Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision

[Jared1111]

Shit man, never noticed. Yep he needs updating too.

 

[Kerfuffles2]

@Kerfuffles2

Good to have you here helping out.

So what tier would you suggest for the most well-known Pre-Crisis version of Superman?

Also, I thought that the DC Comics (and possibly the Marvel) wiki does not like our wiki, since it turns story characters into a list of statistics, so I am a bit surprised to see you here. Or at least I heard that view from Tupka217. We seem to get along reasonably well despite that though.

Uh, well, I'm not very experienced in what thought processes have been used to assign tiering levels to specific characters. The pre-Crisis Superman (and comics characters in general to a lesser degree) is a headache to give a ranking based on scans from comic books, because you can pull out the infamous "sneezing away a galaxy" and "pulling a daisy-chain of large planets with zero effort" scans, conclude that he's just ridiculously overpowered, and end the discussion there. Of course, there were also some of the low showings like the time a Popeye pastiche named Captain Strong nearly fought him to a standstill empowered by alien seeweed in Action Comics #421, or the time that the Scarecrow affected Superman with a hologram of a Kryptonian octosaur in Justice League of America #111. And then there are the Bronze Age feats which have been brought up here as a step up from the more notorious and silly Silver Age feats -- Surpassing the threshold of infinity in DC Comics Presents #29, beating Maaldor the Darklord several times, withstanding the force of the Big Bang to get at Vandal Savage's Time Pyramid, and the fight with his Earth-AD descendant Jaxon the Mighty in Superman #295.

Making things more difficult is that the depiction of Superboy with respect to his feats and power levels also shifted to correspond with Bronze Age standards somewhat, even as Superman himself did. Although tonally jarring perhaps, it is undeniably the proper order of the pre-Crisis Superman timeline that Superboy's participation with the Legion in the Earthwar and the Great Darkness Saga chronologically preceded his early adult career of thwarting Lois Lane's innumerable attempts to prove his alter ego as Clark Kent, or the endless Red Kryptonite transformations. So any attempt to separate the pre-Crisis Superman into several "eras" by power level to model a kind of progression will ultimately rely upon fabrication, since depiction of power levels ultimately had to do more with publication era and storytelling style than in-universe explanations (the partial depowering experienced in the Kryptonite Nevermore story arc from Superman #233-242 notwithstanding, or the story arc where Superman's powers would backfire unless he visualized a boy's pet lynx).

So with all that being said, my gut feeling says proper tiering is High C-A at baseline, up to 2-C if pushing it, 2-A with Sword of Superman.

Characters in question are two Green Lantern villains (Shark and Black Hand). They both fought Hal across the silver and bronze age, but the latter nver quite did much to Hal. I guess they woulld fall into Low 2-C range, but we should probably have a hold-bacc tier for Supes and co though because they're of course not always hittng that hard. Respectng life and all that.
---
As for 2-A scaling. I suggest:

• Superman (
• Supergirl
• Power Girl (currently revising)
• Doctor Fate
• Alan Scott
• Cosmics and stuff.
• Captain Marvel (currently makiing)

There's still the Green Lantern 2-B and 3-A feats we can prbably scale to the GLC members for now.

With respect to the Shark, you could use him to compare with Superman. They had two pre-Crisis encounters that I know of: Action Comics #456 and Justice League of America #162. From what I recall, the Shark gave Superman a decent fight... But nevertheless, I would not endorse making Shark Low 2-C because I don't believe that it fits with the way the character had been portrayed for the most part.

In addition to the thing about the antimatter needle-bomb from earlier, something else that might be useful for scaling to Superman is Neutron, who in his first appearance bragged of containing the power fo 10 H-bombs and knocked Superman out in Action Comics #525, although he then went off and raged that he still wasn't able to kill Superman in spite of that he was trying. Keep in mind: 10 H-bombs = KO; planet-busting antimatter missile = almost kills.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

In consideration of his very numerous feats (shoving around planets, tanking supernovas, the typical nonsense he’s known for), Superman being knocked out by the power of ten hydrogen bombs would definitely have to be dismissed as Plot-Induced Stupidity.

Edit: Superman has tanked a blast equivalent to 100 H-Bombs without injury

 

[Kerfuffles2]

In consideration of his very numerous feats (shoving around planets, tanking supernovas, the typical nonsense he’s known for), Superman being knocked out by the power of ten hydrogen bombs would definitely have to be dismissed as Plot-Induced Stupidity.

Ah, but that was my point. The total lack of consistency. You're in for a headache no matter what you decide to use or discard.

I'm not entirely sure that this can be dismissed so easily either since, if not for Superman, that feat would have to be used to assist in tiering Neutron (assuming he ever gets a page).

What makes more sense, that Superman gets knocked out by Neutron, or that the Shark gets to be made Low 2-C for taking on Green Lantern Hal Jordan?

Ultimately, it comes down to this: At the pre-Crisis Superman's standard power levels, all things being equal, no physical force should be able to KO him. But in spite of that, he got KO'd dozens of times by adversaries who are arguably less powerful than he is.

Another edit: So I went back to Action Comics #526 and looked -- Neutron actually brags that one of his blasts "only" has the force of 10 H-bombs when it sends Superman reeling. That's PIS by your argument regardless, but it does imply that Neutron is considerably more powerful. He boasts that his power will increase until he's able to decimate worlds, but every subsequent appearance of the character has played him off as a hood more or less. And the one time the post-Crisis Superman used his body to nuke an island in Superman: The Man of Steel #131, it sure didn't seem to have the impact of 10 H-bombs.

 

[Stefano4444]

So with all that being said, my gut feeling says proper tiering is High C-A at baseline, up to 2-C if pushing it, 2-A with Sword of Superman.

Why 2-A with Sword of Superman? Last time i check that sword's best feat its about controlling all reality which its only Low 2-C.

 

[Stefano4444]

Superman seemingly defeats Maaldor (or at least visibly hurts) Maaldor in DC Comics Presents Vol 1 #65. Thoughts?

Apparently this story happen before Maaldor was threatening all existence, so while Maaldor may had grew in power nothing indicate that he was already 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier, with 2-A as his maximum?

 

[Stefano4444]

So should we give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier, with 2-A as his maximum?

Yes, like with Marvel Odin i think 2-A should be left as possibly, with 2-C as his standard tier.

Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and mortally wounded an extremely weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to harm Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad and in a later story he defeat him in his abstract form. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Maaldor with great effort, who at that point has grew so large that he was threatening all existence)

 

[Antvasima]

Stefano seems to make sense to me, but this is important, so we need input from other knowledgeable regular members and staff.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I've made my support of the 2-C to 2-A tier clear, so I have no issues with their suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Jared1111]

Yes, like with Marvel Odin i think 2-A should be left as possibly, with 2-C as his standard tier.

Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and mortally wounded an extremely weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to harm Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad and in a later story he defeat him in his abstract form. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Maaldor with great effort, who at that point has grew so large that he was threatening all existence)

I can accept this, this way we can still allow a lot of older Silver Age or Bronze Age Characters to be 2-C.

I would also add for 2-A (Comparable to Supergirl who managed to damage the Anti-Monitors Armor) since we should upgrade him back to 2-A.

Also, since the Crisis technically got rebooted, do we still consider the Anti Monitor to be as strong Post-Rebirth of the Multiverse? If so, would that mean Wally West would be upgraded (He did more damage to the Post-Crisis Anti Monitor than Superman or the rest of the heroes did, and even managed to strengthen them to push through his defenses)

 

[Stefano4444]

would that mean Wally West would be upgraded (He did more damage to the Post-Crisis Anti Monitor than Superman or the rest of the heroes did, and even managed to strengthen them to push through his defenses)

To be honest, i have always felt that feat to be an outlier, other that Flash had the help of Pre-Crisis heroes, who should be a lot more powerful than regular Post-Crisis Flash.

Does make sense for Flash to scale in anyway to a stronger version of COIE Anti-Monitor, who effortlessly defeated the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League and who fought an amped The Spectre?

Even that, if he was really that comparable why didn't Wally West just fight Anti-Monitor instead of running away? It clear that he was potrayed as much weaker than him.

And for the armor be destroyed, it was already heavy damaged by the combine attack of Pre-Crisis heroes who were amped by Flash.

 

[Deagonx]

The explanation for the Anti Matter-wave was that it woke him up and got him back to his original form, its also stated in the original part of the story that he outright absorbed the anti matter, meaning that anti matter wave had to have been power he himself transmitted, plus its implied the only reason he had never done the AM wave before was because of the never-ending stalemate he and the Monitor had, once he realized (as the image mentions above) that destroying the Positive Matter Universes itself weakened the Monitor and made him stronger did he finally go through with the plan

Hell the very image you yourself posted stated the Anti Matter woke him up from his prison that was created after exhaustively fighting the Monitor for eons.

also, the Anti Matter wave didn't just destroy Positive Matter as we know it, it was also shattering dimensional barriers and throughout the timestream. Positive Matter in this context also meant space/time, and the Anti-Matter Universe was absorbing ALL of the Positive Matter Multiverse.

This really isn't a response to what I'm saying. My comment was that creating a wave that can destroy infinite universes over time doesn't mean that you have 2-A durability or that your attacks within single combat are 2-A. What part of this paragraph addresses that discrepancy?

He needed a Anti Matter Cannon to destroy the rest of the Positive Matter Universes BECAUSE the Monitor had specifically put them in a place beyond his normal reach, that's an issue of Range, not Destructive capacity. This was also done with devices that the Monitor specifically designed to stop the AM wave to begin with.

How are his lackeys able to create a cannon that can reach the Limbo universe if he himself cannot do this?

It wasn't just affecting the universes themselves, but their space-time continuums as well, that's why when all the worlds merged their timelines also got crossed and ALL of time was merged together.

Pretty sure that outright is a Tier 2 feat.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Universes don't have space-time continuums, universes are space-time continuums. This doesn't really respond to what I'm saying at all. Likewise, why would it be a 2-A feat to merge the timelines of 5 universes?

It does when the full power of the Positive Matter flows through you as it does with the Monitor.

Do you have any evidence to suggest this the case? The fact that you find this interpretation intuitive isn't a replacement for evidence. I repeat, being powered by a universe doesn't mean you have the power to destroy a universe.

Also, the DC Universe has been stated to be an "infinite expanding reality"

This loose interpretation of the big-bang in a throw-away line about what Brainiac was thinking during that scene, in a comic book that was published 45 years after COIE, does not overwrite the cacophony of evidence that the universes within DC have distinct boundaries and limited spatial size.

has been described as infinite realms multiple times.

I am referring to each individual universe.

It is pretty consistent though, DC has established since the beginning that each Universe and divergent timeline is just a series of choices that is made within each universe, and this spreads beyond each variation. This exists both Pre and Post Crisis with explanations of infinite divergent timelines coming from infinite choices.

It isn't consistent, though. It has been said multiple times, but the opposite has been said too, several times. After COIE Harbinger said there was only one timeline. If it were indeed the case that every decision was constantly spawning infinite timelines, this would never have been the case. Then again in Infinite Crisis, it was said that each Earth had it's own timeline, and that after COIE, there was only one timeline. The whole point of Flashpoint was that Barry altering the timeline endangered the world, and that the worlds timeline was split into three in order to weaken it, and Barry had to reunite it

So likewise, it has been established since the beginning that each universe is one timeline, and this exists both pre and post crisis.

So I repeat, the evidence is inconsistent. The most recent model for the multiverse as described by Alpheus indicates that there are 52 universes, and unpleasant realities go down into the Dark Multiverse, which suggests that there isn't an infinitude of timelines within each universe, but rather each universe has a distinct history, but only one timeline.

The simple fact is that there isn't one simple answer. This isn't controversial, DC has been really inconsistent.

Wait why is timeline destruction suddenly not Tier 2?

It is, I just don't think it should be, due to how many fictions treat universes and timelines (and the relative ability to destroy them) as vastly different.

The guy saying it’s not is just trying to word his opinions off as facts.

No, I didn't. I explicitly said it was my opinion. Is there a reason you're flaming and deliberately misrepresenting the facts?

Nor do I believe that timelines should necessarily be equated to universes in terms of scaling due to how variably they are used in different settings and storylines.

Obviously presented as an opinion, not a fact.

Till date I still don't understand this moment how he defeated the spectre.

Spectre's power is incredibly inconsistent. This is literally true in canon, but yeah he's superman-esque in how variable his power can be, which is why scaling from him is so iffy.

So should we consider that the Anti-Monitor couldn't easily destroy the remaining 5 universes as a plot-induced stupidity outlier, and rate him as 2-A anyway even in base form?

I think it would make more sense to emphasize that the AM-wave was 2-A, whereas in combat he is 2-C. My main objection is that the power of the Anti-Matter wave can't really be translated to an individual combat setting, when you consider how the wave worked and what AM's ability to use it is.

So should we give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier, with 2-A as his maximum?

I think so. PC Supes is one of the least consistent characters in fiction, bordering on a gag character. It's okay to acknowledge that in the profile, it just means that generally speaking when people say PC supes they should indicate with more level of specificity.

So with all that being said, my gut feeling says proper tiering is High C-A at baseline, up to 2-C if pushing it, 2-A with Sword of Superman.

I think this is a level-headed assessment. I assume by C-A you meant 3-A?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Deagonx.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Im okay with treating the 2-A as a maximum/peak key, yeah.

Since this is all but sorted out, I think I can work on my Power Girl revision.

 

[Antvasima]

Wait a bit with publishing it please. We need to decide the exact new statistics and revise the other affected pages that scale from Superman first.

 

[Jared1111]

This really isn't a response to what I'm saying. My comment was that creating a wave that can destroy infinite universes over time doesn't mean that you have 2-A durability or that your attacks within single combat are 2-A. What part of this paragraph addresses that discrepancy?

My point was your comment about how argued that somehow the energy wasn't coming from the himself, even though it was energy he only needed to rehabilitate himself. Also, it is tied to his durability because of how it ties into his power against the Monitor

How are his lackeys able to create a cannon that can reach the Limbo universe if he himself cannot do this?

Is it ever stated he couldn't do it if he wanted to? I addressed this in an earlier comment that its an issue of range not power, so its possible he needed to create a specific tuning device to even try to reach the nether dimension

That sounds more like a story issue anyway, how would the dude who created the lackeys and molded them be dumber than they are.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Universes don't have space-time continuums, universes are space-time continuums. This doesn't really respond to what I'm saying at all. Likewise, why would it be a 2-A feat to merge the timelines of 5 universes?

In DC each specific universe is given its own 4D dimension, and thats also how we treat them in this wiki, if you have an issue with that, then you have an issue with how this wiki specifies how timelines work. Also not every universe in fiction has space-time continuums or is documented to have them.

I never... said it was a 2-A feat to merge the timelines of 5 universes? Its a 2-C feat, my point was that even a literally on deathbed Monitor could be a 2-C being, despite only having his connection to those 5 Universes for strength, which included all of their time and space condensed into one space. Thats a blatant 2-C feat, and since the Monitor once had control over INFINITE Universes, it stands to reason he would have 2-A strength from that.

Do you have any evidence to suggest this the case? The fact that you find this interpretation intuitive isn't a replacement for evidence. I repeat, being powered by a universe doesn't mean you have the power to destroy a universe.

If you have the power to rip the entirety of a Universe and its timestream, even with no power, to places beyond where their time and space is, then logically speaking you could probably destroy them as well.

That, and he equal and opposite being, the Anti Monitor WAS destroying the Universes with his own power to strengthen it. So yeah, i would say he would probably need to be comparable.

This loose interpretation of the big-bang in a throw-away line about what Brainiac was thinking during that scene, in a comic book that was published 45 years after COIE, does not overwrite the cacophony of evidence that the universes within DC have distinct boundaries and limited spatial size.

Uh sorry, you can't just ignore the future interpretations of DC and them explaining how DC works just because it defeats your argument. All-powerful being explaining how the Universes works also means a lot more than random side characters' interpretations of how the Universe works.

Hell, we as human beings have changed our minds on how reality works in the past 45 years alone.

I am referring to each individual universe.

Realms refers to the Universes themselves, each are infinite.

It isn't consistent, though. It has been said multiple times, but the opposite has been said too, several times. After COIE Harbinger said there was only one timeline. If it were indeed the case that every decision was constantly spawning infinite timelines, this would never have been the case. Then again in Infinite Crisis, it was said that each Earth had it's own timeline, and that after COIE, there was only one timeline. The whole point of Flashpoint was that Barry altering the timeline endangered the world, and that the worlds timeline was split into three in order to weaken it, and Barry had to reunite it

Dude, Harbinger said that right after the COIE had occurred and she wasn't aware of Hypertime at that moment. Also it said that each Earth had its own timeline, because each created was a split in the timeline. Earth One's possible timelines also included numbered Earths that were apart of the Multiverse. Plenty of alternate Earth Ones existed in the DC Multiverse, but just because they destroyed each and everyone at the time doesn't mean that those splits in realities didn't happen.

Even if you want to argue that somehow doesn't count and each of the main Earths only has "one timeline" well thats contradicted by several reports that retcon that information out at a later time.

So likewise, it has been established since the beginning that each universe is one timeline, and this exists both pre and post crisis.

Its also been established that each Earth had its own 5th Dimension at one point, and that there was only 52 Universes. Smaller tier characters can change their minds and rework their thesis of how the universe works, that's not illogical.

So I repeat, the evidence is inconsistent. The most recent model for the multiverse as described by Alpheus indicates that there are 52 universes, and unpleasant realities go down into the Dark Multiverse, which suggests that there isn't an infinitude of timelines within each universe, but rather each universe has a distinct history, but only one timeline.

No, the Multiverse is described as infinite, even within the Rebirth DC Multiverse.

The simple fact is that there isn't one simple answer. This isn't controversial, DC has been really inconsistent.

DC arguably being inconsistent isn't an excuse to absolutely downgrade everything to the lowest possible interpretation, which is what you always seem to do. Yes, there will always be inconsistencies within DC, but we shouldn't just find random pages of characters who may or may not even be fully aware of the scope of the DC-verse, and then take their own word for it and decided "nah, DC is like High 3-A".

It is, I just don't think it should be, due to how many fictions treat universes and timelines (and the relative ability to destroy them) as vastly different.

Well, how you think is fine, but this wiki and how DC treats their fictional universes don't work the way you want them to work. Fiction is allowed to be malleable to fit whatever standards it wants to fit.

No, I didn't. I explicitly said it was my opinion. Is there a reason you're flaming and deliberately misrepresenting the facts?

Obviously presented as an opinion, not a fact.

Why does your opinion matter at a time like this? You are disagreeing with a fundamental aspect of how we rank DC and other fictional universes in a revision thread for Superman. If you have a problem with how we equate these universes then start a revision thread.

I don't quite like the term Invulnerability, but i'm not going to a Super Sonic thread to complain about its use. Time and place man.

I think it would make more sense to emphasize that the AM-wave was 2-A, whereas in combat he is 2-C. My main objection is that the power of the Anti-Matter wave can't really be translated to an individual combat setting, when you consider how the wave worked and what AM's ability to use it is.

Again, if Anti Monitor not being able to destroy the 5 Universes was somehow a combat feat, then why couldn't he destroy the Universes while being more hypercharged than the Monitor was, even though the Monitor in a weakened state created the Netherverse? Why couldn't he just absorb the Multiverse like he did for the time feat and then blow up the Netherverse?

Why would he need a machine to be built by his lackeys if the power to mold and shoot out Anti Matter was once of his core abilities.

Its because, like the story said, and like shown through Apokolips, he couldn't reach it conventionally. He needed to use his own devices to counter what the Monitor had done, the Monitor goes out of his way throughout the story to stop the 5 Universes from falling, its obvious he put them in the netherverse because he KNEW the AM couldn't reach it without help. That is a RANGE issue not a AP issue.

I think so. PC Supes is one of the least consistent characters in fiction, bordering on a gag character. It's okay to acknowledge that in the profile, it just means that generally speaking when people say PC supes they should indicate with more level of specificity.

He isn't a damn gag character, he's absurdly powerful to the point of absurdity yes, but he has never been shown to be a cartoon character or someone who fights without a sense of seriousness. He took himself and his universe seriously since day 1, and he felt pain, could die, could be defeated in 1v1 combat. A gag character is OP above almost everyone else, Superman was pretty standard and down to earth in comparison.

All of that doesn't even apply to the Bronze Age as we're specifying, because he was clearly grounded in reality and was just absurdly strong and thats it, he didn't even display most of his more ridiculous powers.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to be fair, Pre-Crisis Superman was legitimately extremely inconsistent and many of his stories had a very whimsical non-serious nature.

 

[Jared1111]

Well, to be fair, Pre-Crisis Superman was legitimately extremely inconsistent and many of his stories had a very whimsical non-serious nature.

I agree on the somewhat inconsistent part (even though from what I've read that only occurs during the later transition to the Bronze Age, or arguments of Superman holding back which is canon to his Post-Crisis counterpart as well) but the stories being for kids doesn't mean he's a gag character.

Silver Age Superman never acted like Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse, the threats he faced were serious and the battles he fought actually had stakes, people could die and villains could legitimately hurt people. Superman faced some wacky shit, but that was wacky in a "this is the 50's-60's and we're throwing every idea at the wall" same with stuff like Star Trek or Doctor Who... doesn't mean those characters are gag characters or it being a gag series.

Something being goofy by modern standards doesn't automatically make it Looney Tunes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Around the '70s, DC's tone and stories tended to change from whimsical and cartoonish, to slowly more serious stuff. Batman became the Grm Avenger once again, Aquaman's son was murdered, Green Lantern dealt with racism and classism , and Superman started faces more serious threats than ever. Take the three-part storyline Luthor Unleashed for example, It involved Superman accidently killing an entire planets worth of people and having a mental breakdown over the result of it. Pretty serious stuff for the time. So, I strongly disagree with the notion that he's a gag character.

 

[Teezar]

This really isn't a response to what I'm saying. My comment was that creating a wave that can destroy infinite universes over time doesn't mean that you have 2-A durability or that your attacks within single combat are 2-A. What part of this paragraph addresses that discrepancy

I heard destroying infinite universes overtime is still 2A though.

Spectre's power is incredibly inconsistent. This is literally true in canon, but yeah he's superman-esque in how variable his power can be, which is why scaling from him is so iffy.

I actually remember an author tweet statement saying spectre powers Varies according to the story so I might agree with you here.

 

[Jared1111]

Around the '70s, DC's tone and stories tended to change from whimsical and cartoonish, to slowly more serious stuff. Batman became the Grm Avenger once again, Aquaman's son was murdered, Green Lantern dealt with racism and classism , and Superman started faces more serious threats than ever. Take the three-part storyline Luthor Unleashed for example, It involved Superman accidently killing an entire planets worth of people and having a mental breakdown over the result of it. Pretty serious stuff for the time. So, I strongly disagree with the notion that he's a gag character.

Bronze Age Superman tried to straight up murder Mongul.

 

[Deagonx]

My point was your comment about how argued that somehow the energy wasn't coming from the himself,

That wasn't really my point, no.

Is it ever stated he couldn't do it if he wanted to?

It's strongly strongly implied by the fact that he was defeated in the middle of construction. He literally would've won if he did it himself. Likewise, if Monitor can transfer universes to the Netherverse with 5 universes worth of power, why can't Anti-Monitor get to it with infinite universes?

That sounds more like a story issue anyway, how would the dude who created the lackeys and molded them be dumber than they are.

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of power. What I'm asking is, if this ultra powerful being who has the power of infinite universes running through him, cannot reach the limbo dimension, how can his lackeys create a cannon that can pierce it?

In DC each specific universe is given its own 4D dimension, and thats also how we treat them in this wiki, if you have an issue with that, then you have an issue with how this wiki specifies how timelines work. Also not every universe in fiction has space-time continuums or is documented to have them.

The 4th dimension is not a spacetime continuum. All 4 dimensions, 3 geometric + 1 temporal, is a spacetime continuum. I don't think you understand the term you are using.

Its a 2-C feat, my point was that even a literally on deathbed Monitor could be a 2-C being, despite only having his connection to those 5 Universes for strength, which included all of their time and space condensed into one space. Thats a blatant 2-C feat, and since the Monitor once had control over INFINITE Universes, it stands to reason he would have 2-A strength from that.

Okay, but the only feat Monitor has pertaining to this was using his life essence to move two universes to the Netherverse. The other three were moved by Alex Luthor, and the merging of the universes into one universe wasn't performed by Monitor. So my whole point was that moving two universes to a different realm doesnt necessarily mean you can destroy them. So you shouldn't upscale that feat to a destructive capacity of some kind.

Likewise, the Netherverse was born from Monitor's essence. I suppose he could have been talking about the energy from the positive matter universes, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would give all of his energy to create a Netherverse, but the universes that are supposedly powering this Netherverse are unaffected.

If you have the power to rip the entirety of a Universe and its timestream, even with no power, to places beyond where their time and space is, then logically speaking you could probably destroy them as well.

That's merely an assumption. You can move an object without being able to destroy it.

That, and he equal and opposite being, the Anti Monitor WAS destroying the Universes with his own power to strengthen it. So yeah, i would say he would probably need to be comparable.

But Anti Monitor wasn't destroying universes with sheer power. He released the anti-matter wave which destroys positive matter. Monitor doesn't have anti-matter powers, and positive matter can't destroy anti-matter, so how is he going to destroy a universe?

Uh sorry, you can't just ignore the future interpretations of DC and them explaining how DC works just because it defeats your argument

You are correct, I cannot do that. Good thing I didn't do that. You are taking a figure of speech that Brainiac used to describe an experience as a literal statement of fact about how DC works.

Regardless, the evidence is mixed. It's that simple.

Realms refers to the Universes themselves, each are infinite.

Do you have a source indicating that the word "realms" in that scan is referring to universes?

Even if you want to argue that somehow doesn't count and each of the main Earths only has "one timeline" well thats contradicted by several reports that retcon that information out at a later time.

I'm not saying they "don't count." I am saying that there is mixed evidence. How timelines work in DC changes a lot depending on who is writing and what era they're writing in.

Its also been established that each Earth had its own 5th Dimension at one point, and that there was only 52 Universes. Smaller tier characters can change their minds and rework their thesis of how the universe works, that's not illogical.

Certainly. However, why are we assuming the most grandiose description is the correct on if we are saying characters often change their minds?

No, the Multiverse is described as infinite, even within the Rebirth DC Multiverse.

Indeed. It is also described as finite, repeatedly, even in Rebirth. The evidence is inconsistent. I don't know why this makes you so upset, it's a simple fact.

DC arguably being inconsistent isn't an excuse to absolutely downgrade everything to the lowest possible interpretation,

Nor is it a reason to upgrade everything to the highest possible interpretation. Feats should be examined in context.

but we shouldn't just find random pages of characters who may or may not even be fully aware of the scope of the DC-verse, and then take their own word for it and decided "nah, DC is like High 3-A".

Agreed. I have never done this.

Fiction is allowed to be malleable to fit whatever standards it wants to fit.

Correct, that's precisely my point. That's why I disagree with there being a singular standard about timelines when their representation is variable.

Why does your opinion matter at a time like this? You are disagreeing with a fundamental aspect of how we rank DC and other fictional universes in a revision thread for Superman. If you have a problem with how we equate these universes then start a revision thread.

I don't quite like the term Invulnerability, but i'm not going to a Super Sonic thread to complain about its use. Time and place man.

If you did not want to discuss the topic, you were not forced to respond to it. I simply explained that I don't agree with the framework provided, but that I would set aside those disagreements and provide an answer within it regardless, since I was asked to contribute.

Again, if Anti Monitor not being able to destroy the 5 Universes was somehow a combat feat, then why couldn't he destroy the Universes while being more hypercharged than the Monitor was, even though the Monitor in a weakened state created the Netherverse?

Because creation and destruction are distinctly different things. Creating a universe doesn't mean you can destroy it. Also, it's not clear how the Netherverse scales to a genuine universe.

Why would he need a machine to be built by his lackeys if the power to mold and shoot out Anti Matter was once of his core abilities.

That's kind of my point.

He isn't a damn gag character

I never said he was. Chill with the temper tantrum, it's unbecoming. People are allowed to disagree with your opinion.

 

[Deagonx]

I heard destroying infinite universes overtime is still 2A though.

I'm not disagreeing with that, per se, I'm saying that AM doesn't scale to the power of the Antimatter-Wave in combat. He released a wave that might be 2-A, but he doesn't have that much power that he can simply unleash on anyone who he fights.

So, I strongly disagree with the notion that he's a gag character.

No one said he was a gag character.

 

[Antvasima]

I didn't say that he is a gag character either. Just that many of his stories were of a whimsical nature, which is true and I personally liked btw.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

My point was mostly that Pre-Crisis isnt a singular entity and that there was a lot of stylistic, corporate, and individual changes over the 30 years of its existence and it wasnt just the whimsical stories of the 50s and 60s. Some writers and artists were very much of a time, but some runs feel positively modern. Wasnt tryng to strawman anyone or anything.

 

[Jared1111]

That wasn't really my point, no.

It kinda was at first.

It's strongly strongly implied by the fact that he was defeated in the middle of construction. He literally would've won if he did it himself. Likewise, if Monitor can transfer universes to the Netherverse with 5 universes worth of power, why can't Anti-Monitor get to it with infinite universes?

He was defeated in the middle of construction because that weapon was the only thing that could've gotten him to the Netherverse to begin with. Monitor had to specifically create devices to not only stop the AM wave, but also create tuning forks that allowed him to create this netherverse that he knew the AM couldn't reach conventionally. The fact the AM had to create a weapon to even reach the Netherverse, despite also being able to contend with characters that are absolutely 2-C at a bare minimum in power is proof it ain't just a power scaling feat, yes.

You're literally proving my point by mentioning the Anti Monitor not being able to destroy 5 puny universes after absorbing a dimension of like Two Multiverses of power.

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of power. What I'm asking is, if this ultra powerful being who has the power of infinite universes running through him, cannot reach the limbo dimension, how can his lackeys create a cannon that can pierce it?

Exactly, it can't be an issue of power because that doesn't make any sense. The point was the weapon was able to reach a netherverse that he couldn't on his own. The Monitor had to use instruments and tuning forks in order to focus his power to send them to the netherverse in the first place (and before you say it, no the story doesn't imply that he was using any other power to move the universes, just that the universes themselves had to be displaced to get there)

Anti Monitor couldn't reach the universes at all without the cannon because the cannon was fine tuned to specifically destroy those 5 Universes in the place he couldn't reach with conventional means. The Anti Matter Universe had already consumed the Positive Matter Universe and taken its place, so if he absorbed the Anti Matter Universe, he would undoubtedly be 2-A... yet he still needed to go back to the beginnings of creation to finally win.

So unless those 5 Universes are A.) Somehow beyond the power of a 2-A being, which makes them even more impressive B.) Just 5 Universes, and The Anti Monitor is jut a ******* massive idot or C.) They are in a place, that doesn't matter how powerful he is, he cannot reach.

JUST LIKE he couldn't reach Apokolips despite DARKSEID SPECIFICALLY SAYING HE COULD DESTROY IT WITH HIS OWN POWER IF HE REACHED IT. It. is . range.

The 4th dimension is not a spacetime continuum. All 4 dimensions, 3 geometric + 1 temporal, is a spacetime continuum. I don't think you understand the term you are using.

The 4th Dimension in DC is its own separate reality that is the focal point for all other Space TIme Continnums. It is the nexus point that all time throughout all reality focuses through in the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis DC. There is one Time Dimension and there is one Time Trapper, but multiple different timelines and spaces exist throughout each indivdual universe and its offshoots.

Okay, but the only feat Monitor has pertaining to this was using his life essence to move two universes to the Netherverse. The other three were moved by Alex Luthor, and the merging of the universes into one universe wasn't performed by Monitor. So my whole point was that moving two universes to a different realm doesnt necessarily mean you can destroy them. So you shouldn't upscale that feat to a destructive capacity of some kind.

The other 3 were moved by the power of Harbinger, who specifically uses the power of the Monitor as she was given a portion of his power. Her power is his, and if he wasn't literally about to die with no way back, he could've done the rest of the feats himself. She literally has a share of the rest of his power which is what she used to save the rest of the universes. He had specifically prepared for this and knew she would kill him, but would save the day.

Monitor himself also directly created the netherverse for which the rest of the Universes are held, so the feat still directly scales to him and the size of the netherverse. Your argument about them not affecting the rest of the Universes can be answered through harbinger.

That's merely an assumption. You can move an object without being able to destroy it.

Moving the entirety of a Universe and its timeline through a specific junction through sheer power would have to necessitate the ability to destroy. You can't be moving that much energy and not have a full control over it.

And again, scaling to the Anti Monitor.

But Anti Monitor wasn't destroying universes with sheer power. He released the anti-matter wave which destroys positive matter. Monitor doesn't have anti-matter powers, and positive matter can't destroy anti-matter, so how is he going to destroy a universe?

The Anti Matter wave WAS HIS POWER. He didn't "unleash it" he literally absorbed the Anti Matter energy that awakened it, and then used the AM wave as his attack. You're acting like he just unleashed the Anti Matter from a cage or something, it was HIS ATTACK, its mentioned to be HIS ATTACK throughout the story. And like i said before, he was stated to be able to destroy the New Gods realm and its inhabitants, who are UNIVERSAL level beings.

Monitor was able to hold back a fully powered Anti Monitor at their peaks for literal eons, having their powers literally be equal at all times, he doesn't need to destroy an entire Multiverse for his AP to be the same.

You are correct, I cannot do that. Good thing I didn't do that. You are taking a figure of speech that Brainiac used to describe an experience as a literal statement of fact about how DC works.

How is it a figure of speech? When does Brainiac, the computer being known for his lack of emotions and saying things very matter-of-factly, ever use "figures of speech" especially that broad? Brainiac would know first hand the limits of the Universe, he literally controlled an entire Multiverse at one point and seen the size of DC multiple times. He would know best of all the size of the Universe.

Regardless, the evidence is mixed. It's that simple.

"It doesn't fit my argument, So yeah I'm just gonna ignore it"

Fair enough I guess.

Do you have a source indicating that the word "realms" in that scan is referring to universes?

It's from a Spectre/Phantom Stranger exchange where they are speaking about the Universe. Worlds in this case mean Universe, so Infinite Realms means infinite space within Universes.

I'm not saying they "don't count." I am saying that there is mixed evidence. How timelines work in DC changes a lot depending on who is writing and what era they're writing in.

Mixed evidence from characters that would have limited knowledge of the DC Universe.

Also if you want to argue that me using future titles to back scale DC is wrong, then why are you using scans of how timelines work that also came decades after Pre-Crisis?

Certainly. However, why are we assuming the most grandiose description is the correct on if we are saying characters often change their minds?

If the character like Brainiac or the Spectre is the one describing the Universe and they say it's an infinite reality, then I would assume they have more intimate knowledge of how it works than say Batman.

DC themselves have even addressed how limited the knowledge of lower end DC Characters can be on its size.

Indeed. It is also described as finite, repeatedly, even in Rebirth. The evidence is inconsistent. I don't know why this makes you so upset, it's a simple fact.

I don't know how you ever got me correcting you like me "being upset" but i'm glad you're trying to deflate my arguments by appealing to my emotional state.

Nor is it a reason to upgrade everything to the highest possible interpretation. Feats should be examined in context.

I can agree with that... however.

If you did not want to discuss the topic, you were not forced to respond to it. I simply explained that I don't agree with the framework provided, but that I would set aside those disagreements and provide an answer within it regardless, since I was asked to contribute.

I never said he was. Chill with the temper tantrum, it's unbecoming. People are allowed to disagree with your opinion.

You again are implying i'm throwing a temper tantrum because i said "damn" (also don't weasel your way out of that by not implying that was where your argument was going, you did imply gag character don't be pedantic about it) so you are clearly alright to insult me when I disagree with you.

I can just as easily appeal to emotions by arguing all you've ever seen to do with is try to downgrade DC and its characters throughout your entire time being here, any look at your post history could show that i could also point out images like this

and be like "Well this dude is just a downplayer, ignore him" but I'm honestly trying to argue against your points which i find to be ridiculous.

I'm only saying that what your opinions are and how they should be focused upon really don't matter, especially since if we agreed upon them we'd have to radically change all of DC and its cosmology to account for it. Which this isn't the time or place for.

So how about you stop being a massive dick and just argue with me instead of insulting me, capiche?

 

[Jared1111]

I didn't say that he is a gag character either. Just that many of his stories were of a whimsical nature, which is true and I personally liked btw.

That's fine, my point wasn't that you said he was just a gag character, my point was that he was always a character that took himself seriously, and his feats are legitimate feats and not something we can dismiss as "goofy outliers".

The character was that powerful and being inconsistent (which TBF he really wasn't and most of it can be chocked up to his several weaknesses or just being caught off guard) shouldn't be throw up our hands and be like "oh well what can you do". Especially for his later Bronze Age debut which wasn't as whimsical.

 

[Greenshifter]

ou again are implying i'm throwing a temper tantrum because i said "damn"

Shadow must be having a lot of temper tantrums

 

[Deagonx]

It kinda was at first.

No, it wasn't. That was an assumption that you made about why I was presenting certain pieces of information, but it was an incorrect one.

Monitor had to specifically create devices to not only stop the AM wave, but also create tuning forks that allowed him to create this netherverse that he knew the AM couldn't reach conventionally. The fact the AM had to create a weapon to even reach the Netherverse, despite also being able to contend with characters that are absolutely 2-C at a bare minimum in power is proof it ain't just a power scaling feat, yes.

That's literally my point. How can AM's opposite counterpart block him from going to a realm, using power that is far inferior to AM's own power? How would creating a cannon circumvent that? Why can't AM simply destroy the Netherverse?

The 4th Dimension in DC is its own separate reality that is the focal point for all other Space TIme Continnums. It is the nexus point that all time throughout all reality focuses through in the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis DC. There is one Time Dimension and there is one Time Trapper, but multiple different timelines and spaces exist throughout each indivdual universe and its offshoots.

Okay, you aren't responding to my points again. Do you understand what the phrase spacetime continuum means?

The other 3 were moved by the power of Harbinger, who specifically uses the power of the Monitor as she was given a portion of his power. Her power is his, and if he wasn't literally about to die with no way back, he could've done the rest of the feats himself.

You are deliberately taking scans out of context and misrepresenting them to support a legit lie. The second scan says "three more [earths] now join them. And Harbinger, given powers by [Monitor]..."

That line is an addition to the part about three earths being added. It isnt about Harbinger doing it. Alex was literally the one who did it.

Moving the entirety of a Universe and its timeline through a specific junction through sheer power would have to necessitate the ability to destroy. You can't be moving that much energy and not have a full control over it.

Yes you can. You can move objects without destroying them. There's nothing logically inconsistent about this. You're saying it's necessitated, but you've offered no substantiation or argument other than simply repeating your theory with different wording.

He didn't "unleash it" he literally absorbed the Anti Matter energy that awakened it, and then used the AM wave as his attack. You're acting like he just unleashed the Anti Matter from a cage or something, it was HIS ATTACK, its mentioned to be HIS ATTACK throughout the story.

Okay, and it destroys universes through a mechanism of interaction between anti-matter and matter that Monitor is not capable of replicating. So how is Monitor going to destroy them?

Monitor was able to hold back a fully powered Anti Monitor at their peaks for literal eons, having their powers literally be equal at all times, he doesn't need to destroy an entire Multiverse for his AP to be the same.

I didn't say his AP wasn't the same.

How is it a figure of speech? When does Brainiac, the computer being known for his lack of emotions and saying things very matter-of-factly, ever use "figures of speech" especially that broad?

It is literally a figure of speech. He is using the big bang as a simile for his experience. Likewise, consider the wording. "Brainiac things that this must have been what it was like at the big bang." This indicates that he doesn't know. Likewise, the existence of the Source Wall at the edge of the universe indicates that it is not infinite. Beings travel there all the time without teleportation.

"It doesn't fit my argument, So yeah I'm just gonna ignore it"

Fair enough I guess.

I'm not ignoring it, I am presenting the fact that the evidence is mixed. This is a childish response.

It's from a Spectre/Phantom Stranger exchange where they are speaking about the Universe. Worlds in this case mean Universe, so Infinite Realms means infinite space within Universes.

Okay, this isn't a response, you have simply repeated yourself with new phrasing. I am asking, where is your evidence of this interpretation? I agree that Worlds most likely means Universes, it could also mean planets. Where are you substantiating your theory that infinite realms is about infinite space within the universe?

Mixed evidence from characters that would have limited knowledge of the DC Universe.

Which characters are you saying my evidence is from, who have limited knowledge?

You again are implying i'm throwing a temper tantrum because i said "damn"

I stated directly that you are having a temper tantrum, not implying it. Also, the fact that you said damn was not the reason, you merely assumed that.

i could also point out images like this

Okay. Lucifer is literally not a god. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by pointing out that I said this, it's literally true. He is an angel, not a deity.

I can just as easily appeal to emotions by arguing all you've ever seen to do with is try to downgrade DC and its characters throughout your entire time being here

And? I was not referencing your emotions in order to disqualify your argument. That was another assumption you made. I referenced your emotions because it is tiring to have a discussion with someone who weaves in their adolescent frustration into every paragraph.

Which this isn't the time or place for.

If you didn't want to discuss it, you didn't have to reply to it.

So how about you stop being a massive dick and just argue with me instead of insulting me, capiche?

This is embarrassing.

 

[Antvasima]

My point was mostly that Pre-Crisis isnt a singular entity and that there was a lot of stylistic, corporate, and individual changes over the 30 years of its existence and it wasnt just the whimsical stories of the 50s and 60s. Some writers and artists were very much of a time, but some runs feel positively modern. Wasnt tryng to strawman anyone or anything.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Jared and Deagon, can the two of you stop insult and be hostile to each other, and try to collaborate, so we can try to get something constructive done here please?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

To be honest, i have always felt that feat to be an outlier, other that Flash had the help of Pre-Crisis heroes, who should be a lot more powerful than regular Post-Crisis Flash.

Does make sense for Flash to scale in anyway to a stronger version of COIE Anti-Monitor, who effortlessly defeated the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League and who fought an amped The Spectre?

Even that, if he was really that comparable why didn't Wally West just fight Anti-Monitor instead of running away? It clear that he was potrayed as much weaker than him.

And for the armor be destroyed, it was already heavy damaged by the combine attack of Pre-Crisis heroes who were amped by Flash.

The story made it very clear that Wally>JLA

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

And for the armor be destroyed, it was already heavy damaged by the combine attack of Pre-Crisis heroes who were amped by Flash.

That’d support Flash scaling lol

 

[Greenshifter]

Can we not do Flash scaling here? Or I’ll have to get seriously involved on an irrelevant topic

 

[Jared1111]

Can we not do Flash scaling here? Or I’ll have to get seriously involved on an irrelevant topic

How is it irrelevant when Wally West's 2-C justification is him scaling to Anti-Monitor. Changing the AM's tier would also affect Wally West.

 

[Jared1111]

No, it wasn't. That was an assumption that you made about why I was presenting certain pieces of information, but it was an incorrect one.

It wasn't an assumption, you kept bringing up the argument that the Anti-Monitor power didn't come from him, and that somehow a wave he managed to control and detonate. When the story makes it clear its his power, that was my entire point against your argument.

That's literally my point. How can AM's opposite counterpart block him from going to a realm, using power that is far inferior to AM's own power? How would creating a cannon circumvent that? Why can't AM simply destroy the Netherverse?

Because he specifically used devices like the Tuning Fork and his base to create a dimension he knew would be beyond the AM's reach? Thats why the AM also had to create a specific weapon to counteract that weapon?

Like i explained 10 times but for some reason you keep ignoring?

Okay, you aren't responding to my points again. Do you understand what the phrase spacetime continuum means?

Do you understand that how Space-Time Continuum works in DC ain't the same as in real life? We don't even really understand how Space-Time absolutely works in real life.

You are deliberately taking scans out of context and misrepresenting them to support a legit lie. The second scan says "three more [earths] now join them. And Harbinger, given powers by [Monitor]..."

That line is an addition to the part about three earths being added. It isnt about Harbinger doing it. Alex was literally the one who did it.

Except no, Harbinger and Alexander Luthor had to use their Matter powers given to them to reach the netherverse, the very panel mentions they having to use those powers bestowed upon them to finish the job. Harbinger was also able to accomplish the feat because of the powers the Monitor bestowed upon her.

Also Alexander literally didn't do it because Harbinger knocked his ass out because the process would've killed him, the very panels you show say exactly that. Hell the next page says exactly that Harbinger had to use the entirety of the energy given to her by the Monitor to finish the job, and once done she was drained completely.

Yes you can. You can move objects without destroying them. There's nothing logically inconsistent about this. You're saying it's necessitated, but you've offered no substantiation or argument other than simply repeating your theory with different wording.

The force to move an object like the Moon or the Earth outside of their orbit can be far greater than the energy to destroy them.

My substantiation argument also comes down to the fact that he scales directly to a guy like the Anti Monitor, who he could match energy blasts with, and is superior to guys like Darkseid and Time Trapper, all of which can create and destroy Universes. Their AP would have to be the same or greater.

Okay, and it destroys universes through a mechanism of interaction between anti-matter and matter that Monitor is not capable of replicating. So how is Monitor going to destroy them?

Because he scales in direct AP and power to the Anti Monitor, who is already above beings that casually destroy Universes.

I didn't say his AP wasn't the same.

Then you agree... then what are you complaining about?

It is literally a figure of speech. He is using the big bang as a simile for his experience. Likewise, consider the wording. "Brainiac things that this must have been what it was like at the big bang." This indicates that he doesn't know. Likewise, the existence of the Source Wall at the edge of the universe indicates that it is not infinite. Beings travel there all the time without teleportation.

"It's literally a figure of speech" How? Also, Brainiac being an all-encompassing supercomputer that has LITERALLY seen the Big Bang before would know how things work at the Big Bang. He says he must have been because he has a detailed history of how a Universe works.

Arguing that it's somehow a figure of speech is ludicrous at best, and downplay at worst, I'm sorry.

Also wait, the text doesn't even imply that it was Brainiac was the one saying it, it was just a narrative caption that was describing what was happening in the story. So that's not even correct... it was just the literal narration saying the Universe was infinite.

I'm not ignoring it, I am presenting the fact that the evidence is mixed. This is a childish response.

You are literally blowing it off because it doesn't fit your narrative, without even trying to explain it away at the time.

Okay, this isn't a response, you have simply repeated yourself with new phrasing. I am asking, where is your evidence of this interpretation? I agree that Worlds most likely means Universes, it could also mean planets. Where are you substantiating your theory that infinite realms is about infinite space within the universe?

What do you mean it isn't a response... I told you the context of the issue and how Spectre and Phantom Stranger were talking about Universes in the context. How could you interpret Infinite Realms within... Planets in that context either?

I'm not trying to be rude, but did you actually read my response before you decided to post this?

Which characters are you saying my evidence is from, who have limited knowledge?

Most characters that have ever stated the Multiverse or Universe were limited weren't given complete knowledge of all existence, or were presented as not being right. DC again points out that the Multiverses are Infinite in size in narration and through direct author intent. Thats more substantial than what any character outside of the higher cosmics could really know.

I stated directly that you are having a temper tantrum, not implying it. Also, the fact that you said damn was not the reason, you merely assumed that.

Then why else would you assume I had a temper tantrum? All i did was make my argument that i disagreed with him being a gag character, you decided to make it weirdly personal for no reason.

Okay. Lucifer is literally not a god. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by pointing out that I said this, it's literally true. He is an angel, not a deity.

Lucifer is absolutely a god in the context of the DC Universe, being an Angel doesn't change his Godlike status. The literal only difference is semantics or trying to downplay. He ain't the capital G god, but he's a lot more than just some angel.

And? I was not referencing your emotions in order to disqualify your argument. That was another assumption you made. I referenced your emotions because it is tiring to have a discussion with someone who weaves in their adolescent frustration into every paragraph.

Listen, man, if you can't handle somewhat aggressive conversation and a dude saying some exaggerated words of mild annoyance on the internet without getting tired, then i don't know what to tell you.

I'm sorry i don't agree with your opinions, doesn't mean you need to get nasty about it for no reason.

If you didn't want to discuss it, you didn't have to reply to it.

I'm replying because you brought it up for your arguments, if you knew that it didn't matter to the argument, then you shouldn't have brought it up.

This is embarrassing.

Again, you're the one being unnecessarily aggressive over something so petty. How about we just drop the insults and actually debate the parts that we want to debate, ok?

 

[Jared1111]

Also (Sorry for the double post) but in relation to the size of the Dark Multiverse, it has also been confirmed to be infinite in size So arguments about the Dark Multiverse being smaller can also be debunked. The size and scope of the DC Multiverses are also ever-expanding to the characters, with more and more being revealed as time goes on. This shows that recent examples of the infinite size don't contradict the story, only the character's knowledge.

Plus, the Source Wall being the "edge" of the Universe (even though its also been described as the barrier of the Multiverse itself) DC shows that things with infinite size can have boundaries as well, Infinite doesn't always mean all encompassing and never ending in DC.

 

[Xearsay]

Also (Sorry for the double post) but in relation to the size of the Dark Multiverse, it has also been confirmed to be infinite in size So arguments about the Dark Multiverse being smaller can also be debunked. The size and scope of the DC Multiverses are also ever-expanding to the characters, with more and more being revealed as time goes on. This shows that recent examples of the infinite size don't contradict the story, only the character's knowledge.

Plus, the Source Wall being the "edge" of the Universe (even though its also been described as the barrier of the Multiverse itself) DC shows that things with infinite size can have boundaries as well, Infinite doesn't always mean all encompassing and never ending in DC.

About the Source Wall. It’s also called a seemingly infinite barrier as well.