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Pre-Crisis Superman's 2-C Revision

Stefano4444

Stefano4444

He/Him
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Currently Pre Crisis Superman's tier its based on the assumption that he scale to Maaldor in his Abstract Form, however i did notice some issues in that scaling.

While Pre Crisis Superman has fought Maaldor, that Maaldor its not the same one that was threating to destroy the many surrounding realities, and it was actually stated that Maaldor's power and madness had be increased since he time had turn himself intro a living universe.

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Basically this its the same issue Infinite Zamasu had, who was going to become 2-C eventually, but the one Goku and friends had fought was only Low 2-C (far above baseline yes, but still Low 2-C).

And i couldn't find anything that show Superman actually fought Abstract Maaldor in any shape or form, the best he did was lobotomize him (at show in Madness in a Dark Dimension!), but this was done only because Joker was keeping occupied.

Unless someone can find more evidence for Maaldor to be 2-C while he was physical facing Superman, or for Superman to scale to Abstract Maaldor, that scaling its highly iffy/questionable.
 
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Firestorm808 said:
We could scale him to Pre-Crisis Hal.
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Could work, however there its a issue with that as well.

Because if i'm remember correctly (correct me if i damn wrong), that 2-C feat its technically a 2-B/2-A feat, which had be downgraded to 2-C and turn as a support feat for Pre Crisis Superman's 2-C, as otherwise would have be considered an outlier.
 
This makes sense if he never fought a version of him that had the 2-C feat, though I think he also scaled off of Superboy Prime? Or was that the other way around as I only recall Superboy could destroy universes/dimensions one by one via "Hours of constant punching" and think his 2-C rating also seemed dependant on power scaling. Unless I'm missing him also having other scaling notes.

But Pre-Crisis Hal also should have his justifications altered if he has his own 2-C or Low 2-C feats.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
This makes sense if he never fought a version of him that had the 2-C feat, though I think he also scaled off of Superboy Prime? Or was that the other way around as I only recall Superboy could destroy universes/dimensions one by one via "Hours of constant punching" and think his 2-C rating also seemed dependant on power scaling. Unless I'm missing him also having other scaling notes.
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Yes Pre Crisis Superman scale off of Superboy-Prime, however Superboy-Prime has only Low 2-C feats and no scaling from any other 2-C characters.

And yes, Superboy-Prime's 2-C its also depend of scaling from Pre-Crisis Superman.
 
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If we do agree that 2-C its no longer valid, i do still think that we would only downgraded Pre-Crisis Superman to either "At least Low 2-C" or just "Low 2-C".

After all, while overall weaken than Maaldor the Darklord, when he had still a physical body, he was still able to harm him and fought him for an extend period of time, and Maaldor up to his "death" still did turn himself intro a new universe, which would still make Pre-Crisis Superman remaining at Tier 2.

Also while i did say that Pre-Crisis Superman was only able to lobotomize Abstract Maaldor, this can still be used as support evidence for him to still be at least baseline Low 2-C, if not even above.

Also Pre-Crisis Superman its comparable, if not a bit stronger than, Pre-Crisis Supergirl, who fought Blackstarr (a woman who had control over the universe in every aspect), other to briefly overpower Anti-Monitor during the COEI in a fit of rage, which its still impressive since AM its comparable to The Monitor (who performed a 2-C feat while dying), so while not enough to suggest that she was as strong as AM, it should still justify for her to be above baseline Low 2-C.

Same with Pre-Crisis Shazam (as Pre-Crisis Superman scale to him as well), who defeated the Invincible Man, who was stated to have the power of the Big Bang itself.
 
The DC Comics considers Big Bang a 3-A feat since time and space existed before the Big Bang and the comics portrays it as just a generic big explosion that formed the celestial bodies. But some of the other stuff not related to the Big Bang seem fine; Pre-Crisis Hal still had a Universal reset feat iirc and Superboy Prime still has some Low 2-C feats of his own. I think Low 2-C is fine.
 
The thing about the Maaldor feat is that it isn't even a 2-C feat, since it specifically mentions that its gonna destroy "All neighboring dimensions, and destroy all of existence"

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Joker using Maaldors powers even directly mentions the destruction of the Multiverse itself

E0d0V--VGcfs6vxLa2OJ6eip9os0m2z6TYresAB6OgN4aDWNTZcSNWNvXExH1M-ur_sTFjrGUv9J5iBNjd_nW-9KCt1U9jpO5l4kba3QdcDdF4z-VqQ6B5uSw7KgS9wDlSm9YnkI5g=s1600


and the DC Multiverse has been stated to be Infinite even as far back as the 60's

53841484_2089242761144670_5847924597176926208_n.jpg


So the feat itself was never gonna be a 2-C only feat to begin with, it was always presented as a Multiversal level threat. Plus Superman was able to take direct hits from the Maaldor in the realm and even though Joker did distract him, he was able to momentarily overpower Maaldor enough to break through his defenses though take that as you will

Funnily enough, the next time Maaldor actually fought beings in this form it was the Green Lantern Corps, even directly mentioning his fights with Superman (also mentioning his dimension was "beyond time" if that means anything to you) and it took the combined might of multiple Green Lanterns to defeat Maaldor in a one on one fight, The Guardian even mentions that it outright destroyed both of them.

The same Green Lanterns combined might also be responsible for the Jaxxon feat, which destroyed all of Earth's alternate timelines (which also means alternate earths/universes and what not) which also would be infinite.

I honestly forget where the 2-C standard even came from, since both of his multi-universal feats are both very clearly at least 2-B, possibly 2-A.
 
Jared1111 said:
So the feat itself was never gonna be a 2-C only feat to begin with, it was always presented as a Multiversal level threat.
Click to expand...
I actually didn't notice it, although it was going to happen overtime and he was stopped before he could do that, but you're right about the feat be above 2-C.

Jared1111 said:
I honestly forget where the 2-C standard even came from, since both of his multi-universal feats are both very clearly at least 2-B, possibly 2-A.
Click to expand...
Probably because it was consider an outlier to be inconsistent, and i do admit that i too agreed on that notion at that time.
 
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My personal opinion is that either the Jaxon, Maaldor, GL Corps, and Supergirl fighting the AM could either be considered 2-B/2-A feats and used to upgrade them, or not use them at all.

Its odd to be completely fine accepting the feats, until they hit an arbitrary limit on how Multiversal they are, then suddenly they don’t count.

So maybe If this isn’t the time, I should make a thread about potential upgrades because we need a discussion definitively on whether on not these fears count.
 
I think we should just stick to the Low 2-C feats and not use the Multiversal feat from someone far above everyone else.
 

Silver Age Superman Family​

Bronze Age Superman Family​

 
Looks like he’d be going down to 3-B if the feats between Low 2-C and Multiversal are considered unusable
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think we should just stick to the Low 2-C feats and not use the Multiversal feat from someone far above everyone else.
Click to expand...
Thing is that Maaldor wasn't even that above everyone else like I said Superman confronted him on two separate occasions and yeah he was distracted, his heat vision directly started to pierce his defenses and nullified his consciousness across an entire dimension that was considered above time and space. Then he lost in a direct fight with a combined Green Lantern Corps, who mentioned before, Superman does scale to not only through Hal Jordan but through the Jaxon feat.

Even if Maaldor is considered superior, which he is, it doesn't mean that Superman can't scale to him since he took direct hits from Maaldor even in his dimensional form and was able to resist Maaldors influence and pierce his defenses. Obviously, ain't 1 to 1 but enough for Phantom Stranger to consider him enough of a help to recruit him to stop Maaldor.

There's other potential scaling for Dr. Fate/Ultraman as well which should at least constitute a 2-C rating. It doesn't ruin down either scaling since as Firestorm mentioned, later years Kal-L was considered weaker to Kal-El in power and most of the Maaldor feats come from that later point in the Pre-Crisis Universe (1984-1985) in which both Kal-L got weaker/Kal-El got stronger. So characters like Superboy Prime or even most of the Silver Age cast wouldn't scale directly to Superman because he was already way stronger than anyone else outside of other Kryptonians like Supergirl, who was able to to take on the Anti Monitor (who was primarily brought down to 2-C because of his fight with Supergirl) with arguable 2-A feats beside that.

I feel like we screw up a lot of Pre-Crisis scaling because of the weird obsession with not allowing some Pre-Crisis characters to hit an arbitrary tier list because it "breaks canon" but plenty of Supermans Pre-Crisis enemies/friends are arguably already 2-B to 2-A anyway. Maaldor is, Time Trapper arguably is because of not only his 2-B/2-A feats but the Jaxon feat, the Green Lantern Corps are from scaling to Maaldor and the Jaxon feat, Darkseid and Mordru should scale from the Time Trapper so that should count. Most of the Justice League already scale below Superman anyway in Pre-Crisis and barely register as a threat to him so that shouldn't ruin scaling.

Maybe i'm missing something, but we were perfectly fine with using only 1 2-C feat to justify Superman being 2-C, but when theres arguably a decent list of his 2-B/2-A abilities we immediately dismiss all of them as outliers, including the feats we were perfectly fine using before hand. It just seems dumb.
 
How about we do a compromise similar how we did with Marvel Odin? Had a possibility for Superman highest ends, something like this:

At least Universe level+/Low 2-C, possibly Multiverse level/2-B.
 
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The Feats listed on the Page always seemed to just be Low 2-C at best to me (maybe due to lack of proper wording on the page or poor reading on my part) so I would agree to Low 2-C. Maybe the “Possibly 2-B/2-A” like mentioned above
 
Actually, i may have found something that could keep 2-C rating for Pre Crisis Superman, because i have taken a look back to COIE, and perhaps we can simply scale Base Anti-Monitor to Pre Crisis Superman.

While it was true that AM did defeat him in combat, it seen like AM did attack Superman from behind and use the element of surprise to keep attacking him, leaving no way for Supes to defend himself while Doctor Light was simply too weak to help.

(here, here, here and here).

However in the case of Supergirl, both of them equally match each other in raw strength and she was able to severely destroy AM's armor, and she only die because she was distracted by Doctor Light and AM use that at his advantage.

(here, here, here and here).

And this seen legitimate, since Base AM fight don't fight anyone else after this, as the next time he fight he had already absorb his Anti-Matter Universe, at that point of the story his strength easily surclass most Pre Crisis heroes.
 
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Basically the 2-C for Pre Crisis Superman could remain, however the justification will have to change, same with some other characters.

As proven above the scaling with Base Maaldor its iffy due of the former be potrayed much stronger than Supes and that he may not have been 2-C/2-B during that fight.

While the scaling from Base Anti-Monitor seen to be much more solid thanks of his fight with Pre Crisis Supergirl, so we don't have the same issues.

So the new rating should be like this:

Low Multiverse level/2-C (Comparable or slightly stronger than Pre-Crisis Supergirl. Pushed himself toward the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it. Comparable to the original Captain Marvel, who defeated Invincible Man who had the power of the Big Bang itself. Comparable to Superboy-Prime), possibly Multiverse level/2-B (For the reasons given by Jared).
 
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Seems fine to me. Obviously keeping Low 2-C /2-C as a baseline works just fine, especially for earlier in his career, but his higher ends can also work as him exerting himself as all instances of his 2-B/2-A feats against other characters come in late in his career and pushed him to his limits. Same with Supergirl vs AM as that was literally her final fight and AM already potentially scales to 2-A through his fights with the Monitor, who already has 2-A potential.

And again, doesn’t backscale to Kal-L since at that point he was already weaker than Kal-El, same with any character that scales to him like Superboy-Prime. Nor the other JL members other than maybe Hal and that’s through the other GL corps feats against Maaldor and Time Trapper/Jaxon.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Actually, i may have found something that could keep 2-C rating for Pre Crisis Superman, because i have taken a look back to COIE, and perhaps we can simply scale Base Anti-Monitor to Pre Crisis Superman.

While it was true that AM did defeat him in combat, it seen like AM did attack Superman from behind and use the element of surprise to keep attacking him, leaving no way for Supes to defend himself while Doctor Light was simply too weak to help.

(here, here, here and here).

However in the case of Supergirl, both of them equally match each other in raw strength and she was able to severely destroy AM's armor, and she only die because she was distracted by Doctor Light and AM use that at his advantage.

(here, here, here and here).

And this seen legitimate, since Base AM fight don't fight anyone else after this, as the next time he fight he had already absorb his Anti-Matter Universe, at that point of the story his strength easily surclass most Pre Crisis heroes.
Click to expand...
Sorry for the double post, but actually one of the reasons for Anti Monitors downgrade to 2-C was BECAUSE of his fight with Supergirl, people argued that because he was severely hurt by a 2-C character he should be 2-C, however with the scaling of the higher end feats and the do or die nature of the fight between Supergirl and him you could argue it aims higher.

Anti Monitor already has 2-A feats in his arsenal, the AM wave itself, and his fights with the Monitor being a debatable 2-A feat since the Monitor himself had the power of all Positive Matter throughout the entire Multiverse.

Honestly, most of the scaling of the higher-end characters would be affected by this, not only through Superman. Time Trapper/GL's feats alone mean that characters like Mordru, Doctor Fate, Darkseid, and AM should all scale a bit higher than 2-B seeing how they're all comparable if not outright superior to Time Trapper and he casually redirected a 2-B/2-A attack from the GL Corps. Maaldor would also scale since it took the combined might of the GL Corps to take him down, and was already potentially 2-B/2-A before. Once again, this doesn't downscale to anyone but those that affected those characters, so the other JL members or even Legion have no part in it, only the higher ends. We had these characters at 2-B before but because of this odd back scaling all the way down to Time Trapper/Superman we downgraded them when Time Trapper/Superman arguably have higher-end feats.

Again, at least a "Possibly 2-B/2-A" rating would be fine, because I think it's a shame so much of Pre-Crisis DC is shafted because of the strange interconnected Superman/Time Trapper comparisons when neither feats are 2-C alone. This also doesn't really concern Post-Crisis characters unless they directly relate to the Pre-Crisis counterparts.
 
So just to make sure. What’s the 2-C feat were talking about here?, and why would it be 2-B. all I’m seeing is ether Low 2-C or 2-A
 
Jared1111 said:
And again, doesn’t backscale to Kal-L since at that point he was already weaker than Kal-El, same with any character that scales to him like Superboy-Prime. Nor the other JL members other than maybe Hal and that’s through the other GL corps feats against Maaldor and Time Trapper/Jaxon.
Click to expand...
To be honest i don't think Kal-L should ever be Tier 2 during the Infinite Crisis, it doesn't make sense for him to be as strong in the story.

Superboy-Prime could easily overpower him like every other heroes, when logically speaking he should had be able to holding him off instead.

Post-Crisis Superman could fight in on par when the gap of strength would never allow it to happen in the first place.

Personally his profile need another Key for him during Infinite Crisis and having him be just as strong as Post-Crisis Superman.

DragonLord said:
So just to make sure. What’s the 2-C feat were talking about here?, and why would it be 2-B. all I’m seeing is ether Low 2-C or 2-A
Click to expand...
The 2-C come from The Monitor who created a Netherverse which absorbed Earth 1 and Earth 2's universes on his deathbed.

The Monitor and Anti-Monitor were equal in strength/power and Pre-Crisis Supergirl could fight him and heavely destroy his armor.

And for the 2-B and 2-A feats you can simply read what Jade has write before.
 
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Jared1111 said:
Anti Monitor already has 2-A feats in his arsenal, the AM wave itself, and his fights with the Monitor being a debatable 2-A feat since the Monitor himself had the power of all Positive Matter throughout the entire Multiverse.
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I remember that was deemed that Anti-Monitor's regular AP should not scale to his Anti-Matter Wave.
 
For what it's worth, there's a handful of Tier 3/2 Pre-Crisis Green Lantern feats that can probably be used now. Arkis iirc defeated an alien that destroyed universes for example.

Honestly I don't know why we're so coy on his rating. The 2-A feats are done when they're at their peak, and scales to only the strongest people. We can just rate them 'Varies, typically whatver, up to 2-A' or somtehing like we do for Post-Crisis and will eventually do for Flashpoint.
 
Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
Honestly I don't know why we're so coy on his rating. The 2-A feats are done when they're at their peak, and scales to only the strongest people. We can just rate them 'Varies, typically whatver, up to 2-A' or somtehing like we do for Post-Crisis and will eventually do for Flashpoint.
Click to expand...
I'm not completely sure about having a Varies, i would rather go with my original proposal.

Even that, with Varies his lowest tier possible isn't going to be 2-C, as his most consistent low to mid end feats put him at 4-B.

Like destroy a solar system with a sneeze and moving Earth at FTL speeds.

So if we go with the Varies, the most accurate way to place him would be like this:

Varies. Solar System level up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+.
 
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The varies is there because these characters are not going to be using their full might in every scenario, because that would be disastrous and likely end in lots of death. Since Tier 2 is pretty consistently their peak, I think that could be what we rate their peak strength at.

And there is no way the Jaxon feat is lower than 2-B since the wording explicitly states "all possible futures".
 
Amelia_Lonelyheart said:
The varies is there because these characters are not going to be using their full might in every scenario, because that would be disastrous and likely end in lots of death. Tier 2 is pretty consistently their peak, I think that could be what we rate their peak strength at.
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At his peak yes, however if you go and check the majority of Pre Crisis feats are between Tier 5 to Tier 4, too many to be ignored as low end outliers.

And the same can be apply with other Pre-Crisis heroes, a good chuck of Hal Jordan feats are around Tier 4 rather than Tier 2.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Lantern Corps Feats Timeline Project

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

comicvine.gamespot.com

Green Lantern Corps Feat List and Sources (Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, New 52, and Rebirth) - Hal Jordan - Comic Vine

These are the Green Lantern feats that I found and sourced so far. I would appreciate any help in finding and sourcing any more feats.Solar System lev
comicvine.gamespot.com comicvine.gamespot.com

So if we have to apply the Varies, it would be more accurate to have Pre-Crisis Superman at 4-B as low end and 2-C as upper end, with 2-A as a possibility.
 
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