Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[ShivaShakti]

So i'm making this thread to go over Raiden's Reactive Power Level, the context surrounding it, and why I personally think it should be removed.

So to start off, lets address the reasoning as to why he currently he has this listed in his power set. "Went from having his punches no-sold by Armstrong to being able to knock him down in the span of a few minutes".

So the evidence for this is two scenes.

This first one here, shows Raiden punching Armstrong over and over, and doing seemingly little to no harm. Then later on the final phase of the fight, this happens. Raiden is suddenly able to punch Armstrong and send him flying with his unarmed strikes. This reasoning however, ignores everything that happens between these two scenes.

First of all, Raiden before the final phase starts obtains the Murasama blade. The strength and quality of this sword is hyped up to be a lot better than most standard HF Blades due to the quality of the original weapon as pointed out in this scene, as well it's weapon description. This sword had much higher cutting power than Raiden's own HF Blade, and he uses it in the fight with Armstrong, and its implied said blade as actually breaking and weakening his nanomachines overtime. In this scene near the end of the fight, Raiden is shown swinging the blade as Armstrong attacks, and causing cracks to appear in his skin after making contact. Furthermore, the blade in this instance is shown to be capable of completely dismantling and opening up the nanomachines surrounding Armstrong's chest cavity with repeated strikes in blade mode. So already we have the implications of Raiden just having better weaponry to deal with the durability given by Armstrong's nanomachines, but that isn't all.

There are other implications ontop of this to further show why Raiden is preforming much better than earlier. In this scene, he can be seen giving a speech right as he obtains Muramasa. "I said my sword was a tool of justice. Not used in anger. Not used for vengeance. But now, now i'm not so sure. Besides. This isn't my sword." Take notice of his voice because that will be important. As the scene continues and he says "Let's Dance", you can see a Red Glint in his eye before the fight starts.

A bit earlier in the game, during the moonsoon boss battle you unlock "Ripper Mode". In the cutscene before said fight starts this happens. Hit voice gets progressively deeper and more scratchy, like in the earlier scene, and his eyes gains a red glint. This is an important part of his character development in the game, as it showcases him embracing his "Jack The Ripper" Persona, and his violent nature. This has been shown to actually AMP him in battle (Its even supported by the gameplay mechanics as the Ripper Mode is a power up you can activate in game.) Due to the similarities between this scene, and the other scene right before the Armstrong fight starts it seems pretty clear to point out that another explainable source of his power is him using the Jack The Ripper Persona (Which is currently listed as Rage Power and Multiple Personalities on his page.)

So pretty much, him managing to floor Armstrong with punches after being no-sold, is a result of not only him getting access to a far better weapon, but also the fact he's getting a Jack The Ripper amp which he already his. Him being strong enough to harm Armstrong isn't something thats just pulled from thin air due to him "adapting".

For these reasons I believe his Reactive Power level should be removed. Theres nothing really implying that he has it unless you ignore the inbetween context, and with he context surrounding it it points to other things and not just him getting stronger out of nowhere.

Agree: New, Weekly, Armor, Grath, Medeus, Creature, Abstractions, DMUA, AKM, Mori, Ovens, Wright_Way, Maverick, Sheev

Disagree: Twellas, Arcker, Chariot, Spooky, Reaper, Soul, Riki

 

[Qawsedf234]

This has been shown to actually AMP him in battle

Ripper Mode is like, a 10x speed amp and a massive strength amp. Combined with a superior blade its not shocking that he damages Armstrong during the final stage of their encounter when he could barely scratch him right before.

 

[Newendigo]

I agree with the removal, but I think this issue could be resolved in few words. Let me explain

Durability, like AP, Speed and Stamina, is not a static statistic, it doesn't stay with the same performance forever, things wear down overtime.

You could punch a wall once without suffering (Depending on the strength) notable injury aside from pain, but if you keep punching your fist will get its skin, tissue and bone teared and broken overtime, same could happen with the wall, just replace a fist with a sledgehammer, 1-hole 1 hit, bigger hole 2-3 hits until it eventually crumbles.

Raiden could have just simply damaged Armstrong nanomachines after several strikes, until he could crack the reinforced skin with a few swings.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I agree with this as well

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with this too.

 

[Armorchompy]

I do agree with this as well, I know Twellas was the one who made the CRT for its addition, so contact him I guess.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I do agree with this as well, I know Twellas was the one who made the CRT for its addition, so contact him I guess.

Whats his tag?

 

[Armorchompy]

@Twellas

 

[Twellas]

Kind of in a bad spot right now both mentally and work-wise, and it's late. I'll respond when I feel like it/can, especially since half of this thread (the idea of Raiden going Ripper Mode) I already addressed and debunked before the forum move and was the first thing I reworked about MGR and the Murasama argument doesn't hold up either. You also completely ignored the Monsoon thing, which is perhaps even more blatant than the Armstrong instance, which makes me wonder if you even read the profile properly before making this, hell, you even ignored part of the stuff from the Armstrong fight itself

 

[ShivaShakti]

Kind of in a bad spot right now both mentally and work-wise, and it's late. I'll respond when I feel like it, especially since half of this thread (the idea of Raiden going Ripper Mode) I already addressed and debunked before the forum move and was the first thing I reworked about MGR and the Murasama argument doesn't hold up either. You also completely ignored the Monsoon thing, which is perhaps even more blatant than the Armstrong instance, which makes me wonder if you even read the profile properly before making this, hell, you even ignored part of the stuff from the Armstrong fight itself

I'll believe it when I see it.

Not only did I read the profile, but I also played the game.

I also don't really see what you're meaning to point out considering... The reasoning for Reactive Power level was pretty short and clear cut. I don't know why you're bringing up all this other info to debunk me when it has nothing to do with it. The Monsoon argument doesn't really seem viable either but thats not the main reason why its even on the profile. The Monsoon double isn't even addressed by the plot or greater narrative as much as the Armstrong instance.

In fact you can argue the spare body is a bit weaker than the real Monsoon if anything. They explicitly point out that the double of Mistral and Monsoon are AI controlled, and in the Monsoon fight specifically, its even stated "It's AI controlled, it should pose no problem for you, yes?" Upscaling an AI controlled body double that isn't even treated as much of a threat for said reasoning seems dubious at best.

And as for the whole Monsoon scaling to Raiden's ripper mode, this also is contestable. Monsoon's whole gimmick in his fight, is that it's extremely hard to hit him. Trying to attack him normally results in him detaching his limbs and dodging all of your attacks. So you could argue he doesn't even scale fully to Raiden's Physicals in Ripper Mode.

 

[Twellas]

I'll believe it when I see it.

oh, you WILL see it, just you wait for me to sort more important things out

 

[Arcker123]

First of all, Raiden before the final phase starts obtains the Murasama blade. The strength and quality of this sword is hyped up to be a lot better than most standard HF Blades due to the quality of the original weapon as pointed out in this scene, as well it's weapon description. This sword had much higher cutting power than Raiden's own HF Blade, and he uses it in the fight with Armstrong, and its implied said blade as actually breaking and weakening his nanomachines overtime. In this scene near the end of the fight, Raiden is shown swinging the blade as Armstrong attacks, and causing cracks to appear in his skin after making contact. Furthermore, the blade in this instance is shown to be capable of completely dismantling and opening up the nanomachines surrounding Armstrong's chest cavity with repeated strikes in blade mode. So already we have the implications of Raiden just having better weaponry to deal with the durability given by Armstrong's nanomachines, but that isn't all.

This is more of a strength feat, armstrong can straight up no sell the murasama and there is not any proof that it got better when raiden got it

There are other implications ontop of this to further show why Raiden is preforming much better than earlier. In this scene, he can be seen giving a speech right as he obtains Muramasa. "I said my sword was a tool of justice. Not used in anger. Not used for vengeance. But now, now i'm not so sure. Besides. This isn't my sword." Take notice of his voice because that will be important. As the scene continues and he says "Let's Dance", you can see a Red Glint in his eye before the fight starts.

A bit earlier in the game, during the moonsoon boss battle you unlock "Ripper Mode". In the cutscene before said fight starts this happens. Hit voice gets progressively deeper and more scratchy, like in the earlier scene, and his eyes gains a red glint. This is an important part of his character development in the game, as it showcases him embracing his "Jack The Ripper" Persona, and his violent nature. This has been shown to actually AMP him in battle (Its even supported by the gameplay mechanics as the Ripper Mode is a power up you can activate in game.) Due to the similarities between this scene, and the other scene right before the Armstrong fight starts it seems pretty clear to point out that another explainable source of his power is him using the Jack The Ripper Persona (Which is currently listed as Rage Power and Multiple Personalities on his page.)

This does not prove he was using ripper mode. Does mistral have ripper mode because her eyes were glowing, second raiden lacks the red aura and maniacal laugh we saw in the monsoon fight when raiden used ripper mode

 

[Arcker123]

In fact you can argue the spare body is a bit weaker than the real Monsoon if anything. They explicitly point out that the double of Mistral and Monsoon are AI controlled, and in the Monsoon fight specifically, its even stated "It's AI controlled, it should pose no problem for you, yes?" Upscaling an AI controlled body double that isn't even treated as much of a threat for said reasoning seems dubious at best.

This could easily be about monsoons skill, this was supposed to be his spare body if his original one was destroyed, why would it be weaker. Also the guy stating this is a fanboy of raiden with no combat experience

 

[Twellas]

This could easily be about monsoons skill, this was supposed to be his spare body if his original one was destroyed, why would it be weaker. Also the guy stating this is a fanboy of raiden with no combat experience

it is, Doktor outright says in a codec call "the AI will not perform up to the organic original in many respects. Such things as speed, agility, accuracy", he also says "They can be used for spare parts in case of damage, or if the original body is completely destroyed... The brain can be transplanted over for a quick recovery", which means that physically speaking they are equal to their normal bodies, the only difference is in skill and speed. Dok saying that Monsoon's spare body should "pose no problem" is 100% moot because in a codec call he says "Well, bear in mind that these spares retain all (of) the original body's abilities. I would still exercise caution, if I were you".

This is just one of the many problems with the arguments brought up, as i said, I'll wait to be completely free and more tranquil before making a big post to address everything

 

[Arcker123]

Sign me up for disagreeing with op

 

[Arcker123]

Also about the ripper mode point, if the intent is for him to be in ripper mode, why isn't he in ripper mode when the gameplay begins, this happened in the monsoon fight, so why not here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because it's a gameplay mechanic meant to give more depth to Rising, so having it always on for the most important fight in the game would completely nullify that?

 

[Arcker123]

Because it's a gameplay mechanic meant to give more depth to Rising, so having it always on for the most important fight in the game would completely nullify that?

fair enough

 

[Twellas]

fair enough

it's really not

Because it's a gameplay mechanic meant to give more depth to Rising, so having it always on for the most important fight in the game would completely nullify that?

literal non argument, how does giving perma Ripper Mode during the cathartic fight of the game nullify it? It doesn't add much in the way of depth. it doesn't alter the gameplay in any way other than BM slowing down time more, there's nothing to nullify and we know for a fact they don't care about it for Monsoon's fight, why would they suddenly care about it during the climax of the game? Why would they make such a comprimise in how the story is displayed now?

 

[Armorchompy]

Because Ripper Mode deal way more damage than normal attacks, Blade Mode isn't its main thing, you're meant to turn it on when you're about to wail on a boss for extra damage, and that factor would be removed if it was always on. Hell, since it ruins your combos completely against normal dudes, you can say Ripper Mode was specifically intended for boss battle. You do realize Monsoon's fight is a tutorial for Ripper Mode?

 

[Arcker123]

Just gonna point out that Armstrong has a 200% health bar

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.

 

[Arcker123]

if the problem here is that ripper mode would do too much damage, armstrong having double the health of monsoon would cancel that out no?

 

[Armorchompy]

Not really, he's the final boss, he's meant to be way tougher than anyone else. Besides, if Raiden had Ripper Mode here, the HP would be balanced around that instead, so it'd be harder, just with less depth.

 

[Arcker123]

eh, i can agree to that i guess, the actual point is the evidence that Raiden used ripper mode feels very lackluster, the red glint isn't even special to Raiden

 

[Twellas]

Because Ripper Mode deal way more damage than normal attacks, Blade Mode isn't its main thing, you're meant to turn it on when you're about to wail on a boss for extra damage, and that factor would be removed if it was always on. Hell, since it ruins your combos completely against normal dudes, you can say Ripper Mode was specifically intended for boss battle. You do realize Monsoon's fight is a tutorial for Ripper Mode?

How is "it does more damage" even an argument when Armstrong has double the HP of every other boss and can heal? And they could do the same thing they did with Monsoon, just pump up his hp to make him appear like a normal boss, it's not like Armstrong is some masterclass in fair game design, he has a homing grab that insta-kills you on harder difficulties. Armstrong would also still have depth if RM was perma-on, ffs they made a whole h2h system just for this fight, and there's the whole "losing your sword" mechanic, none of the depth in Armstrong's fight would be hindered by Ripper Mode being permanently on. What does "you're meant to turn it on when you're about to wail on a boss for extra damage" even mean? How is that relevant at all? I don't know if you realize the degree of mental gymnastics you are applying to justify this thing

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, damage ratings are usually game mechanics and not the most reliable source of scaling; especially if sometimes damage can be done via being sharper or having better precision rather than raw energy yield. Though, I know in the case here, it's simply higher frequency.

 

[Arcker123]

Just a heads up, damage ratings are usually game mechanics and not the most reliable source of scaling; especially if sometimes damage can be done via being sharper or having better precision rather than raw energy yield. Though, I know in the case here, it's simply higher frequency.

No one is using damage to scale, my argument is that if raiden was meant to have used ripper mode in the fight, they would have at least drawn raidens red aura in ripper mode, or start the fight in ripper mode, as this is the case the only other time he used ripper mode canonically

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was arguing in general not at anyone.

 

[Arcker123]

eh, i can agree to that i guess, the actual point is the evidence that Raiden used ripper mode feels very lackluster, the red glint isn't even special to Raiden

To get back on track, just gonna leave this here

 

[Twellas]

The red glint isn't even special for Raiden himself, ffs it appears when he cuts those planes. It's nothing more than a sign of determination

BTW, i suggest you wait for me to make my big post addressing everything in a more orderly fashion, so that we can discuss everything more in depth

 

[Armorchompy]

How is "it does more damage" even an argument when Armstrong has double the HP of every other boss and can heal? And they could do the same thing they did with Monsoon, just pump up his hp to make him appear like a normal boss, it's not like Armstrong is some masterclass in fair game design, he has a homing grab that insta-kills you on harder difficulties. Armstrong would also still have depth if RM was perma-on, ffs they made a whole h2h system just for this fight, and there's the whole "losing your sword" mechanic, none of the depth in Armstrong's fight would be hindered by Ripper Mode being permanently on. What does "you're meant to turn it on when you're about to wail on a boss for extra damage" even mean? How is that relevant at all? I don't know if you realize the degree of mental gymnastics you are applying to justify this thing

?? My argument is that he doesn't have ripper mode always on because it's a tool at your disposal that would be completely removed if they'd made it always be there. It's not like the fight would be super bad if you couldn't use it, but it'd still be slightly worse. It's a stylish action game, of course it's gonna give you as many tools to play with as possible. And considering Ripper Mode is always there, I don't really see a reason to assume Raiden didn't use it despite being very much weaker than Armstrong.

 

[Arcker123]

I don't really see a reason to assume Raiden didn't use it despite being very much weaker than Armstrong.

This is an action game like bayonetta and dmc, you should have to prove the character used a very specific part of their moveset, not the other way around

 

[Armorchompy]

This is an action game like bayonetta and dmc, you should have to prove the character used a very specific part of their moveset, not the other way around

"He was getting stomped real bad and he needed all the help he could have gotten" is enough proof I believe

 

[Arcker123]

Or better yet he could have reactively adapted, my proposition requires less assumptions

 

[Armorchompy]

Because Ripper Mode is a power he canonically has, while RPL is something we assumed exists? Yours is a much bigger assumption.

 

[Arcker123]

You have to assume that he used ripper mode with absolutely no evidence, mine relies on what we are shown but i digress, let's wait for twellas big post

 

[Twellas]

"He was getting stomped real bad and he needed all the help he could have gotten" is enough proof I believe

But it simply doesn't work like this here, you can't just say "yeah, he probably used it" when everything we are shown proves otherwise, because I can't stress this enough, none, NONE of the cutscenes of the last fight show Raiden even remotely in Ripper Mode, hell, the last cutscene shows Raiden fully calm, contemplative, and he even takes time to listen to Armstrong's last words, which is completely incompatible to what we are shown of Ripper Mode

 

[Twellas]

and after this, I shut my hole up until my big post, which I don't think will be today, but we'll see

 

[ShivaShakti]

This is more of a strength feat, armstrong can straight up no sell the murasama and there is not any proof that it got better when raiden got it

This does not prove he was using ripper mode. Does mistral have ripper mode because her eyes were glowing, second raiden lacks the red aura and maniacal laugh we saw in the monsoon fight when raiden used ripper mode

So first of all this isn't Armstrong "No selling Muramasa". He's clearly fighting back and defending himself from Sam's attacks, no just standing there and tanking all of his hits like he did when he was toying with Raiden. Furthermore, should I point out that in this point in the story Sam was a bit weaker as well. Raiden points out in his fight Sam had little to no cybernetic enhancements in his fight, and in this instance Sam has even less.

Second of all, this is a complete false equivalence. Mistral and Raiden are different characters, and the Red Eye glint in Raiden's context is shown to be mainly associated with him when he goes Jack The Ripper. Its seen in the monsoon fight when he uses it. Him lacking his "maniacal laugh" does not disprove Raiden embracing his Jack Persona as there are other hints to it present in the cutscene before the final fight (Such as his red eye glint which I pointed out, and the fact his voice gets deeper and scratchier as he does when he is The Ripper.) The mix of these two traits seem to be pointing towards him using The Ripper alongside the words of his speech (His words calling back to his "Tool of Justice" phrase and him disregarding it lines up.)