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Also, Raiden never hit Armstrong anywhere where there wasn't a visible change in his skin. Not before the fight got serious. So I don't know what you mean.
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We cant tell under a shirt, but Armstrong's hands and head went black even though the former was nowhere near the punchesAlso, Raiden never hit Armstrong anywhere where there wasn't a visible change in his skin. Not before the fight got serious. So I don't know what you mean.
But it wasn't really? Armstrong was suppressed, he was contending with a casual Armstrong, which even Raiden could (barely) do.I was talking about Sam when I mentioned the fight being even.
Raiden's fight with Sam. I edited it to clarify.But it wasn't really? Armstrong was suppressed, he was contending with a casual Armstrong, which even Raiden could (barely) do.
It's only when Armstrong said haha **** it that Raiden's attacks starting becoming completely useless at the end of phase 1.
The Armstrong that Sam fought and the Armstrong that Raiden fought in phase 2 are very, very different beasts.
Also noteworthy and it should probably be mentioned, but in phase 1 Armstrong has builtin hyperarmor, nothing Raiden can do can even stun or stagger him or make him flinch. Not the case in phase 2 regardless of what Raiden does.
Gameplay segments mate. But even then.Also, Raiden never hit Armstrong anywhere where there wasn't a visible change in his skin. Not before the fight got serious. So I don't know what you mean.
I mean, he's shown the ability to cover his entire body in the DLC.We cant tell under a shirt, but Armstrong's hands and head went black even though the former was nowhere near the punches
TrueI mean, he's shown the ability to cover his entire body in the DLC.
DLC came out months later though? In the base game that's never seen and even seemingly impossible, as said, you could likely just rip his models and textures if you want. Probably because the game was already under lots of pressure and had to be reworked multiple times from the ground up.I mean, he's shown the ability to cover his entire body in the DLC.
...That doesn't make the events any less canon. They still happened and we've been using the DLC to argue just fine up to now.DLC came out months later though? In the base game that's never seen. Probably because the game was already under lots of pressure and had to be reworked multiple times from the ground up.
Never said they weren't. But we're arguing about game limitations and all that shit at the moment correct? There's a pretty big difference between using the DLC to argue and using a new model created for the DLC with the extra month of time they had to somehow discredit the base game Armstrong not having a model like that even though the base game still acts and behaves as if Raiden is hitting him in protected spots with the effects, of which includes effects used when Raiden actively does hit spots visually protected as well such as pieces of the nano's being launched....That doesn't make the events any less canon. They still happened and we've been using the DLC to argue just fine up to now.
I mean, you are free to think that, but I did go over this in my first post.I think Abstractions and Ovens points are mostly just wrong, considering there are several instances in phase 1 where Raiden is barely scratching Armstrong and during phase 2 where Raiden is beating the hell out of Armstrong physically through his nanomachines.
Let's examine Armstrong vs Jetstream Sam... oh wait! That fight causes the whole two places at once argument to crumple in on itselfThe QTE where Armstrong no-sells the rapid-fire punches is in no way comparable to the QTE where Raiden punches Armstrong in the face.
The first QTE was completely visible by Armstrong and he could readily react in time to completely harden his chest.
The second QTE had Raiden narrowly dodge Armstrong's punch which caused the former's own punch to connect, something he did not react to.
We see multiple times, both during cutscenes, QTEs and gameplay that Armstrong can control the areas he could harden without needing to be hit in that area. We also see that when he hardens one area, the rest of his body is left unhardened. We have never actually seen his whole body hardened before. It is entirely possible he used all his nanomachines to block Raiden's rapid-fire punches but not the unexpected punch to the face.
Another piece of evidence that supports the fact that Armstrong can't block two places at once is when Raiden impaled his abdomen when the nanomachines were in his upper body.
This is the only time outside of gameplay where Raiden does any form of visible harm and it's where his body isn't blackened.
Also please explain to me where the x10 AP gap comes from.
The QTE where Armstrong no-sells the rapid-fire punches is in no way comparable to the QTE where Raiden punches Armstrong in the face.
The first QTE was completely visible by Armstrong and he could readily react in time to completely harden his chest.
The second QTE had Raiden narrowly dodge Armstrong's punch which caused the former's own punch to connect, something he did not react to.
We see multiple times, both during cutscenes, QTEs and gameplay that Armstrong can control the areas he could harden without needing to be hit in that area.
We also see that when he hardens one area, the rest of his body is left unhardened. We have never actually seen his whole body hardened before. It is entirely possible he used all his nanomachines to block Raiden's rapid-fire punches but not the unexpected punch to the face.
Another piece of evidence that supports the fact that Armstrong can't block two places at once is when Raiden impaled his abdomen when the nanomachines were in his upper body.
This is the only time outside of gameplay where Raiden does any form of visible harm and it's where his body isn't blackened.
Also please explain to me where the x10 AP gap comes from.
What we're told and what we see are two different things. Feats > statements always. If we are told they're automatic but we see clear contradictions we don't accept it as gospel.
Also even if they are entirely automatic, Sam beat the system by being faster than the reactions of the nanomachines. Let's disregard Armstrong's own reactions here, because Raiden having the speed advantage is crystal clear. This means he could have been outspeeding the nanomachines. Hell, Sam does this and he doesn't have blade mode.
Ok, let's say for a moment I believe Armstrong's nanomachines react to every hit. There is still no canonical explanation as to why Raiden must overcome a 10x gap to break past them.
In fact, Raiden was doing pretty well against Armstrong prior to phase 2. Remember that he beat Sam not long before the fight, and Sam did way better than him at least with regards to the first phase.
So it makes no sense that such a gap of power would exist where Raiden would be doing absolutely no damage to Armstrong.
And you know what? He did do damage to Armstrong. We see Armstrong's health chipping away with every attack in the first phase. This should be enough to warrant scaling. If Armstrong is as impenetrable as you say he is, Raiden would have done absolutely no damage at all.
Ill see if I can get a unbiased 3rd party to do so.Can someone summarize what the arguments are?
Oh my... I'm going to have to step away and facepalm for this, ill let others tear this one into ribbons.Let me be clear once more. You either admit Raiden did damage to Armstrong in both phases or you admit he didn't. Because he harmed Armstrong in phase 1 too, and even though miniscule, damage is still damage. He scales. Him doing more damage is negligible since we already established he will do damage regardless.
Saying Raiden did a "full power" punch against Armstrong in the second phase QTE is completely conjecture, since we have no canonical explanation as to what counts as a "full powered" punch. And mind you the first phase rapid fire punches ended with Raiden pushing Armstrong back with a "full powered" punch.
Also Armstrong consistently gets knocked back when he doesn't expect it in both phases. This isn't even a nanomachine argument anymore, this is literally just Armstrong getting hurt when he's not aware.
Your instigative comments are not needed.Oh my... I'm going to have to step away and facepalm for this, ill let others tear this one into ribbons.
I mean, if you are going to step away and facepalm without addressing it, maybe you should do that instead of writing it here just to instigate more drama.Oh my... I'm going to have to step away and facepalm for this, ill let others tear this one into ribbons.
Let me be clear once more. You either admit Raiden did damage to Armstrong in both phases or you admit he didn't. Because he harmed Armstrong in phase 1 too, and even though miniscule, damage is still damage. He scales. Him doing more damage is negligible since we already established he will do damage regardless.
Saying Raiden did a "full power" punch against Armstrong in the second phase QTE is completely conjecture, since we have no canonical explanation as to what counts as a "full powered" punch. And mind you the first phase rapid fire punches ended with Raiden pushing Armstrong back with a "full powered" punch.
Also Armstrong consistently gets knocked back when he doesn't expect it in both phases. This isn't even a nanomachine argument anymore, this is literally just Armstrong getting hurt when he's not aware.
Also about the 180 punches thing, the damage counter only reduces when Raiden does the rapid punching but not when he charges up to perform the final hit. So if you really want to bring the healthbar into this, it makes no sense that a bunch of lesser punches would reduce the healthbar but not a fully charged punch.
Chariot, Raiden wasn't trying as hard as he was in phase 2. Why would he? He has never faced an opponent like Armstrong before. He cut through everything in his career clean like butter, why would he go all out in phase 1?
This is backed up by the fact that Raiden outright says he isn't going to hold back in phase 2. This is the equivocal difference between sparring and fighting to kill.
AP isn't a constant thing, it's entirely dependant on how much strength you're willing to put into a punch and we have an entire cutscene saying Raiden isn't going to hold back anymore. Saying he doesn't hold back throughout the entire fight completely negates the character development that Raiden was building up to throughout the entire game. He's literally saying "My blade is a tool of justice but this ain't my blade so I'm going to kill you in anger"
Neat, that's actually helpful.Also they do actually have the model for Armstrong with full black nanos in the base game, I noticed it during the Shockwave at 35:40.
Stop misinterpreting the argument please, he's not saying Raiden actually entered Ripper Mode (despite full capability of doing so since Monsoon, which would be weird to assume he never uses this again), just that it was a change in Raiden's motive and belief behind his actions.Ugh, back to RM are we? How many posts ago was that debunked?
Your right, I should just watch Chariot and Twellas tear these arguments apart and laughStop misinterpreting the argument please, he's not saying Raiden actually entered Ripper Mode (despite full capability of doing so since Monsoon, which would be weird to assume he never uses this again), just that it was a change in Raiden's motive and belief behind his actions.
If you cannot actually contribute any proper argument, please do everyone a favor and stop replying.
Wouldn't say its debunked, its still quite heavily implied and very plausible Raiden was in his Ripper persona for reasons already discussed.Ugh, back to RM are we? How many posts ago was that debunked?
You know with the amount of instigating you're doing i'm quite sure this is grounds for a warning. Shall I take this to RVR then?Your right, I should just watch Chariot and Twellas tear these arguments apart and laugh
(I'm intending to leave the wiki for a bit anyway, and only actually participate in like 2 threads, so doesn't actually change much)You know with the amount of instigating you're doing i'm quite sure this is grounds for a warning. Shall I take this to RVR then?