Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[Abstractions]

Literally don't care about RPL, AD or whatever we want to call it, I'm just not going to sit here and pretend Raiden couldnt hurt Armstrong and then make up excuses for as to why he could afterward. Also you didn't, at least not an objective one that doesn't rely on some pretty sus things.

It isn't me building Armstrong up as invincible, he can still be harmed, even by a miniscule degree.

You have made no objective explanation as to why, and claiming so is dishonest. You have made a subjective claim, sure, but not an objective one.

 

[Chariot190]

Honestly where was this when we decided to make every character in Metal Gear 8-B? Another thread I suppose.

You acting like a Navy Seal buff man can **** with supersoldiers, supernatural beings, and so on.
Armstrong has nothing to indicate he's that strong, and honestly? If you really wanna go the route of saying he can tank Raiden's blows unprotected, that's just gonna make everyone a **** ton stronger.
Though 8-B was based on two calcs, personally after going through all the games I see 8-C being more fair but eh, moot point, Armstrong is only 9-C without nano's.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well since Twellas has backed out of the debate and left the wiki, suppose i'll remove his name from the OP.

 

[AKM sama]

@Andytrenom @Wokistan @ByAsura @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva

If any of you guys have time, this thread could need some evaluation. Help will be appreciated.

If someone could provide a "short" summary for them to read, that would be helpful too.

 

[Chariot190]

It isn't me building Armstrong up as invincible, he can still be harmed, even by a miniscule degree.

You have made no objective explanation as to why, and claiming so is dishonest. You have made a subjective claim, sure, but not an objective one.

Yes, a miniscule degree (there's a good reason why i kept saying barely if at all), which is a far cry from what happens in phase 2, kinda my whole point?

What's objective is Raiden couldnt really hurt if at all Armstrong but in phase 2 he could. That's the objective claim. The rest, I specified.

 

[Chariot190]

Well since Twellas has backed out of the debate and left the wiki, suppose i'll remove his name from the OP.

Not how it works. Keep his name, he didnt spend 300 posts just to have you pull that.

 

[AKM sama]

He already left the wiki (see the message on his profile), no need to respond to him right now

A bit of an overreaction if you ask me, a decision taken in the spur of the moment over a thread and people disagreeing with him, but not uncommon. I hope he will calm down and return again when he feels better, like many other people who undergo similar emotions.

Well since Twellas has backed out of the debate and left the wiki, suppose i'll remove his name from the OP.

No. His name should still be there. Like Chariot said, that is not how it works.

 

[Abstractions]

What's objective is Raiden couldnt really hurt if at all Armstrong but in phase 2 he could. That's the objective claim.

And I offered up a clear explanation to you as to why that could be instead of some magical strength increase after being pummeled, which you were free to not accept, just as much as me not accepting the claim of RPL.

Miniscule damage is still damage, mind you, Clearly not invincible.

 

[ShivaShakti]

No. His name should still be there. Like Chariot said, this is not how it works.

as you wish

 

[Chariot190]

Miniscule damage is still damage, mind you, Clearly not invincible.

Ok? Yes, never my point, my point was that there's a very blatantly huge discrepancy between the amounts of damage.
There's a difference between being tagged a few hundred times and going "eh" to being floored, sure, the first may have hurt him, if even barely, but barely hurting and actively harming is completely different with the same attacks. This shouldnt even have to be explained here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Again, I must stress why is this even an argument in the first place? Reactive power level is so out of left field since we very literally never hear even a peep about it throughout the entire game. I have no doubts about Raiden getting stronger throughout the game, sure. But his strength came from character development, not physical upgrades. He was getting better at fighting as the game progressed, he was not physically getting stronger.

Also his power increase was gradual, not immediate. So a jump in AP like you're suggesting during the short period of time Raiden was fighting Armstrong is absurd. Sure, reactive power level could be the reason, but so is a plot hole. Without concrete evidence of reactive power level, rating it as such is disingenuous.

 

[Chariot190]

Again, I must stress why is this even an argument in the first place? Reactive power level is so out of left field since we very literally never hear even a peep about it throughout the entire game. I have no doubts about Raiden getting stronger throughout the game, sure. But his strength came from character development, not physical upgrades. He was getting better at fighting as the game progressed, he was not physically getting stronger.

Also his power increase was gradual, not immediate. So a jump in AP like you're suggesting during the short period of time Raiden was fighting Armstrong is absurd. Sure, reactive power level could be the reason, but so is a plot hole. Without concrete evidence of reactive power level, rating it as such is disingenuous.

Not entirely true, there's definitely a few statements and lines that at the very least, can easily be interpreted as such, which fyi is the subjective claims here, neither of us are 100% right on that right, but neither is wrong.

Gradual? Sure, it was at least 5 minutes pretty sure. And between Sam and Armstrong is two hours. Monsoon and Monsoon again is like, 10-20m, etc.
A plot hole? Not what a plot hole is, and when it happens so many times through the boss fight, idk man, seems pretty purposeful to me.
I mean, people want simply Accelerated Development not RPL.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

A separate point, but Sam cutting Armstrong where the black surface did not show was the whole point of him cutting off his arm. The nanomachines appearing under the skin could work on paper, sure, but it did not in practice.

 

[Moritzva]

I agree with Ovens. What is this, tsk.

 

[Chariot190]

A separate point, but Sam cutting Armstrong where the black surface did not show was the whole point of him cutting off his arm. The nanomachines appearing under the skin could work on paper, sure, but it did not in practice.

They only appeared afterwards? What matters was that he can harden internally and does so even when not surface level, we know it's something that he's capable of and it's automated so Character stupidity isnt an argument.
In the case with Sam. What happened there was Sam outsped the nano's and sliced the arm off, the nano's couldn't defend in time, there was no internal hardening in that instance either, only afterward.
Raiden also does basically the same thing, he enter blade mode and slashes away at the same point over and over again, wearing down the nano's faster then they can defend and they following it up by jamming his hand into his chest before the nano's can reform or regenerate.

That doesn't really apply for Raiden punching him a dozen times in the same spot.
Also you're ignoring the whole metric **** ton of sparks upon every impact (shown in the prerendered cutscenes when Raiden hits him at hardened places. Edit: Checked, the same effects for Raiden hitting the hard spots is used in phase 2 QTE's) or the whole he'd die thing, or the whole metal crunching. Not to mention, Raiden's physical strikes arent that far off the Muramusa's attacks against even unhardened parts so either way. But then again, this has all already been said, a very long time ago?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes, it was said, and I countered. Again, Doktor point is hyperbole at best. He had no experience in anything Armstrong related and had no proof to back up Armstrong killing Raiden in one blow. In fact the exact opposite happened, because Armstrong got a particularly powerful hit in, and it absolutely did not kill Raiden.

What do sparks have to do? Metal crunching too? What do they prove besides the fact that there are indeed sparks and metal hitting metal?

Ok, million dollar question: Could Raiden have killed Armstrong without Murasama? If so, why script an entire sequence dedicated to Raiden getting the Murasama?

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly where was this when we decided to make every character in Metal Gear 8-B? Another thread I suppose.

This is derailing but the scaling is 100% legit (except Armstrong but he isn't that ofc), only issue is the 8-B calc itself which is outdated due to using lightning stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, it was said, and I countered. Again, Doktor point is hyperbole at best. He had no experience in anything Armstrong related and had no proof to back up Armstrong killing Raiden in one blow. In fact the exact opposite happened, because Armstrong got a particularly powerful hit in, and it absolutely did not kill Raiden.

What the hell are you even responding to? You realize I ain't Twellas right? Like actually Ovens, I even went on record saying that Armstrong could be as weak as a human AP wise, it doesnt effect anything I'm saying and I never once mentioned Dok talking about Armstrong's physical strength to you? All that matters to my point is his durability, that being Armstrong's, not Raiden's, not Armstrong's AP, just his durability.

What do sparks have to do? Metal crunching too? What do they prove besides the fact that there are indeed sparks and metal hit metal?

Really? You're arguing Raiden is hitting unprotected spots are you not? For the argument to actually hold credence you're gonna have to explain why we can see vast amounts of sparks, metal crunching sounds and what even seems to be pieces of black shrapnel when Raiden hits him physically (used for when Muramusa chips away at him fyi too, in context that's clearly some nano's debris).

Ok, million dollar question: Could Raiden have killed Armstrong without Murasama? If so, why script an entire sequence dedicated to Raiden getting the Murasama?

Killed? No. Hurt? Yes. Nobody is saying Raiden could kill Armstrong without it, but that doesn't mean he couldnt hurt Armstrong without it. I said as much like, a dozen times now?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

the whole he'd die thing

Was this not in reference to Doktor's quote?

Really? You're arguing Raiden is hitting unprotected spots are you not? For you argument to actually hold credence you're gonna have to explain why we can see vast amounts of sparks, metal crunching sounds and what even seems to be pieces of black shrapnel (used for when Muramusa chips away at him fyi too).

I'm also arguing that Raiden and Armstrong are basically in the same ballpark in terms of AP and Dura. This argument doesn't require the need for reactive power level or accelerated development (which does not apply to specifically getting stronger during a fight). Armstrong can knock Raiden around, sure. But he isn't tearing Raiden apart limb from limb so why is he dramatically stronger than Raiden?

Killed? No. Hurt? Yes. Nobody is saying Raiden could kill Armstrong without it, but that doesn't mean he couldnt hurt Armstrong without it. I said as much like, a dozen times now?

Also Raiden became more confident in fighting Armstrong after getting the sword. All this "he can hurt Armstrong" only happens after getting the Murasuma. Which is like the biggest cue that he needs it to finish the fight. In a world where Bladewolf didn't give Raiden the sword, how do you figure Raiden was going to stop Armstrong? A thought inconceivable because he needs the sword.

It takes 0 mental backflips to believe the sword is the key to Raiden's success, and the source of him getting better at harming Armstrong compared to the Olympian mental gymnastics it takes to believe Raiden had reactive power level when it was never outright stated or shown prior.

 

[Chariot190]

Was this not in reference to Doktor's quote?

Not, that was me saying Armstrong would die if not protected. Wasn't talking about Dok's line.

I'm also arguing that Raiden and Armstrong are basically in the same ballpark in terms of AP and Dura. This argument doesn't require the need for reactive power level or accelerated development (which does not apply to specifically getting stronger during a fight). Armstrong can knock Raiden around, sure. But he isn't tearing Raiden apart limb from limb so why is he dramatically stronger than Raiden?

Ap? Well Armstrong is definitely stronger but if you want to believe Raiden physically, AP wise, isn't drastically below Armstrong's AP, well, ok I guess? Not relevant to my point. Durability though? Absolutely not, this shouldn't even be subject to debate, we get multiple clear cut sequences where Raiden can't do anything much if at all. Hell Raiden even hurts himself hitting him, twice.
idk, im not arguing Armstrong is a billion trillion whatever arbitrary number times stronger then Raiden, what I am saying is he's far and beyond more durable then what Raiden could physically output initially and we have blatant proof of that.
And you didn't answer my question, explain how that, if Armstrong is unprotected by nano's like you claim him to be, why do we see vast amounts of sparks as if Raiden was hitting heavy metal, metal crunching at various points, nanomachine shrapnel and so on?

Also Raiden became more confident in fighting Armstrong after getting the sword. All this "he can hurt Armstrong" only happens after getting the Murasuma. Which is like the biggest cue that he needs it to finish the fight. In a world where Bladewolf didn't give Raiden the sword, how do you figure Raiden was going to stop Armstrong? A thought inconceivable because he needs the sword.

Ok now you're just ignoring what I said. You realize this doesn't matter right? Without the sword could Raiden kill Armstrong? No he couldn't. He would be unable to kill Armstrong without it, but guess what? Raiden could still hurt him without the sword.
You're acting like Raiden would have needed to kill Armstrong with his bare fists to have gotten any stronger, in what world? Just because Jack couldn't punch out his heart like King Crimson to a basic ass human doesn't mean Raiden didnt grow in strength. So yes, you're right in that Raiden wouldn't be able to stop Armstrong, but you're wrong in that the sword helped Raiden harm him, especially when he outright loses the sword at points.

It takes 0 mental backflips to believe the sword is the key to Raiden's success, and the source of him getting better at harming Armstrong compared to the Olympian mental gymnastics it takes to believe Raiden had reactive power level when it was never outright stated or shown prior.

It also takes quite a bit of mental gymnastics to somehow believe that the sword is what allowed Raiden to ******* floor Armstrong and make him eat dirt and visually and audibly and canonically hurt him all without the blade being used as he literally loses it in such sequences. Not to mention the sword isnt exactly doing a whole lot beyond what Raiden himself is doing anyway so...
And again, there's actually multiple things throughout the game that would actually indicate Raiden progress in power, don't act like there isn't any, if your issue is "there's absolutely nothing that could possibly indicate such a thing elsewhere", well lucky you, there is, and it's been brought up quite a few times.

So, I say again.
Given we know Armstrong can still tank Muramusa, given we know he can even grab it with his bare hands and disarm Raiden. Given we know Raiden without the aid of the blade can physically harm and hurt Armstrong while previously, with the very same attacks and blows, he couldn't do much of anything.
Explain why you're behaving as if the Muramusa is what allowed Raiden to punch Armstrong on his ass, or kick him in the ribs or so on and so forth, as the Muramusa wasn't used in any of those exchanges. Your only argument here is "he wasnt protected", but given we know it's automatic and is even stated Armstrong has a AI center in his heart that controls every nano in his body automatically, can happen internally even if not visually on the surface, his whole body all the way through is nano's, Armstrong would literally die if not protected as he's just a buff dude without them and Raiden's blows create vast amounts of sparks, sounds and even nanomachine pieces and debris getting blown off with every blow (same effect as when Muramusa chips away at his chest among other things), why are you saying that he wasn't protected again?
Muramusa is a nonfactor, it helped Raiden kill him, but Raiden still showed the ability plain as day to inflict harm and damage far beyond what he did in Phase 1.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Counterpoint: Raiden did not harm Armstrong in any phase. Stagger him? Yes. More in phase 2? Sure. Dramatically hurt him? No.

Raiden's AP is constant and as I've said before, he got better over time because of character development. He was more focused and confident after knowing about Armstrong abilities and getting Murasama.

Why is it important that I point out that Raiden needs the sword to harm Armstrong? Because you literally cannot progress if you don't pick it up. It is integral to progressing the fight and chipping away at Armstrong's health. It is also the only thing that makes Armstrong bleed. He doesn't even nosebleed after getting punched in the face by Raiden. And you're telling me that's supposed to indicate he harmed Armstrong?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm seconding Abstractions and Sir Ovens here. I'm not big on the VS Battles seen with Metal Gear, but I have scene enough of the game to know that RPL is way off.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm siding with ovens and abstractions as well

 

[Chariot190]

Counterpoint: Raiden did not harm Armstrong in any phase. Stagger him? Yes. More in phase 2? Sure. Dramatically hurt him? No.

You're literally wrong.


"That one hurt!" He says, after being punched into submission and knocked on hiss ass while his health bar gets drained.
Literally confirms it himself, as if the massive amount of damage he took compared to phase 1 wasn't an indicator, or the fact he's visibly hurt.

You can not sit there and tell me that Armstrong wasn't hurt by Raiden at all in phase 2 because that's outright lying Ovens.

Raiden's AP is constant and as I've said before, he got better over time because of character development. He was more focused and confident after knowing about Armstrong abilities and getting Murasama.

Because character development lets you harm people who can tank blows from things 10x stronger then you? Or character development magically makes you be able to floor someone who can laugh off your attacks.
Raiden's AP is consistent? Blatantly false even outside of Armstrong but ignoring that, based on what? Your preconceived notion? Clearly that's not the case if Raiden goes from being demonstrably incapable of hurting him with his bare hands to hurting him with his bare hands.

Confidence doesn't magically make you go from being unable to do anything to your opponent even while actively trying to kill him, to the point you hurt yourself trying to hurt him, to magically being able to floor him. Again, Muramusa did **** all Ovens, why are you clinging to that when it's outright proven in the game itself to not be the case.
Armstrong can tank the Muramusa regardless of the user, he can disarm Raiden by grabbing it with his bare hands and ripping it out of his hands. Raiden, in retaliation, can fight him with his bare hands and put him into the ground, hurting him far and beyond what he previously managed, with his bare fists, without the aid of the sword. And this happens multiple times throughout the fight in varying ways.

You can't sit here and say "Muramusa let him hurt Armstrong" when there is multiple sequences where Raiden LOSES MURAMUSA and is forced to go hand to hand, and hurts him.

Why is it important that I point out that Raiden needs the sword to harm Armstrong?

You're pointing out he can't kill him without, which is true. But harm him? Ovens you're just lying now, come the **** on, Armstrong himself says Raiden hurt him with his punch.
Made even worse given the Muramusa doesnt actually make that huge a difference in function and Armstrong tanks it multiple times in that boss. Ignoring that the only reason ever actually stated as to why it was useful is that it allowed him to kill him using a specific technique in such a way.

Because you literally cannot progress if you don't pick it up.

You actually can you just can't kill him...

It is integral to progressing the fight and chipping away at Armstrong's health. It is also the only thing that makes Armstrong bleed. He doesn't even nosebleed after getting punched in the face by Raiden. And you're telling me that's supposed to indicate he harmed Armstrong?

Actually funnily enough, you do know that every single QTE that is integral to wearing Armstrong down is done without the sword. Yeah no shit. it's the only thing that makes him bleed, you know how much of an argument this is right? Of course the giant Katana is gonna draw blood with it's slicing over the blunt impacts of the fists, that's like, basic common sense? Applies to everything ever, not just this. Still doesn't mean Raiden didn't hurt Armstrong because he did and Armstrong confirms it himself.
Raiden hits him in the jaw not nose but ignoring that, you forget the dude has insane auto regeneration? Though you're acting like Raiden needed to have punched him so hard every punch draws massive amounts of blood or crippled him, that doesn't need to be the case you know? All that needs to happen is that Raiden's blows are doing more damage and hurting him now over what they were doing prior.

Ovens be real here, you're saying that Raiden without the blade could not hurt Armstrong.

This is blatantly false.



We are explicitly shown here that Raiden could stop his punch with one arm, rapid jab him in the side draining his HP bar with Armstrong visibly and audibly reacting to the blows (Prior, 180+ blows couldnt even really make him flinch), followed by a crosscounter that does massive damage to Armstrong, floors him and Armstrong then proceeds to state, "That one hurt!" in response to being punched in the face. Everything in this scene indicates every attack Raiden did actually hurt him with the final one being confirmed to have actually hurt (Previously, Raiden punched Armstrong in the face so hard, Armstrong said he couldnt hurt him being clarified, he then laughs at Raiden and said blow even hurt Raiden a bit).

This is objective, Raiden hurt Armstrong here far beyond what he could do prior, and Muramusa ain't why.



Or here, you're trying to say this didn't hurt Armstrong even though we can hear it hurt him. Again, without Muramusa as Raiden got disarmed. (Hell you can even see the sword stuck in the ground behind him).



Hell Raiden can even toss his ass hard enough to hurt him now, Muramusa a moment prior pinged off Armstrong fyi.

So again Ovens.
I ask, we have blatant examples of Armstrong being hurt by Raiden in phase 2 without the sword being a factor whatsoever, with even direct confirmation that it's hurting him being depicted in every single way possible. And it's done entirely under Raiden's own power.
So why are you trying to say that Raiden didnt hurt him, that's tantamount to lying.



If you cant see the difference between these physical exchanges then I don't know what to tell you but this isn't even subject to debate, argue all you want about some of the other shit but you can't sit here and claim Armstrong was never hurt in phase 2 because that's a lie.

Raiden couldnt kill Armstrong without Muramusa that's true, but he could hurt him in phase 2 without it. This is shown blatantly.
Acting like Raiden not ripping Armstrong apart with his fists or crippling him doesn't mean he didn't demonstrably get stronger comparatively to how he was doing in phase 1.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think Abstractions and Ovens points are mostly just wrong, considering there are several instances in phase 1 where Raiden is barely scratching Armstrong and during phase 2 where Raiden is beating the hell out of Armstrong physically through his nanomachines.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I think Abstractions and Ovens points are mostly just wrong, considering there are several instances in phase 1 where Raiden is barely scratching Armstrong and during phase 2 where Raiden is beating the hell out of Armstrong physically through his nanomachines.

That's what the debate is all about, I'll just say that so your comment won't become a subject of another useless discussion

 

[Chariot190]

Like let's cut the shit.

Do you not see the difference between these?



Full powered punch to the face does nothing and is confirmed to have not hurt. Vs. Punch to face floors him and is confirmed to have hurt.



180+ blows (in full scene) fail to do any real damage and is shrugged off and Raiden even strains himself doing it. Vs. 10 jabs with each one draining his health and visibly hurt him.

There's a very blatant difference here.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I mean.... you can see how he's able to block with nanomachines in one scene but not the other.

"But one is pre-rendered and other is a QTE." We literally see Armstrong's model change in a unique way during the final QTE, so this argument is moot. The developers are more than capable of changing models during QTEs to get a point across. That, combined with how the Jetstream Sam DLC highlights how Armstrong's nanomachines can be circumvented by hitting areas that they aren't covering makes me feel that this is deliberate. Raiden isn't getting stronger, he's exploiting a weakness.

I know these next few points weren't brought up in that, but I'm countering them preemptively.

As for Raiden damaging Armstrong's nanomachine covered arms in the final QTE, again, Murasama. You literally can't beat Armstrong with out it.

Sure, Sam wasn't able to defeat Armstrong with Murasama, but Raiden beat Sam. He physically overpowers Sam in QTEs even. Sam has the better sword, but Raiden's stronger and thus able to swing said sword hard enough to damage Armstrong's arms when Sam couldn't.

The blackness moving along Armstrong's body is a deliberate design. It showcases how his nanomachines work and it is constantly shown that they cannot be everywhere at once, which both Raiden and Sam exploit. To pretend otherwise is too deliberately ignore the silent storytelling beats that we are being given.

 

[DaReaperMan]

even though there's an instance of Raiden hurting a black spot on Armstrong with a kick, yeah, lets just forget about that right? it was posted earlier in the thread i believe

 

[Chariot190]

I mean.... you can see how he's able to block with nanomachines in one scene but not the other.

Ok so let's just ignore everything stated and said on this topic already. You know this is a literal nonargument right?
Also your wording "he blocks", no, he doesn't block, because Armstrong doesn't control them. It is stated, multiple times, but multiple characters, that the nanomachine's will automatically harden in response to any physical trauma, they do so automatically and with cognitive control.
And you somehow skipped over the fact that the nano's can still protect him and harden his body just below the surface even when the surface isn't visually hardened, the fact that whenever Raiden hits him a **** ton of sparks and metal clashing happens, the fact Armstrong would straight up die if not protected and to top it all off, nanomachine debris and shrapnel get ejected from point of impact, the exact same effect used while Raiden is chipping away at Armstrong with Muramusa.
Point is, the whole "well we don't visually see every single time Raiden hits him in a spot to instantly harden" to mean Armstrong is somehow not effected when that is proven false and spits in the face of absolutely everything we know about this.

"But one is pre-rendered and other is a QTE." We literally see Armstrong's model change in a unique way during the final QTE, so this argument is moot.

It's actually used several times? The **** are you talking about?

The developers are more than capable of changing models during QTEs to get a point across.

I mean sure they couldve but let's ignore how much shit that game went through as is and this being such a minor nitpick that is demonstrably and explicitly false and act like it's an actual legit point, it isn't.

That, combined with how the Jetstream Sam DLC highlights how Armstrong's nanomachines can be circumvented by hitting areas that they aren't covering makes me feel that this is deliberate. Raiden isn't getting stronger, he's exploiting a weakness.

The Sam DLC has Sam be able to hurt him simply outspeeding the nanomachines. Did he hit where they weren't? Yes, sure, but he also hit at such a speed the nano's could defend at all, it's not just "Sam hit a spoyt that wasn't defended", he "hit a spot where the nanomachines couldnt do anything at all". And moot point, Raiden hits Armstrong with muramusa in unblackened parts as well and doesnt instantly bisect so uh, your point? You're leaving out some crucial bits of information here.

As for Raiden damaging Armstrong's nanomachine covered arms in the final QTE, again, Murasama. You literally can't beat Armstrong with out it.

Nobody was gonna bring that up? Raiden hits Armstrong in a few blackened spots anyway, Muramusa also doesnt actually do damage. And "you cant beat Armstrong without it", yeah, you can't KILL Armstrong without it, but hurt him? Not the case, learn the difference between hurting and killing.

Sure, Sam wasn't able to defeat Armstrong with Murasama, but Raiden beat Sam. He physically overpowers Sam in QTEs even. Sam has the better sword, but Raiden's stronger and thus able to swing said sword hard enough to damage Armstrong's arms when Sam couldn't.

Sam was actually around the same level of power to Raiden. Also funnily enough Raiden makes note of how Sam is exceptionally strong and skilled, but if the fight drags on, no skill or power Sam has will be able to stop him. And you really arguing that Raiden's physical strength allowed him to make use of Muramusa better? Even though Armstrong still, like 3 times, ripped the blade out of Raiden's hands and forced him to go CQC.

The blackness moving along Armstrong's body is a deliberate design. It showcases how his nanomachines work and it is constantly shown that they cannot be everywhere at once, which both Raiden and Sam exploit. To pretend otherwise is too deliberately ignore the silent storytelling beats that we are being given.

Moot point, we see in multiple cases where Raiden punching him instantly protects the part punched. Raiden punching Armstrong in the side ten times with enough time for the nano's to react is blatantly not the same as "Sam uses his fastest technique to attack Armstrong at such a speed the nano's simply can't defend in time".

Again, ignoring we see internally that Armstrong is hardened within.

Like it or not, we see that Armstrong is hurt by Raiden in phase two.
And the only thing that suggests some weird discrepancy spits in the face of everything we know about them including the very effects that play when those exchanges happen.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

even though there's an instance of Raiden hurting a black spot on Armstrong with a kick, yeah, lets just forget about that right? it was posted earlier in the thread i believe

You're talking about Armstrong trying to body slam Raiden, when Raiden kicks him out of the air, right? happens in a QTE that isn't scripted. That QTE is canonically entirely avoidable to my knowledge.

 

[Chariot190]

You're talking about Armstrong trying to body slam Raiden, when Raiden kicks him out of the air, right? happens in a QTE that isn't scripted. That QTE is canonically entirely avoidable to my knowledge.

It's only avoidable if you go and fight Armstrong without Muramusa from what I recall.
Also I seriously hope you aren't about to just ignore QTE's that are there and fully intended to occur and even have a scripted order unless you go and actively try and skip them by doing shit like never picking up the sword again so he can never knock back out of your hands.

Anyway, wow cool in this QTE that happens 3 times at minimum after various health checkpoints, Armstrong's hit in the head with Muramusa, and his head wasn't protected by nano's here and he didnt instantly die.
Ignore the fact we hear and see metal clashing and nano shrapnel, even though the same happens when Raiden physically hits him.

Could it possibly because he's still just as sturdy and the reason why every single impact throw in the fight isn't dynamically shown to harden at the exact same spot aint an actual indication he wasn't actually protected? Given we have scripted QTE's where he's struck in the head while not darkened and it behaves as if he was?

Edit: Also the flip kick actually hits Armstrong in the center of his chest and takes off like 10.9% so like?

 

[DaReaperMan]

You're talking about Armstrong trying to body slam Raiden, when Raiden kicks him out of the air, right? happens in a QTE that isn't scripted. That QTE is canonically entirely avoidable to my knowledge.

Probably, I'm not the Metal Gear expert, if its RotMG or Warriors cats I got you covered, but I know enough about the Armstrong fight(I've watched it at least 20 times) to know what I'm talking about

 

[Qawsedf234]

Both times he's hitting Armstrong's head. Both times they're not black. And we know his whole head can be black because we literally see it before.

So I used a frame by frame site to watch the three linked videos:

• Link 1 = Raiden's cross hits Armstrong's neck which was already armored, rather than his head.
• Link 2 = Raiden's kick did hit Armstrong in the head without any nanomachine enhancement seemingly
• Link 3 = Armstrong's head was armored the moment of impact

 

[The_Wright_Way]

He blocks. Nanomachines automatically block. Superfluous to my point. Whether he controls them outright or not doesn't change my main argument.

Alright, I'll concede on that point. There are, in fact, nanomachines under Armstrong's entire skin that we can't see.

In fact, they're active all the time. They'd have to be for Armstrong to throw a High 7-C punch without blowing himself up. That's just physics. In fact, that's how we've treated durability for a long time. Meaning, no, Sam didn't out speed all of his nanomachines. He only outsped his nanomachines turning his skin black. The point where they reach maximum hardness. We even see the scene slow down to show us Sam silently make a note of this. He was still able to cut through the nanomachines beneath his skin because those are always active beneath his body.

I said preemptively because those were the only potential counter arguments I could think of at the time, so I decided to get them out of the way to save time just in case.

The only times I can think of where Raiden hits unblackened parts with his sword is during gameplay, outside of both cutscenes and QTEs.

I mean, yeah, of course he was. That's why the fight was even. Doesn't change the fact that Raiden overpowers him in scripted QTEs. Also, that's if the fight drags on. Nothing in universe suggests it does, especially sense Raiden was already hauling ass to stop Armstrong if I remember correctly.

PIS, because we blatantly see that they don't react. At least, not enough to turn his skin black. The fact that they should doesn't change that they observably don't.

 

[Chariot190]

He blocks. Nanomachines automatically block. Superfluous to my point. Whether he controls them outright or not doesn't change my main argument.

It does, and it'd do you good to actually word shit properly. I can't debate points if they're not worded accurately, and given this has been used by others as an actual argument (Armstrong willingly not hardening himself and it being CIS), you can see where the issue lies right?

Alright, I'll concede on that point. There are, in fact, nanomachines under Armstrong's entire skin that we can't see.

Neat.

In fact, they're active all the time. They'd have to be for Armstrong to throw a High 7-C punch without blowing himself up. That's just physics. In fact, that's how we've treated durability for a long time. Meaning, no, Sam didn't out speed all of his nanomachines. He only outsped his nanomachines turning his skin black. The point where they reach maximum hardness. We even see the scene slow down to show us Sam silently make a note of this. He was still able to cut through the nanomachines beneath his skin because those are always active beneath his body.

More or less yeah, Dok even makes note of how Armstrong is basically all nano's and is a walking human example of claytronic on steroids. And that he's a human built not of flesh, but of nano's.
Sure why not, (though it was also Sam's most powerful attack as well but eh).
Doesnt change my point, Raiden couldnt hurt Armstrong regardless of the visual indication of his skin, second phase he could. Point remains the same, nothing has changed.

The only times I can think of where Raiden hits unblackened parts with his sword is during gameplay, outside of both cutscenes and QTEs.

I literally linked one though, he smacks him in the head while not black. In a QTE, that happens at least three times (Armstrong always jumps up to toss a section after various health check points. He'll also always do it at the end).

I mean, yeah, of course he was. That's why the fight was even. Doesn't change the fact that Raiden overpowers him in scripted QTEs. Also, that's if the fight drags on. Nothing in universe suggests it does, especially sense Raiden was already hauling ass to stop Armstrong if I remember correctly.

The fight was even? At least not initially, Raiden was humiliated, laughed at thrice, and couldn't do anything beyond be a nuisance at best, this is clearly not the case in phase 2 where Armstrong goes on to state things like Raiden's blow hurt him and so on, hell he even says it's the greatest fight of his life or yells in anger.
Was Raiden hauling ass to beat him? Yes, doesn't change the fact the QTE's are indeed canon, oh which he can hurt Armstrong in the QTE's, even kicking him in the chest. And not even the example QAWSD linked, I'm talking about the flip kick, one of Raiden's feet hits him dead on in the chest where the core of the nano's is located.

PIS, because we blatantly see that they don't react. At least, not enough to turn his skin black. The fact that they should doesn't change that they observably don't.

That's not what PIS is. This isn't even plot relegated, this is simply how it's portrayed in game. Hell you could probably rip Armstrong's textures and models and find a big lack of harden body parts beyond his neck to abdomen/arms outside of prerendered shit. And still, not a example of PIS. Raiden hurt him, multiple times, consistently even within phase 2, in those examples we see effects that indicate he's hardened and protected, such as the sparks, clashing metal and even shrapnel, which funnily enough is used when Raiden chips away at the black parts with Muramusa. And don't start with the "they observably don't" when this whole thread was been arguing the most blatant visual observable examples and yet here we are.
(Ignoring without being protected he has like 9-C durability so...).

 

[DaReaperMan]

It does, and it'd do you good to actually word shit properly. I can't debate points if they're not worded accurately, and given this has been used by others as an actual argument (Armstrong willingly not hardening himself and it being CIS), you can see where the issue lies right?



Neat.



More or less yeah, Dok even makes note of how Armstrong is basically all nano's and is a walking human example of claytronic on steroids. And that he's a human built not of flesh, but of nano's.
Sure why not, (though it was also Sam's most powerful attack as well but eh).
Doesnt change my point, Raiden couldnt hurt Armstrong regardless of the visual indication of his skin, second phase he could. Point remains the same, nothing has changed.



I literally linked one though, he smacks him in the head while not black. In a QTE, that happens at least three times (Armstrong always jumps up to toss a section after various health check points. He'll also always do it at the end).



The fight was even? At least not initially, Raiden was humiliated, laughed at thrice, and couldn't do anything beyond be a nuisance at best, this is clearly not the case in phase 2 where Armstrong goes on to state things like Raiden's blow hurt him and so on, hell he even says it's the greatest fight of his life or yells in anger.
Was Raiden hauling ass to beat him? Yes, doesn't change the fact the QTE's are indeed canon, oh which he can hurt Armstrong in the QTE's, even kicking him in the chest. And not even the example QAWSD linked, I'm talking about the flip kick, one of Raiden's feet hits him dead on in the chest where the core of the nano's is located.



That's not what PIS is. This isn't even plot relegated, this is simply how it's portrayed in game. Hell you could probably rip Armstrong's textures and models and find a big lack of harden body parts beyond his neck to abdomen/arms outside of prerendered shit. And still, not a example of PIS. Raiden hurt him, multiple times, consistently even within phase 2, in those examples we see effects that indicate he's hardened and protected, such as the sparks, clashing metal and even shrapnel, which funnily enough is used when Raiden chips away at the black parts with Muramusa. And don't start with the "they observably don't" when this whole thread was been arguing the most blatant visual observable examples and yet here we are.
(Ignoring without being protected he has like 9-C durability so...).

9-C to 8-C durability lol

 

[Chariot190]

9-C to 8-C durability lol

7-C actually if we act like he's not protected. Given Raiden is 7-C at this point (or low 7-C, forget which).

 

[DaReaperMan]

7-C actually if we act like he's not protected. Given Raiden is 7-C at this point (or low 7-C, forget which).

Raiden seems to still be High 7-C on his page, since the rest of WoD are now also High 7-C, so I dunno

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I was talking about Raiden's fight with Sam when I mentioned the fight being even.