Potential Upgrade to Arceus' Power Null (Or a mountain of new resistances)

[DMB_1]

Reading the card again, he seems to null all effects that target specifically him.

Also by "effects", he doesn't seem to mean the attacks themselves, but only side effects/hax.

 

[Xerkser500]

The latter is most definitely true. I don't know why people thought this meant Attack Negation honestly, it clearly isn't that specifically or else Arceus wouldn't still be getting damaged.

First Law is basically a downgraded version of his Plates besides it being passive. Instead of negating the attack itself, he as I said negates the hax parts to make it a regular attack.

 

[ThatDarnFish]

So, does First Law negate any attack that isn't directly a damaging attack? Like say Confusion, Disable, Destiny Bond, or does it remove the secondary effect of damaging attacks? Like, say, Roar of Time having the added effect of being able to BFR someone across time, or an attack that damages and also seals powers/abilities like Texture Blow from Digimon, or even say The Hakai, as an attack that can also EE.


If it's the former, then that's pretty neat, but if it's the latter, then it's basically like a defensive Sheer Force. Sheer Force being an ability that removes the added effect of an attack, in favor of making the attack stronger. It's looking more like the latter, and if so, then its just another layer of defence from certain things

 

[Everything12]

Well their are attacks in the TCG, where this Ability comes from, that effects the opponents card without the attack dealing any damage, and from what I can tell of the way the Ability is worded 'Prevent all effects of your opponent's attacks, except damage, done to this Pokemon' makes it seem as if the still taking damage is a secondary part of the Ability and the ignoring the effects of opponent's attacks is the primary part that does not require damage.

 

[DMB_1]

Not, the ability specifically says that it doesn't negate damage, but only other Pokémon's effects that target him, or additional effects of attacks that target him.

Depending on how many "effects" attacks and abilities can have on other Pokémon, this could very well just be resistance to Status Effect Inducement or some other form of additional damage.

 

[Janglesthemonkles]

Now this is just gross.

 

[Xerkser500]

So, does First Law negate any attack that isn't directly a damaging attack? Like say Confusion, Disable, Destiny Bond, or does it remove the secondary effect of damaging attacks? Like, say, Roar of Time having the added effect of being able to BFR someone across time, or an attack that damages and also seals powers/abilities like Texture Blow from Digimon, or even say The Hakai, as an attack that can also EE.

I say this.

If the "attack" is just purely an ability that is hax and doesnt directly cause damage, First Law stops it. But if its an attack with a haxy effect (Like Roar of Time for example), then First Law only negates the hax part of the attack, the time warping aspect.

It wont stop the attack itself, which is an energy beam. First Law would just turn it into a regular powerful energy attack.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Why do we use TCG effects anyway? I don't think they've proven that they have any actual effects or lore connection like Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG

 

[Yobo_Blue]

We're really loose on what gets in a Pokémon's canon. Especially considering we have stuff on Arceus' profile from crossovers.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Honestly "why do we treat the TCG as canon" is a pretty good question.

 

[Xerkser500]

We literally gave multiple reasons why TCG is accepted here above.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Can you repost them? I can't seem to find them.

 

[DMB_1]

I'm not totally sure how the cards "having a story behind them" proves it when it sounds more like it's only referring to their description.

 

[Xerkser500]

Well, TCG has the same descriptions about pokémon as the pokedex, it's based directly on the games and many cards are made by people who work on Game Freak like Ken Sugimori. Is more faithful to the games than the anime, that for sure.

And yes to add onto the aforementioned stuff on TCG, there's explicity a manga about Pokemon TCG's being real and having a backstory for each one, so that should be more support.

Along with what has already been stated, there's a section about it on Cal's blog. "The TCG (which has its own manga called How I Became a Pokémon Card that confirms that every card has a story behind it, with the pictures and moves being legit as well) having game and anime characters appear."

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Having a backstory doesn't equal getting effects. Duel Terminal has far more, and all their powers are represented in their effects, not to mention that they literally use game mechanics in their storyline, but they still don't get their card effects.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Card Effects have to A. Prove that there is some sort of power that allows these effects to manifest and proof that they can affect real things, B. Direct representation and reference to both their powers and their effects being the same, like in Yu-Gi-Oh master guides, or C. Have the effects be representative of another ability like in MtG

 

[Xerkser500]

Occams Razor, the effects are real until something explicity proves they aren't.

Especially since Yugioh and Pokemon are vastly different in canonicity types. Unlike the former, the latters continuities are all connected as different universes in a large Multiverse.

It's canon until proven otherwise.

That and Yugioh's entire gimmick is monsters being used as holographic forms in a card game.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Occam's Razor would probably actually assume that they were game mechanics until proven otherwise

Not to mention I'm only referring to one variation of yu-go-oh canon, so it's not like we're arguing about canonical, but rather the usage of card effects.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Occams Razor, the effects are real until something explicity proves they aren't.

Especially since Yugioh and Pokemon are vastly different in canonicity types. Unlike the former, the latters continuities are all connected as different universes in a large Multiverse.

It's canon until proven otherwise.

That and Yugioh's entire gimmick is monsters being used as holographic forms in a card game.

Except for the fact that, you know, these aren't what we're referring too right now. Duel Terminal is totally different than what your describing (which isn't even holographic only)

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And ARC-V, 5ds, GX, DM, and ZEXAL all use real monsters. And Vrains is closer to Digimon.

 

[SomebodyData]

What's with the recent abuse of Occam's razor? Y'all realize that it should be used as a minor supporting argument, rather than as a point right and only when the other argument requires like, 4 times as many assumptions?

Regardless, I'm assuming that the manga does depict the cards as having actual effects on other people, otherwise it wouldn't have been accepted. But this argument can end really quickly if someone just links the manga.

 

[Xerkser500]

That would only be the case if there wasn't a literal manga about Pokemon Cards having actual backstories. And I know (think anyway) what your talking about but the problem is its a false equivalancy between verses from what im seeing.

In Yugioh's case, we know the card effects are fake until proven otherwise because the card game itself was devised of having effects based off the original monsters. For instance, in the original Yugioh, Pegasus literally makes the effects of these cards. We know the monsters are real, but the effects of the cards are not until actually proven to be real.

Pokemons case doesnt deal with that.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Pegasus doesn't even exist in most of Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's treated the same way across.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Not to mention even when he does exist the Egyptians created it first

 

[Xerkser500]

The Shadow Games is the ancient form of Duel Monsters yes but there is absolutely 0 proof that the literal card effects were ever a concept back in ancient times instead of just being a concept Pegasus made up himself when making the game.

 

[NeoZex6399]

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/How_I_Became_a_Pokémon_Card

 

[SomebodyData]

Is the manga itself translated? It's kinda impossible to know if the effects exist when you can't read the actual books.

 

[Kepekley23]

Calling Occam's Razor when the opposing view is headcanon is perfectly fine as a general rule. Not possible to abuse something valid.

 

[Xerkser500]

Yeah. A site where pokemon manga is contained has the chapters of the manga translated thankfully (I think this site already uses it but whatever). It only has 3 volumes of the "How I Became a Pokemon Card" manga though.

One of them tells the story of Persian, showing the actual persian card, and it's backstory is it befriending a young boy, who's implied to be Giovanni.

Persian in this manga has scratch attack as one of it's moves. Uploading the english translation of that exact Pokemon card, one of the Persian pokemo

cards attack is scratch.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, most headcanons generally assume a whole ton of assumptions. But occam's razor itself isn't anything more than a supporting point in most cases as you're basically calling out a baseless claim without providing evidence yourself.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Does it do what the effect says?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The Shadow Games is the ancient form of Duel Monsters yes but there is absolutely 0 proof that the literal card effects were ever a concept back in ancient times instead of just being a concept Pegasus made up himself when making the game.

They used the effects though. Not to mention you're ignoring my first point.

 

[Xerkser500]

Can you show me the ancient egyptians doing exactly what the modern Duel Monster cards do then by any chance?

And yes, scratch does exactly what its...well...called.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

But does it use effects?

I would, but my internet is kind of spotty right now, and they're hard to find. The point is moot though, considering we treat all examples of Yu-Gi-Oh canon the same.

 

[Xerkser500]

If you mean tearing through something, which scratch obviously does, then...

 

[Yobo_Blue]

But does it reduce the effects damage like the effect does?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Oh, I think I mistook what you mean. Does it use pounce?

 

[Xerkser500]

Ah, my fault then lol.

Pounce we never see in Persians chapter since it never takes on another Pokemon. It was injured from when Team Rocket tried capturing a group of them, but it happened off panel.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Are there any other good examples of a move being used?

 

[DMB_1]

Another thing: if we were to apply this to Arceus, we'd end up giving a gigantic amount of additions to every Pokémon just because in the card game, even the most basic of moves has additional effects.

Which makes me think that, looking at the previous examples that were listed (Dialga and Giration), right now we are basically applying this TCG thing only to the CT and Arceus just because they are the CT and Arceus.