Power Nullification, Resistance Negation, and Negation

[Promestein]

We should only have one page for this, Power Nullification. Negation is literally the same, and I've seen nothing to differentiate them at all, they're used interchangeably and inconsistently, and Resistance Negation is just a type of Power Nullification that is also used inconsistently and interchangeably. I don't think it's distinct enough to warrant its own page, just an explanation on Power Nullification.

 

[Jobbo]

Are you getting rid of the former two, then?

 

[Promestein]

That is what this post suggests, yes.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Sounds about right.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't feel like Resistance Negation would be the same power as Power Nullification. There is a difference between bypassing resistances and shutting down a power.

Negation just seems like a broad thing that includes both, but it does seem rather unused and useless.

 

[Agnaa]

Are you getting rid of the former two, then?

Assuming the post's not suggesting this, and is suggesting getting rid of the latter two, I agree.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think resistence negation and power nullification are different enough concepts that they should have different pages, but I do agree with the other stuff.

Resistence Negation is distinct enough and actually a bit more complicated in its application, so it should stay separate

Especially because, as far as I can tell, we do not accept that standard power null will work on resistances. Resistances are almost a different beast from your standard ability, so the negation of such should be treated differently with it's own page

 

[Promestein]

It's just a type of Power Nullification. Resistance is still a power (and it's not being bypassed, it's being negated; the pages make a distinction).

 

[Jobbo]

Most of the pages with Resistance Negation on them have it for bypassing resistance.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We still have powers for sub-powers of other things. Here, I feel like Power Null is way too broad of a power for characters who just nullify resistances. It should stay imo.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The negation page should probably be deleted. That being said, there are characters who negate resistance to power nullification.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I agree with @Saikou

On one hand you are bypassing resistances, but on the other you are nullifying powers.

 

[Promestein]

Which is dumb. Overpowering a resistance =/= nullifying it outright. I think the existence of this page is partially responsible for this misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

Yeah, I know. I think the pages should be combined (and I also think we should have a lot less powers and abilities pages) but if so many people disagree I'm fine with it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Unless we say that power null would work on standard resistance, resistance negation should be treated as it's own thing. Resistances are not a power like something like fire manip or flight is a power. They are not something you use on their own, they are a passive thing which basically just means that a specific effect either works less or won't work on you

 

[Promestein]

"Unless we say that power null would work on standard resistance"

Nobody's saying that. That also implies that the page somehow suggests that all Power Nullification is equal, which it doesn't, and Power Nullification is already used to describe abilities that negate passive effects, such as Regenerationn. It's just a distinct type that should be specified as distinct on both the character's page and on the page itself.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Can you give an example of what the power null page would look like if this went through

 

[Promestein]

I doubt it would look much different, save for the types. I'd elaborate on certain types of Power Null, such as directly countering spells (a la Goetia), anti-magic, anti-supernatural in general, Regenerationn negation, and resistance negation.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Prom

I know, and because no one is, it should not be a seperate page. I wasnt claiming anyone was, in fact that is part of my reason.

Regen is again something you do. I was more focused on the fact that resistence is not an action, and I would consider regen as the previous kind of power as apposed to the latter. My point is that resistance is almost a different beast entirely from a normal power. If a standard power would be the ability to do a thing, then a resistence would be a hyper specific lower chance of a thing being done to you working, but not by any action of your own

 

[Promestein]

That's subjective, and not even true, as there are characters who have Resistance for passive uses of their power that allow them to resist the powers of others (such as Glaistig Uaine shunting mind control attempts to her summons).

It's a messy line. I'd rather not try to draw the line, especially since the existence of the page doesn't help with people assuming that overpowering a resistance should get you Resistance Negation.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Would you mind rephrasing?

I think it's quite simple, unless you have some question over what a resistance actually is. Over powering a resistance is a seperate issue, but it can be made distinct by a note on the page

 

[Promestein]

There are characters who have Resistance through their powers, rather than just as a passive effect that lowers the chance of something working.

It's already a note on one of the pages.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Do you mean in the sense of Kumagawa resisting sealing because he has book maker or do you mean some other kind?

Clearly a better note is needed then, if there is still confusion. I dont see how making it one page would solve it

 

[Wokistan]

People just need to be more specific about their power null. Just like anything else, it's bound by feats, and stripping the resistances away from something we aren't gonna generalize if this goes through. I agree with prom that they should all be power null.

 

[Promestein]

I already gave an example (Glaistig Uaine resisting mind manipulation by offloading mental attacks to her summons).

 

[Wokistan]

With The Warpriest, that long list of resists is due to his lawyer manipulation. He still has most of them innately, but not to the degree of his law.

 

[Wokistan]

The Daughters of Oryx are similar, in that their resistances are way better when they have their auras up then when they don't.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I already gave an example (Glaistig Uaine resisting mind manipulation by offloading mental attacks to her summons).

That doesn't seem like resistence then, seems like damage redistribution or something

 

[Promestein]

It's not, though. It offloads mind control, too.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Let me rephrase,

That doesn't seem like resistence, that seems like redistribution of effects

 

[Wokistan]

Which is still a method of resisting something. Also, I posted some destiny examples above. There also exist warding type spells in a lot of media, I could probably find an example in Warhammer with a bit of looking.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's like saying Vitorio resists vector manip just cuz he managed to unload some of Kraft Work's effect onto his target.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't know either of those characters and as such can't help you there, sorry.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with @Saikou
On one hand you are bypassing resistances, but on the other you are nullifying powers.

I also agree

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

It's like, you have resistance to a specific power/ability. For resistance negation, you're negating someone's resistance to a specfic power, but you're not negating/nullifying the ability itself

 

[Promestein]

The resistance is the relevant power here that is being nullified.

 

[Promestein]

Bump.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well tbh i feel like Resistance Negation is the un needed one. It can literally be put as:

Resistance Negation all the same, though Negation is pretty useful. As Power Null is already wide enough as it is. Let's not have power null become more confusing than it already is, it's bad enough that different types of power null are treated the same way, having everything count as power is too bad.

Negation is the act of negating anything you want from your opponent: resistances, powers, traits of one's beings etc. Power Null is just the type of Negation that can "only" be used on powers.

Negation and PN should stay imo.

 

[Wokistan]

Power null can negate all those examples you listed for negation though. Look at what Khorne does to people. I know that's among the best on the site, but it's still power null.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Power null can negate all those examples you listed for negation though. Look at what Khorne does to people. I know that's among the best on the site, but it's still power null.

Then it should be changed. It's bad enough that:

Power Modification

Power Erasure

And traditional Power Nullification are all treated as power null. We don't need to add thousands more applications to power null cus "it makes sense".

Having a character who resisted power erasure, resisting Power Modification, Resistance Negation, negation of the traits of his being etc it's bad to say the least. Im fine with removing Resistance Neg as it is just a specialised version of Neg, but removing neg and just slapping everything on power null, is not ok imo. More and more Power Null is starting to look like Reality Warping (which is basically the most simple definition of any power you can think of).