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Why are we scaling physicals at all, anyway? Literally everyone uses durability negation weapons.
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Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)
- Thread starter ShivaShakti
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Because we see from the fight with Sam that big AP difference=you get ragdolled by the opponent’s swordstrokes, also this gap is portrayed in-game by showing the opponent not taking damage. Also Raiden kicks quite frequently, as seen against Monsoon who gets kicked in the chest multiple times
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I agree with Twellas on this
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if you call this "slightly nudge" I have no idea what isn't nudging; I also need to point out that the QTEs are mandatory, they are not some optional thing that CAN happen, it WILL always happen and Raiden will always punch Armstrong to the ground. Also no, the whole point of the fight isn't "that Raiden can't actually do anything to Armstrong without the Murasama", nobody ever says or even implies anything along the lines of "you need a better sword to hurt him", the Murasama just sort of appears out of the blue, its importance never actually explicitated, and we know for a fact that Armstrong no-sells the Murasama; such a big fuzz is made of it mainly because the phrase "I said my sword was a tool of justice. Not used in anger. Not used for vengeance. But now, now i'm not so sure. Besides. This isn't my sword" related to it is basically the cathartic moment in which the coping mechanism of the "tool of justice" is definitively destroyed
except Raiden straight up stands up to him, counters him pushing his punch through and even makes him back off with a shove, this is almost a textbook definition of "overpowering someone", and this is not even taking into account what happens right after, Raiden straight up kicking him to the ground
it's not even an assumption that Armstrong went serious mode, he's visibly angry after this exchange, and giving how he can control the nanomachine with his will, it's not at all a stretch to say that he would be nerfing his own dura while suppressed, hell, weakening his own nanomachines is the only way he can suppress himself at all
Raiden isn't refering to the throw, he's talking about all of Sam's punches and kicks, which he starts throwing after losing his sword
can you elaborate on this? Because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Are you refering to the Left hands Raiden has to collect to get the necessary ID data to open doors? Because all those do is give Dok info on the killed Cyborg and, "Speed. It can read over a gigabit of data in a second. And capacity. A two-inch-square cube of lithium niobate crystal can store four terabytes of data. It is also highly resilient against data loss caused by damage to any part of its media. This is because the bit information is not localized, but used as an optical diffractor across the medium. For battle data, there is no better type of storage.", so quite literally, that stuff has NOTHING to do with Raiden's physical stats, or even Raiden in general, it's all for Dok's sake.
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Right, that's what I meant. His growth is, at best, Accelerated Development rather than Reactive Power Level
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I'll quote the Accelerated Development page
So yeah, this is RPL
By definition, this is Reactive Power Level. The page itself states
So yeah, this is RPL
Arcker123
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Armstrong outright says "**** this war, i just want you dead" at some points in the final fight
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I still think everything points toward this being Armstrong being weakened over time, a willpower boost, or an increase in skill rather than power
Arcker123
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unsourced headcanon, this was removed from Armstrong's weakness page for being unsourced
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It's not even implied anywhere though. Skill increase wouldn't allow Jack to knock down Armstrong and make him say "Hahaha, that one hurt!" and "This is the greatest fight of my life!" few minutes after punching him with all his might hundreds of times (he even used electricity to amp his attacks during that QTE) and it just making him go "eh".
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except literally nothing does, because Armstrong being weakened is quite literally made up, a willpower boost has even less backing than the AD/RPL and Skill doesn't let you out-punch someone
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before Raiden even takes the Murasama he straight up screams "die you piece of shit" while punching him.
which reminds me, at the beginning of the fight, Dok states that even a single punch from Armstrong could kill Raiden, and then this happens. You be the judge; is this also just a skill boost?
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and before any of you jump on the "you appear to have the speed advantage", when Dok talks about speed, he's refering to running speed/agility, which is proven by the fact that according to Dok, Bladewolf is faster than Raiden despite clearly being at most equal in terms of fighting speed.
If Raiden has a speed advantage it's minimal at best, given how Armstrong completely blitzes him at the beginning
If Raiden has a speed advantage it's minimal at best, given how Armstrong completely blitzes him at the beginning
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I think it's an instance of Dok speculating, especially considering that he says "Even a single punch could kill you", despite Raiden potentially taking multiple hits beforehand, and immediately afterwards acknowledged that he has no idea how Armstrong works or what he is.
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1) Armstrong was suppressed before, actively trying to recruit Raiden, it's likely that Dok was refering to a full power Armstrong. Dok is also the single most knowledgeable member when it comes to Raiden's body, even more than Raiden himself, so he knows what he's talking about, and he'd have no reason to lie
2) the argument of "Dok isn't knowledgeable on Armstrong" is complete bullshit, because ALL we know about him comes from Dok himself, who was the one to accurately localize his weakness. This idea comes from Dok stating tha nanomachines are not his area of expertise, but this doesn't mean he isn't knowledgeable, because he very clearly is, most likely more than anyone in the verse at that point, it's just that, being a genius and having mastery over entire fields of science, Dok's concept of "expertise" is probably something along the lines of "I know literally everything there is to know", which is simply not possible due to Armstrong's tech being brand new and considered impossible before
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Fair point on skill not really doing anything to withstand those punches.
That is valid, however the statement that Armstrong might be able to kill Raiden in one hit was made before he knew that Armstrong was using nanomachines. As far as he knew Armstrong was a completely unknown, monstrously-strong entity.
Not only is it valid to say Dok isn't super knowledgeable about Armstrong, it is very specifically very valid when talking about his capacity to oneshot Raiden, as aknowledged by Dok himself.
That is valid, however the statement that Armstrong might be able to kill Raiden in one hit was made before he knew that Armstrong was using nanomachines. As far as he knew Armstrong was a completely unknown, monstrously-strong entity.
Not only is it valid to say Dok isn't super knowledgeable about Armstrong, it is very specifically very valid when talking about his capacity to oneshot Raiden, as aknowledged by Dok himself.
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I'm honestly baffled at how this is even ongoing still.
We have a explicit clear cut example of Raiden going from being drastically weaker then a casual at best Armstrong, to where Armstrong can literally stand there in both cutscenes, QTE's and gameplay and tank Raiden's physical blows as if they were nothing, even laughing them off, only for by the end Raiden to be physically overpowering him, causing Armstrong massive damage, making him reel back in pain, pushing Armstrong beyond his limit and still failing to overtake Raiden and even Armstrong going as far to exclaim Raiden is now physically hurting him, how this is the greatest fight of his life and even yelling in anger and getting pissed as all **** at Raiden smashing him in the ribs. And this is reflected in cutscenes, scripted QTE's and even the gameplay itself (Raiden's physical strikes do much more damage to Armstrong in the second phase compared to how much they did in the first phase).
Quite literally all three ways for it to be conveyed in, is conveyed.
The argument of Muramusa is completely pointless as all these examples happened without the sword and was done by Raiden's physical strength without it, Armstrong's nano's don't get weaker over time (to the point Raiden has to actively take that into account when landing the finishing blow) and serious or effort? Raiden was blatantly going all out prior, he's even astounded that Armstrong is somehow not ******* dead but also barely taking any damage despite his efforts.
Like come on, every argument here is basically relying on something that isn't true (nano's get weaker), the sword is what allowed Raiden to start harming him (complete bullshit and demonstrably false by the multitude of examples throughout the second half where Raiden harms him in scripted sequences and even elicits a response from Armstrong as to how he's being hurt all without the sword being a factor at all or even being used) or he used RM (lacks the universal signifier that he was in RM).
Like it or not Raiden went from being weaker to being stronger, we see this play out on screen in both gameplay, cutscenes, QTE and even the character reactions.
We have a explicit clear cut example of Raiden going from being drastically weaker then a casual at best Armstrong, to where Armstrong can literally stand there in both cutscenes, QTE's and gameplay and tank Raiden's physical blows as if they were nothing, even laughing them off, only for by the end Raiden to be physically overpowering him, causing Armstrong massive damage, making him reel back in pain, pushing Armstrong beyond his limit and still failing to overtake Raiden and even Armstrong going as far to exclaim Raiden is now physically hurting him, how this is the greatest fight of his life and even yelling in anger and getting pissed as all **** at Raiden smashing him in the ribs. And this is reflected in cutscenes, scripted QTE's and even the gameplay itself (Raiden's physical strikes do much more damage to Armstrong in the second phase compared to how much they did in the first phase).
Quite literally all three ways for it to be conveyed in, is conveyed.
The argument of Muramusa is completely pointless as all these examples happened without the sword and was done by Raiden's physical strength without it, Armstrong's nano's don't get weaker over time (to the point Raiden has to actively take that into account when landing the finishing blow) and serious or effort? Raiden was blatantly going all out prior, he's even astounded that Armstrong is somehow not ******* dead but also barely taking any damage despite his efforts.
Like come on, every argument here is basically relying on something that isn't true (nano's get weaker), the sword is what allowed Raiden to start harming him (complete bullshit and demonstrably false by the multitude of examples throughout the second half where Raiden harms him in scripted sequences and even elicits a response from Armstrong as to how he's being hurt all without the sword being a factor at all or even being used) or he used RM (lacks the universal signifier that he was in RM).
Like it or not Raiden went from being weaker to being stronger, we see this play out on screen in both gameplay, cutscenes, QTE and even the character reactions.
This isn't even overly relevant, we could cut Dok out of the picture entirely, it's still made perfectly clear that Raiden couldn't do jack shit to Armstrong even while going all out and tossing everything he had at Armstrong, even actively trying to kill him, yet Raiden ends up actively harming him, overpowering him and forcing Armstrong beyond his limit and failing (as in Armstrong is failing) all within short order, numerous times mind you, it isn't only one example.
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and why would Dok knowing that Armstrong uses nanomachines suddenly change his estimation about his strength? And it's not like he had nothing to go off of, he saw what a suppressed Armstrong was doing to Raiden and went "mhh, if he can bully you like this while pulling his punches, he can probably kill you in one punch", and given how he has perfect knowledge in regards to Raiden's physical stats, there's no reason to think he's wrong
Dok never says that he's not qualified to speak about Armstrong's strength, he simply doesn't know how he got his strength, which doesn't influence his acknowledgement of "jeez this guy can probably **** you up even worse" after SEEING Armstrong **** Raiden up
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THEY SAY ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BUT YOU LOOK AT ME AND YOU LOOK AT ARMSTRONG, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE, YOU SEE, NORMALLY WHEN YOU GO AGAINST A MAIN CHARACTER, YOU HAVE A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT I'M A GENETIC FREAK, AND I'M NOT NORMAL, SO YOU GOT A 25% AT BEST AT BEATING ME, AND THEN YOU ADD THE REACTIVE POWER LEVEL INTO THE MIX AND YOUR CHANCES AT WINNING DRASTICALLY GO DOWN
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The arguments for AP AD aren't compelling to me, so I have to disagree.
I am fine with the RPL being changed to AD, however.
I am fine with the RPL being changed to AD, however.
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I don't believe Raiden's physical strength increases the way it's currently claimed to do.
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There were plenty of posts proving that it does though. And what's the type of AD you want him to have then, if not AP AD (which the page itself state to be the same thing as RPL)? There's only Skill, Training, Passive and Leveling left, and none of these fit that ability.
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I don't believe they did prove that, I just said I don't find their arguments compelling for it.
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I mean, you're open to disagree if you state your reasoning, their point states if nobody has good arguments against it.
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- Thread starter
- #107
This thread is getting derailed I see.
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Where did the derail start to you?
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- Thread starter
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The random wrestling meme
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bruh that was a small aside
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I mean if people did talk about it, sure, but nobody addressed it lol. No offense but right now you're derailing that more, so no need to talk about it.
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I see a lot of people disagreeing, and nobody bringing valid arguments forth, at this point even the opposition agrees that Raiden did indeed grow in physical stats, there are multiple instances of this happening and nobody managed to give any compelling argument against it, so what's the hold up?
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Many people have brought up points, and no, not everyone is agree'ing with Raiden with Raiden growing in physical stats in the way you say.
DMUA doesn't think it's AD has even stated his point that Doktor is just upgrading him throughout the game, Abstractions doesn't think it's AP AD, Creature has stated he believes the increase is more so a willpower or skill thing not an AP Thing, Grath doesn't feel confident in keeping RPL around anymore since other explanations exist, other people agree with the Original post etc.
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You don't believe that Raiden went from getting his ass kicked to making Armstrong eat dirt? I could go and link a dozen examples if need be.
This isn't even a matter of believing something, it is quite literally what happens. And every single argument saying otherwise is either fake news (nanos weaken), irrelevant (the sword wasn't used in any of the blatant examples given nor does it actually effect Raiden's physicals) or isn't implied anywhere (RM).
Like what more do you want? It's undeniable he went from being weaker to stronger, the ONLY thing up to debate is the why, not if he did, saying he didn't go from being weaker to flooring Armstrong is beyond ignorant.
Well he's wrong given Raiden didn't exactly **** off in the middle of a cutscene, reminder the only thing separating the two fights is a cutscene. Dok canonically did nothing to help Raiden in this fight.
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Yeah, and most of their points have been answered previously, so they need to reply to make their arguments valid. Is that not how it works?
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No real narrative basis for RPL and you can point to other things to explain his boost in power, and Raiden kind of really has no real reason to not use RM considering he's meant to be going all out and is pretty bloodlusted at this point. The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling.
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- #117
They are still free to disagree or think your arguments are invalid.
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And I've proven that that's objectively false
gives absolutely no arguments
and he's, again, objectively wrong, as he himself stated "Fair point on skill not really doing anything to withstand those punches"
No, Grath said that if more evidence came up he would agree, and it's what happened, also, since I've proven that the so called "other explainations" are either completely made up or fallacious, it doesn't really apply
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they can think what they want, but if they don't give actual valid arguments as counters, it doesn't matter
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There's really no need for narrative basis. Literally everything in the gameplay, scripted QTE's, their lines, absolutely EVERYTHING points to RPL. About Ripper Mode, this was already debunked, he would need to have red aura (he even had it in comedy scenes, like when he tried to play with Wolf) and RM active during the entire battle, like during Monsoon's fight.
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