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Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision

I’m ok with a Silver Age tier that puts him in Tier 4. Or a Superboy tier since he was already performing tier 4 feats since he was like 15.
 
Teezar said:
Since we all agreed all possible future as 2B then it should be multiversal without +.
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While this is usually true the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse has infinite amount of universes/timelines.

All possible futures within a infinite multiverse its more likely to be 2-A rather than just 2-B.

And there is also The Monitor be possibly 2-A due of what Jared say and Pre-Crisis Superman lobotomize Abstract Maaldor which would be used as support evidence.

So i personally think that potentially 2-A may more sense.
 
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Ok then.

I also say a Nairobi blog talking about infinite futures by braniac so it seems post-crisis or new 52.
 
So should we give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier, with 4-B as a minimum scaling from the solar system sneeze, 3-A as a medium scaling from the Big Bang feat, and 2-A as a maximum, scaling from the Maaldor, Jaxon, and Anti-Monitor confrontations for him and Supergirl, or use some other procedure?
 
Antvasima said:
So should we give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier, with 4-B as a minimum scaling from the solar system sneeze, 3-A as a medium scaling from the Big Bang feat, and 2-A as a maximum, scaling from the Maaldor, Jaxon, and Anti-Monitor confrontations for him and Supergirl, or use some other procedure?
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Varies has be rejected apparently, Pre-Crisis Supes simply be inconsistent isn't enough to justify giving him Varies.

Instead his new tiers would be this:

Stefano4444 said:
Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone, who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and killed a heavy weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to hurt Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Abstract Maaldor with great effort, who was stated that he was going to destroy all existence)
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I’m fine with an earlier Silver Age or Superboy tier, as Superboy has a lot of Tier 4 feats that cross over with Golden Ages Tier 4 feats as well.

The Multiverse stuff can come with the Bronze Age as that’s when all his higher tier stuff appears.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and killed a heavy weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Pushed himself toward the center of the big bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it. Repeatedly managed to hurt Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Abstract Maaldor with great effort, who was stated that he was going to destroy all existence)
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This seems good to me. And I also agree with giving him a Silver Age/Superboy key.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Varies has be rejected apparently, Pre-Crisis Supes simply be inconsistent isn't enough to justify giving him Varies.

Instead his new tiers would be this:
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Okay. You need to improve a bit on the sentence structures though, and we also need further input from knowledgeable members, given that this would be a quite major revision.
 
If this was accepted, it should also only affect Anti Monitor, Monitor, Darkseid, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, and potentially Supergirl for the 2-A tier. Everyone else should remain 2-C if they scale.
 
Krypto and Pre-Crisis Mongul would also scale. Possibly other characters as well.
 
Jared1111 said:
If this was accepted, it should also only affect Anti Monitor, Monitor, Darkseid, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, and potentially Supergirl for the 2-A tier. Everyone else should remain 2-C if they scale.
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It would affect Pre-Crisis Supergirl, Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan and Superboy-Prime as well.
 
Don't think it would affect Hal Jordan outside of 2-C, since the entirety of the Lantern Corps was needed to defeat Maaldor, plus Superman reversed an effect that also took multiple GL's to do. Superboy-Prime is also a younger Pre-Crisis Superman and only scales to Golden Age Superman directly, who was at best 2-C since he couldn't match Pre-Crisis in his later years.

I personally think the 2-A rating should be reserved for the top tier characters, especially since the Anti Monitor singled out both Superman and Supergirl as being the strongest heroes of their age. Dr. Fate being the exception, and he scales directly to his own 2-A feats.
 
Jared1111 said:
If this was accepted, it should also only affect Anti Monitor, Monitor, Darkseid, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, and potentially Supergirl for the 2-A tier. Everyone else should remain 2-C if they scale.
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I think Barry should scale too. He was stated to outright generate more energy when the anti matter cannon could take, and no one but him could stop it. Emotional peak Wally would be upgraded to 2-A too
 
Jared1111 said:
Don't think it would affect Hal Jordan outside of 2-C, since the entirety of the Lantern Corps was needed to defeat Maaldor, plus Superman reversed an effect that also took multiple GL's to do. Superboy-Prime is also a younger Pre-Crisis Superman and only scales to Golden Age Superman directly, who was at best 2-C since he couldn't match Pre-Crisis in his later years.
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But Hal Jordan had be potrayed as somewhat on the same league of Superman, it doesn't make much sense to me for him not have the 2-A.

And you may have a point for Superboy-Prime, what about when during Countdown? Should that version scale to Pre-Crisis since Prime was turned into an adult?

To be honest, Golden Age Superman should only be 2-C before COIE, since during the Infinite Crisis was clearly show to be far far weaker than Prime.
 
My apologies. I just saw that Confluctor and Firestorm808 had already replied.
 
Confluctor said:
Are there any other 2-B/2-A feats?
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Supergirl standing up to the Anti-Monitor, and Superman standing up to Maaldor, as well as his clash with Jaxon are the only potential 2-A feats that I know of. However, did we not downgrade the Anti-Monitor in his state before he absorbed infinite universes recently?
 
Antvasima said:
Supergirl standing up to Anti-Monitor, Superman standing up to Maaldor, and his clash with Jaxon are the only potential 2-A feats that I know of. However, did we not downgrade the Anti-Monitor in his state before he absorbed infinite universes recently?
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Yes, Base Anti-Monitor no longer scale to his Anti-Matter Waves, so he had been downgraded at 2-C instead.
 
Jared1111 said:
If this was accepted, it should also only affect Anti Monitor, Monitor, Darkseid, Time Trapper, Dr. Fate, and potentially Supergirl for the 2-A tier. Everyone else should remain 2-C if they scale.
Click to expand...
Stefano4444 said:
It would affect Pre-Crisis Supergirl, Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan and Superboy-Prime as well.
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I’m in agreement with these people scaling, as well as the other New Gods like Highfather and Orion.
 
Antvasima said:
Supergirl standing up to the Anti-Monitor, and Superman standing up to Maaldor, as well as his clash with Jaxon are the only potential 2-A feats that I know of. However, did we not downgrade the Anti-Monitor in his state before he absorbed infinite universes recently?
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Yeah so the anti monitor feat is out of the question. Which leaves only two potential feats on this level.

While I am not against the upgrade, but it's going to upgrade 90% of the high tiers of the verse to a level which is trillion times higher than their usual feats to say the least... I think we might need more than 2 or 3 feats to make this big of a change.

My memory of pre crisis is hazy, but what sort of feats did these characters after the ones mentioned above? Are they all on this level or lower? If the latter, then idk but I personally wouldn't go for an upgrade. The jump from 2C to 2A for most of the characters in the verse is insanely huge.
 
Confluctor said:
My memory of pre crisis is hazy, but what sort of feats did these characters after the ones mentioned above? Are they all on this level or lower? If the latter, then idk but I personally wouldn't go for an upgrade. The jump from 2C to 2A for most of the characters in the verse is insanely huge.
Click to expand...
I think you misunderstand, nobody its going to become fully 2-A, only that the justification for 2-C will change while 2-A will be add as a possibility.

Stefano4444 said:
Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and mortally wounded an extremely weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to harm Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad and later he was able to defeat him in his abstract form. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Abstract Maaldor with great effort, who at that point has grew so much that he was threatening all existence)
Click to expand...
 
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Of course not. I don't really like using outlier, hate that term. But I don't think it's also enough to scale everyone to 2A via this feat.

So that's why I think their future feats needs to be properly evaluated.


Or maybe we can do something like this, 2C, possibly 2A at his peak. And we only give this rating to characters who fought superman or the other character AFTER this event and it was shown that Superman was at his absolute peak.
 
Confluctor said:
While I am not against the upgrade, but it's going to upgrade 90% of the high tiers of the verse to a level which is trillion times higher than their usual feats to say the least... I think we might need more than 2 or 3 feats to make this big of a change.
Click to expand...
I agree

Per the overall thread, the reasoning in the OP is sound as to why the Maaldor feat doesn't quite work. I've said in the past that I don't feel that Anti-Monitor is tier 2 aside from the anti-matter wave, which isn't necessarily indicative of his personal attack power or durability so it shouldn't be scaled to. Nor do I believe that timelines should necessarily be equated to universes in terms of scaling due to how variably they are used in different settings and storylines. The timeline might represent a full independent reality, but in so many stories the way that one can damage a timeline or erase it doesn't always equate to a universe-destruction level of power.

I recognize however that this is not what is usually accepted here, so within that framework I agree that 2-C, possibly 2-B/2-A would suffice, but I lean towards Confluctor's assessment that the feats are too few and far between.
 
But one of the main reasons AM was downgraded to 2-C was because of him getting hurt by Supergirl, who with these changes wouldn’t even be 2-C to begin with.

Honestly the explanation for the AM Wave not directly scaling to AM, despite multiple explanations in the comics themselves that the AM wave was created by the Anti Monitor himself and that each Universe absorbed directly affected the AMs power level. The downgrading of the wave was made to justify him getting hurt by Supergirl, not the other way around

Also, no disrespect, but how can 3 solid 2-A feats “not be good enough” to make him 2-A, but 1 shaky 2-C feat that wasn’t even a 2-C feat be used to justify half of the Pre-Crisis characters scaling? Again it seems like an excuse not to have the tiers be there when the scaling itself only goes to the higher end DC characters to begin with and works fine.
 
Deagonx said:
I agree

Per the overall thread, the reasoning in the OP is sound as to why the Maaldor feat doesn't quite work. I've said in the past that I don't feel that Anti-Monitor is tier 2 aside from the anti-matter wave, which isn't necessarily indicative of his personal attack power or durability so it shouldn't be scaled to. Nor do I believe that timelines should necessarily be equated to universes in terms of scaling due to how variably they are used in different settings and storylines. The timeline might represent a full independent reality, but in so many stories the way that one can damage a timeline or erase it doesn't always equate to a universe-destruction level of power.

I recognize however that this is not what is usually accepted here, so within that framework I agree that 2-C, possibly 2-B/2-A would suffice, but I lean towards Confluctor's assessment that the feats are too few and far between.
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Also (Sorry for double posting) but a lot of this is outright wrong.

How can you not feel the Anti-Monitor being Tier 2 outside the AM wave, when he is directly superior to a beyond weakened Monitor who with the literal droplets of his power was strong enough to merge 2 entire universes and their timelines into another dimension beyond the scope of the AM wave. That was a Monitor who was literally on his deathbed, and the Anti Monitor himself directly states he had sapped most of that power to begin with. Again, multiple times it is stated that the Universes themselves represent Monitors Powers, and both can be used interchangeably even by the AM himself

Also, arguing that we can't accept "timelines as being equated to other universes" is not only contradictory to how timelines and diverging realities have been treated in DC since the '60s, it also contradicts the very story that came from since that alternate timeline is directly mentioned as its own separate universe with its own numbered earth. There's no ambiguity that the story and DC itself show alternate futures as parallel dimensions.
 
Jared1111 said:
Honestly the explanation for the AM Wave not directly scaling to AM, despite multiple explanations in the comics themselves that the AM wave was created by the Anti Monitor himself
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It's not that he didn't create the wave per se, (though the explanation that he converted Antimatter into Energy doesn't strongly support a rating rather than a transmutation feat), it's that creating a giant wave that can destroy infinite universes doesn't mean anyone who fights and beats you needs to be 2-A to do so. The destruction of the universes was a function of the fact that anti-matter destroys positive matter, so he set off a chain reaction of anti-matter destroying positive matter.

This information, no matter how generously you interpret it, doesn't tell us how hard of a punch he can take, or how powerful his blasts are in a 1v1 fight. Especially considering the anti-feats that he has. Such as the fact that he needed to build an anti-matter cannon to destroy the five remaining universes. Why would a guy who can destroy infinite universes at will have to tell his lackeys to create a cannon to finish the job? It was the delay in him doing this that ultimately saw him defeated.

When positive matter universes were destroyed, the antimatter universe expanded to fill the void left behind. The wave grew with each universe it destroyed, but none of this information necessitates the notion that Anti-Monitor himself can withstand an attack that could destroy infinite universes, nor that he could accomplish a 2-A attack in a battle setting against a 2-A opponent. That's where the discrepancy lies.

Jared1111 said:
How can you not feel the Anti-Monitor being Tier 2 outside the AM wave, when he is directly superior to a beyond weakened Monitor who with the literal droplets of his power was strong enough to merge 2 entire universes and their timelines into another dimension beyond the scope of the AM wave.
Click to expand...
Because I have no framework to meaningfully translate the power it takes to merge/move universes with the power it takes to destroy one. Likewise, a feat affecting infinite universes can be High 3-A. If these are just regular 4d Spacetime Continuums, even if they were infinitely sized (and they are not), that would be High 3-A


Jared1111 said:
Again, multiple times it is stated that the Universes themselves represent Monitors Powers, and both can be used interchangeably even by the AM himself
Click to expand...
Yes, but being powered by a universe does not mean it gives you the power to destroy a universe. Likewise, see above. These universes aren't infinite, and can't provide infinite power if adding more universes increases their power. Which means how much power they have can't be equated to universe destroying.


Jared1111 said:
Also, arguing that we can't accept "timelines as being equated to other universes" is not only contradictory to how timelines and diverging realities have been treated in DC since the '60s
Click to expand...
Arguing that this is some all-encompassing consistent thing is just dishonest. Likewise, I'm not talking about how they are treated or referred to, I am referring to how much power is required to destroy them vs destroying an actual universe. It varies a great deal. Time Trapper using the green lanterns power in the "time dimension" to wipe out a bunch of timelines might not necessarily take a level of power necessary to destroy an actual universes. A spacetime continuum has a time dimension of it's own, so if you wipe out a bunch of timelines from the time dimension, that suggests these "parallel worlds" don't have a proper 4th dimension of their own.

Likewise, interpreting it this way causes more confusion. If Superman and Jaxon have the power to destroy infinite universes, or recreate infinite universes, what makes Anti Monitor so big and terrible? Shouldn't Supes be as strong as him, if not stronger? When the big bad villain of the era is, at best, purportedly 2-A, it becomes less reasonable to interpret Superman's feat as 2-A, especially considering these "universes" were actually just timelines.
 
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