Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[Chariot190]

This whole argument is about how Raiden does not have Reactive Power Level. If I find another piece of evidence that supports my argument why shouldn't I bring it up?

That's the point of the thread, not the argument.
I mean, your evidence is "raiden wasnt trying lol", That's not evidence, that's literal hypocrisy, conjecture and false based on literally everything we are told in that sequence.

Also saying Raiden goes all out all the time is disingenuous to the entire plot of the game. Monsoon's fight was to prove that Raiden can't simply suppress himself when facing an opponent if he wants to win.

Using a form? And Raiden actually has a bit of a crisis at one pint because he realizes that he's blindly ******* murdering and stomping people into the ground.
And yes, he does go out all the time, there's a difference between him not wanting to become a serial killer and him actively holding back. Which becomes Ripper Mode, it's own thing. Which, fyi wasn't used against Armstrong in either phase so either way.

The entire game is about philosophy and Raiden coming to terms with the fact that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if your morals stand true, the victor is right. This is a very blatant in Armstrong's fight as Raiden was still of the belief that he would only kill for justice, not anger. That changed in the beginning of phase 2, and was hammered home with Armstrong's dying breath basically saying Raiden was doing the exact same thing he was doing: Killing to achieve his goals no matter the cost.

Yes, that's true. But it doesn't mean Raiden is suddenly punching drastically harder, so much harder that he goes from being incapable of hurting to hurting quite blatantly, all his attacks do much more damage, he folds Armstrong, and so on. ****, we actually know the difference between RM and base, and it's a canonical 10x, and Raiden's blows in phase 2 in the QTE's are doing a **** ton above what RM would allow him to cover.

Raiden was changed from phase 1 to phase 2 because in phase 2 he was killing in anger, which would increase his power canonically since that's literally how his ripper persona works.

He wasn't using Ripper Mode, and if he did, it's only temporarily (ignoring the fact that if you enter RM in either phase, the damage still scales accordingly and comparatively, without getting into the fact he was literally not in RM mode).

 

[ShivaShakti]

(I'm intending to leave the wiki for a bit anyway, and only actually participate in like 2 threads, so doesn't actually change much)

Still does not excuse your actions. You were told to cut it out, but evidently that wasn't enough.

 

[Chariot190]

You know with the amount of instigating you're doing i'm quite sure this is grounds for a warning. Shall I take this to RVR then?

Dude you're not one to talk, you did basically the same thing earlier today and no one bitched at you then. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Dude you're not one to talk, you did basically the same thing earlier today and no one bitched at you then. Don't be a hypocrite.

I instigated nothing as far as I can recall. Either way i'm going to be taken this there now.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can we not argue over this? Take it to my wall, it can be discussed there.

 

[Abstractions]

Your right, I should just watch Chariot and Twellas tear these arguments apart and laugh

Congratulations on not listening to a single word said and intentionally trying to stir the pot, do you think Chariot actually appreciates you turning the argument more incendiary when he's trying to actually argue? Because you know that it isn't doing him favors.

It would actually help him if you didn't deliberately turn the situation more toxic.

Can we not argue over this? Take it to my wall, it can be discussed there.

Then stop commenting here.

 

[Chariot190]

Stop misinterpreting the argument please, he's not saying Raiden actually entered Ripper Mode (despite full capability of doing so since Monsoon, which would be weird to assume he never uses this again), just that it was a change in Raiden's motive and belief behind his actions.

He probably did use RM, it's just RM wasnt used for the entire time and isnt why he's doing much more damage, given he can still enter RM in both phases, and said, scaled comparatively. Not actually his base.

I mean, nobody is gonna say that Raiden didnt have a moment and have a philosophical change, but that's literally in regards to just his sword (for some reason), and it was evidently clear he was physically making a huge effort against Armstrong physically after his blade got snapped, straining himself, even voicing his attempt at killing him.

 

[Chariot190]

Congratulations on not listening to a single word said and intentionally trying to stir the pot, do you think Chariot actually appreciates you turning the argument more incendiary when he's trying to actually argue? Because you know that it isn't doing him favors.

Eh, I can agree on that. I'd rather not have this get blown even more out of proportion, ****, already lost one dude from this shit.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

"Why won't you die?" isn't a factor in discerning if Raiden was using his full power since he could be confused as to why his suppressed punches aren't harming Armstrong when they worked on everyone prior. And I mean like everyone else prior to Armstrong at least showed a modicum of effort at guarding against Raiden, but not him. So it makes sense he would be puzzled as to why the same output he used against Sam did nothing to Armstrong.

Straining yourself can also happen when you're pulling your punches since it would take some effort to hold yourself back even a little. Again, harking back to my first argument: it takes less steps to assume Raiden stopped holding back than to assume Raiden magically became stronger using an ability that was never outright stated anyone had.

 

[AKM sama]

@DaReaperMan You were told to cut it out with the instigating one-liners. This thread in itself is about a very minor topic and not worth getting heated over. While I don't think you have done anything report-worthy yet, but this is your warning to cut it out for good. Or I will have to ban you from commenting on this thread for a few hours.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm just going to remind everyone that we're a wiki that decides who would win in a fight between fictional characters. Right now, we're trying to apply logic and sense to a cyborg ninja fighting a roided up super senator. This is not an argument worth getting angry about.

It's perfectly fine to take a step back and breath.

 

[Chariot190]

"Why won't you die?" isn't a factor in discerning if Raiden was using his full power since he could be confused as to why his suppressed punches aren't harming Armstrong when they worked on everyone prior.

And that right there is your complete conjecture. Everything points toward Raiden going all out. He's in a life and death situation he's trying to stop the onset of a world war. The spread of propaganda happening live. A societal purge. He's actually mad. The fact he voiced his intent to kill, multiple times, the fact he tried to kill (there's a reason why he asked why Armstrong wouldn't die despite the 100-200 blows that he just tanked), as in, Raiden was actively trying to kill him and expected him to die. Raiden also says "Time to die!" earlier in the phase.
Everything points toward Raiden actually trying, everything points toward Raiden going all out, we know Raiden was intending for Armstrong to die so he's not exactly holding back for Armstrong's sake and Raiden is already in a bad mood.
You can not say "his punches were suppressed" as if that's an objective fact, because it simply isnt.

And I mean like everyone else prior to Armstrong at least showed a modicum of effort at guarding against Raiden, but not him. So it makes sense he would be puzzled as to why the same output he used against Sam did nothing to Armstrong.

I mean, yeah? But he's puzzled because literally nothing he's doing is actually making much if any headway, not because he's confused as to why surpressed attacks are failing, he's confused because his attacks in general are failing and the game is making a effort to show that Raiden simply can't actually do much to Armstrong, and again, even after the huge pummel, Raiden charges Armstrong and yells, throwing a punch to his face, and it gets laughed off, a running screaming punch doesn't exactly give the notion of holding back.
And fyi, Monsoon's body could physically tank physical strikes from RM Raiden (And not only in gameplay fyi). Some of Raiden's previous enemies were actually durable enough to tank these blows, so unless you're about to argue that Raiden Monsoon is as durable as Armstrong, it's pretty sus to try and state that Raiden's heightened performance in phase 2 physically is due to his anger and letting go (even though contextually, it's explicitly talking about his sword).
Also the whole ten minutes later, Raiden proceeds to casually beat a Monsoon duplicate in base, even though statistically, the duplicate should be 10x stronger then his base form. But either way.

Straining yourself can also happen when you're pulling your punches since it would take some effort to hold yourself back even a little. Again, harking back to my first argument: it takes less steps to assume Raiden stopped holding back than to assume Raiden magically became stronger using an ability that was never outright stated anyone had.

Uh, when I saw strain I mean Raiden literally hurts his wrist pummeling, and later on his knuckles. Raiden was trying so hard he hurt himself.
And again, Raiden actually implies and states against Sam a line that could very easily be interpreted as such so again, acting as if nothing elsewhere in the game has anything that could lend credence to it is not exactly true.

To add to all of this there's a quote from Raiden during his fight with Sam, in which he says "His fighting style uses a good amount of blunt strikes and throws too... but sooner or later, that won't be enough to stop me", which heavily, HEAVILY implies that Raiden is growing throughout the fight; this could be either Skill or AP, but given how he talks about "stopping", it's quite probable that he's talking about physical stats.

It exists, at best, the worst you can say is it's interpretive, but it's there and it exists.

Raiden was very clearly trying at the end of phase 1, it's pretty disingenuous to try and say he wasn't.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree that RPL should be removed

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok. Let's try this from the top. I feel like we've rolled around in circles so much we've forgotten the original argument. Give me a direct statement that Raiden has RPL. No mental backflips. Show me one single piece of evidence that proves he canonically has the ability to get stronger in response to a fight. No this leads to that, or this is true because of that. Just show me where in the entirety of the Metal Gear series it was stated Raiden has reactive power level.

 

[Chariot190]

Ok. Let's try this from the top. I feel like we've rolled around in circles so much we've forgotten the original argument. Give me a direct statement that Raiden has RPL. No mental backflips. Show me one single piece of evidence that proves he canonically has the ability to get stronger in response to a fight. No this leads to that, or this is true because of that. Just show me where in the entirety of the Metal Gear series it was stated Raiden has reactive power level.

Nice try. Actually argue the points Ovens.

We have very clear cut examples of Raiden going from incapable of harming to harming him physically. (Honestly this is all that's needed. Blatantly began doing much more damage and harm. It's actually the most blatant example of a character being unable to hurt someone I've ever seen portrayed in a video game outside of like, Seathe first time around or King Koopa. Second phase is just straightforward "now he can actually hurt him". Actions speaker louder then words and all that).
We have every single facet of the scenes going portraying his inability to harm to harming him, including cinematics, dialogue, QTE, codecs, gameplay and more.This is swapped phase 2 (excluding codecs, dont think there's any unique ones for phase 2). (Regardless of skin tone, given I double checked and Raiden's attacks effect both the black and noblack parts the same).
We have examples littered throughout the game that suggest a linear progression of power such as with Monsoon and RM.
We have a statement from Raiden that all but indicates that if something drags on, his opponent, even if they hold the advantage and can even physically fend Raiden off, will be incapable of fending him off. (Again, this can easily be interpreted as such, and given the above where we literally see that Raiden goes from doing **** all to actual meaningful damage, why in the hell wouldnt we say that this includes bridging a power gap, especially when we know there was one and it ended up being moot).

Honestly the only real argument presented thus far is "Raiden wasn't trying", but that's dubious at best given everything in the scene says as much.
"but there isnt a direct statement absolutely confirming it".
And? There's far and beyond enough information ranging from blatant examples and demonstration of going from not hurting to hurting, implications of progression throughout the game, sequences of events and so on to suggest he did, etc, **** there's more going for it then the majority of the powers listed for 90% of the site. Sorry the game doesn't name off some arbitrary power like RPL, but there's enough to say that Raiden did physically increase in raw power.
Hell, I dont even care if we list as RPL or something else, I just stand by the fact Raiden went from being completely unable to hurt him to being able to hurt him without outside aid and with his bare fists.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Nice try. Actually argue the points Ovens.

We have very clear cut examples of Raiden going from incapable of harming to harming him physically. (Honestly this is all that's needed. Blatantly began doing much more damage and harm. It's actually the most blatant example of a character being unable to hurt someone I've ever seen portrayed in a video game outside of like, Seathe first time around or King Koopa. Second phase is just straightforward "now he can actually hurt him". Actions speaker louder then words and all that).
We have every single facet of the scenes going portraying his inability to harm to harming him, including cinematics, dialogue, QTE, codecs, gameplay and more.This is swapped phase 2 (excluding codecs, dont think there's any unique ones for phase 2). (Regardless of skin tone, given I double checked and Raiden's attacks effect both the black and noblack parts the same).
We have examples littered throughout the game that suggest a linear progression of power such as with Monsoon and RM.
We have a statement from Raiden that all but indicates that if something drags on, his opponent, even if they hold the advantage and can even physically fend Raiden off, will be incapable of fending him off. (Again, this can easily be interpreted as such, and given the above where we literally see that Raiden goes from doing **** all to actual meaningful damage, why in the hell wouldnt we say that this includes bridging a power gap, especially when we know there was one and it ended up being moot).

Honestly the only real argument presented thus far is "Raiden wasn't trying", but that's dubious at best given everything in the scene says as much.
"but there isnt a direct statement absolutely confirming it".
And? There's far and beyond enough information ranging from blatant examples and demonstration of going from not hurting to hurting, implications of progression throughout the game, sequences of events and so on to suggest he did, etc, **** there's more going for it then the majority of the powers listed for 90% of the site. Sorry the game doesn't name off some arbitrary power like RPL, but there's enough to say that Raiden did physically increase in raw power.
Hell, I dont even care if we list as RPL or something else, I just stand by the fact Raiden went from being completely unable to hurt him to being able to hurt him without outside aid and with his bare fists.

Just answer the question.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This is not how this works. If someone magically does more damage without explanation, we do not default to reactive power level. You have given me examples of Raiden increasing his power over the course of the entire game. Him suddenly being dramatically stronger after a monologue is in no means comparable.

Sorry the game doesn't name off some arbitrary power like RPL, but there's enough to say that Raiden did physically increase in raw power.

This is the whole problem with your argument. We cannot under any circumstances give RPL if there is no statement of it. Because there are a thousand and one other arguments that could be made for such a power increase, one of them being "Kojima doesn't give a rat's ass about adhering to our standards of how power levels work".

Yes, Raiden did get stronger from when he first got the new body, up until the end of the game. This was never a point I refuted. But saying he has reactive power level out of nowhere and using stray pieces of evidence to build a clumsy argument that only remotely points to him having it is going against occam's razor.

 

[DaReaperMan]

From my knowledge direct statements are good for hax like RPL but feats can also be taken into account, Raiden's RPL is the ladder.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

From my knowledge direct statements are good for hax like RPM but feats can also be taken into account, Raiden's RPL is the ladder.

You have one blatant feat which is Raiden being more effective in phase 2 than phase 1.

But said feat has no contextual backing besides a string of unrelated quotes stating that he could probably have it. This over the overwhelming number of alternate reasons all equally as valid, if not even more valid.

Bottomline is, RPL needs context. There is none here. There is no reason for it to exist besides conveniently explaining why phase 2 Raiden could do more damage than phase 1 Raiden. And we don't take the easy way out like this.

 

[Chariot190]

This is not how this works. If someone magically does more damage without explanation, we do not default to reactive power level. You have given me examples of Raiden increasing his power over the course of the entire game.

Uh, you do know those jumps are only canonically only like a dozen minutes apart? With the largest one being around 2h? That's literally just him going from weaker to stronger gradually. And for the Sam quote, that was amidst a fight. If you agree those examples have some credence, the that's that really.

Him suddenly being dramatically stronger after a monologue is in no means comparable.

About 4-5m actually.
Not super far off the other timeframes, definitely the shortest, but not by much, it isnt like Raiden canonically had Dok upgrade him in any of those instances (one was ten minutes apart, one was on a timelimit where he's rushing across the continent).

This is the whole problem with your argument. We cannot under any circumstances give RPL if there is no statement of it. Because there are a thousand and one other arguments that could be made for such a power increase, one of them being "Kojima doesn't give a rat's ass about adhering to our standards of how power levels work".

What are you on? If it's blatantly shown to us that, hey, he went from doing **** all physically to doing far more damage, his attacks are doing way more damage. This isnt subjective, his attacks blatantly and canonically are doing far more harm and damage then they did previously. There quite literally isnt a thousand and one other arguments, at best there's one presented thus far that holds any merit, and it's dubious at best. And yes, Platinum Games (Not Kojima, dont know what youre on), dont give a shit about our arbitrary levels of power and scaling, as such, if they made Raiden go from being weaker to stronger, then guess what? He went from being weaker to stronger. The fact other examples in the game exists including Raiden himself outright stating that sooner or later, it doesnt matter how skilled or strong someone is, they wont be able to stop him after some time. Do tell what the issue is? Just because the game doesn't spoonfeed made up powers doesnt meant he doesnt progress in strength quite quickly, whether that be over the course of a fight, a mission or against Armstrong in this case.

Yes, Raiden did get stronger from when he first got the new body, up until the end of the game. This was never a point I refuted. But saying he has reactive power level out of nowhere and using stray pieces of evidence to build a clumsy argument that only remotely points to him having it is going against occam's razor.

Obviously he got stronger after he got his new body, but that's because of the new body, completely irrelevant.
Every other example I mentioned was in the midst of battle or elsewhere when he had zero aid.
occam's razer? Don't you ******* dare bring that up because you've done nothing but spit in the face of Occam's razer. Occam's Razer would be seeing how Raiden went from doing nothing to demonstrably doing far better and actively hurting Armstrong and just saying he got stronger as that's what's shown to us, you're the one who's trying to pull out every single possible thing to say otherwise ranging from things that are demonstrably and proven false like Muramusa or how the two examples are some equivalent to even bigger jumps in logic like Raiden going out of his way to not actually put in effort against Armstrong.

Occam's razer states the route with the least amount of assumptions is the optimal one, the one with the least assumptions is he simply got stronger because that's what the game shows us in the QTE's and gameplay.

Also the only reason why anyone is arguing for RPL is because of the wiki's standards, everyone wanted it to just be Accelerated Development which already has basis in canon anyway.

 

[DaReaperMan]

One feat is all it takes

 

[ShivaShakti]

From my knowledge direct statements are good for hax like RPL but feats can also be taken into account, Raiden's RPL is the ladder.

I cannot recall any character who has Reactive Power Level solely off feats and little context to go with it.

The few videogame characters I do know have Reactive Power Level (Geralt for example) have feats alongside context. Geralt's potions that make up his reasoning for having this has a description of effects to coincide.

 

[ShivaShakti]

One feat is all it takes

Not when theres so little info, and multiple conclusions can be made as substitute.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Also the only reason why anyone is arguing for RPL is because of the wiki's standards, everyone wanted it to just be Accelerated Development which already has basis in canon anyway.

AD via Skill =/= AD via AP

 

[ShivaShakti]

Don't you ******* dare bring that up because you've done nothing but spit in the face of Occam's razer.

You also need to calm down with the hostility.

 

[Chariot190]

You have one blatant feat which is Raiden being more effective in phase 2 than phase 1.

I'd call every single QTE a feat, given they're all separate, plus the gameplay segments themselves. I'd also make not of the monsoon duplicate being bested in base even though a few minutes ago it would have been physically 10x above him, and then the Jetstream Sam quote by Raiden himself.

But said feat has no contextual backing besides a string of unrelated quotes stating that he could probably have it. This over the overwhelming number of alternate reasons all equally as valid, if not even more valid.

Nope, shit like Muramusa being why is demonstrably false, RM? Shown to be false and made worse because of the fact he can enter RM in both phase 1 and 2, clearly not why there's a jump (And RM is literally him letting go so either way). That only thing that could logically be used is Raiden wasnt going all out, but even that has a limit to how much one can reasonably believe he was holding back.

Bottomline is, RPL needs context. There is none here. There is no reason for it to exist besides conveniently explaining why phase 2 Raiden could do more damage than phase 1 Raiden. And we don't take the easy way out like this.

It has enough context throughout the game to suggest it's actually a thing, and it's better then trying to use demonstrably false explanations like Muramusa, RM or things that are at best suspect like Raiden arbitrarily holding back a ludicrous degree. Point is, shit happened with no real concrete thing saying otherwise all the while there's evidence elsewhere that leads credence to it. You can not objectively say it doesnt exist.

 

[AKM sama]

Guys, again. Chill out and tone down the aggression in the language. I get that debates get heated, but if you use such language, you aren't exactly helping, are you?

 

[Chariot190]

AD via Skill =/= AD via AP

You right, I'm saying it's AD, in like, general. Catch all.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I'd call every single QTE a feat, given they're all separate, plus the gameplay segments themselves. I'd also make not of the monsoon duplicate being bested in base even though a few minutes ago it would have been physically 10x above him, and then the Jetstream Sam quote by Raiden himself.

Nowhere is there a multiplier given for Ripper Mode's strength increase. The x10 thing is moot.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm just going to remind everyone that we're a wiki that decides who would win in a fight between fictional characters. Right now, we're trying to apply logic and sense to a cyborg ninja fighting a roided up super senator. This is not an argument worth getting angry about.

It's perfectly fine to take a step back and breath.

^

 

[Chariot190]

Not when theres so little info, and multiple conclusions can be made as substitute.

The issue is the other conclusions are either blatantly wrong and irrelevant, or it's at best just as suspect with even less going for it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Cool off and listen to the most positive person in existence, its what I've been doing in-between checking for replies

 

[Chariot190]

Nowhere is there a multiplier given for Ripper Mode's strength increase. The x10 thing is moot.

Wut. It's literally on his profile? There's even a scan.
This is like the 4th time you've been told this very thing.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The issue is the other conclusions are either blatantly wrong and irrelevant, or it's at best just as suspect with even less going for it.

No they aren't. The other conclusions are perfectly valid. Raiden has a better weapon which didn't break instantly, and the implication that he was in his Ripper persona are still there.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Wut. It's literally on his profile? There's even a scan.
This is like the 4th time you've been told this very thing.

No there is not a single scan on the page stating anything on the level of a x10 increase in his AP. The only thing on the page is a picture of a guidebook used for his speed in blademode and not his AP.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

You keep forgetting about context. If a character just becomes stronger without any indication or reason in the moment for why he became stronger, that's not canonical evidence for RPL, that's bad writing.

Also, Raiden isn't increasing his AP by a drastic amount throughout the entire game. The Winds of Destruction are all more or less equal in AP anyway, with some like Sam maybe being marginally stronger. So from stomp to equal footing in the span of a monologue is definitely not at all comparable to every other boss fight in the game.

Each QTE feat being a separate piece of evidence is false because he would have had to have been = to Armstrong the moment phase 2 started. Which means the AP jump already happened.

You have absolutely no evidence that Raiden has that sort of Reactive Power Level that couldn't have also been chalked up to a power amp.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Considering this is Platinum games of all companies we're talking about, I dont think its bad writing

 

[Chariot190]

No they aren't The other conclusions are perfectly valid. Raiden has a better weapon which didn't break instantly, and the implication that he was in his Ripper persona are still there.

He has a better weapon that didn't break, yes. UNFORTUNATELY for that argument, Raiden explicitly harms Armstrong with his bare fists and kicks multiple times throughout the fight without the blade, he actively gets disarmed throughout the fight and is forced to contend and successfully does so, without the blade. Armstrong explicitly states, guaranteed, no matter how you go about the fight, that Raiden physically hurt him in contrast to the end of phase 1, and made even wrse as Raiden's physical blows aren't even that different from what Muramusa is seen doing.

And RM? Yes he still has RM, but he doesnt use it the whole fight, it's not shown in any cinematic and he's purposely shown in base form. Made even worse as Raiden can enter RM in both phase 1 and 2 and the damage and scaling of RM is scaled accordingly, put simply, RM isnt why he's doing more damage.

Both those points are demonstrably false, they're moot.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Considering this is Platinum games of all companies we're talking about, I dont think its bad writing

You don't get to decide that. It's completely subjective.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Both those points are demonstrably false, they're moot.

What about "the creators of the game literally did not plan for a bunch of nerds to debate Raiden being able to harm Armstrong in phase 2"? As such, they did not consider the absolute insanity of allowing Raiden to actually harm Armstrong in phase 2 when he couldn't in phase 1.