Puella Magi Verse: Revival Discussion Thread

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Plus there can be an argument for FTL arguments, as in Wraith arc Mami's bullets are equal in speed with lasers. Homura's feat would make the verse MFTL.

You kinda need to prove the laser shares the same properties as natural light first though. Unless the regulation changes again when I wasn't around.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I think Homura should just downscale from Sayaka physically, aka just being above Elly imo.

Her feats clashing with Mami in CQC sounds a lot more sense though, especially when it consistent with how she was able to knock Sayaka out in one hit. It also consistent with how she was able to kill Charlotte with her weapons.

 

[Kwk258]

I actually want to use Madoka to expand the power of other magical girls, but you know it's difficult to determine who is stronger than Madoka. The magical ability of a magical girl is the greatest prank.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You kinda need to prove the laser shares the same properties as natural light first though. Unless the regulation changes again when I wasn't around.

They did. Being a laser is enough as that's the very definition of one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Her feats clashing with Mami in CQC sounds a lot more sense though, especially when it consistent with how she was able to knock Sayaka out in one hit. It also consistent with how she was able to kill Charlotte with her weapons.

Then from where does that 0 attack stat come from?

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

They did. Being a laser is enough as that's the very definition of one.

Well that's really neat then.

Then from where does that 0 attack stat come from?

About magical girls, witches, and little aliens who fight entropy

vsbattles.fandom.com

The verse In-verse rating, but I think we should stop relying on this and uses more shown feats.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The verse In-verse rating, but I think we should stop relying on this and uses more shown feats.

I am aware of that, I've even linked it.

But if you are fine with completely discarding it due to contradictions then that's ok, we don't use the Stand stats for Jojo either given how these heavily contradict the in-verse scaling, unless is for very specific things like MiH's speed or GER's 0 stats.

 

[Unqver]

Well that's really neat then.

About magical girls, witches, and little aliens who fight entropy

vsbattles.fandom.com

The verse In-verse rating, but I think we should stop relying on this and uses more shown feats.

To be honest, I think this blog is a bit exaggerated.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I am aware of that, I've even linked it.

But if you are fine with completely discarding it due to contradictions then that's ok, we don't use the Stand stats for Jojo either given how these heavily contradict the in-verse scaling, unless is for very specific things like MiH's speed or GER's 0 stats.

The problem with Puella in-verse scaling is that we don't have any consistent multiplier between each ratings. For example: There is 7 times difference in AP between rating 0 and 0.5. But then the difference between rating 0.5 and 1 is 21 times more than the previous difference.

Disposing the usage of it seems to be the best course of actions.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

To be honest, I think this blog is a bit exaggerated.

It was a very old blog. It shouldn't be met with the wiki current standard as it relies on arbitrary numbers.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The problem with Puella in-verse scaling is that we don't have any consistent multiplier between each ratings. For example: There is 7 times difference in AP between rating 0 and 0.5. But then the difference between rating 0.5 and 1 is 21 times more than the previous difference.

That's more like non-linear power levels than inconsistency. Undertale uses this logic for the ATK and DEF, where everything up to 17 is 9-B, but from 18 and up is 9-A.

Again, if the stats are straight up contradicted from what actually happens in the scaling, that's a whole other thing.

 

[Unqver]

It was a very old blog. It shouldn't be met with the wiki current standard as it relies on arbitrary numbers.

I don't think this kind of numerical graph is meaningful. The best examples are tart and Pernelle Flamel.

 

[Kwk258]

I suspect that Joan of Arc's author has changed some character designs. The combat effectiveness of the Great Sage would be too low if calculated based on numerical values.
...

 

[Unqver]

I suspect that Joan of Arc's author has changed some character designs. The combat effectiveness of the Great Sage would be too low if calculated based on numerical values.
...

Pernelle Flamel's value should be scribbled.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What's with people ignoring whatever link I post now? I already posted a translated version of those.

The combat effectiveness of the Great Sage would be too low if calculated based on numerical values.

This is what I call "non-linear power level", it's something already used for Undertale and Dragon Ball. They're not used as multipliers, but rather just things to tell who is stronger between X and Y with no real math involved.

 

[Unqver]

What's with people ignoring whatever link I post now? I already posted a translated version of those.



This is what I call "non-linear power level", it's something already used for Undertale and Dragon Ball. They're not used as multipliers, but rather just things to tell who is stronger between X and Y with no real math involved.

Because this Japanese is not too difficult for me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because this Japanese is not too difficult for me.

You do realize that this is an english website, and we post things in english, right? Do you really expect us to understand whatever untranslated japanese scan you link?

 

[Unqver]

Because this Japanese is not too difficult for me.

And Pernelle Flamel can't be under the second stage of tart.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

What's with people ignoring whatever link I post now? I already posted a translated version of those.



This is what I call "non-linear power level", it's something already used for Undertale and Dragon Ball. They're not used as multipliers, but rather just things to tell who is stronger between X and Y with no real math involved.

Wouldn't have issue with how Puella can jump tier between one and another without any clear multiplier? I recall someone brought it up about Mami getting 7-A AP rating via scaling to a 7-B character.

 

[Kwk258]

This is what I call "non-linear power level", it's something already used for Undertale and Dragon Ball. They're not used as multipliers, but rather just things to tell who is stronger between X and Y with no real math involved.

Touché
Although it may lead to a high 3A magic girl, it is a good idea.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn't have issue with how Puella can jump tier between one and another without any clear multiplier? I recall someone brought up with how Mami can get 7-A AP rating via scaling to a 7-B character.

Absolutely not. Dragon Ball does not work like that, as for example 5 is 10-B, 30 is 8-C, 200 is 5-C and 10k is 5-B.

Undertale too, any ATK/DEF stat that is up to 17 is 9-B, but 18 and above is 9-A.

Usually, in these cases, unless lower ranks have a good reason to downscale from higher ones, I take this approach:

• Take a scale of in-verse tiers, beginning from 1.
• 1 has a 8-C feat, 5 has a 5-B one, and 10 has a 4-A one.

Now, we use these scenarios:

• Anything from 2 to 4 will just upscale from 8-C, anything from 6 to 9 will upscale from 5-B, and anything from 10 onwards will just be 4-A.
• Unless power levels of 3/4 have genuine reason to downscale to 5 (as in, they never interacted in fights) they won't do so, and will be stuck in 8-C, and this applies also to 8/9 not being able to downscale from 10's power unless they have a reason as well.
• These aren't multipliers, but mere levels of power. Meaning that 2 is not assumed to be twice stronger than 1, but merely to be stronger on an unquantifiable degree, as this stuff is non-linear after all.

 

[Unqver]

Absolutely not. Dragon Ball does not work like that, as for example 5 is 10-B, 30 is 8-C, 200 is 5-C and 10k is 5-B.

Undertale too, any ATK/DEF stat that is up to 17 is 9-B, but 18 and above is 9-A.

Usually, in these cases, unless lower ranks have a good reason to downscale from higher ones, I take this approach:

• Take a scale of in-verse tiers, beginning from 1.
• 1 has a 8-C feat, 5 has a 5-B one, and 10 has a 4-A one.

Now, we use these scenarios:

• Anything from 2 to 4 will just upscale from 8-C, anything from 6 to 9 will upscale from 5-B, and anything from 10 onwards will just be 4-A.
• Unless power levels of 3/4 have genuine reason to downscale to 5 (as in, they never interacted in fights) they won't do so, and will be stuck in 8-C, and this applies also to 8/9 not being able to downscale from 10's power unless they have a reason as well.
• These aren't multipliers, but mere levels of power. Meaning that 2 is not assumed to be twice stronger than 1, but merely to be stronger on an unquantifiable degree, as this stuff is non-linear after all.

So, what exactly should these values be treated?

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, what exactly should these values be treated?

Honestly, I have no idea.

If OG show only, we know for now that Mami has a 7-B feat and Sayaka one shotted a 7-C witch.

But, if @Beast_Zero_Gudako is right about all these instances of downscaling, I'd simply argue that everything below Mami should downscale from her (like Homura directly fighting her, unless the "post-Godoka" version is stronger than the "pre-Godoka" one).

But I just explained how these instances with non-linear power levels should be treated, as making mathematical multipliers with them is absolutely wrong and only leads to leaps in logic.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Honestly, I have no idea.

If OG show only, we know for now that Mami has a 7-B feat and Sayaka one shotted a 7-C witch.

But, if @Beast_Zero_Gudako is right about all these instances of downscaling, I'd simply argue that everything below Mami should downscale from her (like Homura directly fighting her, unless the "post-Godoka" version is stronger than the "pre-Godoka" one).

But I just explained how these instances with non-linear power levels should be treated, as making mathematical multipliers with them is absolutely wrong and only leads to leaps in logic.

Alright let's break it down all the known in-verse rating along with their respective known feats, we're going to cover the AP and Durability rating for now. Feels free to add anything that I miss.

0: This is the lowest known rating occupied by Homura AP. Known feats: Physically knocking out Sayaka who has durability rating of 0.5 in one hit. Physically matched Mami who has AP rating of 4.5 in CQC.

0.5: This rating is occupied by Sayaka's durability rating. Known feats: No known AP feat from this rating, but it has a durability feat from Sayaka tanked H.N Elly attacks who according to your calc is 7-C.

1: This rating is occupied by Minou AP, as well as Homura, Mami and Liz Dura. Known feats: No known AP feat from this rating, although Minou current profile rates her in the same tier as Sayaka, it's most likely to be a mistake. The only durability feat I know from this rating is Homura's survived an attack from Walpurgisnacht, who currently rated 6-C, during their battle in Anime episode 11.

1.5: This is occupied by Sayaka and Pernelle's AP rating. Known feats: Sayaka one shotting H.N Elly who, according to your calc, is tier 7-C.

2: This is occupied by Melissa durability rating. Known feats: I will need to reread Tart Magica again to see if she has tanked some attack from any character. Her durability rating is unknown because there is no reference to this rating.

3. This rating is occupied by Kyoko, Liz and Corbeau. Known feats: Liz damaged Corbeau who also has durability of this rating. Kyoko destroyed Okativa barrier, fights Avatar of Calamity's duplicate during Wraith Arc, fights Mami in one of the spin-off Manga.

3.5: This rating is occupied by Second Timeline Madoka and Melissa AP. Known feats: Madoka deflects Patricia attacks, a witch that should be superior than H.N Elly.

4: This rating is occupied by Lapin. Known feats: I don't clearly remember her feats but she fought Elisa, Liz and Melissa at once if I recall.

4.5: This rating is occupied by Mami and Elisa. Known feats: Killed several clones of Avatar of Calamity's during the Wraith Arc, fought Homura and Homulily familiar in rebellion.

5: This rating is occupied by Fleche. I don't know anything about her feats.

6. This rating is occupied by Third Timeline Madoka and Tart. Known feats: Madoka casually performed 6-C feats, Tart I recalls she destroyed an entire witch labyrinth with one attack.

7.5: This rating is occupied by Tart ver.2. I also don't know much about her feats.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If for 6-C feat you mean the Madoka splitting a cloud in MR, I've recalced it to High 6-C+. Seriously man, I told you to read that blog.

But regardless, as 0 and 3 do actually interact with Mami in fights, I'd say that they all should just downscale from Mami, as otherwise Mami would have one shotted Homura.

Though I've found a weird inconsistency, Kyoko ragdolling Sayaka in the 1st encounter... Isn't that contradictory already? If you can find more stuff that straight up contradicts those stats (because by these stats logic, if 3 stomps 1.5, then 4.5 would have stomped 0 way harder) we might just discard those stats.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

If for 6-C feat you mean the Madoka splitting a cloud in MR, I've recalced it to High 6-C+. Seriously man, I told you to read that blog.

Actually, I just realized. I don't think we can scale Madoka Magia Record clouds splitting feat to the main timeline Madoka. We initially thought Magia Record timeline is just a divergent from the second timeline due to the similar scene during the fight against Patricia. But it was revealed later in Homura personal story that Magirecord timeline has nothing to do with the main timeline at all. It is one of the reason why MR timeline was unaffected by Madoka's Multiversal reset.

But regardless, as 0 and 3 do actually interact with Mami in fights, I'd say that they all should just downscale from Mami, as otherwise Mami would have one shotted Homura.

Though I've found a weird inconsistency, Kyoko ragdolling Sayaka in the 1st encounter... Isn't that contradictory already? If you can find more stuff that straight up contradicts those stats (because by these stats logic, if 3 stomps 1.5, then 4.5 would have stomped 0 way harder) we might just discard those stats.

I think I could find some from Tart Magica. But again, I will need to reread the whole thing to make sure.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually, I just realized. I don't think we can scale Madoka Magia Record clouds splitting feat to the main timeline Madoka. We initially thought Magia Record timeline is just a divergent from the second timeline due to the similar scene during the fight against Patricia. But it was revealed later in Homura personal story that Magirecord timeline has nothing to do with the main timeline at all. It is one of the reason why MR timeline was unaffected by Madoka's Multiversal reset.

Always found it baseless and weird, aye.

Plus Holy Mami's feat was recalced at Low 7-B, og calc uses KE which is invalid for most of these feats now, unless we see clear cloud movement.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Always found it baseless and weird, aye.

Plus Holy Mami's feat was recalced at Low 7-B, og calc uses KE which is invalid for most of these feats now, unless we see clear cloud movement.

Magia Record should have its own scaling chains.

I believe somebodydata has many unused Magia Record feats calc in his blogs, some of them involving Witches Labyrinth. Maybe you can check on them and maybe recalcs them using the current standard if they're no longer valid.

Also, we need to get rid of Walpurgisnacht first key, It never make sense why it exists to begin with. Third Timeline Madoka beats full power Walpurgisnacht high-diff. She should fully scales to this.

 

[Unqver]

Actually, I just realized. I don't think we can scale Madoka Magia Record clouds splitting feat to the main timeline Madoka. We initially thought Magia Record timeline is just a divergent from the second timeline due to the similar scene during the fight against Patricia. But it was revealed later in Homura personal story that Magirecord timeline has nothing to do with the main timeline at all. It is one of the reason why MR timeline was unaffected by Madoka's Multiversal reset.

I think I could find some from Tart Magica. But again, I will need to reread the whole thing to make sure.

About tart's suggestion to browse the related activities in magia records.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I believe somebodydata has many unused Magia Record feats calc in his blogs, some of them involving Witches Labyrinth. Maybe you can check on them and maybe recalcs them using the current standard if they're no longer valid.

My problem with his calc is that they're completely scanless, making very hard to understand the feats in question.

I am not opposed to use them though, just that they need scans, so maybe I can also recalc them.

Also, we need to get rid of Walpurgisnacht first key, It never make sense why it exists to begin with. Third Timeline Madoka beats full power Walpurgisnacht high-diff. She should fully scales to this.

Never understood why the **** it becomes massively stronger from just flipping lmao.

Also off topic but the fact that none of the God Tiers of PMMM has some kind of Nonduality is insane.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Like, the fact that most of the scans in his blogs are also dead is very concerning as well.

This is why we need a massive overhaul, those profiles are hot garbo.

 

[Kwk258]

【Good job, big sister. You’re correct. Emotional energy is thepower of fate.】From Null magical girl​

From this sentence, we can conclude that the magical girl possesses Fate Manipulation.​

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Alright let's break it down all the known in-verse rating along with their respective known feats, we're going to cover the AP and Durability rating for now. Feels free to add anything that I miss.

0: This is the lowest known rating occupied by Homura AP. Known feats: Physically knocking out Sayaka who has durability rating of 0.5 in one hit. Physically matched Mami who has AP rating of 4.5 in CQC.

0.5: This rating is occupied by Sayaka's durability rating. Known feats: No known AP feat from this rating, but it has a durability feat from Sayaka tanked H.N Elly attacks who according to your calc is 7-C.

1: This rating is occupied by Minou AP, as well as Homura, Mami and Liz Dura. Known feats: No known AP feat from this rating, although Minou current profile rates her in the same tier as Sayaka, it's most likely to be a mistake. The only durability feat I know from this rating is Homura's survived an attack from Walpurgisnacht, who currently rated 6-C, during their battle in Anime episode 11.

1.5: This is occupied by Sayaka and Pernelle's AP rating. Known feats: Sayaka one shotting H.N Elly who, according to your calc, is tier 7-C.

2: This is occupied by Melissa durability rating. Known feats: I will need to reread Tart Magica again to see if she has tanked some attack from any character. Her durability rating is unknown because there is no reference to this rating.

3. This rating is occupied by Kyoko, Liz and Corbeau. Known feats: Liz damaged Corbeau who also has durability of this rating. Kyoko destroyed Okativa barrier, fights Avatar of Calamity's duplicate during Wraith Arc, fights Mami in one of the spin-off Manga.

3.5: This rating is occupied by Second Timeline Madoka and Melissa AP. Known feats: Madoka deflects Patricia attacks, a witch that should be superior than H.N Elly.

4: This rating is occupied by Lapin. Known feats: I don't clearly remember her feats but she fought Elisa, Liz and Melissa at once if I recall.

4.5: This rating is occupied by Mami and Elisa. Known feats: Killed several clones of Avatar of Calamity's during the Wraith Arc, fought Homura and Homulily familiar in rebellion.

5: This rating is occupied by Fleche. I don't know anything about her feats.

6. This rating is occupied by Third Timeline Madoka and Tart. Known feats: Madoka casually performed 6-C feats, Tart I recalls she destroyed an entire witch labyrinth with one attack.

7.5: This rating is occupied by Tart ver.2. I also don't know much about her feats.

My problem with his calc is that they're completely scanless, making very hard to understand the feats in question.

I am not opposed to use them though, just that they need scans, so maybe I can also recalc them.

Never understood why the **** it becomes massively stronger from just flipping lmao.

Also off topic but the fact that none of the God Tiers of PMMM has some kind of Nonduality is insane.

Update: I finished rereading Tart Magica and I will listed some scaling relevant feats that I found.

Corbeau and Riz were pretty much equal in term of strength in their first confrontation. Riz was the better fighter but Corbeau abilities was even things out for her.

Fleche has AP rating 5 but she easily harmed Tart who has durability rating 7.

Elisa managed to physically match Tart, although this is just a sparing session.

Melissa has rating 2 for Durability but survives Corbeau attacks whose AP rating was 3.

Riz killed Lapin several times despite the latter is stronger than in term of AP. Riz is 3 while Lapin is 4.

Melissa survives an attack from Isabeau, who should be superior to Tart ver 2.

Isabeau labyrinth encompassed the entire France nation.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Oh right, forgot a detail.

Duality here is something like "X and non-X", this is why things like "space and time" or "fire and water" are not dualities unless the verse explicitly treats those as such, as a duality here is instead "water and non-water" or "time and non-time".

Thus in PMMM, unless the verse is very clear about this, the duality shouldn't be "Magical Girl and Witch", but "Magical Girl and Non-Magical Girl" or "Witch and Non-Witch".

Also, I think we can make an argument of magical girl system being a legit dual system. I will go on the detail once I return from work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Update: I finished rereading Tart Magica and I will listed some scaling relevant feats that I found.

Corbeau and Riz were pretty much equal in term of strength in their first confrontation. Riz was the better fighter but Corbeau abilities was even things out for her.

Fleche has AP rating 5 but she easily harmed Tart who has durability rating 7.

Elisa managed to physically match Tart, although this is just a sparing session.

Melissa has rating 2 for Durability but survives Corbeau attacks whose AP rating was 3.

Riz killed Lapin several times despite the latter is stronger than in term of AP. Riz is 3 while Lapin is 4.

Melissa survives an attack from Isabeau, who should be superior to Tart ver 2.

Isabeau labyrinth encompassed the entire France nation.

Is this to say the stats get contradicted in the manga?

Also, I think we can make an argument of magical girl system being a legit dual system. I will go on the detail once I return from work.

Madoka of all people lacking any form of Nonduality sounds insane tbh. Waiting for it though.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Is this to say the stats get contradicted in the manga?

I would say yes. Aside from the few instances I mentioned above, there are also several scenes where they main cast struggles against hordes of fodder witches. Although this bears another problem for us that if we really gonna get rid of using the in-verse scaling, most of Tart Magica characters will be unknown since there seems to be no visual feats that that be used as the basis of the scaling.

Madoka of all people lacking any form of Nonduality sounds insane tbh. Waiting for it though.

God Tier should have some sort of Noduality yes, Magical Girl and Witches are like two sides of the same coins. Neither of them will functions if one would disappear, kinda the reason why Madoka requires to conceptually created Wraiths in replacement of Witches. Madoka and Homura are stated they don't belong in any of those.

And in Tart Magica final battle, Isabeau has become invulnerable to anything that is within the magical girl system. She was only defeated after Tart completely detached herself from said system.

 

[Kwk258]

God Tier should have some sort of Noduality yes, Magical Girl and Witches are like two sides of the same coins. Neither of them will functions if one would disappear, kinda the reason why Madoka requires to conceptually created Wraiths in replacement of Witches. Madoka and Homura are stated they don't belong in any of those.

I wanted to confirm before that despair and hope are a duality.
However, from the description, "Magical Girl and Witch" are indeed similar.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Although this bears another problem for us that if we really gonna get rid of using the in-verse scaling, most of Tart Magica characters will be unknown since there seems to be no visual feats that that be used as the basis of the scaling.

Can't we use the tier of the weakest witches for them? They should at absolute least be capable of defeating those if they're Magical Girls after all.

God Tier should have some sort of Noduality yes, Magical Girl and Witches are like two sides of the same coins. Neither of them will functions if one would disappear, kinda the reason why Madoka requires to conceptually created Wraiths in replacement of Witches. Madoka and Homura are stated they don't belong in any of those.

And in Tart Magica final battle, Isabeau has become invulnerable to anything that is within the magical girl system. She was only defeated after Tart completely detached herself from said system.

That sounds better, ye.

 

[Kwk258]

That sounds better, ye.

I would like to ask for advice.
【Our worldview, dominated and domesticated by stories of human relationships, can be thought of as Aristotle’s world. The world depicted in Aristotle's theory was an anthropomorphic world. The four elements that make up all things, earth, air, fire, water, all move to fulfill their respective purposes. And the world is formed by the relationships amongst them.Similarly, the cognitive world of Homo sapiens is established upon relationships. Even the more scientific worldview reveals relationships as its hidden foundation and cannot escape the Aristotelian worldview. 】
Homo Magica has created endless interpersonal shutdowns embedded in time and space. If the world were like Aristotle, does Homo Magica have a Type 1 concept of manipulation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would like to ask for advice.
【Our worldview, dominated and domesticated by stories of human relationships, can be thought of as Aristotle’s world. The world depicted in Aristotle's theory was an anthropomorphic world. The four elements that make up all things, earth, air, fire, water, all move to fulfill their respective purposes. And the world is formed by the relationships amongst them.Similarly, the cognitive world of Homo sapiens is established upon relationships. Even the more scientific worldview reveals relationships as its hidden foundation and cannot escape the Aristotelian worldview. 】
Homo Magica has created endless interpersonal shutdowns embedded in time and space. If the world were like Aristotle, does Homo Magica have a Type 1 concept of manipulation.

Speak English, please.

I can barely understand what you're trying to say