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All possible future could be 2B or 2A based on how people take it.
Since you don't wanna downgrade him again shouldn't it be reworded as pre-crisis superman revision CRT?
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Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision
- Thread starter Stefano4444
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Since you don't wanna downgrade him again shouldn't it be reworded as pre-crisis superman revision CRT?
Stefano4444
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You may be right.
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Yeah, I personally think the all-possible-futures is 2-B, since that implies constantly branching off timelines without it being flat infinite.
Isnt the 4-B sneeze done when he was amped by Mxy? I guess t wouldn't be a huge issue since I believe he has other Tier 4 stuff pretty casually though.
Isnt the 4-B sneeze done when he was amped by Mxy? I guess t wouldn't be a huge issue since I believe he has other Tier 4 stuff pretty casually though.
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Do we consider Superman's Big Bang feat to be Tier 2?
Stefano4444
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No, since the Big Bang its treated as an physical explosion.
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I was wondering why you put that in the 2-C justification you made.
Stefano4444
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It still one of his highest feats, i thought it was still worthy enough to be mention in anycase.
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Silver Age Superman's solar system sneeze is only like 4-C; he doesn't quite destroy it and simply blows it away. Which still requires moving the GBE of all the celestial bodies but even so. It's not like an omnidirectional explosion that nuked the solar system. And I don't know if it was Mr Mxy, but it was some wizard type character who used some magic powder to do it.
But not particularly relevant though since they scale from better feats.
But not particularly relevant though since they scale from better feats.
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Are we splitting silver and bronze age?
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Well, not proposing era split; Though, those are sub eras of Pre-Crisis IRL. I actually wasn't sure if it was Pre-Crisis or Silver Age Superman character. There's still multiple Supermen even back then who are often nicknamed differently. It happened in a comic written during the Silver Age is what I meant but not sure which character it was.
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(Feat from Action Comics #273)
Mister Mxyzptlk dumped sneezing powder all over Metropolis. The powder isn’t stated to amp those it affects to 4-B (normal people inhale it and don’t blow up the solar system).
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I'm legit seeing it get destroyed based on the scan maverick posted.
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I'm mostly going off what FanofRPGs said. And Superman might say "He's destroying it" but we still see the planets getting blown away.
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Moving the contents of a solar system still sounds Tier 4, but no, Superman’s sneeze totally blew them up.
Stefano4444
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Are you sure? It looks like to me that the planets in the scan were be destroyed by the sneeze rather than moved away.
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I want to point out the "2-C" feat being down here was when the Monitor was literally on his death bed and was drained of nearly all of his energy, as the AM had absorbed almost all the Multiverse at that point and the Monitors power directly comes form the Multiverse itself
The AM was fighting a peak form Monitor who had the entirety of an Infinite Multiverse at his disposal and he still was only equal to the AM at that time, the AM during the events of COIE was even stronger.
Even then, the AM that Supergirl fought still soundly defeated Superman when he had the chance, and only when Supergirl literally through everything she had at him at full power did she manage to actually hurt his physical form, and she died in one good shot once the AM had a chance. Nothing implies the AM's physical form got stronger, so at best she was hurting his 2-A physical form which withstood attacks from a potentially 2-A Monitor.
Now whether Kal-L is Low 2-C during the events of Infinite Crisis is up for debate, but he's obviously way weaker than he was in the Silver Age, who is already way weaker than Kal-El was in the Bronze Age. Either way, we should probably only scale Kal-L to Low 2-C at best, and that wouldn't scale to anyone else besides Superboy-Prime for now.
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(Sorry for the double post)
Yeah, i think a 2-B, Possibly 2-A tier is fine for all possible timelines and for the AM feats. This should also only apply to higher end DC characters like Darkseid, Dr Fate (Classic), Time Trapper, Anti Monitor, and the Green Lanterns (though obviously not by themselves).
Stefano4444
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So what are you saying The Monitor's using the energies from all infinite Positive Matter Universes should actually make him 2-A rather than 2-C?
Are there any more evidence about The Monitor having Multiversal+ power? Because that alone may not be enough.
After all the Flash's power come from the Speed Force, but that doesn't make him regularly Multiverse level+, as it can only be that strong in certain circumstances.
Same with Shazam or Juggernaut, just because their strength come from gods its doesn't automatically make the two as strong as them.
Also if we go with that Tier then the 2-C it not simply going to be replaced with 2-A just like that, Pre-Crisis upper limit will simply be downgraded to Low 2-C.
Which would result in this rating:
Varies. Solar System level (Destroyed an entire solar system with a sneeze. Can quickly make a star go supernova with his heat vision. Comparable to Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan) up to Universe level+ (Comparable to Pre-Crisis Supergirl. Comparable to Superboy-Prime during Final Crisis. Pushed himself toward the center of the big bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it. Repeatedly managed to hurt Maaldor the Darklord, who turn himself into a living universe), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power causing all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper to be restored in his clash with Jaxxon).
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DragonLord
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I don’t think it’s written like that for the Superman pages. For the current Post-Crisis page we have “Large Planet Level, Solar System Level at Peak”
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I agree with this.
Stefano4444
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To be honest i prefer the way Thor and Hulk's profiles are written.
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I agree with the Variable Tier for Supes.
DragonLord
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Thor’s is the same as Superman
Stefano4444
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I still stand to my believe that tiering Superman (and most Marvel/DC characters in general) in that way would be more correct overall.
Aside for him holding back his strength against most villains/heroes, there are also to consider the many inconsistencies that superhero stories often have in term of power levels.
This its especially true of his Pre-Crisis version, which its even more inconsistent than his modern versions.
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DragonLord
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By the Way. Since the 2-C feat is the netherverse creation and merging. Wouldn’t harbinger merging 3 earths into the netherverse be higher and noteworthy?. I’d assume Anti Monitor Scales above her
Stefano4444
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bump
Stefano4444
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Harbinger? Can you show the related scans?
If she did with her own power and she was potrayed as comparable to other Pre-Crisis heroes, then yes i guess it could be used as more evidence for 2-C.
DragonLord
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Stefano4444
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Nice, we are not necessarely forced to rely on the scaling with Monitor and Anti-Monitor to keep the 2-C.
Assuming it can be proven that Pre-Crisis Superman (or other Pre-Crisis heroes) are comparable to Harbinger in raw strength.
I have also take a look back on the story and apparently her copy (the one who did the 2-C) was the one who mortally wounded The Monitor.
However The Monitor actually foreseen that and used his death to power the machines that would pull Earth-1 and Earth-2 into the Netherverse.
Meaning Harbinger doesn't necessarily scale to Anti-Monitor.
Pre-Crisis Superman ≥ Pre-Crisis Supergirl ≤ Base Anti-Monitor > Weakened Monitor > Harbinger = 2-C.
Assuming it can be proven that Pre-Crisis Superman (or other Pre-Crisis heroes) are comparable to Harbinger in raw strength.
I have also take a look back on the story and apparently her copy (the one who did the 2-C) was the one who mortally wounded The Monitor.
However The Monitor actually foreseen that and used his death to power the machines that would pull Earth-1 and Earth-2 into the Netherverse.
Meaning Harbinger doesn't necessarily scale to Anti-Monitor.
Pre-Crisis Superman ≥ Pre-Crisis Supergirl ≤ Base Anti-Monitor > Weakened Monitor > Harbinger = 2-C.
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I mean, the argument comes from the fact that it was the ultimate battle to decide the fate of the entire Multiverse. The AM and Monitor were directly implied to battle with all their might, enough that it knocked both of them into a deep sleep for millennia.
Flash or Shazam is also not a fair comparison because the Flash and the Juggernaut don't always have full control over their power or where they get their power from, Flash certainly isn't using all of his power when fighting guys like Captain Cold, but he has been shown to push himself too much higher levels when he taps into more and more energy. Arguing we can only scale for "certain conditions" doesn't apply to the Anti Monitor here because those certain conditions are met because they were throwing everything they had at each other, and there's no reason to believe they weren't.
The monitor wasn't getting his power from a God (at least back in the original Mini-Series), he was directly drawing his power from "all positive matter" in the Multiverse, and the power is directly correlated to the Universes themselves, AM even mentions the Universes and "his power" interchangeably multiple times. And its directly stated that even individual universes lost, substantially weaken him.
The argument of downscaling him to 2-C, when said 2-C feat was down literally on his death bed with only 2-5 universes left in existence, and still being able to pull entire dimensional spaces into a realm he created out of pure exhaustion shouldn't be used as his baseline strength.
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I need to point out something about Jaxon the Mighty feat. Some people have pointed out that is could be time hax, since the lantern energy had to enter the time dimension. Now, it was said to be energy on Clark's end, and the lantern energy did blatantly wipe all futures out, but still, worth pointing out.
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Tbh, Superman's tier 4 feats are extremely, EXTREMELY casual, so idk if we need a lower tier
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The thing about that is that it the story doesn't mention the ring energy stopping the universes from existing, it literally caused them to cease to exist and the only way was to counter the energy itself to restore all the universes. Either way, the mere energy output of both Jaxon and Superman was enough to counter the effect of a higher 4D dimensional power, enough to restore an near infinite number of timelines, and they were able to do this without going to the time dimension. The ring energy only got redirected to hit the time dimension, meaning it still would've had to been 4D in nature.
Either way, Superman's power was able to counter an effect that was erasing all possible timelines (and all possible earths, seeing how the earth in the story was Earth 295, an alternate earth and alternate timeline) so he was effectively restoring a large portion of an infinite multiverse. Time shenanigans or not.
Stefano4444
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Well Pre-Crisis Superman its still highly inconsistent when it come with power levels, probably more than most versions of Superman.
That its why, if it is decide to apply a Varies in his profile, his lowest end tier should be 4-B.
DragonLord
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You’re not allowed to put Varies just because of character inconsistency
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Most of his Tier 4 stuff is really casual or done when he was much younger or before the Bronze age, that's when he started getting his tier 3 and 2 stuff. Its not really inconsistent if its clearly not his best feats.
Especially stuff like the Supernova or the Super Sneeze, which only dazed him for a microinstant and the other was... y'know... a sneeze.
Stefano4444
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I see, then there is no reason to have a Varies, we will simply tier Pre-Crisis like this:
Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Harbinger's clone, who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and killed a heavy weakened Monitor. Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Repeatedly manage to hurt Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it), possibly Multiverse level+ (Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxxon. Manage to lobotomize Abstract Maaldor with great effort, who was stated that he was going to destroy all existence)
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