backpedaling, hard.
I can't believe the current argument is literally "Raiden just wasnt trying that hard physically in phase 1".
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Also they do actually have the model for Armstrong with full black nanos in the base game, I noticed it during the Shockwave at 35:40.
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Neat, that's actually helpful.
Edit: Confirmed, there's zero damage discrepancy between that and normal, it's literally just visual. Raiden's atacks do damage to that form just as fine as without.
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OK, so I missed some shit while I was gone. After seeing all this, I can't believe this even being questioned right now. I hella agree with Chariot FRA.
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This whole argument is about how Raiden does not have Reactive Power Level. If I find another piece of evidence that supports my argument why shouldn't I bring it up?
Also saying Raiden goes all out all the time is disingenuous to the entire plot of the game. Monsoon's fight was to prove that Raiden can't simply suppress himself when facing an opponent if he wants to win.
The entire game is about philosophy and Raiden coming to terms with the fact that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if your morals stand true, the victor is right. This is a very blatant in Armstrong's fight as Raiden was still of the belief that he would only kill for justice, not anger. That changed in the beginning of phase 2, and was hammered home with Armstrong's dying breath basically saying Raiden was doing the exact same thing he was doing: Killing to achieve his goals no matter the cost.
Raiden was changed from phase 1 to phase 2 because in phase 2 he was killing in anger, which would increase his power canonically since that's literally how his ripper persona works.
Also saying Raiden goes all out all the time is disingenuous to the entire plot of the game. Monsoon's fight was to prove that Raiden can't simply suppress himself when facing an opponent if he wants to win.
The entire game is about philosophy and Raiden coming to terms with the fact that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if your morals stand true, the victor is right. This is a very blatant in Armstrong's fight as Raiden was still of the belief that he would only kill for justice, not anger. That changed in the beginning of phase 2, and was hammered home with Armstrong's dying breath basically saying Raiden was doing the exact same thing he was doing: Killing to achieve his goals no matter the cost.
Raiden was changed from phase 1 to phase 2 because in phase 2 he was killing in anger, which would increase his power canonically since that's literally how his ripper persona works.
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Ugh, back to RM are we? How many posts ago was that debunked?
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Stop misinterpreting the argument please, he's not saying Raiden actually entered Ripper Mode (despite full capability of doing so since Monsoon, which would be weird to assume he never uses this again), just that it was a change in Raiden's motive and belief behind his actions.
If you cannot actually contribute any proper argument, please do everyone a favor and stop replying.
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Your right, I should just watch Chariot and Twellas tear these arguments apart and laugh
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Wouldn't say its debunked, its still quite heavily implied and very plausible Raiden was in his Ripper persona for reasons already discussed.
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- #359
You know with the amount of instigating you're doing i'm quite sure this is grounds for a warning. Shall I take this to RVR then?
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(I'm intending to leave the wiki for a bit anyway, and only actually participate in like 2 threads, so doesn't actually change much)
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