Potential Upgrade to Arceus' Power Null (Or a mountain of new resistances)

[Dragopentling]

Dragopentling, it is a legit Pokemon move so it is usable. It is likely a misunderstanding happens.

• https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shadow_Force_(move)

that and/or the Undertale supporters got too aggressive with the arguments, idk LOL....not trying to call out anyone in particular, just a reminder

 

[ThatDarnFish]

I think that the TCG should be used for all Pokemon if it's gonna be treated as canon. Right now, only a scant few Pokemon have anything from the TCG on their profiles. It would call for a sizable upgrade for every Pokemon that lacks a specific power that would be added to their profile now that they have access to their TCG Powers/Abilities. Pokemon like Unown would get Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation, and a good chunk of Pokemon get Durability negation and resistance negation. Hell, TCG Bibarel's Unaware works the same way as First Law, stopping all effects except for damage.

Also, there are a few moves that target 'benched pokemon' in the cards that do not apply weakness or resistance. Those moves specifically don't ignore resistance, so much so as Benched Pokemon don't have those resistances or weaknesses applied to them, so those attacks shouldn't be counted as being able to Negate Resistance, so much so as the lack of resistance being a mehcanic of the game that applies to benched pokemon.

 

[Zeifyl]

I think that the TCG should be used for all Pokemon if it's gonna be treated as canon. Right now, only a scant few Pokemon have anything from the TCG on their profiles. It would call for a sizable upgrade for every Pokemon that lacks a specific power that would be added to their profile now that they have access to their TCG Powers/Abilities. Pokemon like Unown would get Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation, and a good chunk of Pokemon get Durability negation and resistance negation. Hell, TCG Bibarel's Unaware works the same way as First Law, stopping all effects except for damage.
Also, there are a few moves that target 'benched pokemon' in the cards that do not apply weakness or resistance. Those moves specifically don't ignore resistance, so much so as Benched Pokemon don't have those resistances or weaknesses applied to them, so those attacks shouldn't be counted as being able to Negate Resistance, so much so as the lack of resistance being a mehcanic of the game that applies to benched pokemon.

That is, however, WAAAAAAAAAY beyond the scope of this CRT, and will require another. And considering the clusterfuck this thread was for a while, I'm not making that.

 

[ThatDarnFish]

I think that the TCG should be used for all Pokemon if it's gonna be treated as canon. Right now, only a scant few Pokemon have anything from the TCG on their profiles. It would call for a sizable upgrade for every Pokemon that lacks a specific power that would be added to their profile now that they have access to their TCG Powers/Abilities. Pokemon like Unown would get Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation, and a good chunk of Pokemon get Durability negation and resistance negation. Hell, TCG Bibarel's Unaware works the same way as First Law, stopping all effects except for damage.
Also, there are a few moves that target 'benched pokemon' in the cards that do not apply weakness or resistance. Those moves specifically don't ignore resistance, so much so as Benched Pokemon don't have those resistances or weaknesses applied to them, so those attacks shouldn't be counted as being able to Negate Resistance, so much so as the lack of resistance being a mehcanic of the game that applies to benched pokemon.

That is, however, WAAAAAAAAAY beyond the scope of this CRT, and will require another. And considering the clusterfuck this thread was for a while, I'm not making that.

Wimp! Time for Cards Against Pokemon: The Thread

 

[Elizhaa]

ThatDarnFish, wimp is unwarranted especially since this topic is not in the OP but for Arceus only.

If Arceus's update gets accepted, a massive CRT is definitely needed to add the update to all Pokemon characters which is around 400 and especially since we don't have the list of all card abilities.

 

[Xerkser500]

Again, guys, I'm more than willing to create blogs on the Pokemon Trading Card Game so that all potential abilities are brought forth (excluding pure game mechanic ones obviously).

Obviously, it would take a while to complete, so I suggest that after we add this for Arceus, we hold off on TCG revisions for the time being until the blogs are done.

 

[Elizhaa]

Xerkser500, I think your proposal is a good choice and I would accept it.

 

[NeoZex6399]

seems reasonable

 

[Xerkser500]

I think, for the blogs, it should be separated accordingly by every generation in Pokemon. And after a Gen blog is finished, we upgrade the pokemons hax strictly from that Gen. Then move on to the next gen, do the same thing, and so on.

So for example, my first blog would be Pokemon Cards strictly for Gen 1 Pokemon, from Bulbasaur to Mewtwo. After finishing Gen 1, a CRT is made to discuss the abilities and add the ones agreed on. Then when Gen 1 is finished, I do a blog on Gen 2 cards next. Discuss, add, then do Gen 3 and so on.

Anyone think this works?

 

[Everything12]

Has a conclusion for Arceus been reached yet? Do other staff members need to be called in?

Luckily for the blog, Bulbapedia has separate TCG pages for each Pokemon, showing which Pokemon has cards in which set: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbasaur_(TCG)

 

[Xerkser500]

I don't think so. I messaged Cal but he doesn't want to participate anymore than the 1st reply he made and I also messaged Kaltias to come back a 2nd time but no reply. If no Staff is going to come, then this is where we are. We'll have to go off of what we have so far.

At this point, most of us agree its to be accepted and have given substantial reasoning behind our agreement, while the possible opposing side have not.

 

[Elizhaa]

Has a conclusion for Arceus been reached yet? Do other staff members need to be called in?
Luckily for the blog, Bulbapedia has separate TCG pages for each Pokemon, showing which Pokemon has cards in which set: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbasaur_(TCG)

I think these links will be helpful:

• https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Pokémon_Trading_Card_Game
  • https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Cards_by_release
  • https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Cards_by_set

 

[Zeifyl]

I think these links will be helpful:

Alternatively:

https://www.serebii.net/card/dex/

 

[Dragopentling]

I don't think so. I messaged Cal but he doesn't want to participate anymore than the 1st reply he made and I also messaged Kaltias to come back a 2nd time but no reply. If no Staff is going to come, then this is where we are. We'll have to go off of what we have so far.
At this point, most of us agree its to be accepted and have given substantial reasoning behind our agreement, while the possible opposing side have not.

Cal is just plain tired of Pokemon related stuff in particular due to the fairly recent shitstorms involved with the franchise here. Give him a break xD......okay, tbf, I am, too, but I'm willing to try to speak up with at least my opinion, though not as an expert.

 

[Zeifyl]

Cal is just plain tired of Pokemon related stuff in particular due to the fairly recent shitstorms involved with the franchise here. Give him a break xD......okay, tbf, I am, too, but I'm willing to try to speak up with at least my opinion, though not as an expert.

I mean, that's entirely understandable. I will make sure not to call for him.

 

[Kaltias]

Messaged Kaltias to come back a 2nd time

I never commented here before though.

I would be fine with giving Arceus the ability to null the TCG effects, but it wouldn't really extend to stuff from the core games, and even less to all the powers of a "composite Pokemon" (Azzy explained this one very well)

 

[Xerkser500]

Oh okay, I thought you did? Sorry about that.

Regarding Azzy's comment though, I think there mightve been counters against it only being TCG effects being nulled.

 

[Kaltias]

What I mean is that the ability is "negate effects" in the context of the TCG game.

It isn't some kind of lore dump explaining that every power in Pokemon is worthless against the divine llama

 

[Xerkser500]

Oh sure, none of us were saying that First Law would let Arceus null literally every power in the verse.

The problem however is that the TCG not only uses game moves within the card game but is also directly based off the games. So I don't think First Law is just strictly limited to nulling TCG only moves.

In other words, its more a middle ground. First Law doesn't null everything, but it shouldn't also null just TCG skills.

 

[Zeifyl]

Oh sure, none of us were saying that First Law would let Arceus null literally every power in the verse.
The problem however is that the TCG not only uses game moves within the card game but is also directly based off the games. So I don't think First Law is just strictly limited to nulling TCG only moves.

In other words, its more a middle ground. First Law doesn't null everything, but it shouldn't also null just TCG skills.

At the same time, we only have direct evidence that Arceus nulls TCG powers. Everything beyond that is gonna require assumptions. I'm also pretty sure that the games don't bring much, if anything, that's relevant that the TCG doesn't.

 

[Xerkser500]

But that's the thing. Game moves are also used in the TCG, not just TCG only abilities. And the TCG is directly based off the games anyway.

Not to mention, in the "How I Became a Pokemon Card" manga, the pokemon from the cards in their storylines have both regular pokemon moves + TCG moves.

So what proves "TCG powers" doesnt include moves from the games?

 

[Zeifyl]

But that's the thing. Game moves are also used in the TCG, not just TCG only abilities. And the TCG is directly based off the games anyway.
Not to mention, in the "How I Became a Pokemon Card" manga, the pokemon from the cards in their storylines have both regular pokemon moves + TCG moves.

So what proves "TCG powers" doesnt include moves from the games?

So they have TCG moves + moves not on their cards? Well, why didn't you say so?

 

[Xerkser500]

I thought that was pretty clear tbh. Lots of Pokemon cards have moves from the games on the cards themselves (and whats shown in the manga)

The Eevee card I posted above is a perfect example. It has both the Tail Wag move it showed in the manga and Quick Attack on the exact same card.

 

[Zeifyl]

But did it show anything not on the card?

 

[ThatDarnFish]

I thought that was pretty clear tbh. Lots of Pokemon cards have moves from the games on the cards themselves (and whats shown in the manga)
The Eevee card I posted above is a perfect example. It has both the Tail Wag move it showed in the manga and Quick Attack on the exact same card.

A lot of moves in the Card Game have the same name as moves in the main games, but at the same time, they may not have the same effects as they do in the maine game. Good example being Bibarel's Unaware ability. In the main game, it just ignores stat buffs and debuffs on the enemy. In the TCG, it works the same as First Law

 

[Zeifyl]

I thought that was pretty clear tbh. Lots of Pokemon cards have moves from the games on the cards themselves (and whats shown in the manga)
The Eevee card I posted above is a perfect example. It has both the Tail Wag move it showed in the manga and Quick Attack on the exact same card.

A lot of moves in the Card Game have the same name as moves in the main games, but at the same time, they may not have the same effects as they do in the maine game. Good example being Bibarel's Unaware ability. In the main game, it just ignores stat buffs and debuffs on the enemy. In the TCG, it works the same as First Law

tfw you're so oblivious to your surroundings it ignores hax

 

[Xerkser500]

But did it show anything not on the card?

Eevee specifically? Nah. Tho Dark Charmeleon and Persian did.

Before that boys charmander evolved into the Dark Charmeleon, it showed the use of Ember against a group of beedrill. So Dark Charmeleon knows ember, despite the actual card its for not having ember on it.

And for Persian, it also showed to be able to use Screech in its chapter of the manga, despite screech not being a move on its card.

 

[Zeifyl]

I'm gonna go ahead and wait to see what Kal has to say about this development. Though, personally, I'm fine either way.

 

[Kaltias]

But that's the thing. Game moves are also used in the TCG, not just TCG only abilities. And the TCG is directly based off the games anyway.

Not to mention, in the "How I Became a Pokemon Card" manga, the pokemon from the cards in their storylines have both regular pokemon moves + TCG moves.

So what proves "TCG powers" doesnt include moves from the games?

The problem with this is that the moves from the main games still have only the TCG effects, while used in the TCG game.

Basically, the point is that even if it nulls, idk, Toxic, it has only shown to affect the TCG version of Toxic

 

[Xerkser500]

I'm almost positive that any of the moves taken from the games that are used in the card game are the exact same moves and not just some unique TCG version of it. Like for example:

Eevee's quick attack and Persian's scratch. The latter especially as we see Persian use Scracth in its chapter of the manga and its the same as scratch from the main games.

There are a lot of other cards too where they have main game moves on the cards and they're used exactly the same way.

 

[Zeifyl]

I'm almost positive that any of the moves taken from the games that are used in the card game are the exact same moves and not just some unique TCG version of it. Like for example:
Eevee's quick attack and Persian's scratch. The latter especially as we see Persian use Scracth in its chapter of the manga and its the same as scratch from the main games.

There are a lot of other cards too where they have main game moves on the cards and they're used exactly the same way.

There's also some that are different. E.G. Brutal Swing (Colorless move with no special effects in the TCG, Dark-type multi target move in the main series.)

 

[Kaltias]

Yes but the point is, First Law does not show to affect anything beyond the TCG effects.

So it won't work on stuff like poisoning simply because that status is not a a thing in the TCG.

It doesn't matter if a lot of moves are implied to be the same because this ability has no lore behind it so you can't assume anything beyond its direct showings, aka negating the TCG effects

 

[Zeifyl]

So it won't work on stuff like poisoning simply because that status is not a a thing in the TCG.

Poison is a thing in the TCG though, so possibly not the best example.

 

[Kaltias]

Ok, replace poisoning with [status that it isn't a thing], that's the point anyway

 

[Xerkser500]

@Zeifyl

Could you show an example card of Brutal Swing saying that for me please?

@Kaltias

And I understand what your point is Kal, but the thing that im also trying to point out is that the TCG effects and the effects of moves from the main games are pretty much the same for one reason and others.

If the TCG had moves that were specifically unique to the TCG, and only the TCG, then i'd be agreeing with you and would have a while ago. But the problem is, the TCG includes main game moves and majority are used exactly the same way. So if the main game moves are used the same in the TCG, then how is it too much to say First Law can null/resist them too?

 

[Zeifyl]

@Zeifyl
Could you show an example card of Brutal Swing saying that for me please?

Brutal (Mistranslated as Hard) Swing (TCG)

Brutal Swing (Core Games)

Also, I stand partially corrected. Brutal Swing does have an effect in the TCG. But it does not match up with the core games effect.

 

[Kaltias]

If a main game ability or move has the same effect, it would fall under "stuff nullified by First Law".

Also, worth pointing out again that most Pokemon can't affect Arceus to begin with because he is 4-D while they are 3-D.

So really it would only be a resistance/power null feat against the effect of moves used by the CT, the LT and the other tier 2 characters

 

[Xerkser500]

But that still doesn't mean one can ignore hax. All of what you said is fine and everything, but not getting status effects is still a form of power null.
Zen'ō doesn't work that way, the Golde Goddesses don't work that way, and so on. Especially because, following that reasoning, all the members of the CT should have it instead of simply Arceus.

Triforce already brought up a point for the "3-D not working on 4-D" point. I don't think being a dimensional entity higher than a lower one automatically means a hax cannot work.

If a main game ability or move has the same effect, it would fall under "stuff nullified by First Law".

This however I agree with. If a move in the TCG from the main games has a different effect in the TCG, then First Law shouldnt be able to null/resist the main game effect.

Like Brutal Swing, which has a different effect in the TCG. For Brutal Swing specifically, First Law is limited to it's TCG effect.

 

[Zeifyl]

Guess I'll go and compile a list of the hax that can be performed by TCG Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Cresselia, and Darkrai, then? (and maybe Unown and/or Arceus?)

 

[DMB_1]

Triforce already brought up a point for the "3-D not working on 4-D" point. I don't think being a dimensional entity higher than a lower one automatically means a hax cannot work.

That's how we threat it. If you are physically 4D, any 3D or lower hax won't work on you.

Just look at any Bill Cipher match