Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[ShivaShakti]

He has a better weapon that didn't break, yes. UNFORTUNATELY for that argument, Raiden explicitly harms Armstrong with his bare fists and kicks multiple times throughout the fight without the blade, he actively gets disarmed throughout the fight and is forced to contend and successfully does so, without the blade. Armstrong explicitly states, guaranteed, no matter how you go about the fight, that Raiden physically hurt him in contrast to the end of phase 1, and made even wrse as Raiden's physical blows aren't even that different from what Muramusa is seen doing.

And RM? Yes he still has RM, but he doesnt use it the whole fight, it's not shown in any cinematic and he's purposely shown in base form. Made even worse as Raiden can enter RM in both phase 1 and 2 and the damage and scaling of RM is scaled accordingly, put simply, RM isnt why he's doing more damage.

Both those points are demonstrably false, they're moot.

To clarify, when you refer to phase 1 and 2. Do you mean Phase 1 is when the fight starts and Raiden has his sword, and Phase 2 is when his sword breaks and he goes unarmed on excelsus? Or do you mean the whole fight on excelsus is Phase 1, and the part where Raiden gains Murasama is Phase 2.

As I said earlier when he gains Murasama multiple things point to him embracing the Ripper once more. He makes a call back to his "Tool of Justice" line, and is speaking about his bloodlust and how he's not holding back for the kill. Also... You really wanna use damage values in game to determine this? How about the fact that in the final phase of the fight when you hit Armstrong with your sword or your fist when you're disarmed you do 1 to 2% of damage for each hit, where as Armstrong does 40% of your health with one kick? Even the QTE you've been throwing around where Raiden punches him in the face, that punch only does 10% of his health, implying he's still not really as strong as Armstrong, which would contradict your point about him scaling and being on par with him via RPL wouldn't it?

 

[Chariot190]

You keep forgetting about context. If a character just becomes stronger without any indication or reason in the moment for why he became stronger, that's not canonical evidence for RPL, that's bad writing.

The context is literally he couldnt do anything but second phase he can. The only context, if by context you mean what's happening in the story, isn't relevant or related to what Raiden is now doing but other shit which while relevant to the story and events, isnt actually helpful in explaining why he's suddenly folding Armstrong and insinuating those examples are would be disingenious because they're pretty clearly unrelated, sucks but it sometimes be like that.
Sure, it being stupid and bad may be true, ell, you know what game we're talking about right? doesnt mean it didnt happen. He still went from weaker to stronger. And indication? As said, there's points throughout the game that also suggest he simply got stronger within various short timeframes.

Also, Raiden isn't increasing his AP by a drastic amount throughout the entire game. The Winds of Destruction are all more or less equal in AP anyway, with some like Sam maybe being marginally stronger. So from stomp to equal footing in the span of a monologue is definitely not at all comparable to every other boss fight in the game.

Not quite, at least not with Monsoon, who for some reason is hyped as **** throughout the lore. Monsoon could contend with RM Raiden, and tank his blows, even his physical strikes like kicks. RM Raiden is 10x him. Meanwhile, next mission, he could contend and defeat in base a duplicate body. Also the whole line against Sam implying such a thing. Any the monologue is like, 5 minutes. Short yes, but not so much shorter then other examples. Other then the 2h one.
And besides, it doesnt matter, youre asking for evidence he grew in strength did you not? Well there's examples, how much is just moving the goalposts, point is it happened.

Each QTE feat being a separate piece of evidence is false because he would have had to have been = to Armstrong the moment phase 2 started. Which means the AP jump already happened.

No, each QTE is an example of him harming Armstrong. If you're talking examples of "he got stronger". Monsoon and seemingly Sam, there's two. Monsoon was seemingly hefty as well.

You have absolutely no evidence that Raiden has that sort of Reactive Power Level that couldn't have also been chalked up to a power amp.

I mean, if we wanna call it a power amp I'm fine with that, I'm just vehemently against acting like he didnt ******* get stronger, how or why I dont give a damn (as long as it's not outright false or even more suspect). RPL is just being tossed around due to lack of better options because apparently AD dont count.

 

[DaReaperMan]

To clarify, when you refer to phase 1 and 2. Do you mean Phase 1 is when the fight starts and Raiden has his sword, and Phase 2 is when his sword breaks and he goes unarmed on excelsus? Or do you mean the whole fight on excelsus is Phase 1, and the part where Raiden gains Murasama is Phase 2.

As I said earlier when he gains Murasama multiple things point to him embracing the Ripper once more. He makes a call back to his "Tool of Justice" line, and is speaking about his bloodlust and how he's not holding back for the kill. Also... You really wanna use damage values in game to determine this? How about the fact that in the final phase of the fight when you hit Armstrong with your sword or your fist when you're disarmed you do 1 to 2% of damage for each hit, where as Armstrong does 40% of your health with one kick? Even the QTE you've been throwing around where Raiden punches him in the face, that punch only does 10% of his health, implying he's still not really as strong as Armstrong, which would contradict your point about him scaling and being on par with him via RPL wouldn't it?

Phase 2 is when Raiden has the Murasama or whatever

 

[Chariot190]

What about "the creators of the game literally did not plan for a bunch of nerds to debate Raiden being able to harm Armstrong in phase 2"? As such, they did not consider the absolute insanity of allowing Raiden to actually harm Armstrong in phase 2 when he couldn't in phase 1.

Are we really back on the "the developers didnt intend" thing?
As for intentions, what they did intend was to show that Raiden couldn't hurt Armstrong.
In phase 2, they go out of their way to show he physically can.
That's literally all we can say for fact here, unless someone wants to try pirating a copy of the artbook and seeing if there's any relevant info in there?

 

[Chariot190]

To clarify, when you refer to phase 1 and 2. Do you mean Phase 1 is when the fight starts and Raiden has his sword, and Phase 2 is when his sword breaks and he goes unarmed on excelsus? Or do you mean the whole fight on excelsus is Phase 1, and the part where Raiden gains Murasama is Phase 2.

Phase 1 as in shirt Armstrong, Phase 2 as in shirtless amidst flames.

As I said earlier when he gains Murasama multiple things point to him embracing the Ripper once more. He makes a call back to his "Tool of Justice" line, and is speaking about his bloodlust and how he's not holding back for the kill

Cool, to bad it's easily proven that Muramusa did **** all in regards to Raiden physically hurting him and he's explicitly shown not in RM in all cinematics and cutscenes. And the very fact he can enter RM in both phases regardless of how much's doing, and it's scaled and implemented accordingly. Raiden was trying to kill in phase 1 dude, he literally says as much.

Also... You really wanna use damage values in game to determine this?

I mean, I'm using everything mate?

How about the fact that in the final phase of the fight when you hit Armstrong with your sword or your fist when you're disarmed you do 1 to 2% of damage for each hit

Yes, compared to phase 1 where you do 0% to 0.1/0.2%. And that's just in the gameplay itself let alone the scripted QTE's.

where as Armstrong does 40% of your health with one kick?

Yes. What does that have to do with Raiden going from being unable to hurt to being able to hurt him? Shit Armstrong could be ten billion times eaker then Raiden or ten billion times stronger, I said this numerous times before, all that matters is how durable Armstrong is and how much Raiden can physically do comparatively to how much he did previously.

Even the QTE you've been throwing around where Raiden punches him in the face, that punch only does 10% of his health, implying he's still not really as strong as Armstrong, which would contradict your point about him scaling and being on par with him via RPL wouldn't it?

11.5% if i recall, which is a far cry above 0% to 0.1% in the previous QTE, the fact Armstrong literally confirms that punch hurt him, when previously a punch to the face was laughed at shows that whatever the **** happened, Raiden is doing way more damage then he was before with just his fists.

Dude do you even know what my point is? It feels like you're arguing Twellas' claims, not mine.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean, if we wanna call it a power amp I'm fine with that, I'm just vehemently against acting like he didnt ******* get stronger, how or why I dont give a damn (as long as it's not outright false or even more suspect). RPL is just being tossed around due to lack of better options because apparently AD dont count.

You can't just go "he got visibly stronger, therefore it is canon". It's a visible inconsistency. It is so out of left field and never mentioned once. We have a name for such things called PIS. If such things were so simple, then make Sakura 5-C. She scales to harming Kaguya alongside Naruto and Sauske, right? There is no canon explanation for how Raiden directly got stronger so we don't accept the feat as consistent.

Not quite, at least not with Monsoon, who for some reason is hyped as **** throughout the lore. Monsoon could contend with RM Raiden, and tank his blows, even his physical strikes like kicks. RM Raiden is 10x him. Meanwhile, next mission, he could contend and defeat in base a duplicate body. Also the whole line against Sam implying such a thing. Any the monologue is like, 5 minutes. Short yes, but not so much shorter then other examples. Other then the 2h one.
And besides, it doesnt matter, youre asking for evidence he grew in strength did you not? Well there's examples, how much is just moving the goalposts, point is it happened.

I will make a separate thread disproving the 10x multiplier some other time.

No, each QTE is an example of him harming Armstrong. If you're talking examples of "he got stronger". Monsoon and seemingly Sam, there's two. Monsoon was seemingly hefty as well.

Yeah, sure. Each QTE is evidence of harming Armstrong. But the very first instance he did so was directly after the monologue. Each cutscene isn't of Raiden increasing in power. It was him consistently being at the power to harm Armstrong. Which again, means the jump happens just before the first hit of the second phase.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I was about to volunteer to make the x10 crt when I remembered the crt rule of 1 per verse

 

[AKM sama]

At this point, I am just inclined to wait for Andy's opinion and then tally the votes. Clearly both sides have their own interpretations and neither side is going to be convinced. The thread is getting dragged, and not much is coming out of it.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Phase 1 as in shirt Armstrong, Phase 2 as in shirtless amidst flames.



Cool, to bad it's easily proven that Muramusa did **** all in regards to Raiden physically hurting him and he's explicitly shown not in RM in all cinematics and cutscenes. And the very fact he can enter RM in both phases regardless of how much's doing, and it's scaled and implemented accordingly. Raiden was trying to kill in phase 1 dude, he literally says as much.




I mean, I'm using everything mate?



Yes, compared to phase 1 where you do 0% to 0.1/0.2%. And that's just in the gameplay itself let alone the scripted QTE's.



Yes. What does that have to do with Raiden going from being unable to hurt to being able to hurt him? Shit Armstrong could be ten billion times weaker then Raiden or ten billion times stronger, I said this numerous times before, all that matters is how durable Armstrong is and how much Raiden can physically do comparatively to how much he did previously.



11.5% if i recall, which is a far cry above 0% to 0.1% in the previous QTE, the fact Armstrong literally confirms that punch hurt him, when previously a punch to the face was laughed at shows that whatever the **** happened, Raiden is doing way more damage then he was before with just his fists.

Dude do you even know what my point is? It feels like you're arguing Twellas' claims, not mine.

Okay so arbitrary damage values that show theres still quite a difference and Raiden is nowhere near as strong as Armstrong and has to wittle him down over time is okay.

But Armstrong not having his nanomachines up when he gets hit by unarmed strikes and getting harmed by them is gameplay limitations?

Also you wanna say RM Raiden is x10 Monsoon, but I don't see alot of oneshotting going on in the Monsoon fight when you hit him. Guess gameplay damage values take precedence over your lore statements (which I still see no evidence of besides a guidebook page for his speed not his AP)

He is shown in ripper mode during that beginning cutscene. His voice is deep and scratchy like Jack's, he calls back to his old statements and talks on his bloodlust like Jack did, etc. Raiden may have been trying in Phase 1, doesn't mean he was full on going in Raw with his bloodlust and embracing his Jack The Ripper Persona (He kills mistral and thats way before Jack The Ripper becomes prominent in the story, him being willing to kill =/= him taking on the persona of the Ripper.)

 

[Chariot190]

You can't just go "he got visibly stronger, therefore it is canon". It's a visible inconsistency.

It's not just a "visible inconsistency", it's just a visible thing, the damage Armstrong takes in the QTE's reflect this, how Armstrong reacts reflects this, Armstrong himself even goes out and says multiple lines of dialogue that reflects this. It's not just a "oh this punch looked like it hurt him more", it did hurt him more, and just the punch, every single attack Raiden tossed. It's visibly shown, but also canonically shown, scripted, stated and more. q

It is so out of left field and never mentioned once.

And yet you've been given some examples and even a line from Raiden that suggests this. This would only hold true if the line and examples literally did not occur, but they did. So no, it's not out of left field, it's just not shoved in your face.

We have a name for such things called PIS. If such things were so simple, then make Sakura 5-C. She scales to harming Kaguya alongside Naruto and Sauske, right? There is no canon explanation for how Raiden directly got stronger so we don't accept the feat as consistent.

And this isn't PIS, it's shown plain as day to have happened, and nothing actually contradicts it. It's just your preconcieved notion of "Raiden couldnt possibly have gotten stronger" even though everything reflects that he did. Sakura doesnt scale because it's contradicted to hell and back right after, if Sakura for some reason ended up going up to Kags and throwing hands and hurting here over the course of a full fight multiple times with the clear intent to show that Sakura is able to hurt her now and literally nothing after the fact says otherwise, well, she'd be scaling.
Who the **** is "we", literally everybody accepts that Raiden managed to hurt Armstrong and scales accordingly, the issue lies in how we went from being unable to being able.

I will make a separate thread disproving the 10x multiplier some other time.

Or I could just ask twellas for the scan when he wakes up?

Yeah, sure. Each QTE is evidence of harming Armstrong. But the very first instance he did so was directly after the monologue. Each cutscene isn't of Raiden increasing in power. It was him consistently being at the power to harm Armstrong. Which again, means the jump happens just before the first hit of the second phase.

Cool. I get ya. See Monsoon and Sam line for other examples I guess. Bam there's two and a possible third+statement.

 

[Andytrenom]

Ovens has a good point. Harming someone you couldn't before in the same fight could easily be chalked up to PIS, unless it's explained in-universe

 

[Chariot190]

Ovens has a good point. Harming someone you couldn't before in the same fight could easily be chalked up to PIS, unless it's explained in-universe

It's not really PIS. And as mentioned before, there's other examples in game. And even a line from Raiden himself saying that it doesnt matter how strong or skilled an enemy is, sooner or later it wont be able to stop him. Paraphrased. Ignoring that Armstrong being folded by Raiden is, reiterated multiple times over in every single conceivable way, it's very explicitly intended in all possible ways and there's no contradictions after the fact to suggest Raiden didnt become that strong, there's nothing afterward.

Also untill I get the scan from Twellas, treat RM as a jump that's big enough to allow Raiden to instantly one shot people he couldn't prior. So, case remains with Monsoon. Raiden went from being able to one shot something that he outright couldnt in base when he went RM, and covered that RM power amp within less then like 15m.

 

[DaReaperMan]

We should probably ask Twellas get the Raiden says the whole "doesn't matter how skilled or strong someone is, ill beat them eventually" thing

 

[Chariot190]

We should probably ask Twellas get the Raiden says the whole "doesn't matter how skilled or strong someone is, ill beat them eventually" thing

But, i linked that already? Like, ten minutes ago.
And he linked it in like, the first two dozen posts of the thread?

 

[DaReaperMan]

But, i linked that already? Like, ten minutes ago.
And he linked it in like, the first two dozen posts of the thread?

Jeez, its been that long hasn't it, also you stated it, you didn't link it

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Cool. I get ya. See Monsoon and Sam line for other examples I guess. Bam there's two and a possible third+statement.

Monsoon was a literal power up. I have no idea how Sam's fight is proof of Raiden getting stronger since he doesn't?

Raiden didn't even have to enter Ripper mode to beat Monsoon, he just did because Monsoon was challenging his ideals. So

doesn't matter how skilled or strong someone is, ill beat them eventually

Source and context please, I beg of you.

But, i linked that already? Like, ten minutes ago.
And he linked it in like, the first two dozen posts of the thread?

Link it again if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Chariot190]

Jeez, its been that long hasn't it, also you stated it, you didn't link it

If you click the quote it links you to the vid.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I just asked for the scan ovens

 

[ShivaShakti]

It's not really PIS. And as mentioned before, there's other examples in game. And even a line from Raiden himself saying that it doesnt matter how strong or skilled an enemy is, sooner or later it wont be able to stop him. Paraphrased. Ignoring that Armstrong being folded by Raiden is, reiterated multiple times over in every single conceivable way, it's very explicitly intended in all possible ways and there's no contradictions after the fact to suggest Raiden didnt become that strong, there's nothing afterward.

Also untill I get the scan from Twellas, treat RM as a jump that's big enough to allow Raiden to instantly one shot people he couldn't prior. So, case remains with Monsoon. Raiden went from being able to one shot something that he outright couldnt in base when he went RM, and covered that RM power amp within less then like 15m.

Okay you wanna use in game damage values to determine character strength, but again I don't see alot of one shotting going on in the monsoon fight.

And that statement was a onetime thing against Sam, and there was little context for that, and can be interpreted as just a skill thing. "His fighting style uses a good amount of blunt strikes and throws too... but sooner or later, that won't be enough to stop me"

What supports this being a skill thing is Boris saying "In any case you cannot parry a throw. Do not let him grab you."

 

[DaReaperMan]

Okay you wanna use in game damage values to determine character strength, but again I don't see alot of one shotting going on in the monsoon fight.

And that statement was a onetime thing against Sam, and there was little context for that, and can be interpreted as just a skill thing. "His fighting style uses a good amount of blunt strikes and throws too... but sooner or later, that won't be enough to stop me"

Thank you for the scan, im fairly neutral on it, it could be RPL it could be AD

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can I just stress that you are reaching here. You are using statements that have no correlation to the Armstrong fight in context to justify the absurd amp in power.

I'm done arguing. If people see my arguments and don't agree with me that's fine. But it speaks volumes of our standards.

 

[Chariot190]

Monsoon was a literal power up. I have no idea how Sam's fight is proof of Raiden getting stronger since he doesn't?

Yeah no ******* shit Monsoon was a power up, Im talking about when Raiden folds and dismantles a duplicate body that's equal in durability to the original while in base. Codec, also the fact that Sam is pretty blatantly physically stronger then Raiden in quite a few of the exchanges, am I gonna have to start linking that shit too now?

Raiden didn't even have to enter Ripper mode to beat Monsoon, he just did because Monsoon was challenging his ideals. So

And Monsoon managed to proceed to tank his attacks just fine so...

Source and context please, I beg of you.

Literally did, twice, and it was even linked on page 1. It's almost like you haven't actually read the thread or been paying attention Ovens.

Link it again if you want to be taken seriously.

How about you learn how to read? Not my fault you can't pay attention properly. What do I need to link the scenes I talk about every single time I mention them even if I've already done so? Good to know, I'll make sure to post the exact same shit in every post and clog the thread up and then get bitched at for making long posts even though I'm being forced to do because of you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Cool off and listen to the most positive person in existence, its what I've been doing in-between checking for replies

@Chariot190 use this, for the love of Kojima.

 

[ShivaShakti]

How about you learn how to read? Not my fault you can't pay attention properly. What do I need to link the scenes I talk about every single time I mention them even if I've already done so? Good to know, I'll make sure to post the exact same shit in every post and clog the thread up and then get bitched at for making long posts even though I'm being forced to do because of you.

You were already told to calm down multiple times.

 

[Chariot190]

Can I just stress that you are reaching here. You are using statements that have no correlation to the Armstrong fight in context to justify the absurd amp in power.

I'm done arguing. If people see my arguments and don't agree with me that's fine. But it speaks volumes of our standards.

feeling's mutual. And I'm well aware that there's interoperation to be had with that line.
But the thing is, and? You asked for anything that would suggest Raiden can increase in power. Well, there's a statement that can be easily taken to mean exactly that (and given how strong Sam is and how Raiden couldnt access Dok canonically at that point...).

I mean, excuse you but by that logic absolutely everything that isnt in the Armstrong fight itself would "have no correlation", you even asked for examples elsewhere in the game, like yeah obviously those examples arent going to be related to Armstrong in particular, but it sets a precedence.

 

[Chariot190]

You were already told to calm down multiple times.

Nothing i said was wrong there. If I link something, and then I'm told to link it otherwise I'm not going to be taken seriously even though I did, not only when I first said it, but even quoted the original time it was posted in this thread. Yes, Im going to take offense to that.
Like honestly? Am I supposed to link something every single time? I think doing it a a good handful of times is good enough.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Sam is pretty blatantly physically stronger then Raiden in quite a few of the exchanges, am I gonna have to start linking that shit too now?

No he really isn't.

One clip shows him cutting into Sam and overpowering his grip. The other shows him clashing with Sam at a stalemate and neither are overpowering eachother.

 

[Chariot190]

Okay you wanna use in game damage values to determine character strength, but again I don't see alot of one shotting going on in the monsoon fight.

And that statement was a onetime thing against Sam, and there was little context for that, and can be interpreted as just a skill thing. "His fighting style uses a good amount of blunt strikes and throws too... but sooner or later, that won't be enough to stop me"

What supports this being a skill thing is Boris saying "In any case you cannot parry a throw. Do not let him grab you."

Wot. Monsoon can tank his blows? Other then the HF blade to the neck at the end, but we're talking physical strikes are we not?

It could be, but it could also be both, especially as in that situation when the codec is called, Sam is currently in the process of overwhelming Raiden with his bare hands casually while Raiden has the blade showing a clearly gap between them even then, even if it's not super large.

It's honestly both, power and skill given the context and situation ngl.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Nothing i said was wrong there. If I link something, and then I'm told to link it otherwise I'm not going to be taken seriously even though I did, not only when I first said it, but even quoted the original time it was posted in this thread. Yes, Im going to take offense to that.
Like honestly? Am I supposed to link something every single time? I think doing it a a good handful of times is good enough.

You still got angry in text, and this marks the third time I've used Bob Ross to try and get someone to calm down on the wiki today, twice here and once on Profile Deletions

 

[Chariot190]

No he really isn't.

One clip shows him cutting into Sam and overpowering his grip. The other shows him clashing with Sam at a stalemate and neither are overpowering eachother.

Yes, Sam with his bare hands can match Raiden with his sword. It takes Raiden effort to break through. **** Sam with his bare fists can contend with Raiden and fold him if given the chance but in phase 3 Raiden is now equal with him and overpowers him? And a line that could very well imply at least some degree of progress? Idk man.
(Also Sam is at least Monsoon tier, and Monsoon can contend with RM so even if you ignore the dupes..., with only a hour difference, Raiden progresses in just his base).
Uh, that's the end of the fight? The very last thing that happens.
As in, if there was an increase in anything, it would have happened already. Also happens after the Codec.

 

[Chariot190]

You still got angry in text, and this marks the third time I've used Bob Ross to try and get someone to calm down on the wiki today, twice here and once on Profile Deletions

Based Bob Ross poster.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Based Bob Ross poster.

He's the most positive person in existence, and he's also good for getting people to calm down because of it

 

[AKM sama]

At this point, I am just inclined to wait for Andy's opinion and then tally the votes. Clearly both sides have their own interpretations and neither side is going to be convinced. The thread is getting dragged, and not much is coming out of it.

What is the current tally?

This has gone long enough imho.

 

[ShivaShakti]

What is the current tally?

This has gone long enough imho.

13 agree with the OP

7 disagree

 

[Chariot190]

What is the current tally?

This has gone long enough imho.

Should probably get a unbiased 3rd part to summarize both parties point's and then see what happens. Whoever the **** wants to find a 3rd party though, be my guest, I couldn't find anyone knowledgeable while also having no real connections to anyone on both sides.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Should probably get a unbiased 3rd part to summarize both parties point's and then see what happens. Whoever the **** wants to find a 3rd party though, be my guest, I couldn't find anyone knowledgeable while also having no real connections to anyone on both sides.

Outside of Ant(whom I don't want to bother with doing something more then check a crt out) i don't really know any third parties

 

[Rikimarox2]

Been watching this for quite some time now, and I currently agree with Chariot here.

 

[ShivaShakti]

What is the current tally?

This has gone long enough imho.

13 agree with OP

8 Disagree including Riki who just voted.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure if I'm counted, but I do agree with removing the RPL/AD

 

[DaReaperMan]

AD has alot of stuff backing it, I don't want to get started on Raiden becoming one of the most skilled swordsmen by freaking reading a book about it