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Why are we scaling physicals at all, anyway? Literally everyone uses durability negation weapons.
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Because we see from the fight with Sam that big AP difference=you get ragdolled by the opponent’s swordstrokes, also this gap is portrayed in-game by showing the opponent not taking damage. Also Raiden kicks quite frequently, as seen against Monsoon who gets kicked in the chest multiple timesWhy are we scaling physicals at all, anyway? Literally everyone uses durability negation weapons.
The whole point of the fight is that Raiden can't actually do anything to Armstrong without the Murasama. To assume he dramatically increases in power just because he can slightly nudge him with a punch (or take off a large chunk of his HP with QTEs, as I've also heard it justified) is a bit much.
if you call this "slightly nudge" I have no idea what isn't nudging; I also need to point out that the QTEs are mandatory, they are not some optional thing that CAN happen, it WILL always happen and Raiden will always punch Armstrong to the ground. Also no, the whole point of the fight isn't "that Raiden can't actually do anything to Armstrong without the Murasama", nobody ever says or even implies anything along the lines of "you need a better sword to hurt him", the Murasama just sort of appears out of the blue, its importance never actually explicitated, and we know for a fact that Armstrong no-sells the Murasama; such a big fuzz is made of it mainly because the phrase "I said my sword was a tool of justice. Not used in anger. Not used for vengeance. But now, now i'm not so sure. Besides. This isn't my sword" related to it is basically the cathartic moment in which the coping mechanism of the "tool of justice" is definitively destroyed
except Raiden straight up stands up to him, counters him pushing his punch through and even makes him back off with a shove, this is almost a textbook definition of "overpowering someone", and this is not even taking into account what happens right after, Raiden straight up kicking him to the groundThis is the only time where he actually manages to use both arms to block a punch from Armstrong. To say he's straight up overpowering him is giving it a little bit too much credit, he just got himself in a position where he has more leverage
it's not even an assumption that Armstrong went serious mode, he's visibly angry after this exchange, and giving how he can control the nanomachine with his will, it's not at all a stretch to say that he would be nerfing his own dura while suppressed, hell, weakening his own nanomachines is the only way he can suppress himself at allThe fact he proceeds to get no sold afterwards anyways lines up with this a bit better than the assumption Raiden can jump in power in the middle of a fight and Armstrong went serious mode.
Raiden isn't refering to the throw, he's talking about all of Sam's punches and kicks, which he starts throwing after losing his swordThis is definitely a skill thing, otherwise we'd actually see evidence of him being able to brute force through Sam's punches, and... How exactly does one brute force through a throw like the ones Sam does? Like, one is just him shifting Raiden's momentum to make him flip over, more force would just have more being turned against Raiden.
can you elaborate on this? Because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Are you refering to the Left hands Raiden has to collect to get the necessary ID data to open doors? Because all those do is give Dok info on the killed Cyborg and, "Speed. It can read over a gigabit of data in a second. And capacity. A two-inch-square cube of lithium niobate crystal can store four terabytes of data. It is also highly resilient against data loss caused by damage to any part of its media. This is because the bit information is not localized, but used as an optical diffractor across the medium. For battle data, there is no better type of storage.", so quite literally, that stuff has NOTHING to do with Raiden's physical stats, or even Raiden in general, it's all for Dok's sake.There's not a specific post but, just, in general, while I can agree that Raiden does in fact get stronger through the game, that's not really accelerated development, it's just him being upgraded by Doktor. That's outright stated to be why he has to cut off the left arm of enemies, and all, so he can get more resources. Of course, then again Raiden can upgrade himself when he's isolated and wouldn't have access to Doktor, but, pretty sure that's ultimately just Game Mechanics.
Right, that's what I meant. His growth is, at best, Accelerated Development rather than Reactive Power LevelNo one denies he gets stronger. Just personally think the way his RPL currently works is a bit much
By definition, this is Reactive Power Level. The page itself states
- Battle: The characters development is faster than normal while battling. Different from the "Training"-Type Accelerated Development this type has a specific focus on increase in battle, which is larger than the increase gained through normal training. List Reactive Power Level instead of this Type of Accelerated Growth.
Reactive Power Level is the ability to rapidly increase one's overall strength or other physical capabilities by engaging in combat, becoming more and more capable over the course of a fight. This ability can grant a significant edge in battle, as users can potentially strengthen themselves to match or exceed opponents that were previously on par with or more powerful than them.
Armstrong outright says "**** this war, i just want you dead" at some points in the final fightit's not even an assumption that Armstrong went serious mode, he's visibly angry after this exchange, and giving how he can control the nanomachine with his will, it's not at all a stretch to say that he would be nerfing his own dura while suppressed, hell, weakening his own nanomachines is the only way he can suppress himself at all
unsourced headcanon, this was removed from Armstrong's weakness page for being unsourcedArmstrong being weakened over time
except literally nothing does, because Armstrong being weakened is quite literally made up, a willpower boost has even less backing than the AD/RPL and Skill doesn't let you out-punch someoneI still think everything points toward this being Armstrong being weakened over time, a willpower boost, or an increase in skill rather than power
before Raiden even takes the Murasama he straight up screams "die you piece of shit" while punching him.Armstrong outright says "**** this war, i just want you dead" at some points in the final fight
1) Armstrong was suppressed before, actively trying to recruit Raiden, it's likely that Dok was refering to a full power Armstrong. Dok is also the single most knowledgeable member when it comes to Raiden's body, even more than Raiden himself, so he knows what he's talking about, and he'd have no reason to lieI think it's an instance of Dok speculating, especially considering that he says "Even a single punch could kill you", despite Raiden potentially taking multiple hits beforehand, and immediately afterwards acknowledged that he has no idea how Armstrong works or what he is.
This isn't even overly relevant, we could cut Dok out of the picture entirely, it's still made perfectly clear that Raiden couldn't do jack shit to Armstrong even while going all out and tossing everything he had at Armstrong, even actively trying to kill him, yet Raiden ends up actively harming him, overpowering him and forcing Armstrong beyond his limit and failing (as in Armstrong is failing) all within short order, numerous times mind you, it isn't only one example.Snip
and why would Dok knowing that Armstrong uses nanomachines suddenly change his estimation about his strength? And it's not like he had nothing to go off of, he saw what a suppressed Armstrong was doing to Raiden and went "mhh, if he can bully you like this while pulling his punches, he can probably kill you in one punch", and given how he has perfect knowledge in regards to Raiden's physical stats, there's no reason to think he's wrongThat is valid, however the statement that Armstrong might be able to kill Raiden in one hit was made before he knew that Armstrong was using nanomachines. As far as he knew Armstrong was a completely unknown, monstrously-strong entity.
Dok never says that he's not qualified to speak about Armstrong's strength, he simply doesn't know how he got his strength, which doesn't influence his acknowledgement of "jeez this guy can probably **** you up even worse" after SEEING Armstrong **** Raiden upNot only is it valid to say Dok isn't super knowledgeable about Armstrong, it is very specifically very valid when talking about his capacity to oneshot Raiden, as aknowledged by Dok himself.
I don't believe Raiden's physical strength increases the way it's currently claimed to do.
I don't believe they did prove that, I just said I don't find their arguments compelling for it.There were plenty of posts proving that it does though. And what's the type of AD you want him to have then, if not AP AD (which the page itself state to be the same thing as RPL)? There's only Skill, Training, Passive and Leveling left, and none of these fit that ability.
The random wrestling memeWhere did the derail start to you?
bruh that was a small asideThe random wrestling meme
Many people have brought up points, and no, not everyone is agree'ing with Raiden with Raiden growing in physical stats in the way you say.I see a lot of people disagreeing, and nobody bringing valid arguments forth, at this point even the opposition agrees that Raiden did indeed grow in physical stats, there are multiple instances of this happening and nobody managed to give any compelling argument against it, so what's the hold up?
You don't believe that Raiden went from getting his ass kicked to making Armstrong eat dirt? I could go and link a dozen examples if need be.I don't believe they did prove that, I just said I don't find their arguments compelling for it.
Well he's wrong given Raiden didn't exactly **** off in the middle of a cutscene, reminder the only thing separating the two fights is a cutscene. Dok canonically did nothing to help Raiden in this fight.Doktor is just upgrading him throughout the game
Yeah, and most of their points have been answered previously, so they need to reply to make their arguments valid. Is that not how it works?Many people have brought up points, and no, not everyone is agree'ing with Raiden with Raiden growing in physical stats in the way you say.
DMUA doesn't think it's AD has even stated his point that Doktor is just upgrading him throughout the game, Abstractions doesn't think it's AP AD, Creature has stated he believes the increase is more so a willpower or skill thing not an AP Thing, Grath doesn't feel confident in keeping RPL around anymore since other explanations exist, other people agree with the Original post etc.
No real narrative basis for RPL and you can point to other things to explain his boost in power, and Raiden kind of really has no real reason to not use RM considering he's meant to be going all out and is pretty bloodlusted at this point. The arguments for him having RPL or massive AP boosts thus far aren't very compelling.You don't believe that Raiden went from getting his ass kicked to making Armstrong eat dirt? I could go and link a dozen examples if need be.
This isn't even a matter of believing something, it is quite literally what happens. And every single argument saying otherwise is either fake news (nanos weaken), irrelevant (the sword wasn't used in any of the blatant examples given nor does it actually effect Raiden's physicals) or isn't implied anywhere (RM).
Like what more do you want? It's undeniable he went from being weaker to stronger, the ONLY thing up to debate is the why, not if he did, saying he didn't go from being weaker to flooring Armstrong is beyond ignorant.
They are still free to disagree or think your arguments are invalid.Yeah, and most of their points have been answered previously, so they need to reply to make their arguments valid. Is that not how it works?
And I've proven that that's objectively falseDMUA doesn't think it's AD has even stated his point that Doktor is just upgrading him throughout the game
gives absolutely no argumentsAbstractions doesn't think it's AP AD
and he's, again, objectively wrong, as he himself stated "Fair point on skill not really doing anything to withstand those punches"Creature has stated he believes the increase is more so a willpower or skill thing not an AP Thing
No, Grath said that if more evidence came up he would agree, and it's what happened, also, since I've proven that the so called "other explainations" are either completely made up or fallacious, it doesn't really applyGrath doesn't feel confident in keeping RPL around anymore since other explanations exist
they can think what they want, but if they don't give actual valid arguments as counters, it doesn't matterThey are still free to disagree or think your arguments are invalid.
No real narrative basis for RPL and you can point to other things to explain his boost in power, and Raiden kind of really has no real reason to not use RM considering he's meant to be going all out and is pretty bloodlusted at this point.