Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[Twellas]

No real narrative basis for RPL and you can point to other things to explain his boost in power

no, there aren't

Raiden kind of really has no real reason to not use RM considering he's meant to be going all out and is pretty bloodlusted at this point

Everything we are shown outright debunks that he went RM, stop it

The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling.

thus far the best argument agains the AP boost is saying "The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling", which, suffice to say, is not a valid argument

 

[Twellas]

Y'all keep going on how RPL has "no basis in the story" and then say shit that either has NO backing from the story or is outright contraddicted by what we are shown, IE "Armstrong's nanomachines were getting weaker", "Raiden went Ripper Mode"

 

[Chariot190]

No real narrative basis for RPL and you can point to other things to explain his boost in power,

And? It happened, it's absolutely undeniable it happened, just because you're not spoonfed a indepth explanation doesn't detract that it actually occurred and every single argument as to why it didn't happen is even more baseless or straight up based on a falsehood. We blatantly see Armstrong go from being untouchable to being floored, this happened.

and Raiden kind of really has no real reason to not use RM considering he's meant to be going all out and is pretty bloodlusted at this point.

And yet he doesn't. It doesn't matter if you think he should have, if he didn't do it then he didn't do it. The absolute best you can say is he used RM at some point in the fight, but he most certainly didn't use it the whole time given we explicitly see him in cutscenes preceding and following the fight where he isn't in RM.

The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling.

You keep saying that but neither are the arguments saying he didn't get stronger, hell every argument given this far is either demonstrably false or based on actual fake news, yet I can supply a dozen examples of Raiden explicitly overpowering Armstrong, harming him and making him eat dirt in canonical sequences all without any outside interference or forces helping Raiden.

 

[ShivaShakti]

no, there aren't

Everything we are shown outright debunks that he went RM, stop it

thus far the best argument agains the AP boost is saying "The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling", which, suffice to say, is not a valid argument

You haven't really debunked anything. There isn't anything really objectively wrong here a much as you wish to say it, as his RPL is kind of based around subjectivity, since there really aren't objective statements or things in the narrative pointing to RPL outright. Where as there other things you can say are more likely to have happened. Hell if you wanted to you could chalk it up to PIS if you want.

And? It happened, it's absolutely undeniable it happened, just because you're not spoonfed a indepth explanation doesn't detract that it actually occurred and every single argument as to why it didn't happen is even more baseless or straight up based on a falsehood. We blatantly see Armstrong go from being untouchable to being floored, this happened.



And yet he doesn't. It doesn't matter if you think he should have, if he didn't do it then he didn't do it. The absolute best you can say is he used RM at some point in the fight, but he most certainly didn't use it the whole time given we explicitly see him in cutscenes preceding and following the fight where he isn't in RM.



You keep saying that but neither are the arguments saying he didn't get stronger, hell every argument given this far is either demonstrably false or based on actual fake news, yet I can supply a dozen examples of Raiden explicitly overpowering Armstrong, harming him and making him eat dirt in canonical sequences all without any outside interference or forces helping Raiden.

I've already given points for him being in RM. He was bloodlusted, his eye stayed glowing in the beginning cutscene of the fight, the fact he references early lines to his bloodlust and his persona, as well as the fact his voice starts sounding more and more like Jack throughout that.

 

[Chariot190]

They are still free to disagree or think your arguments are invalid.

They can disagree of course, but if the counterarguments have zero basis or are blatantly false, their disagreement doesn't count for anything. That's how this works.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You haven't really debunked anything. There isn't anything really objectively wrong here a much as you wish to say it, as his RPL is kind of based around subjectivity, since there really aren't objective statements or things in the narrative pointing to RPL outright. Where as there other things you can say are more likely to have happened. Hell if you wanted to you could chalk it up to PIS if you want.

I've already given points for him being in RM. He was bloodlusted, his eye stayed glowing in the beginning cutscene of the fight, the fact he references early lines to his bloodlust and his persona, as well as the fact his voice starts sounding more and more like Jack throughout that.

Well, there are two people I'm facepalming at today on the wiki, you are grasping real hard at straws here.

 

[Chariot190]

I've already given points for him being in RM.

And they're all wrong and based on conjecture at best? Not exactly a solid basis when your best argument is based on a "well MAYBE".

He was bloodlusted, his eye stayed glowing in the beginning cutscene of the fight, the fact he references early lines to his bloodlust and his persona, as well as the fact his voice starts sounding more and more like Jack throughout that.

Yes and? Eye glowing red means literally nothing, that happens all throughout the game by every character? Bloodlust doesn't matter, it's not mutually exclusive. His voice sounds different? Not really, I can give examples where he sounds like that even before getting RM. And you seem to have forgot something, there is a single universal attribute that is ALWAYS shown in RM, in fact it's the primary way to tell he's in it, abd that's the aura, which he lacks in all your examples, meaning? He wasn't in RM, no aura, no RM.

 

[SpookyShadow]

You haven't really debunked anything. There isn't anything really objectively wrong here a much as you wish to say it, as his RPL is kind of based around subjectivity, since there really aren't objective statements or things in the narrative pointing to RPL outright. Where as there other things you can say are more likely to have happened. Hell if you wanted to you could chalk it up to PIS if you want.

Most of the wiki is based around subjectivity, but the subjectivity that is closest to the facts. That's why this thread exists in the first place. The side with better arguments wins and either gets rid of RPL, or makes it stay still.

I've already given points for him being in RM. He was bloodlusted, his eye stayed glowing in the beginning cutscene of the fight, the fact he references early lines to his bloodlust and his persona, as well as the fact his voice starts sounding more and more like Jack throughout that.

Yeah what Chariot said, he ninja'd me

 

[Twellas]

You haven't really debunked anything. There isn't anything really objectively wrong here a much as you wish to say it, as his RPL is kind of based around subjectivity, since there really aren't objective statements or things in the narrative pointing to RPL outright. Where as there other things you can say are more likely to have happened. Hell if you wanted to you could chalk it up to PIS if you want.

bro come the **** on did you even read my posts? I will assume you didn't, because you wouldn't be saying this shit if you did, I absolutely debunked the idea of Raiden going RM to the point where nobody even brought it up again, there's NO valid argument for Raiden going Ripper Mode, full stop

I've already given points for him being in RM. He was bloodlusted, his eye stayed glowing in the beginning cutscene of the fight, the fact he references early lines to his bloodlust and his persona, as well as the fact his voice starts sounding more and more like Jack throughout that.

And I 100% debunked that horseshit argument in my first post, which you clearly didn't even bother reading

 

[ShivaShakti]

bro come the **** on did you even read my posts? I will assume you didn't, because you wouldn't be saying this shit if you did, I absolutely debunked the idea of Raiden going RM to the point where nobody even brought it up again, there's NO valid argument for Raiden going Ripper Mode, full stop

And I 100% debunked that horseshit argument in my first post, which you clearly didn't even bother reading

Calm down. No need for the aggression.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Calm down. No need for the aggression.

Its infuriating to have the opposition seemingly not read your arguments

 

[ShivaShakti]

Its infuriating to have the opposition seemingly not read your arguments

I have read them, and I do not agree with them. And still not an excuse to get aggressive. Lets keep this civil.

 

[Twellas]

Calm down. No need for the aggression.

Seriosuly, how am I supposed to answer to someone who first tags me and then doesn't even read my posts?

 

[ShivaShakti]

Seriosuly, how am I supposed to answer to someone who first tags me and then doesn't even read my posts?

See above.

 

[Chariot190]

Calm down. No need for the aggression.

Not really, when one is forced to repeat themselves a dozen times against the same arguments that are demonstrably false, at that point getting mad is a bit warranted.


You're going to have to prove Raiden didn't go from being weaker then Armstrong to being able to harm him with his bare hands (And mind you, I can pull up several scripted canonical sequences right now, **** even in gameplay Raiden's normal strikes do vastly more damage then prior, and Armstrong even says Raiden's physical blows hurt now).

RM is conjecture at best and even best case scenario explicitly isn't the whole fight.

Muramasa is a nonfactor, Raiden fought and harmed him without it multiple times, even losing the sword at points in the fight.

Nanos get weaker, fake news.


You need to find a argument that isn't any of those three.

 

[Twellas]

I have read them, and I do not agree with them. And still not an excuse to get aggressive. Lets keep this civil.

if you did read my first post you would know that that red glow is NOTHING like the one that happens when he goes RM, you would know that we have evidence of that same glow happening to Raiden without him going Ripper Mode, and you would also know that the final cutscene shows Raiden 1) clearly in base 2) in a mood that is completely, wholly, 100% antithetical to how he would behave if he were in Ripper Mode

 

[SpookyShadow]

I'll just note one little thing I've spotted earlier. Related to gameplay damage, but story supports it.

In the first phase, Jack performs hundreds of punches on Armstrong, powered with electricity. Jack has explicitly stated earlier - he's going to kill Armstrong, there's no holding back. He only took around 5% of his HP on the first rush. Armstrong just goes "eh" after them, so it's obviously supported by the story, because in this phase, Raiden does as much damage to Armstrong as a mosquito could. Worth to note Armstrong's famous line "You can't hurt me, Jack".

During the second phase, Jack attacks Armstrong in a scripted QTE with a physical attack, a normal right punch, he takes away 11% of his HP. Afterwards, Armstrong says "Hahaha, that one hurt!" or "This is the greatest fight of my life!"

Like I said, just a little note.

 

[Twellas]

let's recap

• Raiden going Ripper Mode: 100% contraddicted by every scripted scene we are shown
• Armstrong's nanos got weaker: Literally made up with 0 basis in any form of canon whatsoever
• He can only harm him due to the Murasama: False, Armstrong has shown that he can no-sell the Murasama while being casual, let alone when he's bloodlusted, and Raiden could damage him without using the Murasama multiple times.
• Raiden was being upgraded by Dok: Again, made up, NOTHING to back it up
• Raiden managed to beat Armstrong due to some skill upgrade: How the does a skill upgrade let you KO someone who minutes prior could no-sell you?
• The Monsoon copy isn't up to the og in terms of stats: We are straight up told by Dok that it is

 

[Chariot190]

I'll just note one little thing I've spotted earlier. Related to gameplay damage, but story supports it.

In the first phase, Jack does hundreds of punches on Armstrong, powered with electricity. Jack has explicitly stated earlier - he's going to kill Armstrong, there's no holding back. He only took around 5% of his HP on the first rush. Armstrong just goes "eh" after them, so it's obviously supported by the story, because in this phase, Jack does as much damage to Armstrong as a mosquito could. Worth to note Armstrong's famous line "You can't hurt me Jack".

During the second phase, Jack attacks Armstrong in a scripted QTE with a physical attack, a normal right punch, he takes away 11% of his HP. Afterwards, Armstrong says "Hahaha, that one hurt!" or "This is the greatest fight of my life!"

Like I said, just a little note.

Even beyond that, we have the EXACT same moves from Raiden doing 0.1% to even 0% in the first phase yet in the second phase they do like 3-4% per blow.

Also Armstrong in the first phase "You can't hurt me Jack" Raiden punches him in the face as hard as he can "Heh, what did I just say?".

Cue second phase where Armstrong gets kicked in the ribs and has an aneurysm or actively gets mad at being hurt.

 

[Chariot190]

let's recap

• Raiden going Ripper Mode: 100% contraddicted by every scripted scene we are shown
• Armstrong's nanos got weaker: Literally made up with 0 basis in any form of canon whatsoever
• He can only harm him due to the Murasama: False, Armstrong has shown that he can no-sell the Murasama while being casual, let alone when he's bloodlusted
• Raiden was being upgraded by Dok: Again, made up, NOTHING to back it up
• Raiden managed to beat Armstrong due to some skill upgrade: How the does a skill upgrade let you KO someone who minutes prior could no-sell you?

Don't forget that Raiden is shown numerous times harming Armstrong canonically WITHOUT Muramasa, with Armstrong even saying those blows hurt him, the canonical physical blows done without the blade anywhere in sight.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Yeah, also worth to note, there's an entire phase where Raiden fights without Murasama, because Armstrong knocks it away from his hand. There's a CQC only fight, but you know, game mechanics and shit, don't mention it

Ninja'd, didn't notice Chariot's comment

 

[Twellas]

Don't forget that Raiden is shown numerous times harming Armstrong canonically WITHOUT Muramasa, with Armstrong even saying those blows hurt him, the canonical physical blows done without the blade anywhere in sight.

yeah I edited the comment to add this fact

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, also worth to note, there's an entire phase where Raiden fights without Murasama, because Armstrong knocks it away from his hand. There's a CQC only fight, but you know, game mechanics and shit, don't mention it

Yeah let's just ignore the fact that the devs made a whole H2H system JUST for this fight, let's just ignore that, they CLEARLY didn't want to show that Raiden could harm Armstrong with his bare hands

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, also worth to note, there's an entire phase where Raiden fights without Murasama, because Armstrong knocks it away from his hand. There's a CQC only fight, but you know, game mechanics and shit, don't mention it

Ninja'd, didn't notice Chariot's comment

Hell gameplay aside, scripted cutscenes and QTE's where Raiden floors the dude with his bare fists or even legs would be enough in litterally any other situation.
Like, these are 100% canonical scenes and the fight is filled with them. What happened to cutscenes being the most reliable source?

 

[AKM sama]

I got called to give an opinion. First of all, love that pfp @Twellas. I love his character development and the movie in general. I might make Shouko my pfp next.

After gleaning through the thread however, I am gonna have to side with the OP as I find their arguments much more compelling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I got called to give an opinion. First of all, love that pfp @Twellas. I love his character development and the movie in general. I might make Shouko my pfp next.

After gleaning through the thread however, I am gonna have to side with the OP as I find their arguments much more compelling.

I do agree with RPL being changed to AD, I just don't agree with the reasoning, that is my take on this

 

[SpookyShadow]

The RPL being changed to AD makes no sense. I'll repeat myself for the third time, the AD page states that Physical AD should be listed on profiles as RPL.

 

[Chariot190]

After gleaning through the thread however, I am gonna have to side with the OP as I find their arguments much more compelling.

What arguments? Literally the only arguments given this far are blatantly false, misinformation or based on complete conjecture that isnt supported by anything in game and even disproven by it.

There is not a single argument given that holds any weight, the 3 arguments are Armstrong's nanomachines got weaker (False, based on a fake interview), that Raiden could only hurt Armstrong with Muramasa (False, Armstrong is harmed by Raiden several times in canonical scripted events, even saying that Raiden managed to hurt him after being punched in the face or exploding in anger after getting kicked in the ribs) or he was in RM (False, not shown or implied or stated anywhere at all, in the cutscenes we do see, he's in base).

There is no real argument here as every point given this far is blatantly false or conjecture at best, meanwhile I can link a dozen examples of Armstrong getting put on his ass and being hurt while previously Raiden couldn't harm him at all with Armstrong even clarifying that Jack can't hurt him. (In fact, a few examples have already been linked).

So I ask, what arguments do you agree with in particular? Because depending on which, said arguments can very likely be proven demonstrably false at best.

 

[Armorchompy]

I got called to give an opinion. First of all, love that pfp @Twellas. I love his character development and the movie in general. I might make Shouko my pfp next.

Actually, I was wondering, what character is that?

 

[AKM sama]

What arguments? Literally the only arguments given this far are blatantly false, misinformation or based on complete conjecture that isnt supported by anything in game and even disproven by it.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the other side has no valid arguments. You think you are right and that's fine. But others don't have to think that. Clearly, if there are so many unbiased people agreeing with the other side, you must actually think that they might have a point even if you don't agree with it, rather than dismissing it like it doesn't exist.

Actually, I was wondering, what character is that?

Derailing but the character is Shouya Ishida from A Silent Voice / Koe no Katachi.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Yes, their arguments are valid as much as ours, but to stay valid they need to respond to our points first, with good counter-arguments. Every single argument of theirs has been addressed, and no new arguments were brought up, just restating the same ones all over again.

 

[Chariot190]

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the other side has no valid arguments.

You're right, this isn't about agreeing or disagreeing though, it's the fact that the main 3 arguments are outright wrong. How hard is it to grasp that one argument is LITERALLY based on a fake interview (and gas since been removed from the profile due to it being made up, this was months ago mind you), one argument is completely irrelevant because he floored Armstrong without the sword using his bare hands (I can link you multiple examples, all if which canonically happened) and one argument is that he entered a mode he never actually entered? (Lacks the RM aura, Aja the indicator he's in RM, used in every single instance he goes RN, even if only for a brief second, as shown with Blade and Sunny, linked earlier). This isn't subjective. All three arguments have zero relevancy either due to being literally made up, not being true or based on complete conjecture that's contradicted by the cutscenes.

You think you are right and that's fine. But others don't have to think that.

Others don't need to think that, sure, but when all the arguments given are quite literally false, it doesn't really matter what they think if their reasoning is demonstrably provably false. Like I could see this being a issue if there was weight or subjectivity to a few of the points, but as said, some are literally made up.

Clearly, if there are so many unbiased people agreeing with the other side, you must actually think that they might have a point even if you don't agree with it, rather than dismissing it like it doesn't exist.

Again, a thousand people could agree with it, if the opposing arguments are literally wrong and made up (nanos getting weaker), Raiden only being able to hurt him with the sword (several examples have been linked in this very thread where Raiden straight up lacks the sword yet punches him hard enough to hurt him) or he was in RM (game disagrees, never stated, shown or implied, the final cutscene shows him in base mode even while holding his heart in his hands).
Like actually be real here AKM, if a thousand people said the sky was red, it wouldn't matter what they say or how many agree, they'd still be wrong.

So I ask again, what argument do you actually agree with? Because mind you one is quite literally made up and one is demonstrably false. Only RM holds any merit and it's at best a maybe.

 

[Armorchompy]

I would like to give a reminder that Armstrong's stamina isn't Infinite, while there's no expressed statement of his nanomachines getting weaker our default assumption shouldn't be that they can last forever and ever.

 

[Twellas]

let's recap

• Raiden going Ripper Mode: 100% contraddicted by every scripted scene we are shown
• Armstrong's nanos got weaker: Literally made up with 0 basis in any form of canon whatsoever
• He can only harm him due to the Murasama: False, Armstrong has shown that he can no-sell the Murasama while being casual, let alone when he's bloodlusted, and Raiden could damage him without using the Murasama multiple times.
• Raiden was being upgraded by Dok: Again, made up, NOTHING to back it up
• Raiden managed to beat Armstrong due to some skill upgrade: How the does a skill upgrade let you KO someone who minutes prior could no-sell you?
• The Monsoon copy isn't up to the og in terms of stats: We are straight up told by Dok that it is

Tell me if I'm missing some arguments by the opposition, because if I'm not, all of the above arguments are demonstrably, objectively false

 

[Chariot190]

I would like to give a reminder that Armstrong's stamina isn't Infinite, while there's no expressed statement of his nanomachines getting weaker our default assumption shouldn't be that they can last forever and ever.

Fight lasted a few minutes, and nanomachines can make someone last for what, a full 24 hours on no sleep, food, drink and more while at peak condition? Even the first generation nanomachines did that. Snake used them on Shadow Moses.

Also this is the dude who held a conversation with his heart torn out of his chest.

 

[Twellas]

I would like to give a reminder that Armstrong's stamina isn't Infinite, while there's no expressed statement of his nanomachines getting weaker our default assumption shouldn't be that they can last forever and ever.

stamina=/=nanomachine duration, by the end of the figth Armstrong is clearly winded but his nanomachines 100% work

 

[Twellas]

Also this is the dude who held a conversation with his heart torn out of his chest.

also yeah, this

 

[Chariot190]

stamina=/=nanomachine duration, by the end of the figth Armstrong is clearly winded but his nanomachines 100% work

And mind you, he's only winded because he's getting his ass kicked.

Armstrong is beyond peak condition, even without nanos, dude's (was) ******* navy seal, had military training, could've even gone pro football.

 

[Twellas]

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the other side has no valid arguments. You think you are right and that's fine. But others don't have to think that. Clearly, if there are so many unbiased people agreeing with the other side, you must actually think that they might have a point even if you don't agree with it, rather than dismissing it like it doesn't exist.

the problem here is that the opposition is using points that either don't have any basis in canon whatsoever (something we supporters are accused of, btw) or are demonstrably false, case and point, "Raiden went Ripper Mode", something that is contraddicted by every scripted section of the bossfight, and whose only sopporting "evidence" has literally nothing to do with Ripper Mode (as I've demonstrated in the first post). i can't stress enough how most of this stuff is not up for interpretation, it's not up for interpretation that Raiden is in base in the final cutscene of the game, it's not up for interpretation that the red light in his eye has no real link to Ripper Mode, it's all objective stuff you can look up for yourself.
Same for the arguments about Armstrong's nanon weakening or stuff like that, it's not up for debate that it's not even remotely hinted at in the game, just like it's not up for debate that Raiden punches him to the ground without needing the murasama

 

[DMUA]

if you call this "slightly nudge" I have no idea what isn't nudging

... You know, I just realized something pretty funky, now that you link that.

Notice that the areas he's punching aren't actually visibly covered by nanomachines, they're staying in his arms while Raiden is hitting his side and his head respectively.

So it's not that Raiden is dramatically stronger, Armstrong just doesn't have his defenses up, for some reason.

Murasama wasn't immediately shattered between Armstrong's fingers and I remember at least one statement of it being noted as an extremely well crafted weapon, immensely enhanced by it's High Frequency Augmentation. Raiden getting a better weapon and thus being able to deal more damage isn't Reactive Power Level.

except Raiden straight up stands up to him, counters him pushing his punch through and even makes him back off with a shove, this is almost a textbook definition of "overpowering someone", and this is not even taking into account what happens right after, Raiden straight up kicking him to the ground

That kick was towards the legs to knock him off balance, not Armstrong just being flattened onto the ground. Yet another skill thing. Everything else doesn't really counter the fact he has both hands to work with, when he wasn't able to get into a situation like that before.

Raiden isn't referring to the throw, he's talking about all of Sam's punches and kicks, which he starts throwing after losing his sword

Then why link a statement where Raiden directly mentions grappling as apart of their technique? Heck, considering how meta Metal Gear can get sometimes I would be surprised if this wasn't an indirect allusion to the fact that as a player, one would be able to adapt to certain attacks and be able to deal with them as they play, which is 100% skill.

can you elaborate on this? Because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Are you refering to the Left hands Raiden has to collect to get the necessary ID data to open doors? Because all those do is give Dok info on the killed Cyborg and, "Speed. It can read over a gigabit of data in a second. And capacity. A two-inch-square cube of lithium niobate crystal can store four terabytes of data. It is also highly resilient against data loss caused by damage to any part of its media. This is because the bit information is not localized, but used as an optical diffractor across the medium. For battle data, there is no better type of storage.", so quite literally, that stuff has NOTHING to do with Raiden's physical stats, or even Raiden in general, it's all for Dok's sake.

"Ehem... I am authorized to offer you upgrades and services in exchange for it"

Direct statement of upgrades in reward for said combat data.