Profile Deletion Requests Thread (New forum)

[Antvasima]

It's a 100+ issue character commitment out of the blue :v

Okay. Never mind then. I will remove it.

 

[Agnaa]

Kurzgesagt Narrator should be deleted.

Despite it being made by @DontTalkDT, this goes against our rules against creating profiles for YouTube/educational show hosts. Kurzgesagt is simply an educational YouTube series, with no story or canon between the videos, and no implication that the visuals are caused by some "narrator" character that's shared across all of them.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Kurszgesagt Narrator should be deleted.

Despite it being made by @DontTalkDT, this goes against our rules against creating profiles for YouTube/educational show hosts. Kurzgesagt is simply an educational YouTube series, with no story or canon between the videos, and no implication that the visuals are caused by some "narrator" character that's shared across all of them.

There was a thread for that though there wasn't much of a discussion.

 

[Robot972]

Oh probably forgot, sorry
I can the data in a sandbox if you want to

Thanks. Just drop em at the end of Sandbox2

 

[Agnaa]

There was a thread for that though there wasn't much of a discussion.

From a quick read of that, I think the profile will be fine if it exclusively sticks to StarStarSpace #36. I agree that it seems like the narrator from that seems to be causing these events, and that the source material seems like a fully fictional animated series, which would make it qualify, but I think the connection and the roping in of unusable main-channel Kurzgesagt content is far too tenuous.

But contrary to what DT said in that thread, the main concern isn't notability, but these three Editing Rules:

• Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, memes, YouTube personalities, reality television, talk shows, music videos, stage personas, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead. Take note that there is obviously a difference between a profile written as a joke, and the character itself being automatically funny.
• Take note that we are not experienced lawyers, so it is hard to precisely cover every angle, but to explain further, we are trying to keep the wiki reasonably streamlined and focused, to not allow in real people. Stage personas, such as YouTube and TV show hosts, tend to lack a 4th wall between them and the audience, and are not explicitly fictional in nature, as part of an actual story with a plot, regardless of special effects. They are real people who are affecting a behavioral change/acting out of character relative to their true personalities, but the setting is otherwise unchanged from reality and not fictional in nature. Characters are separate from the real actors portraying them, and are not just variations of themselves.
• It is also prohibited to create profiles for fictionalized stage personas for other reasons, whether these have their origins in music videos, educational programs, or otherwise: For one thing, it is inappropriate for largely underage wiki members to discuss which real people that would hypothetically be most capable of killing each other, and for another, a vast majority of these artists are extremely willing to file lawsuits against anybody who uses their brand for which they own intellectual property rights, regardless whether or not these are meant to be used for commercial or fair use purposes. It would be recommended and preferable to avoid adding such profiles to Joke Battles as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kurszgesagt Narrator should be deleted.

Despite it being made by @DontTalkDT, this goes against our rules against creating profiles for YouTube/educational show hosts. Kurzgesagt is simply an educational YouTube series, with no story or canon between the videos, and no implication that the visuals are caused by some "narrator" character that's shared across all of them.

You're wrong about that in two respects. First, it's actually financed and produced (at least in parts) by ARD and ZDF, meaning it should qualify on the same level as a TV show.
Second, due to the crossover with StarStarSpace (which can be considered canon, being also produced by ARD and ZDF and made by the same crew) the narrator is established as an actual entity and its demonstrations as real.
Given, I have not considered all demonstrations in the videos as caused by the narrator, but rather just those which have a reasonable indication of actually being caused by him.

 

[Agnaa]

Even TV shows that are in the same style don't count, such as Adam Ruins Everything (on TruTV). It's not about notability, it's about content.

I do not think that a crossover such as this is enough to rope in an entire series which does not meet our standards.

My bad for misunderstanding the scope of the issue at first; but I think the profile still needs to be heavily modified to remain on-site.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Thanks. Just drop em at the end of Sandbox2

Tllmbrg/SandboxAppSir

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DontTalkDT]

Even TV shows that are in the same style don't count, such as Adam Ruins Everything (on TruTV). It's not about notability, it's about content.

I do not think that a crossover such as this is enough to rope in an entire series which does not meet our standards.

My bad for misunderstanding the scope of the issue at first; but I think the profile still needs to be heavily modified to remain on-site.

By our crossover rules I see no reason to consider the crossover a separate canon, so if the character in the crossover is acceptable I don't see why taking feats of the other videos would not be.
In general, I also don't see the conflict with the three rules you quoted, as the narrator is not a human entity or a person existing outside the video. It does have barely a canonical appearance (technically not even that, the pic is mostly taken for the sake of having something) and no actual name. I.e. it's a purely fictional character.
The show occasionally also demonstrates some degree of continuity, such as the Midas touch video acknowledging the elephant's explode video in a fashion beyond simple "hey, look, here's another video". The setting is also fictional playing in a world populated by birds, which do various stuff and get involved in the phenomena demonstrated.

 

[Agnaa]

By our crossover rules I see no reason to consider the crossover a separate canon

That's because our crossover rules say nothing about what qualities make certain crossovers canon or not. It tells us what to do once certain levels of canonicity are known.

so if the character in the crossover is acceptable I don't see why taking feats of the other videos would not be.

We don't accept this reasoning for AVGN or the Channel Awesome characters. They're still disallowed despite the former having a movie and video games, and the latter having movies.

In general, I also don't see the conflict with the three rules you quoted, as the narrator is not a human entity or a person existing outside the video. It does have barely a canonical appearance (technically not even that, the pic is mostly taken for the sake of having something) and no actual name.

I don't think the idea of scaling a variety of educational visuals to the presenter of an educational series should be accepted just because the presenter is a disembodied voice who is given an animated form once or twice, rather than a person with special effects added in around them.

Another issue is that almost every Kurzgesagt video lacks an actual story (a requirement called out in those standards). The single one that does doesn't hold any connection to the other videos.

The show occasionally also demonstrates some degree of continuity, such as the Midas touch video acknowledging the elephant's explode video in a fashion beyond simple "hey, look, here's another video".

This is completely dwarfed by the lack of continuity in other areas. There will be a video about what will happen if X catastrophic event occurs, and there will be no ramifications of that in future videos, because they're just educational animations. The once-in-a-dozen video callback is not enough.

The setting is also fictional playing in a world populated by birds, which do various stuff and get involved in the phenomena demonstrated.

I don't think having a few literal author avatars in the form of birds makes things any better.

I'd plead anyone reading this to just watch one or two Kurzgesagt videos, or maybe even just scroll through their list of videos. They're a series of isolated educational animations. Adam Ruins Everything has more continuity than it.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that Agnaa seems to make a better case so far in this case, but it would be a shame to get rid of a page that might get teenagers and children interested in learning about science.

 

[Agnaa]

As I said, since StarStarSpace seems to be a series of animated comedic fictional shorts with stories and a consistent setting, I'd be fine with the page being reworked to only be about the entity there.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would that be acceptable to you, DontTalk?

 

[DontTalkDT]

By our crossover rules I see no reason to consider the crossover a separate canon

That's because our crossover rules say nothing about what qualities make certain crossovers canon or not. It tells us what to do once certain levels of canonicity are known.

so if the character in the crossover is acceptable I don't see why taking feats of the other videos would not be.

We don't accept this reasoning for AVGN or the Channel Awesome characters. They're still disallowed despite the former having a movie and video games, and the latter having movies.

I don't know those cases, so I can't comment on that. However, I question why you assume that the StarStarSpace Narrator is a different version than the other. As said, same production crew, same cooperation and there is no conflicts regarding continuity.

In general, I also don't see the conflict with the three rules you quoted, as the narrator is not a human entity or a person existing outside the video. It does have barely a canonical appearance (technically not even that, the pic is mostly taken for the sake of having something) and no actual name.

I don't think the idea of scaling a variety of educational visuals to the presenter of an educational series should be accepted just because the presenter is a disembodied voice who is animated once, rather than a person with special effects added in around them.

Another issue is that almost every Kurzgesagt video lacks an actual story. There are one or two that do, but these don't hold connection to others.

Being an educational visual presenter doesn't appear to be the problem according to our rules. The character should just be fully fictional, which this fulfils.

Kurzgesagt has at least as much story as Cueball.
That aside, we define story by our rules as: "A story includes a plot, a fictional setting, and having a defined canon. At the very least, the setting should be entirely fictional in nature, with no true bearing over the real world."
We have a defined canon and a fictional setting. We also occasionally have a plot. One can argue to a lesser extend than your average anime, but I think it has enough of it to be considered having a story.

The show occasionally also demonstrates some degree of continuity, such as the Midas touch video acknowledging the elephant's explode video in a fashion beyond simple "hey, look, here's another video".

This is completely dwarfed by the lack of continuity in other areas. There will be a video about what will happen if X catastrophic event occurs, and there will be no ramifications of that in future videos, because they're just educational animations. The once-in-a-dozen video callback is not enough.

I don't see how that is an argument, as we have no standard of needing some average amount of continuity per portion. Most SCP files stand alone and have no real connection to each other outside of happening in the same world.

The majority of xkcd comics have no indication of continuity either, but we still allow them.

Basically, we allow episodic shows that rarely demonstrate continuity.

The setting is also fictional playing in a world populated by birds, which do various stuff and get involved in the phenomena demonstrated.

I don't think having a few literal author avatars in the form of birds makes things any better.

Don't think the birds are author avatars. Not sure where you get that idea from.

Anyway, my point was that this isn't a slideshow, but a world in which things actually happen to beings.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay. Would that be acceptable to you, DontTalk?

Since I don't see why the feats of one series should be considered non-canon to the other, I don't see why we would restrict his feats. We can change the Origin from Kurzgesagt to StarStarSpace for all I care, but all the same feats should still apply as the crossover is canon to StarStarSpace. (and doesn't conflict with the scaling of either series, so by our crossover rules assuming equal power should be acceptable)

 

[Agnaa]

Welp, guess I gotta respond further then.

I don't know those cases, so I can't comment on that. However, I question why you assume that the StarStarSpace Narrator is a different version than the other. As said, same production crew, same cooperation and there is no conflicts regarding continuity.

Of course some production crew is going to be shared when you have a team's animator and voice actor coming on to star in a crossover. That happens with Rick and Morty or Family Guy crosses over with the Simpsons. It happens with novel authors write crossovers with other books, yet we don't consider JORGE JOESTAR canon to the rest of JJBA, afaik.

And of course there are no conflicts regarding continuity if there's no consistent setting for there to be continuity conflicts with!

Being an educational visual presenter doesn't appear to be the problem according to our rules. The character should just be fully fictional, which this fulfils.

If you're making this argument, I think there's a major loophole if something with less continuity and nigh-identical content to The Science Asylum would be allowed just because it's fully animated and the narrator isn't named.

Kurzgesagt has at least as much story as Cueball.

I 1,000,000,000% disagree, to the point where it's hard for me to respond. Kurzgesagt videos are just science education videos. Cueball's single comic is not that at all. The only way I can think to respond is to compare it to other things so, Kurzgesagt is 99% of the time equivalent to The Science Asylum, PBS Space Time, and CGP Grey in content. I think none of them should be allowed. While Cueball's single comic is equivalent to the more fictionalised Exurb1a videos such as Upsilon Dies Backwards, Bear and Goose at the End of Everything, and and then we'll be okay. I think all of them should be allowed (and I actually made a profile for the last of those).

If this does not help you spot the difference, I don't know what I could say that would.

We also occasionally have a plot.

There is a single video with a plot, which is an animated adaptation of an already existing short story.

I don't see how that is an argument, as we have no standard of needing some average amount of continuity per portion. Most SCP files stand alone and have no real connection to each other outside of happening in the same world.

It's an argument in response to your claim of there being demonstrations of continuity.

Also, not quite sure where to slot this in, but that rule about needing a story was written and used to exclude asdfmovie, which I am certain has more continuity/setting/story than Kurzgesagt's catalogue. Yet it still does not have enough to be allowed profiles, as they're unrelated tiny unconnected comedic shorts in a vague world with only occasional references serving as continuity.

The majority of xkcd comics have no indication of continuity either, but we still allow them.

I haven't read much xkcd but I don't think this is very true. There's many recurring characters that repeatedly act similarly.

Basically, we allow episodic shows that rarely demonstrate continuity.

At least those have stories for their episodes, instead of being just an animated rundown of the nutritional quality of milk.

Don't think the birds are author avatars. Not sure where you get that idea from.

In more meta videos (talking about merch they're selling, and their researching process) from even the first year of their channel you can clearly see this being the case. I think there may be some brief appearances implying that in other videos, but I've been watching most of their videos as they came out, so I can't greatly rattle off specifics like that off the top of my head.

Anyway, my point was that this isn't a slideshow, but a world in which things actually happen to beings.

My point is that there's no story. There's a world, because when you're animating a history of humanity you have to animate humans. When you're doing a comparison of the sizes of stars you need to animate stars. When you're discussing what would happen if all nukes were detonated at once, you'd draw that in comparison to Earth, since that's what people are familiar with.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Before I get to all of that, let me ask: Do you have any counterargument against all of the narrator's feats from Kurzgesagt videos applying to the StarStarSpace variant?
We allow crossover scaling of such a nature, if consistent. I think the feats are overall consistent here, so yeah... If we just end up with the same profile under different origin we can end the debate right here.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd still have two concerns. First, the information being too tenuous to justify a canon crossover; two series' crews come together and work on one episode together, and then part ways should imo not join their canons together forever, and I provided multiple examples of that in my last post. Secondly, even if we were to treat them as mutually canon, I think that Kurzgesagt's stuff not qualifying overrides that, such as with the AVGN example. The part that's against our rules shouldn't be indexed.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'd still have two concerns. First, the information being too tenuous to justify a canon crossover; two series' crews come together and work on one episode together, and then part ways should imo not join their canons together forever, and I provided multiple examples of that in my last post. Secondly, even if we were to treat them as mutually canon, I think that Kurzgesagt's stuff not qualifying overrides that, such as with the AVGN example. The part that's against our rules shouldn't be indexed.

I disagree for two simple reasons:

a) Kurzgesagt has a canon and a continuity as I already demonstrated. The narrator has consistent feats as well. As such it has all it needs for scaling. There is no reason to disregard the feats, as they are still canon. The existence of feats is not bound to story, after all. We simply have no rule of that nature and I see no reason to have one either, as scaling canons to each other that way can't generally be abused as at least one notable series needs to actually exist. Going by existent rules, this is simply no argument.

b) We even allow this scaling for one-sided canons. I still think we should consider it a full canon crossover, since there is absolutely no reason not to do so, but even if we consider it canon to just StarStarSpace the scaling is still viable as it fits to all depictions of all involved characters.

 

[Agnaa]

Welp, I feel like I've responded to those ideas in ways which you haven't responded to (frankly, your points in this most recent post didn't seem to be responding to the points I brought up), and it's getting really late to me. I'll leave it for everyone else to discuss.

 

[Pikaman]

Adam Ruins Everything (on TruTV).

Wait we wouldn’t/don’t allow this show? I don’t really see why not

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that DontTalk makes good arguments above. As long as this is a purely fictional character, it should be fine to feature it.

 

[Antvasima]

Wait we wouldn’t/don’t allow this show? I don’t really see why not

It's an exaggerated stage persona of a real world human being. It is not purely fictional. By that logic we could feature Daily Show hosts. We have to draw a line somewhere.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Spoiler: For the sake of shortening things

Well, if we won't reach a conclusion now, then I guess I should reply to the point I had pushed off in hope of getting somewhere fast.

I don't know those cases, so I can't comment on that. However, I question why you assume that the StarStarSpace Narrator is a different version than the other. As said, same production crew, same cooperation and there is no conflicts regarding continuity.

Of course some production crew is going to be shared when you have a team's animator and voice actor coming on to star in a crossover. That happens with Rick and Morty or Family Guy crosses over with the Simpsons. It happens with novel authors write crossovers with other books, yet we don't consider JORGE JOESTAR canon to the rest of JJBA, afaik.

And of course there are no conflicts regarding continuity if there's no consistent setting for there to be continuity conflicts with!

Difference is that the general worlds and scalings of those things aren't consistent to the main canon of them.

The same can't be said here. There is no indication that the crossover happens in something that would be non-canon to either continuity.

By our canon page "The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page." By this the situation should be acceptable.

The fact that the settings are unlikely to be in conflict of each other is not really an argument. I'm pretty sure that the burden of proof on a work by the author to be non-canon to another work of the author it does crossover with is on you.

Being an educational visual presenter doesn't appear to be the problem according to our rules. The character should just be fully fictional, which this fulfils.

If you're making this argument, I think there's a major loophole if something with less continuity and nigh-identical content to The Science Asylum would be allowed just because it's fully animated and the narrator isn't named.

I have a feeling a relevant difference here is the fact that Kurzgesagt has the validity of a show produced by TV stations, while that youtube series does not.

But, assuming it was able to meet the relevance requirements in that regard, then I don't see a reason to not allow it either. A fictional character in a notable fictional world using supernatural powers for relevant and consistent feats sounds valid for tiering, even if it is a primarily educational show.

Kurzgesagt has at least as much story as Cueball.

I 1,000,000,000% disagree, to the point where it's hard for me to respond. Kurzgesagt videos are just science education videos. Cueball's single comic is not that at all. The only way I can think to respond is to compare it to other things so, Kurzgesagt is 99% of the time equivalent to The Science Asylum, PBS Space Time, and CGP Grey in content. I think none of them should be allowed. While Cueball's single comic is equivalent to the more fictionalised Exurb1a videos such as Upsilon Dies Backwards, Bear and Goose at the End of Everything, and and then we'll be okay. I think all of them should be allowed (and I actually made a profile for the last of those).

If this does not help you spot the difference, I don't know what I could say that would.

Cueballs single comic, in total quantity, has less story. It also, likewise, is essentially a "What If" scenario. Basically, you're arguing that something needs a relative percentage of story instead of an absolute amount. I don't think that's really the rule here.

That aside I don't know your examples, so meh. Generally, I'm willing to apply the same standards. I.e. fictional characters, fictional world, superpowers, some degree of continuity all balanced by a high amount of notability.

We also occasionally have a plot.

There is a single video with a plot, which is an animated adaptation of an already existing short story.

That's not quite true. Several videos feature what can be considered a plot. Videos about how civilization develops in fictional scenarios are also stories. That's why we can have things like RPG verses that are purely world-building. E.g. Following the struggle of society as over month the moon is dropping towards Earth, told in third person perspective, is a narrative even if it is a narrative for the sake of answering a question.

I don't see how that is an argument, as we have no standard of needing some average amount of continuity per portion. Most SCP files stand alone and have no real connection to each other outside of happening in the same world.

It's an argument in response to your claim of there being demonstrations of continuity.

Also, not quite sure where to slot this in, but that rule about needing a story was written and used to exclude asdfmovie, which I am certain has more continuity/setting/story than Kurzgesagt's catalogue. Yet it still does not have enough to be allowed profiles, as they're unrelated tiny unconnected comedic shorts in a vague world with only occasional references serving as continuity.

Asdf movie has less consistent feats, less content and less official notability than Kurzgesagt. In fact, what a narrative story progression is concerned, something like the "Do a flop"-guy is probably the only character that has comparable story to Kurzgesagt and if that character came from a TV series or something I think we could allow it without problems.

The majority of xkcd comics have no indication of continuity either, but we still allow them.

I haven't read much xkcd but I don't think this is very true. There's many recurring characters that repeatedly act similarly.

The narrator is also a recurring character that acts similarly. Same for the bird people for that matter who are about as consistent to each other as most xkcd characters.

If being reoccurring in an xkcd way qualifies, than Kurzgesagt should too.

At least those have stories for their episodes, instead of being just an animated rundown of the nutritional quality of milk.

The What If scenario's of Kurzgesagt are equally stories of episode length.

In more meta videos (talking about merch they're selling, and their researching process) from even the first year of their channel you can clearly see this being the case. I think there may be some brief appearances implying that in other videos, but I've been watching most of their videos as they came out, so I can't greatly rattle off specifics like that off the top of my head.

That doesn't apply to a vast majority of the birds, I'm pretty sure. And even if: That doesn't make them author avatars. Why the makers put them in has no bearings on the role in the world. They don't represent the author or its actions.

Anyway, my point was that this isn't a slideshow, but a world in which things actually happen to beings.[/B][/I]

My point is that there's no story. There's a world, because when you're animating a history of humanity you have to animate humans. When you're doing a comparison of the sizes of stars you need to animate stars. When you're discussing what would happen if all nukes were detonated at once, you'd draw that in comparison to Earth, since that's what people are familiar with.

As said, there are plenty "What If"-scenarios which can be considered stories. And in the newer videos we basically always have the bird people do things beyond just explanation stuff, even if it is in the background.

 

[Antvasima]

As I said above, DontTalk makes sense to me here. The page can probably stay then.

 

[Jinx666]

Okay. Never mind then. I will remove it.

Dont agree with this deletion at all on Spirals page.
There were references to showings of the AP stat justifications, countless scans for the Powers and Abilities, Hard work and research was put into it, not just a respect thread, and theres literally the vast majority of Marvel/DC pages with no references whatsoever (just scans). Spiral is constantly viewed as Psylockes archrival, and a major point in her backstory. However im not someone who has read all the comics, and feels its really extreme to be required to do so just to make sure i reference absolutely every single power that people shouldnt be in contest with on a character like Spiral.

I've been told theres some massive cleanup project going on with Marvel, that will take ages, which hasn't at all been alluded to in the Verse page (Would be convenient for people like me to know not to bother making the page if its just going to be deleted because only mine will be held to higher standards. Wastes my time and effort). Its not like 1 extra page suddenly triples the work load, nor is Spiral of all characters going to be used for scaling or the precedent of future Marvel profiles.

Not even a page like Spiderman has any references. I'd figure a character like that would take major priority. Its unfair to delete just my page for this reason but leave every other immediate page like this.

I'd like it if this deletion could be reverted please.

 

[Antvasima]

Dont agree with this deletion at all on Spirals page.
There were references to showings of the AP stat justifications, countless scans for the Powers and Abilities, Hard work and research was put into it, not just a respect thread, and theres literally the vast majority of Marvel/DC pages with no references whatsoever (just scans). Spiral is constantly viewed as Psylockes archrival, and a major point in her backstory. However im not someone who has read all the comics, and feels its really extreme to be required to do so just to make sure i reference absolutely every single power that people shouldnt be in contest with on a character like Spiral.

I've been told theres some massive cleanup project going on with Marvel, that will take ages, which hasn't at all been alluded to in the Verse page (Would be convenient for people like me to know not to bother making the page if its just going to be deleted because only mine will be held to higher standards. Wastes my time and effort). Its not like 1 extra page suddenly triples the work load, nor is Spiral of all characters going to be used for scaling or the precedent of future Marvel profiles.

Not even a page like Spiderman has any references. I'd figure a character like that would take major priority. Its unfair to delete just my page for this reason but leave every other immediate page like this.

I'd like it if this deletion could be reverted please.

Well, the page was deemed too unreliable, and @Confluctor and @The_Impress simply did not have the time available to properly clean it up.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Dont agree with this deletion at all on Spirals page.
There were references to showings of the AP stat justifications, countless scans for the Powers and Abilities, Hard work and research was put into it, not just a respect thread, and theres literally the vast majority of Marvel/DC pages with no references whatsoever (just scans). Spiral is constantly viewed as Psylockes archrival, and a major point in her backstory. However im not someone who has read all the comics, and feels its really extreme to be required to do so just to make sure i reference absolutely every single power that people shouldnt be in contest with on a character like Spiral.

I've been told theres some massive cleanup project going on with Marvel, that will take ages, which hasn't at all been alluded to in the Verse page (Would be convenient for people like me to know not to bother making the page if its just going to be deleted because only mine will be held to higher standards. Wastes my time and effort). Its not like 1 extra page suddenly triples the work load, nor is Spiral of all characters going to be used for scaling or the precedent of future Marvel profiles.

Not even a page like Spiderman has any references. I'd figure a character like that would take major priority. Its unfair to delete just my page for this reason but leave every other immediate page like this.

I'd like it if this deletion could be reverted please.

One of the main issues with your page was using power null for AP IIRC... also using High 6-C characters for scaling wall level durability

 

[Jinx666]

Well, the page was deemed too unreliable, and @Confluctor and @The_Impress simply did not have the time available to properly clean it up.

Reliable how so? I was discussing this with Confluctor and he seemed to be fine with leaving it as is, not going for a deletion, but what about the tons of other profile pages that need cleaning up? Not like Spiral is even difficult compared to tons of other characters who appear far more frequently and relevantly.

Why is only my page getting the deletion when theres loads like that? It's not like its a necessary clean up because references are clearly not the enforced minimum requirement. This just feels like its excluding contributions from members that arent part of the staff.

And that doesnt respond to my question on why this isn't listed on the Marvel, or DC page that every page that wants to stay uploaded has to reference absolutely every single showing of power and ability the character has shown? Its incredibly inconvenient.

 

[Jinx666]

One of the main issues with your page was using power null for AP IIRC... also using High 6-C characters for scaling wall level durability

I wasn't using High 6-C characters. I never officially used the high 6-C for durability and only mentioned those durability feats as a means for 'possibly higher'. Im aware that Marvel is an incosistent mess at this point. I never rated Spiral High 6-C at all.

Characters like Psylocke are Wall level durability with 7-B mutant ability.
The Power null was an added bit, not the only justification for her magic AP which was overwhelming Psylockes mind and psyche (The thing that literally contains her mutant power), but it was able to neutralise the power of an Omega level Mutant like Magneto, which surely seemed power based given it was only a temporary measure. As if Spiral had to hold it.

The main issue from what ive been told was because i didnt reference absolutely every section in the powers and abilities, despite providing scans (which is what is sufficing for the majority of other marvel pages).

Im fine with listing spiral as unknown for her magic capabiltiy if thats really a problem, but shes still a really unique character for a profile and don't see why only this is suddenly being deleted over the countless other profiles. Even ones like spiderman which should obviously take priority in this referencing so that it can set a precedent.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I wasn't using High 6-C characters. I never rated Spiral High 6-C at all. Characters like Psylocke are Wall level durability with 7-B mutant ability.
The Power null was an added bit, not the only justification for her magic AP which was overwhelming Psylockes mind and psyche (The thing that literally contains her mutant power), but it was able to neutralise the power of an Omega level Mutant like Magneto.

Im fine with listing spiral as unknown for her magic capabiltiy if thats really a problem, but shes still a really unique character for a profile and don't see why only this is suddenly being deleted over the countless other profiles. Even ones like spiderman which should obviously take priority in this referencing so that it can set a precedent.

I remember quite clearly looking through the various character links to check if anything was up and coming across a High 6-C flat. Also I'm pretty sure Juggernaut is at bare minimum Spider-man tier who I do remember was in your justifications.

That's mind Manipulation aka dura neg...

Maybe you should look at the issue difference between these files, Spider-Man has thousands, if not tens of thousands of appearances, he's not going to be done in ANY decent amount of time, and to assume so is asinine at best, personally, if I was unfucking a verse as apsolutely massive as Marvel I wouldn't want anything more added to an already Galaxy-sized work list.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's wait for Impress and Confluctor before responding any further.

 

[Jinx666]

I remember quite clearly looking through the various character links to check if anything was up and coming across a High 6-C flat. Also I'm pretty sure Juggernaut is at bare minimum Spider-man tier who I do remember was in your justifications.

That's mind Manipulation aka dura neg...

Maybe you should look at the issue difference between these files, Spider-Man has thousands, if not tens of thousands of appearances, he's not going to be done in ANY decent amount of time, and to assume so is asinine at best, personally, if I was unfucking a verse as apsolutely massive as Marvel I wouldn't want anything more added to an already Galaxy-sized work list.

Juggernaut was transformed into a baby at the time. Baby Juggernaut. And Juggernaut isnt Spiderman tier, even i know that, not regular spiderman at least.

Not really when its sourced from Spirals magic and its directly affecting a Telepath, whose AP is literally sourced through their mind. Spiral is constantly shown and referred to as Psylockes equal.

Spiderman isnt the only example, theres tons of pages without as much showings as him, but I would imagine that you dont delete 1 page specifically but leave the rest at an 'unsuitable standard' in this wikis terms, without any informing of whats going on at all.

I wouldnt have bothered making the page if i knew about what was going on and what the new minimum was. It just seems blatantly unfair to hold my pages to this standard while the majority are just as or less so 'backed up' as mine, without any sort of pre-announcement or informal that this was how it was going to be judged. So forgive me if this doesnt sit right with me.

I dont see either why if Spiderman is such a massive fix no one wants to get to, that someone like Spiral is on any equal term.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's wait for Impress and Confluctor before responding any further.

 

[Jinx666]

I was answering the other guy and read your message after cause it didn't load immediately.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Confluctor]

As I spoke to Jinx on his wall, the page is made from Respect thread which most of the time only takes into consideration the high end feats and not the low ends, which makes it harder to see what the character can do consistently. 9-B AP isn't the issue, the issue is using hax for the other parts of AP, and then also giving a tier 7 striking strength which is basically... Well, wrong. Aside from the four refs in Ap section, it lacked references. And the format was wrong. There are 15 different comics titled X-Men. So you know...

I told Jinx on his wall that I can try adding references by hunting it down, however, it is nothing something I actually want to do - but since it's deleted, it might as well stay deleted. We have been trying to fix shit ton of old pages and if we start letting more pages like this come, our workload increases drastically.

I recommended that if he wants to create a comic page, he can just consult one of us and I will be more than happy to extend a helping hand.

Perhaps before deleting it, you could have turned it into a sandbox or something. Would have been a better option. But since it's gone, I would rather it stays gone.

If anyone wants to recreate it, I would recommend that they read the comics themselves. Especially since the scans on the RT are pretty low quality - other sites like RCO has updated scans with clear art work and stuff.


Jinx said they weren't aware of the standard for comic files like refs. Maybe we can add a note on all comic verse pages to list how new pages should be created and what sort of references format should be used. We currently use "Series Name Vol number Issue Number". That's essentially the standard format for references. On some old ones I have used year, but volume is much better and consistent with marvel and DC wiki which we use often for reading orders.

 

[Jinx666]

I used the Respect Thread to mainly compile Spiral's feats, and ignored all the feats like subduing Hercules which were clearly inconsistent. As such, Spirals scaling was based on Psylocke, the character considered to be Psylockes' rival, who is 7-B with her psionics that Spiral was able to overpower. She was definitely 9-B physically, i dont think theres any contesting that, and Magic may have been sketchy but nonetheless i provided reasoning as to why i scaled her to such.
Marvel is littered with antifeats, and thats usually due to marvels concept abt not giving af about powerscaling and 'the writer decides who wins the fight' mentality. Not helpful with scaling, and i dont see what antifeats Spiral necessarily has? Especially when shes in the same region of Marvel as characters like Storm and Jean (much more inconsistent characters)

Yes, but alas, one page in Spiral isnt anywhere near close to a huge addition to your workload, when this workload you're taking upon yourself is massive as is. And negligible. Spiral isnt going to be anywhere near your most difficult character and i don't think this should be treated as much more of a burden than what you're making it out to be when its just one page addition that provides scans at the very least. I compromised and tracked down refs for you, even correcting them when you said they werent formatted right, and alas this happened. It doesnt sit right with me that the page i worked hard to make has now been deleted when it really isnt any trouble at all compared to the current state of Marvel/DC. And Spiral would in no way be the page that people want to base future marvel profiles off of.

Even if i did that, that would still be you taking on the same workload you were setting out to make. Which was apparently a problem. I dont feel its right for the current state of the Marvel pages on this wiki, with no prior disclaimer, to stop me from making pages if they dont provide the references, but still hold legitimate scans. Like most marvel pages do.
Id also like to bring up the necessity of references for characters who...really arent that subjective or limited in their tiering at all. Spiral isnt some abstract Marvel entity. Who exactly, taking into an average scale of knowledge in Marvel, is gonna take issue with Spiral and her mere power/ability listings over someone like Beyonder or Eternity?

The scans werent so low quality that they werent readable, and most of them were fine. I dont reference like that, but again, im failing to see why Spiral had ot get deleted, but tons of scan-based pages, even among the most relevant characters arent prioritised to fix up/stay undeleted. Im obviously not gonna sit here and protest the majority marvel verse pages to be wiped, but it still does not sit right that only my page is being unfairly treated this way, especially when i had no prior warning.

At this point i feel it should be a courtesy, because its made me feel like people who dont have any staff or relevance to this wiki can't get justice. When Ant was looking at it, even adding his own categories, he didn't look at that page and think it was deletion worthy. It just obviously doesnt hold to the high standards that the pages suddenly need. And quite honestly, im skeptical that every Marvel page will be up to that quality at all, especially when Scans are there for better convenience. I understand references are good when context can be misinterpreted, but that wouldnt be present in a character who minimally appears like Spiral, as if she was facing a weakened Psylocke through every encounter they've had.

So while you guys might be fine that the page is gone, I'm not, because i made it, and made sure to write it at what is clearly the uncontested norm for Marvel profiles right now. Its me whose being robbed of my effort, not you, so idk why that doesnt matter.

It should definitely be acted upon for the future. This just seems out of nowhere, but i'd rather the Spiral page gets reverted back as your last acceptable marvel profile of the scan quality, and made an example of how situations like this should be handled and avoided. This should be something made apparent and bold, so that people know that Marvel profiles are currently getting a major revamp, so ppl dont waste effort.

 

[Dereck03]

Self Evident

 

[The_Impress]

Character's downplayed to 7-B off of this supposed rivalry off ONE RUN when she's pretty consistent at High 6-C with powers otherwise, and using whataboutisms on other files is inconsiderate of the fact it's 600 ******* files, we've already tried doing major referencing and updating projects like Daredevil, Deadpool and Iron Man which was taxing as ****, and no, it's still adding to the workload since I'd have to scour 100 more issues, and ****, Spiral is a 90s character.

Meanwhile page poster admits to not having read her appearances fully, and for some reason acts like we don't list the references thing very bluntly in Powerscaling Rules page, hell it's site standard now.

Jinx if you want we can retrieve the source code for you to shift it into your sandbox to fix up the issues stated, but the page in its current state I completely disagree being up.