Removing Power of the Verse from Verse pages

[Antvasima]

I have mixed thoughts but will go over some ideas. While I do agree that it's redundant with just looking up the many linked pages, redundancy in itself isn't harmful and it could potentially save people the trouble of looking up a whole bunch of profiles. Our calculations page also often points out where various scaling chains starts. Though it's worth noting that calculations doesn't cover High 3-A and above same with Infinite speed/Lifting strength and above. Though, most verses that have those often have a "Verse explanation blog" that could make up for that.

And yeah, calling verses "Weak, Very Powerful, or somewhere in between" are always controversial. A verse being called weak just because common foot soldiers are Tier 8, which is still crazy for human soldier standards and Tier 6 god tiers. Likewise, being called, "A very powerful verse" due to the existence of a Tier 4 weapon. That's another thing, some verses are too focused on just the very strongest character/weapon when describing weak or powerful. Some verses have uber strong god tiers when everyone and everything else is normal level. Other verses also may peak at tier 8, but the catch is basically everyone is that strong, even a bunch of random civilians. So at minimum, being called "Weak or Powerful or anywhere in between" I agree should be removed as opposed to listing tiers, speed ratings, list of notable hax abilities, ect. But calculations already cover tiers and other stats. And High 3-A and above if any + walls of haxes can also be covered in a "Explanations" section or an Explanation blog post.

This seems reasonable to me. I also do not think that subjective "this verse is weak" or "this verse is strong" descriptions should remain.

I do agree that "Powers of the Verse" is kinda redundant as it is, however, if I was to make it useful, I'd complete change it.

What would I change it to? Well, I think I'd use the entire section to list who people scale to, so that users can figure out scaling chains without having to use guess work or hunting through pages to find which character has the feat explanation.

I'd format it something like:

Character A (MHS+): Character B. Character C, Character D etc.
Character A (High 6-A): Character B, Character C,, Character D etc.

I would also rather rework these sections (including our official instructions for them) to become much more useful for a summary overview for our visitors, rather than remove them altogether.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

Get ready to be decimated by Ant and his bureaucrat army

Also, it is unnecessary to jab at me almost any chance that you get. I think that I am trying to be nice in general.

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't really care about it, it can stay as it can go. I agree that it's redundant and doing lists of accepted calcs is just better, and it can be a nuisance and sort of repetitive to write, as the terms end up being always the same I'd say.

On the other hand I don't see it as harmful in any particular way, it's a summary.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03

What do you think about this?

Gave my comment above DarkDragonMedus.

I don't mind if it goes, it's just a summary. Just that if it goes the rest of the verse page just needs to be updated to cover anything lacking (which is obvious)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I stated above, I think that the section can potentially provide very useful information, but agree about that the current format is not very useful.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't really care about it, it can stay as it can go. I agree that it's redundant and doing lists of accepted calcs is just better, and it can be a nuisance and sort of repetitive to write, as the terms end up being always the same I'd say.

On the other hand I don't see it as harmful in any particular way, it's a summary.

More or less my position on the section as well. Not really doing any harm but they aren't necessary or even really additive, either. They are the empty calories of the verse page, and I won't miss them if it is decided to remove them.

I don't have any strong opinions about revising or revitalizing them- I don't think it would offer any substantial improvement to the quality of the pages but if people want it I don't see any good reason to stand in the way of that, either- it wouldn't be worse than what we have currently, by any means.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well, as I stated above, I think that the section can potentially provide very useful information, but agree about that the current format is not very useful.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my comment. It can provide information in some way, we just need to change the standard. Probably can make it an optional thing?

 

[CloverDragon03]

At the very least, these subjective descriptors of "this verse is weak/strong/formidable/unimpressive/etc." should go

Neutral on the removal of "Power of the Verse" as a whole

 

[LordTracer]

I do agree that reworking the section into a more proper and less subjective “Scaling” section or something along those lines would be more useful than outright removing it.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I would like to rework the section, but I think we run into an of just general bias and potential clash of how a verse works. Usually or ideally verses have more than one supporter and supporters don't always agree with each other on things, not to mention as the section is named currently it's hard to use it in a way that is "objective". Say we remove the mention of statistics on the section and only allow powers and abilities to be listed alongside other aspects of it that could make it "strong". You would run into the issue of not even abilities have an "objective" potency and what not, then that needs to be explained...

Leading to verse pages like SAO's

Even then, pulling an example from FC/OC wiki, most of the verses are from amateur writers, you would expect them to know a verse because they are the writer, but for fanon verses I've seen edits come and go on verse pages that don't get noticed until a while later, mostly because who cares about the verse page.

I'd love to keep it around, but I don't really see a better alternative that doesn't already exist. The calculations section is there, as well as the explanations section.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Most power of the verse sections I've seen just say that the verse is strong or weak depending on what whoever is writing it feels is relative which is hard to objectively gauge when AP gaps within Tiers are already beyond finite multipliers by Tier 2. It also feels redundant to list off the tiers when the Calculations section usually ends up repeating them but is much more informative by actually showing what feat places the verse there. I think Black Clover's format where they list Calculations and Scaling notes in tabbers underneath their power of the verse heading is more optimal.

 

[Psychomaster35]

To be fair, not every page is made on the wiki, which would include higher tier characters who don't have profiles for their verse. It would still be worth mentioning them to show off their peak.

Take Henry Stickmin, for example. The Chaos Containment Center has yet to have a profile, but it does mention their 2-C feat (Which only scales to them) in that section.

 

[Antvasima]

I do agree that reworking the section into a more proper and less subjective “Scaling” section or something along those lines would be more useful than outright removing it.

Exactly.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, it is unnecessary to jab at me almost any chance that you get. I think that I am trying to be nice in general.

It was a joke, Ant. I didn't mean anything by it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies about overreacting then.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, do any of you have any concrete suggestions for how we can gradually rework the "Power of the Verse" sections into "Scaling" sections, as Colonel_Krukov and LordTracer suggested?

We would obviously need to add an official instruction text to the following page, for example.

Standard Format for Verse Pages

Insert a picture of the Verse at the very top, just above the Summary section. For pictures that are wider horizontally, the alignment is to the center, and the maximum size is 590px, in order to fit in tablet screens. For pictures that are longer vertically, or are of similar size in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ByAsura]

I'm on the side of removing it due to being kind of a hassle, but I don't mind if it stays.

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyway, do any of you have any concrete suggestions for how we can gradually rework the "Power of the Verse" sections into "Scaling" sections, as Colonel_Krukov and LordTracer suggested?

We would obviously need to add an official instruction text to the following page, for example.

Standard Format for Verse Pages

Insert a picture of the Verse at the very top, just above the Summary section. For pictures that are wider horizontally, the alignment is to the center, and the maximum size is 590px, in order to fit in tablet screens. For pictures that are longer vertically, or are of similar size in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I don't think it needs to be reworked into it, I think we can remove PotV and add a Scaling section (optional, to begin with, so that we aren't forced to add it to every verse ever) as separate actions.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, do any of you have any concrete suggestions for how we can gradually rework the "Power of the Verse" sections into "Scaling" sections, as Colonel_Krukov and LordTracer suggested?

We would obviously need to add an official instruction text to the following page, for example.

Standard Format for Verse Pages

Insert a picture of the Verse at the very top, just above the Summary section. For pictures that are wider horizontally, the alignment is to the center, and the maximum size is 590px, in order to fit in tablet screens. For pictures that are longer vertically, or are of similar size in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Something like this?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think it needs to be reworked into it, I think we can remove PotV and add a Scaling section (optional, to begin with, so that we aren't forced to add it to every verse ever) as separate actions.

I think that also works, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Something like this?

That is not quite what I had in mind, but thank you for helping out.

Of course, if other staff members think that it is a good idea, please mention it here.

 

[Reiner04]

That is not quite what I had in mind, but thank you for helping out.

Smth along the line but may not be exact is I think Ben 10 verse (Reboot and Classic) has, both have explanation for scaling chain in the Notes of Calculation section (along with all other stuff). In the following format:

• Classic regular aliens such Wildvine and Stinkfly scale to 6.212682 Exatons (High 6-A) via scaling physically with other aliens like Cannonbolt and regular Talpedean individuals, possibly 1.823928071 Zettatons (Low 5-B) due to scaling to Upgrade who should be comparable to other individuals of the Galvanic Mechamorph species. Stronger regular Aliens such as Four Arms and Diamonhead heavely upscale from regular ones.
• Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse normal aliens scale to 62.12682 Exatons (5-C) Moon level, possibly 18.23928071 Zettatons (Low 5-B) via scaling to UAF Vilgax who had grown 10x stronger than his OS self.
• Stronger characters of Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse like D'Void and Full Sized Humungousaur scale to 310.6341 Exatons (5-C) Moon level, possibly 91.19640355 Zettatons (5-B) due to Humungousaur's strength growing alongside its size.
• Aliens that scale to Ultimate Aggregor scales to the combined power and durability of Aggregor, Ra'ad, Galapagus, P'andor, Bivalvan and Andreas via Ultimate Aggregor being a combination of all of them, reaching to 434.88774 Exatons (5-C) Moon level, possibly 127.67496497 Zettatons (5-B)
• Aliens that scale to Ultimate Ultimate Humungousaur scale to 10x the earlier value, reaching 3.106341 Zettatons (Low 5-B), possibly 911.9640355 Zettatons (5-B)
• Omniverse Kevin 11 is at least 17x Classic characters for his AP 105.615594 Exatons (Low 5-B), possibly 31.006777207 Zettatons (Low 5-B) as he visually has the powers of at least seven combat-applicable Aliens. However he also has at least 19x Durability based on him having Ball Weevil and The Worst’s powers, 118.040958 Exatons (Low 5-B), possibly 34.654633349 Zettatons (Low 5-B) and the scaling chain follows.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Something like this?

No offense but I don’t see how this is any different from the issues DMUA raised.

I don't think it needs to be reworked into it, I think we can remove PotV and add a Scaling section (optional, to begin with, so that we aren't forced to add it to every verse ever) as separate actions.

I’m fine with this, makes sense.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don't think it needs to be reworked into it, I think we can remove PotV and add a Scaling section (optional, to begin with, so that we aren't forced to add it to every verse ever) as separate actions.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this is a quite massive undertaking, and my available time is considerably more limited nowadays. Would any of you be willing to help organise and apply such a project in practice?

This example seems to be a good pattern to follow:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/removing-power-of-the-verse-from-verse-pages.166003/post-6437243

 

[Vzearr]

I can help out, though I'm not staff, unsure if I can comment here.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Well, this is a quite massive undertaking, and my available time is considerably more limited nowadays. Would any of you be willing to help organise and apply such a project in practice?

This example seems to be a good pattern to follow:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/removing-power-of-the-verse-from-verse-pages.166003/post-6437243

Since ive never undertook something like this, I’d like to ask what exactly would entail organizing and applying these changes.
I have a lot more time on my hands but I’m just curious what the responsibility would exactly be.

 

[Antvasima]

I can help out, though I'm not staff, unsure if I can comment here.

Thank you very much for helping out.

Since ive never undertook something like this, I’d like to ask what exactly would entail organizing and applying these changes.
I have a lot more time on my hands but I’m just curious what the responsibility would exactly be.

Well, we would first need to modify the instructions in the following page, and then replace the "Power of the Verse" sections with initially empty "Scaling" sections in all of the verse pages in our wiki that do not explain the scaling chains or system for the characters within them.

Standard Format for Verse Pages

Insert a picture of the Verse at the very top, just above the Summary section. For pictures that are wider horizontally, the alignment is to the center, and the maximum size is 590px, in order to fit in tablet screens. For pictures that are longer vertically, or are of similar size in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Reiner04]

Thank you very much for helping out.

Well, we would first need to modify the instructions in the following page, and then replace the "Power of the Verse" sections with initially empty "Scaling" sections in all of the verse pages in our wiki that do not explain the scaling chains or system for the characters within them.

Standard Format for Verse Pages

Insert a picture of the Verse at the very top, just above the Summary section. For pictures that are wider horizontally, the alignment is to the center, and the maximum size is 590px, in order to fit in tablet screens. For pictures that are longer vertically, or are of similar size in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Will it not being better to notify users via some sort of announcement or smth and ask them to update existing verse pages they know/follow to as per instructions that are being laid out in this thread (obviously in free time)? Who would know scaling chain better if not supporters.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, wouldn't the easiest solution here be to simply disallow usage of subjective "this worse is very strong/weak", "this verse is somewhat strong/weak", et cetera statements within the "Power of the Verse" sections via an official instruction rule? The rest of the information within those sections does not seem to cause any harm and is likely recurrently useful for visitors who want a quick overview.

We can still add a new "Scaling" section to our standard layout instructions though.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Format_for_Verse_Pages

 

[DMUA]

There's also just a general lack of quality to a lot of these power of the verse pages, people don't really care about making a redundant section good, or they often forget to update it. If the power of the verse page is still showing the characters are several tiers higher than their actual ratings (As I've seen a few times with myself and brought up in the case of RWBY earlier in the thread), then it's just not serving it's purpose, and it's a fairly common trend to just forget about the verse page while combing through all the pages entailed.

The proposition of a scaling section would provide a lot more utility by directly pointing to where something comes from and how it branches out to other characters while still getting the job done. It technically doesn't list abilities, but... Abilities shouldn't be listed in extreme brevity, they should be properly explained so you know what exactly it means in a given context. There's a huge difference between the water manipulation of Leviathan and the water manipulation of Tier Harribel, and that's just control of a given substance, much less fundamentally reality altering things like Law Manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

But isn't it more useful and easily applied to simply instruct our members to keep those sections updated, to avoid subjective statements, etc., meaning to allegorically renovate the house in a sensible manner, rather than tear down the entire building to build a new one?

 

[Armorchompy]

But the purpose of the section is to make those subjective statements. If you remove that what does the section even do, say "this verse has characters of this tier"? The calculation section already does that. It just has no real purpose.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with DMUA and Armor.

 

[Antvasima]

The calculation sections do not list higher tiers than at most 3-A though, but I agree that listing haxes seems redundant at least, given that listing 50 or more of them for an entire verse would turn ridiculous.

 

[Armorchompy]

The calculation sections do not list higher tiers than at most 3-A though

That's fair but it's too small a niche for an entire section IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it, but I do not feel strongly about the issue. It depends on if any of you are willing to do the work of removing the section from all of our verse pages.

However, we also need to rewrite our verse page construction instructions, including regarding adding new "Scaling" sections.

 

[CurrySenpai]

However, we also need to rewrite our verse page construction instructions, including regarding adding new "Scaling" sections.

I can probably do that in a bit, just writing something up and figuring out how to copy and paste from a PDF, lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. Show the draft text here please.