Raiden's "Reactive Power Level" (Metal Gear Rising)

[DaReaperMan]

... You know, I just realized something pretty funky, now that you link that.

Notice that the areas he's punching aren't actually visibly covered by nanomachines, they're staying in his arms while Raiden is hitting his side and his head respectively.

So it's not that Raiden is dramatically stronger, Armstrong just doesn't have his defenses up, for some reason.

Actually that was limitations in graphics I believe

 

[DMUA]

Get me a statement of that from the devs in some capacity and I'd buy it

... Not that I'm really confident in believing that they couldn't render a little bit more black on a character model with PS3 technology but, hey, Video games have surprised me like that before.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Get me a statement of that from the devs in some capacity and I'd buy it

... Not that I'm really confident in believing that they couldn't render a little bit more black on a character model with PS3 technology but, hey, Video games have surprised me like that before.

I'd have to rewatch the Armstrong fight but I believe at least his entire upper body is covered in Nanomachines when he and Raiden have a head on head(literally) power struggle

 

[SpookyShadow]

Pretty sure he's not hardening when he's hit by Murasama or normal HF Blade too though? Isn't that graphical limit, lack of attention to detail?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Pretty sure he's not hardening when he's hit by Murasama or normal HF Blade too though? Isn't that graphical limit, lack of attention to detail?

Yeah, found the scene, Armstrong didn't flex his shirt off so you can't tell, he's probably just that much of a stone wall

 

[SpookyShadow]

I mean, in the part I sent the guy who plays literally hits him in the uncovered arm and it isn't nano'd.

 

[Twellas]

Notice that the areas he's punching aren't actually visibly covered by nanomachines, they're staying in his arms while Raiden is hitting his side and his head respectively.

So it's not that Raiden is dramatically stronger, Armstrong just doesn't have his defenses up, for some reason.

the game can't render the nanomachines in real time, never does, and since they are canonically automatic (the entire point of the fight revolvs around, and i quote, "he can't possibly be directing every individual nanomachine with his brain", also, you know, "THEY HARDEN IN RESPONSE TO PHYSICAL TRAUMA"), there is no "he doesn't have his defenses up", because the defenses put themselves up automatically. Also, here's Raiden kicking him in a nanomachines part of his chest and hurting him

Murasama wasn't immediately shattered between Armstrong's fingers and I remember at least one statement of it being noted as an extremely well crafted weapon, immensely enhanced by it's High Frequency Augmentation. Raiden getting a better weapon and thus being able to deal more damage isn't Reactive Power Level.

the Murasama can't do jackshit to Armstrong by itself, hell, the only way Sam managed to get around them was outspeeding them with the Iaido quickdraw, which is faster than Blade Mode. And again, Raiden punches him multiple times

That kick was towards the legs to knock him off balance, not Armstrong just being flattened onto the ground. Yet another skill thing.

no, kicking someone in the sheen is not a skill thing, neither is pushing back against his punch, neither is punching him in the throat, neither is kicking him in the stomach, or are you ignoring those parts?

Then why link a statement where Raiden directly mentions grappling as apart of their technique? Heck, considering how meta Metal Gear can get sometimes I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't an indirect allusion to the fact that as a player, one would be able to adapt to certain attacks and be able to deal with them as they play, which is 100% skill.

fair enough, makes some sense, doesn't debunk anything tho

"Ehem... I am authorized to offer you upgrades and services in exchange for it"

Direct statement of upgrades in reward for said combat data.

Blatantly refering to unlockable skills, which are a gameplay mechanic, because Dok has physically no way of upgrading Raiden's physical stats from afar and we have absolutely no indication that Dok upgrading him is going on behind the scenes. And don't even try to go with the "if he mentions them then it's not just a gameplay mechanic" because this is Metal Gear, the game where The Boss tells Naked to "trust his gaming senses" to detect mines.

 

[DarkGrath]

No, Grath said that if more evidence came up he would agree, and it's what happened, also, since I've proven that the so called "other explainations" are either completely made up or fallacious, it doesn't really apply

Please do not assume what my opinion on a matter will be before I even have a chance to look at the new evidence.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, there is the Raiden punching Armstrong a few hundred times thing where we see Armstrong's head and hands be covered in Nanomachines even though Raiden was punching him in the chest

 

[SpookyShadow]

Well, there is the Raiden punching Armstrong a few hundred times thing where we see Armstrong's head and hands be covered in Nanomachines even though Raiden was punching him in the chest

He was in a shirt, we couldn't see his chest. Armstrong can harden his entire body at once anyway, so no need to bring that up. (Though he DIDN'T harden his entire body when Jack has punched him with the two-fist combo at the end.)

 

[Twellas]

guys, guys... you are not all just IGNORING the whole point of Armstrong's nanomachines as your argument, right? Right?

 

[DaReaperMan]

guys, guys... you are not all just IGNORING the whole point of Armstrong's nanomachines as your argument, right? Right?

Yesssss.....

 

[DMUA]

Pretty sure he's not hardening when he's hit by Murasama or normal HF Blade too though? Isn't that graphical limit, lack of attention to detail?

considering the sound made when he's hit, it's probably just not visible under his shirt and pants as opposed to anything else.

the game can't render the nanomachines in real time, never does, and since they are canonically automatic

This is a QTE though, where such an attention to detail can be taken. Heck, they have the nanomachines on his arm in the scene where Raiden is punching Armstrong in the side, so, why can't they just move it accordingly if they want to represent that they are in fact completely automatic and react as such no matter what?

the Murasama can't do jackshit to Armstrong by itself, hell, the only way Sam managed to get around them was outspeeding them with the Iaido quickdraw, which is faster than Blade Mode. And again, Raiden punches him multiple times

In the hands of someone ultimately weaker than Raiden, it can't, but this doesn't prove that Raiden can jump dramatically in power in the middle of a fight.

no, kicking someone in the sheen is not a skill thing, neither is pushing back against his punch, neither is punching him in the throat, neither is kicking him in the stomach, or are you ignoring those parts?

The throat is a more vunerable part of the body by default, and kicking someone in the shin does tend to make it harder to stand, and is bound to be more effective than just punching them in the chest. And overall he's still not actually doing that much.

Blatantly refering to unlockable skills, which are a gameplay mechanic, because Dok has physically no way of upgrading Raiden's physical stats from afar and we have absolutely no indication that Dok upgrading him is going on behind the scenes. And don't even try to go with the "if he mentions them then it's not just a gameplay mechanic" because this is Metal Gear, the game where The Boss tells Naked to "trust his gaming senses" to detect mines

Upgrades include increasing the attack power of his blades and HP. Sure, unlockable skills are apart of it, but he can in fact increase his stats. And it's a much lesser assumption to say that "upgrades" can in fact refer to improving Raiden's performance in combat than to say Raiden has a secret, entirely unexplained or addressed capacity to dramatically increase his stats in the middle of combat.

 

[Twellas]

The entire point of Armstrong's nanomachines is that "THEY harden in response to physical trauma" and that if you shut down the "control center" that hardens the nanomachines for him he's done. It's extremely clear that Armstrong's body not reflecting the hardening is a gameplay mechanic/limitation.
Even if we just ignore the fact that they activate on their own, there are multiple instances of Armstrong seeing Raiden's punches before he throws them, so he would have all the time in the world to manually activate them and no reason not to do so.

 

[Chariot190]

Upgrades include increasing the attack power of his blades and HP. Sure, unlockable skills are apart of it, but he can in fact increase his stats. And it's a much lesser assumption to say that "upgrades" can in fact refer to improving Raiden's performance in combat than to say Raiden has a secret, entirely unexplained or addressed capacity to dramatically increase his stats in the middle of combat.

I hope you realize you're saying Dok upgraded Raiden from across the planet in the middle of a cutscene where we see absolutely everything that transpired from Point A to B with zero skips from the pov of both parties, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for Dok to have done anything (and mind you, even if Raiden is fully loaded out and upgraded, he still does next to nothing in Phase 1 including the scripted QTE's but in Phase 2 he's doing drastically more comparatively regardless of upgrades, with scripted damage infliction at various points even).

 

[Twellas]

This is a QTE though, where such an attention to detail can be taken. Heck, they have the nanomachines on his arm in the scene where Raiden is punching Armstrong in the side, so, why can't they just move it accordingly if they want to represent that they are in fact completely automatic and react as such no matter what?

don't know, still, no canonical reason for them to not be hardened, no in-character reason for him to not harden them, and regardless we have an instance of Raiden kicking a blackened part and hurting him, you do you, you have to be straight up malicious to get hung on such a minute thing

In the hands of someone ultimately weaker than Raiden, it can't, but this doesn't prove that Raiden can jump dramatically in power in the middle of a fight.

y-you know that Raiden was equal/only slightly superior to Sam right up to that point, right? Sam's fight comes right before the EXCELSUS one, and Sam is a threat to Raiden even when disarmed. Also, you can very clearly see that in scripted scenes that Raiden's Murasama still bounces off of his fist

The throat is a more vunerable part of the body by default, and kicking someone in the shin does tend to make it harder to stand, and is bound to be more effective than just punching them in the chest. And overall he's still not actually doing that much.

there's no "vulnerable part" to Armstrong, he has a "nanomachine body", and there's simply no getting around the fact he visibly harms Armstrong, who even grunts in pain and is clearly at least slightly battered after the whole ordeal

Upgrades include increasing the attack power of his blades and HP. Sure, unlockable skills are apart of it, but he can in fact increase his stats. And it's a much lesser assumption to say that "upgrades" can in fact refer to improving Raiden's performance in combat than to say Raiden has a secret, entirely unexplained or addressed capacity to dramatically increase his stats in the middle of combat.

Again, both gameplay mechanics, because believe it or not Raiden doesn't actually upgrade his health by picking random cells off the floor, nor does he use swords o weapons beyond his own. Yeah no, it's not a "much lesser assumption" to say that Dok was actually, mysteriously amping his physical stats from halfway across the world in secret without ever mentioning it, it's not only just as big of an assumption, it's also logistically impossible, because Dok has no way of effecting Raiden beyond pain suppression and various tips and tricks.
This would be a halfassed bandaid, made just to handwave the ability away, nothing more

 

[Twellas]

Seriosuly, how is "Dok is actually using some mysterious tech to boost Raiden's physical capabilities from afar, without telling anyone about it and without it being displayed in any way" more "likely" than "Raiden, a natural born killer who can already has a feat of mastering swordsmanship in less than 5 minutes and who was a one man army as a child gets a lot stronger through fighting"? Not to mention just how much that would break the canon, because why didn't he just boost Raiden right away while fighting Armstrong?

On this note, I'll say a quick thing about those who think that Raiden's RPL would somehow break the Armstrong fight. Even with his AP boost, Raiden wouldn't have been able to beat Armstrong if he didn't have the Murasama, due to Armstrong's regeneration, which was implied in a canon guide to be comparable to Vamp's. In order to kill Armstrong effectively, he'd need to Zandatsu his heart (He straight up says so), which you physically cannot do without a sword, because Zandatsu means "cut and take", Raiden couldn't physically get to Armstrong's heart without a sword or a cutting weapon in general.

"But why did nobody mention this ability of Raiden's?" Because they didn't know? Hell, Dok is absolutely dumbfounded after seeing Ripper Mode, and he's the one who MADE Raiden's body, it's not at all a stretch to say that such an ability would go under the radar

 

[DMUA]

I did sorta mix up my addressing of accelerated development and Reactive Power Level, on that end. Either way, moving away from that because I can agree that him being upgraded in the middle of combat doesn't make any sense...

don't know, still, no canonical reason for them to not be hardened, no in-character reason for him to not harden them, and regardless we have an instance of Raiden kicking a blackened part and hurting him, you do you, you have to be straight up malicious to get hung on such a minute this

With a double dropkick where the soles of his feet are glowing. I'm pretty sure this is just a showing of him putting more effort into a specific attack, like what was mentioned earlier.

there's no "vulnerable part" to Armstrong, he has a "nanomachine body", and there's simply no getting around the fact he visibly harms Armstrong, who even grunts in pain and is clearly at least slightly battered after the whole ordeal

He's still a human being that is bound to react when you punch them in a thinner part of their body where they also happen to breathe out of.

The most damage on his body that can be seen is the fact his shirt is slightly ripped. He's still overall mostly unphased.

"Raiden, a natural born killer who can already master swordsmanship in less than 5 minutes and who was a one man army as a child gets a lot stronger through fighting"

How does having an extreme level of skill since your youth justify the capacity to dramatically increase raw strength in the middle of combat?

he'd need to Zandatsu his heart (He straight up says so), which you physically cannot do without a sword, because Zandatsu means "cut and take", Raiden couldn't physically get to Armstrong's heart without a sword or a cutting weapon in general.

Or, if they are able to actually dramatically increase their stats, they could do the heart rip raw without the need for Zandatsu.

"But why did nobody mention this ability of Raiden's?" Because they didn't know? Hell, Dok is absolutely dumbfounded after seeing Ripper Mode, and he's the one who MADE Raiden's body, it's not at all a stretch to say that such an ability would go under the radar

And you'd think he'd have a similar shocked reaction to this new capability, in that case?

 

[ShivaShakti]

no, kicking someone in the sheen is not a skill thing, neither is pushing back against his punch, neither is punching him in the throat, neither is kicking him in the stomach, or are you ignoring those parts?

Shin kicks are pretty common technique in MMA and Kickboxing, with many variations on said technique. Jon Jones is pretty famous for his Oblique kick, which he even states is meant to keep his opponent at bay and stop them from getting closer or trying to kick him from a distance. In kickboxing as well its sometimes used for knocking their opponent to the ground. The way in which Raiden uses it here especially, he does it right as Armstrong raises his leg to kick him, and counters his move.

Him kicking him in the stomach is also a skill thing. That isn't just a regular half assed kick, that's a spinning back kick. He transitions into this move after rebounding from the shin kick counter.

The throat punch? You forget to mention thats a counter attack. He redirect's Armstrong's punch, then jabs him immediately after.

This is skill. It requires skill to excecute each of these techniques, especially in the way Raiden used them to counter and attempt to outfight Armstrong. From the clip you're referring to it's quite obvious Raiden is using various martial arts techniques (Even uses a Superman Punch and sweeps his leg at the end.)

 

[AKM sama]

@Qawsedf234 You commented earlier here. Do you have some opinion on this?

 

[Twellas]

With a double dropkick where the soles of his feet are glowing. I'm pretty sure this is just a showing of him putting more effort into a specific attack, like what was mentioned earlier.

Raiden literally went "and now i'll take your life" after phase 1, the idea of him only now "putting more effort" into his attacks makes no sense whatsoever. Also, Raiden threw an absolute barrage of lightning-punches at Armstrong minutes prior and he no-sold them. The whole lightning effect thingy shouldn't be given any real attention in terms of power-scaling, it's just a cool visual, it happens in stuff like LS QTEs to make them more hype, but other than that we aren't given an explaination for it and it's wildly inconsistent

He's still a human being that is bound to react when you punch them in a thinner part of their body where they also happen to breathe out of.

The most damage on his body that can be seen is the fact his shirt is slightly ripped. He's still overall mostly unphased.

Again, Armstrong has a "nanomachine body", every single part of his body is permeated of nanomachines, there is no "thinner" or "weaker" part to him.
And while yes, Raiden obviously leaves no permanent damage, he still visibly staggers him and manages to overpower him, something he categorically couldn't do in the scene before

How does having an extreme level of skill since your youth justify the capacity to dramatically increase raw strength in the middle of combat?

It doesn't, what I'm saying is that it's not like fast growth is some alien concept to him, he already has a comparable feat, in another aspect, yes, but still a comparable feat. Since one of the main gripes with the RPL, AD or whatever you wanna call it, is that it "has no basis in canon", the fact that Raiden has displayed the same identical power in a different stat in his very first appearance is fairly relevant and could convince someone

Or, if they are able to actually dramatically increase their stats, they could do the heart rip raw without the need for Zandatsu.

And how exactly is he gonna CUT into Armstrong's chest? Also, Zandatsu is a straight up technique, a sword technique, you can't do it without a sword.

Ah btw, how could Raiden crush Armstrong's nanomachine heart without being strong enough to bypass Armstrong's nanomachines in the first place? And no, there's no reason to believe his heart is somehow weaker than the rest of his body, it's only a weak spot in the sense that if destroyed Armstrong will die (yes yes I know that this is common place for hearts, but it's not for Cyborgs, or even nanomachine users, just look at Vamp, to whom Armstrong scales) and the description we are given about how his body works makes it quite clear that the heart itself should be nanomachine-infused as well... also, it's black just like his hardened nanomachines

And you'd think he'd have a similar shocked reaction to this new capability, in that case?

It's not quite as apparent as literally emitting a red aura and completely changing your personality on a whim. Also Dok doesn't directly confront Raiden about RM, he only does it because he asks him about his pain suppression, otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. If he wasn't going to talk about something as blatant as RM, what are the chances he would ever bring up the AD? Especailly after Raiden straight up snaps at him and says "I do my business, you do yours".

Shin kicks are pretty common technique in MMA and Kickboxing, with many variations on said technique. Jon Jones is pretty famous for his Oblique kick, which he even states is meant to keep his opponent at bay and stop them from getting closer or trying to kick him from a distance. In kickboxing as well its sometimes used for knocking their opponent to the ground. The way in which Raiden uses it here especially, he does it right as Armstrong raises his leg to kick him, and counters his move.

Him kicking him in the stomach is also a skill thing. That isn't just a regular half assed kick, that's a spinning back kick. He transitions into this move after rebounding from the shin kick counter.

The throat punch? You forget to mention thats a counter attack. He redirect's Armstrong's punch, then jabs him immediately after.

This is skill. It requires skill to excecute each of these techniques, especially in the way Raiden used them to counter and attempt to outfight Armstrong. From the clip you're referring to it's quite obvious Raiden is using various martial arts techniques (Even uses a Superman Punch and sweeps his leg at the end.)

No amount of skill will let you hurt someone who can literally no-sell all your shit, you using irl MMA as an example is completely mind boggling, MMA (and irl martial arts as a whole) aren't made for users to fight people who are this monumentally stronger than you are. The fact that his punches and kicks are skillful doesn't erase the fact that he physically wouldn't have enough strength to let them do anything if he didn't get stronger: no matter how skillfull I am at kicking a wall, that wall is not ******* moving unless i hit it with enough force


Just to be clear, I also think this is some form of AD and not RPL, the problem is that the AD profile states that battle-AD should be listed as RPL, and since this is clearly battle AD...

 

[DaReaperMan]

Raiden literally went "and now i'll take your life" after phase 1, the idea of him only now "putting more effort" into his attacks makes no sense whatsoever. Also, Raiden threw an absolute barrage of lightning-punches at Armstrong minutes prior and he no-sold them. The whole lightning effect thingy shouldn't be given any real attention in terms of power-scaling, it's just a cool visual, it happens in stuff like LS QTEs to make them more hype, but other than that we aren't given an explaination for it and it's wildly inconsistent

Again, Armstrong has a "nanomachine body", every single part of his body is permeated of nanomachines, there is no "thinner" or "weaker" part to him.
And while yes, Raiden obviously leaves no permanent damage, he still visibly staggers him and manages to overpower him, something he categorically couldn't do in the scene before

It doesn't, what I'm saying is that it's not like fast growth is some alien concept to him, he already has a comparable feat, in another aspect, yes, but still a comparable feat. Since one of the main gripes with the RPL, AD or whatever you wanna call it, is that it "has no basis in canon", the fact that Raiden has displayed the same identical power in a different stat is fairly relevant and could convince someone

And how exactly is he gonna CUT into Armstrong's chest? Also, Zandatsu is a straight up technique, a sword technique, you can't do it without a sword.

Ah btw, how could Raiden crush Armstrong's nanomachine heart without being strong enough to bypass Armstrong's nanomachines in the first place? And no, there's no reason to believe his heart is somehow weaker than the rest of his body, it's only a weak spot in the sense that if destroyed Armstrong will die (yes yes I know that this is common place for hearts, but it's not for Cyborgs, or even nanomachine users, just look at Vamp, to whom Armstrong scales) and the description we are given about how his body works makes it quite clear that the heart itself should be nanomachine-infused as well... also, it's black just like his hardened nanomachines

It's not quite as apparent as literally emitting a red aura and completely changing your personality on a whim. Also Dok doesn't directly confront Raiden about RM, he only does it because he asks him about his pain suppression, otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. If he wasn't going to talk about something as blatant as RM, what are the chances he would ever bring up the AD? Especailly after Raiden straight up snaps at him and says "I do my business, you do yours".

No amount of skill will let you hurt someone who can literally no-sell all your shit, you using irl MMA as an example is completely mind boggling, MMA (and irl martial arts as a whole) aren't made for users to fight people who are this monumentally stronger than you are. The fact that his punches and kicks are skillful doesn't erase the fact that he physically wouldn't have enough strength to let them do anything if he didn't get stronger: no matter how skillfull I am at kicking a wall, that wall is not ******* moving unless i hit it with enough force


Just to be clear, I also think this is some form of AD and not RPL, the problem is that the AD profile states that battle-AD should be listed as RPL, and since this is clearly battle AD...

Beast Wars: Megatron 'Yes' Compilation. - YouTube
i think this explains my opinion on this

 

[Arcker123]

idk why we are using mma fighters as an example here. The difference between any two mma fighters is not so huge that one can not even flinch at multiple strikes from the opponent.

 

[Chariot190]

With a double dropkick where the soles of his feet are glowing. I'm pretty sure this is just a showing of him putting more effort into a specific attack, like what was mentioned earlier.

You do know that's a standard effect that applies to practically every single attack thrown not only in that fight, but basically the whole game? Like, Raiden's blows having electricity is something that's just standard fair, it's not a real indication of anything, and if it was you'd actually be arguing against yourself here, why do i say that? Because you're acting like Raiden didn't throw like a hundred electric effect punches and blows at Armstrong earlier and they did nothing, Armstrong literally went "eh". And Raiden also threw an electric punch directly at his face only for Armstrong to respond with "You can't hurt me Jack".
If you're saying that Raiden's attacks being electrified signify him putting in effort, then you basically just agreed he was putting in the same amount of effort as to when his attacks did Jack shit, given both cases had them electrified.

He's still a human being that is bound to react when you punch them in a thinner part of their body where they also happen to breathe out of.

Actually not really the case, the nanomachines take care of that, that's literally the point (and the nano's don't really have a issue with a part being thin or not, see the Sam fight for example where we get a cross section and we're shown the nano's effect even under the skin and the entire bodily mass all the way through, as in, if the nano's defend, the entire part of impact gets protected, even all the way down and through), it being a more vulnerable part isn't really a good argument as the nano's completely invalidate whatever weakness that part had, also mind you we're talking about the dude who who could talk while his heart was ripped out of his chest and destroyed or could almost immediately respond after getting impaled or wasnt even phased by getting a limbed sliced off. And mind you Armstrong responds saying Raiden is hurting him multiple points throughout the fight, even against like, face and chest blows. Literally to quote, "That one hurt!" Or "This is the greatest fight of my life!" Or "Inaudible screaming and probably busting a vein due to getting kicked in the side do hard we can literally hear the crunching of metal if not a broken bone".

The most damage on his body that can be seen is the fact his shirt is slightly ripped. He's still overall mostly unphased.

And yet by the end of the fight Armstrong is balls to the walls pissed, roughed up, and actively states Raiden is harming him, physically mind you, without the sword. If anything that's indication of Raiden closing the gap even further, given a few minutes later Armstrong goes from being barely phased to yelling and screaming and exclaiming pain and being dealt massive damage with Raiden's bare fists.

Or, if they are able to actually dramatically increase their stats, they could do the heart rip raw without the need for Zandatsu.

No? Nanomachines literally prevent that? And that's a moot point, Raiden still went from being demonstrably weaker, to being able to hold his ground albeit barely to physically overpowering him and causing massive damage, all without RM, Muramasa, and so on, like I'm really not so sure what's hard to understand here, it literally happens plain as day. Just because he didn't go from being weaker to literally being so strong he could make like Dio and blow a hole through his chest with one punch blowing out his heart doesn't mean he didn't progress in strength.

And you'd think he'd have a similar shocked reaction to this new capability, in that case?

I mean, to be fair, the game literally ends five seconds later though? Maybe if he got the chance to react this would be a fair point.

---

...Shin kicks are pretty common technique in MMA and Kickboxing, with many variations on said technique. Jon Jones is pretty famous for his Oblique kick, which he even states is meant to keep his opponent at bay and keep them from getting closer or trying to kick him from a distance. In kickboxing as well its sometimes used for knocking their opponent to the ground as well.

I mean, ok but that doesn't really change the fact said kick still hurt Armstrong, it may have been a skillful technique but it being skillful doesnt somehow make it able to hurt Armstrong, which it did.

Him kicking him in the stomach is also a skill thing. That isn't just a regular half assed kick, that's a spinning back kick.

And it hurt him, which is the point, previously, nothing Raiden could do was capable of really do much if anything, even other fancy kicks.

The throat punch? You forget to mention thats a counter attack. He redirect's Armstrong's punch, then jabs him immediately after.

And it HURT him. Also the fact he redirected a pissed off punch in the first place...

This is skill. It requires skill to excecute each of these techniques, especially in the way Raiden used them to counter and outfight Armstrong. From the clip you're referring to it's quite obvious Raiden is using various martial arts techniques (Even uses a Superman Punch and sweeps his leg at the end.)

Yes, Raiden is exceptionally skilled and one of the most skilled characters in his entire verse, even long before this game. But you fail to realize that being skilled doesnt mean somehow make you magically able to floor your opponent and hurt him badly, when minutes prior literally nothing you did phased him at all. Like you can be as skilled as you want, but if you cant harm the opponent, even the most skilled techniques ever will fail to actively inflict pain or damage beyond simply tripping up or anything. Also that's ignoring a lot of what Raiden did against Armstrong including the most damaging attacks are basic full powered punches or flip kicks.

Also I'd like to point out that Twellas is probably honestly right in regards to the "not always turning black" thing being just, hardware limitations or lazy devs, as if one pays attention, in the QTE's, when Raiden punches, black debris get launched off of Armstrong upon impact along with vast amounts of sparks (given we see tiny pieces of the nano's get blown away, plus sparks due to, well, two heavy metal things clashing at high speeds), plus we can hear heavy metal crunching in a few scenes, like where Raiden kicks him in the ribs so hard it makes him go 200% mad. (Also like, if Armstrong's nano's didnt defend him against Raiden's attack, he'd literally ******* die, as strong as he may be, without the defenses, he's still just a giga chad human, which while impressive, isn't exactly beyond tier 10-C/9-B who'd would explode into a paste if punched by even the weakest cyborg). Also if you frame by frame Raiden ends up smacking Armstrong in the blackened parts multiple times regardless so this is a bit of a moot point (such as in the jab scene, the neck chop and so on).

Not to mention if we really go this route then nothing would change because mind you, the Muramusa doesn't instantly shred Armstrong when it hit places that aren't black so again, moot point with that, and Raiden's HF blade and physical strikes on flesh colored places still did jack shit prior yet afterward they did noticeable to massive damage. So either way you slice it, Raiden's attacks still went from doing nothing to doing lots without aid.

 

[Arcker123]

Bruce lee is not punching a hole in a wall any sooner than i can

 

[DaReaperMan]

Didn't Armstrong no-sell the EXCELSUS explosion with Raiden? Without nanomachine activation?

 

[Chariot190]

Didn't Armstrong no-sell the EXCELSUS explosion with Raiden? Without nanomachine activation?

No, regardless, Armstrong is always protected by nano's. They activate automatically in response to trauma and harm to protect him from it.
Without nano's Armstrong is basically just a buff Mike Tyson tier character.

 

[Armorchompy]

No, regardless, Armstrong is always protected by nano's. They activate automatically in response to trauma and harm to protect him from it.
Without nano's Armstrong is basically just a buff Mike Tyson tier character.

He literally needs to drain Excelsus/A bunch of helicopters' energy to activate them, though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, regardless, Armstrong is always protected by nano's. They activate automatically in response to trauma and harm to protect him from it.
Without nano's Armstrong is basically just a buff Mike Tyson tier character.

Physical trauma is what he said, heat ain't Physical trauma

Though without nanos he's probably 8-C to 8-B if he didn't no-sell the explosion without nanos, you know the tier of every other human in MGS

 

[Armorchompy]

I seriously doubt he's anywhere near a MGS peak human, he's a more-than-middle-aged ex athlete who probably doesn't have that much time to work out.

 

[Twellas]

the "not always turning black" thing being just, hardware limitations or lazy devs,

I wouldn't actually say "lazy devs", with the Armstrong fight, they've shown to be everything but lazy. I think it's either an overlook or a limitation, after all, MGR had a notoriously troubled development history, it's a miracle it even came out

 

[DaReaperMan]

I seriously doubt he's anywhere near a MGS peak human, he's a more-than-middle-aged ex athlete who probably doesn't have that much time to work out.

We don't have any other humans in MGS with feats to scale him to, so 8-C to 8-B in MGS is all there is

 

[Armorchompy]

They never really skimp out on the production value of the cutscenes, though, why would they on the final boss?

 

[Chariot190]

I seriously doubt he's anywhere near a MGS peak human, he's a more-than-middle-aged ex athlete who probably doesn't have that much time to work out.

Yes because the 7 foot tall musclebound body builder who was part of the navy is simply a middle aged man. Dude's bicep is probably bigger then your head.

They never really skimp out on the production value of the cutscenes, though, why would they on the final boss?

Because they didn't? I hope you realize this is a literal by definition nitpick that is contradicted by everything we're shown, including various other effects in that very same fight such as the clusterfuck of sparks and metal clanging sfx upon impacts with Armstrong, even what seems to be pieces of flung shrapnel.

 

[DaReaperMan]

10-A physically, high 7-C with nanomachines?

Like I said above, no feats below 8-C i believe

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes because the 7 foot tall musclebound body builder who was part of the navy is simply a middle aged man. Dude's bicep is probably bigger then your head.



Because they didn't? I hope you realize this is a literal by definition nitpick that is contradicted by everything we're shown, including various other effects in that very same fight.

With nanos probably, otherwise he's 6'2 to 6'5 built like a shit brick house.

 

[Twellas]

They never really skimp out on the production value of the cutscenes, though, why would they on the final boss?

it's not really "skimping out", it's more that it would be ridiculously time consuming to animate it properly, they'd have to hand-animate Armstrong's body every time Raiden hits him, why even do that when they already established how the power works?

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes because the 7 foot tall musclebound body builder who was part of the navy is simply a middle aged man. Dude's bicep is probably bigger then your head.

I mean, no shit he's strong, but I'd seriously doubt him being able to not get immediately crushed in a fight against any peak human in the series- this is just speculation anyway, not that important.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, no shit he's strong, but I'd seriously doubt him being able to not get immediately crushed in a fight against any peak human in the series- this is just speculation anyway, not that important.

I mean, yeah? He'd get floored by Big Boss or Gene or Volgin, etc. Im just saying with nano's, the dude is still peak human, by like, our real life standards, given he could have been a professional athlete, has military and seal training, and is built like a literal truck that's like olympian body building tier just about.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Well, coming back to the topic, Armstrong does not have visual hardening when Raiden hits him normally with Murasama, so it's obviously a budget thing. And Raiden's dropkick made that metallic, crunchy sound, so yeah.