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Again base Goku Black was comparable to blue Vegeta and was only slightly stronger than blue Goku.
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Possible DBS downgrade
- Thread starter Lgamer099_99
- Start date
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But Goku Black is another character. He is a god inside Goku's body, that could have done something like profit on zenkai boosts + inmortal Zamasu healing, multiple iterations.Zamasu Chan said:
As Goku Black is another character, him been universal at base doesn't mean that Goku and Vegeta are in as well in base, but even if they are, that doesn't necessarily implies that Frost and Piccoro are universal.
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That's not what I'm saying tho.
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Gohan before his training with Piccolo in DBS is crearly weaker than he was during Buu saga, everyone talks about his original power and even the narrator said that he regained the strenght of the past, yes he said strenght not potential or form.Akreious said:
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Gohan during the battle the RoF saga was actually comparable to Ultimate Gohan from Buu saga; he was superior to Gotenks during that period and was strong enough to make Goku sense his PL from there. But after they both started training after said scenerior, they both skyrocketed in power to the point where Goku was impressed and considered him to join the Universe 6 Tournament. Vegeta also noted Piccolo seemed worthy to join the Tournament of Power, but at the time didn't consider Cabba worthy. Goku also considered Frost to be stronger than Frieza's Final Form; while not quite as strong as Golden Frieza, he's still 3-A for that reason.
Anyway, Goku never considered Piccolo fodder; and the opposite is shown prior to Tournament of Power. He told Piccolo he doesn't trust anyone other than him to train Gohan, and Piccolo also stomped SSJ2 Gohan before returning to his Ultimate Gohan form. And even as Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo was legit able to go toe to toe with Universe 6's Namekians; the same characters who are in turn comparable to Ultimate Gohan. Piccolo is easily 3-A and so is Ultimate Gohan. Base Gohan and lower leveled SSJ forms are also comparable to Base Goku and lower leveled SSJ forms who's also 3-A for legit reasons mentioned above.
Gohan didn't struggle with Jimizu, he was holding back like Goku does all the time. And Frieza stomped him, which Gohan is considered almost as powerful as Frieza during the Tournament of Power. Caulifa also grows a lot during the Tournament of Power, and Kale is also easily 3-A when she's serious. Goku even in base form was shown to be above SSJ2 Caulifla, but after he trained her alongside Kale, Caulifa was able to grow much stronger. It's debatable how strong her base form was, but she should be comparable to Cabba. And Cabba would be 3-A with his Super Saiyan transformations as Vegeta considered him stronger than Frost and Magetta. And of course, Caulifa would also have to be really strong if she could fuse with Kale and create Kefla.
The narrator once again isn't referring to specific Power Level, but only that he's once again into being a great martial artist. Goku and Vegeta also both made multiple jumps in power during the Goku Black saga, and base Goku and Vegeta were able to take hits from Super Saiyan Rose. Trunks would also have to be 3-A since he grew a lot stronger from both his trainings with Goku and Vegeta, and from facing Goku Black and Zamasu multiple times. And he was able to land good hits on them in just his SSJ2 form; let alone Super Saiyan Rage and his Spirit Sword.
Again we had countless discussions about these topics for years and there's no need to change anything regarding the Tiers.
Anyway, Goku never considered Piccolo fodder; and the opposite is shown prior to Tournament of Power. He told Piccolo he doesn't trust anyone other than him to train Gohan, and Piccolo also stomped SSJ2 Gohan before returning to his Ultimate Gohan form. And even as Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo was legit able to go toe to toe with Universe 6's Namekians; the same characters who are in turn comparable to Ultimate Gohan. Piccolo is easily 3-A and so is Ultimate Gohan. Base Gohan and lower leveled SSJ forms are also comparable to Base Goku and lower leveled SSJ forms who's also 3-A for legit reasons mentioned above.
Gohan didn't struggle with Jimizu, he was holding back like Goku does all the time. And Frieza stomped him, which Gohan is considered almost as powerful as Frieza during the Tournament of Power. Caulifa also grows a lot during the Tournament of Power, and Kale is also easily 3-A when she's serious. Goku even in base form was shown to be above SSJ2 Caulifla, but after he trained her alongside Kale, Caulifa was able to grow much stronger. It's debatable how strong her base form was, but she should be comparable to Cabba. And Cabba would be 3-A with his Super Saiyan transformations as Vegeta considered him stronger than Frost and Magetta. And of course, Caulifa would also have to be really strong if she could fuse with Kale and create Kefla.
The narrator once again isn't referring to specific Power Level, but only that he's once again into being a great martial artist. Goku and Vegeta also both made multiple jumps in power during the Goku Black saga, and base Goku and Vegeta were able to take hits from Super Saiyan Rose. Trunks would also have to be 3-A since he grew a lot stronger from both his trainings with Goku and Vegeta, and from facing Goku Black and Zamasu multiple times. And he was able to land good hits on them in just his SSJ2 form; let alone Super Saiyan Rage and his Spirit Sword.
Again we had countless discussions about these topics for years and there's no need to change anything regarding the Tiers.
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Akira specifically says that Goku would not use his Super Saiyan 2 or 3 transformations after BoG because mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/RashFaustinho said:
He also says that Godku is 6, Beerus is 10, and Whis 15 in terms of power, which is far from true. I wouldn't use movie material to build a theory regarding this Saiyan Beyond God form. From my interpretation since the start of the anime, it's only Goku's super-powered up conventional base form, to me he only mixed/added Super Saiyan God's strength to his own normal ki.
sorry for my grammar, English is not my main language
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Those numbers are heavily outdated as the gaps are actually much bigger than that. Though, Goku has recently gotten stronger than Beerus, but only with his Ultra Instinct form.
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I used them to show that Akira's quotes from movie material doesn't make any sense and can't be taken as valid today.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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Ah, I see. I guess I spoke too soon. But yeah, Saiyan Beyond God was basically reworded as not a transformation, but a title of Goku and Vegeta growing to the point where even their base forms and normal key is just is on par with the Godly Ki of a Super Saiyan God.
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I don't remember Goku saying that Frost is stronger than Ultimate Form Frieza.
Also, Ultimate Form Frieza seems to be at the same level (if not stronger) of SSJ2 Caulifla
That's not inconsistent, because Injured Base Goku fought on par with initial SSJ2 Caulifla (I know that Caulifla was adapting to Goku and become stronger and stronger)
The thing is simple, Goku never utilized his God's Essence states against fodder characters like Frost, Caulifla ect..
Also, Ultimate Form Frieza seems to be at the same level (if not stronger) of SSJ2 Caulifla
That's not inconsistent, because Injured Base Goku fought on par with initial SSJ2 Caulifla (I know that Caulifla was adapting to Goku and become stronger and stronger)
The thing is simple, Goku never utilized his God's Essence states against fodder characters like Frost, Caulifla ect..
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First of all, please stop spamming long quotes. It makes the thread too redundant and harder to read.
I never said Frost was stronger than Golden Frieza, only that Frost's first form was equal to and/or stronger than 4th form Frieza was during RoF saga. And his Final form was stronger yet than Frieza at the time. He would still be 3-A. Goku is 3-A in all forms, but he is creative with various instances in which he looks like he goes all out when he's obviously holding back. But not every single instance of him holding back is literally him fighting with 10^39 times less power than what his base form is capable of.
It's a clear statement in the Anime that Goku grew strong to the point where even his regular Ki is astronomically above baseline 3-A. And his SSJ yellow forms are still even stronger, and then his SSG form and above are the only forms he uses his Godly Ki. 4th Form Frieza is another character who grew astronomically while he was in Hell to the point where even without his Golden Form, he'd also be much stronger. He used his Golden form to stomp Frost, but he wasn't fodder at all during the Universe 6 saga. And Fodder is a strong word, he's more like in the middle during Tournament of Power. Universe 6 was legit one of the stronger universes and Universe 7 was supposed to be the 2nd weakest Universe; it just has very few characters who are really strong. But still, Frieza and Caulifa still have enough background to be 3-A.
Also, Vegeta doesn't normally hold back in the same regard Goku does, and Cabba actually has more context to be 3-A. In Universe 6 saga, Vegeta literally felt the need to go SSB; implying SSJ2 Cabba was even stronger than Frost, who was stronger than 4th form Frieza at the time, and who would be 3-A anyway given that Base Goku was well above BoG saga SSG Goku. Even Vegeta admired Cabba for growing stronger and saw great potential in him. Caulifa also shouldn't be too much weaker than Cabba.
I never said Frost was stronger than Golden Frieza, only that Frost's first form was equal to and/or stronger than 4th form Frieza was during RoF saga. And his Final form was stronger yet than Frieza at the time. He would still be 3-A. Goku is 3-A in all forms, but he is creative with various instances in which he looks like he goes all out when he's obviously holding back. But not every single instance of him holding back is literally him fighting with 10^39 times less power than what his base form is capable of.
It's a clear statement in the Anime that Goku grew strong to the point where even his regular Ki is astronomically above baseline 3-A. And his SSJ yellow forms are still even stronger, and then his SSG form and above are the only forms he uses his Godly Ki. 4th Form Frieza is another character who grew astronomically while he was in Hell to the point where even without his Golden Form, he'd also be much stronger. He used his Golden form to stomp Frost, but he wasn't fodder at all during the Universe 6 saga. And Fodder is a strong word, he's more like in the middle during Tournament of Power. Universe 6 was legit one of the stronger universes and Universe 7 was supposed to be the 2nd weakest Universe; it just has very few characters who are really strong. But still, Frieza and Caulifa still have enough background to be 3-A.
Also, Vegeta doesn't normally hold back in the same regard Goku does, and Cabba actually has more context to be 3-A. In Universe 6 saga, Vegeta literally felt the need to go SSB; implying SSJ2 Cabba was even stronger than Frost, who was stronger than 4th form Frieza at the time, and who would be 3-A anyway given that Base Goku was well above BoG saga SSG Goku. Even Vegeta admired Cabba for growing stronger and saw great potential in him. Caulifa also shouldn't be too much weaker than Cabba.
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English is not my first language and in my country 4th form Freeza is called "ultimate form Freeza".Akreious said:
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Hmm, I see. It just sounds that; and Ultimate form sounds like it would refer to the 100% form. Another form Frieza almost never used again till Tournament of Power. Though did briefly show it off before Golden Form.
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The question is how Piccolo became 3-A during Tournament of U6 vs U7 when in the same year he lost against Tagoma?
I know that there a lot of proofs about base Goku being 3-A, but can't Goku just suppressed himself in all of his forms and chose to not utilize the God's Essence?
I know that there a lot of proofs about base Goku being 3-A, but can't Goku just suppressed himself in all of his forms and chose to not utilize the God's Essence?
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Piccolo trained with Gohan and both of them grew astronomically; and it's also not the first time characters grew that much; Frieza was the first example, going from Low 4-C to 3-A in less than 4 months. Frost still has his statements about being 3-A from Goku, Vegeta, and Vados. Goku initially thought Piccolo stood no chance, but Piccolo surprised him with his power growth. Piccolo was also about to win his fight against Frost if he hadn't cheated.
That's also how Universe 6 Saiyans are, they grow to 3-A before they even learn Super Saiyan transformations and everything.
That's also how Universe 6 Saiyans are, they grow to 3-A before they even learn Super Saiyan transformations and everything.
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To me, it still sounds nonsense because that's not what the author intendend, nor what they tried to do.
A lot of the mentioned scenes are just simply PIS and inconsistent fighting scenes that appear all the time in this anime.
Take SSJ2 Trunks fighting with Black Rosè. After that, he gets an upgrade because he was too weak to actually fight with that character, and becomes SSJ Anger. What's the meaning of giving him an upgrade if he was 3-A like all the rest in the first place?
It should be clear that DBZ Anime / DBS take make a lot of fighting scenes on even grounds for the sake of spectacularity, but this is not accounted here, and it results in all variety of nonsensical scaling.
Also, a lot of the stuff that is happening in the show is read incorrecty just for the sake of mantaining this argument.
"Vegeta felt the need to go SSB for facing Cabba"
WTF? Vegeta was already defeating Cabba with his regular SSJ. Or are we going to throw that out of the windows as well?
He clearly shows Cabba his godly form in order to motivate him, and that's it.
But really, all the argument is pointless IMHO. Frost, Caulifla and those other people were never intended to be 3-A in the first place.
Caulifla especially, is trying to discover new transformations, and trying to follow Goku's path, and we discover she's already strong as SSG? Yeah, right. Totally what the writers intended.
If that's the scaling that's used here, than I agree with those who want Roshi and Crilin in 3-A. At least be consistent with the scaling through all these characters.
After all, Goku "felt the need to go SSB" against Kuririn, isn't it? As much Vegeta "felt" the need to go Blue against Cabba
A lot of the mentioned scenes are just simply PIS and inconsistent fighting scenes that appear all the time in this anime.
Take SSJ2 Trunks fighting with Black Rosè. After that, he gets an upgrade because he was too weak to actually fight with that character, and becomes SSJ Anger. What's the meaning of giving him an upgrade if he was 3-A like all the rest in the first place?
It should be clear that DBZ Anime / DBS take make a lot of fighting scenes on even grounds for the sake of spectacularity, but this is not accounted here, and it results in all variety of nonsensical scaling.
Also, a lot of the stuff that is happening in the show is read incorrecty just for the sake of mantaining this argument.
"Vegeta felt the need to go SSB for facing Cabba"
WTF? Vegeta was already defeating Cabba with his regular SSJ. Or are we going to throw that out of the windows as well?
He clearly shows Cabba his godly form in order to motivate him, and that's it.
But really, all the argument is pointless IMHO. Frost, Caulifla and those other people were never intended to be 3-A in the first place.
Caulifla especially, is trying to discover new transformations, and trying to follow Goku's path, and we discover she's already strong as SSG? Yeah, right. Totally what the writers intended.
If that's the scaling that's used here, than I agree with those who want Roshi and Crilin in 3-A. At least be consistent with the scaling through all these characters.
After all, Goku "felt the need to go SSB" against Kuririn, isn't it? As much Vegeta "felt" the need to go Blue against Cabba
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Take SSJ2 Trunks fighting with Black Rosè. After that, he gets an upgrade because he was too weak to actually fight with that character, and becomes SSJ Anger. What's the meaning of giving him an upgrade if he was 3-A like all the rest in the first place?
Being in the same tier in no way prevents you from being stomped by someone in the same tier.
Being in the same tier in no way prevents you from being stomped by someone in the same tier.
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SSJ2 Trunks, if we have to take the fighting scene literally, was NOT stomped. He could fight with Black Rosè and also take a few of his attacks.Hst master said:
Obviously this doesn't make any sense, because the authors supposedly SSJ Anger to F. Trunks in order to make him fight on even grounds.
So, either the transformation has no point whatsoever and the whole power up affair doesn't have a point, or the fights BEFORE he went SSJ Anger were spectularized for the sake of the show.
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SSJ2 Trunks, if we have to take the fighting scene literally, was NOT stomped. He could fight with Black Rosè and also take a few of his attacks.
Obviously this doesn't make any sense, because the authors supposedly SSJ Anger to F. Trunks in order to make him fight on even grounds.
So, either the transformation has no point whatsoever and the whole power up affair doesn't have a point, or the fights BEFORE he went SSJ Anger were spectularized for the sake of the show.
>He wasn't stomped
He was casually toyed with. In fact the last interaction he had with black was getting easily put into a chokehold and blasted in the stomach.
And your argument relies on assuming that transformations always equal a tier Jump. It doesn't and there are times it will simply get you higher into said tier.
Goku from base to SSB pre ToP is 3-A across the board. Even if we were to go by your logic and only have SSG and SSB as 3-A, that's still 2 forms where his tier is the same but he's still stronger. Same with Vegeta.
Heck in Z Goku's SSJ2 and SSJ3 transformations are both 4-B.
Obviously this doesn't make any sense, because the authors supposedly SSJ Anger to F. Trunks in order to make him fight on even grounds.
So, either the transformation has no point whatsoever and the whole power up affair doesn't have a point, or the fights BEFORE he went SSJ Anger were spectularized for the sake of the show.
>He wasn't stomped
He was casually toyed with. In fact the last interaction he had with black was getting easily put into a chokehold and blasted in the stomach.
And your argument relies on assuming that transformations always equal a tier Jump. It doesn't and there are times it will simply get you higher into said tier.
Goku from base to SSB pre ToP is 3-A across the board. Even if we were to go by your logic and only have SSG and SSB as 3-A, that's still 2 forms where his tier is the same but he's still stronger. Same with Vegeta.
Heck in Z Goku's SSJ2 and SSJ3 transformations are both 4-B.
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I'm not saying he has to do a Tier jump. We can totally ignore Tiers for the moments.
My point is, everything is scaled to Base Goku because supposedly all his opponents would've been stomped. Than that same logic has to be applied to Trunks.
Also, uh, I'm fine with SSG and SSB being 3-A (or 2-C, whatever they are). Never said anything about those.
Also, again, no, SSJ2 Trunks was NOT stomped. That's not a stomp however how you look at it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRqKoJkPfDU
Yet, the authors had to gave him another transformation to fight on par with SSB Goku and Vegeta, even though SSJ2 Trunks was almost fighting better than SSB Vegeta himself.
See? It makes no sense!
My point is, everything is scaled to Base Goku because supposedly all his opponents would've been stomped. Than that same logic has to be applied to Trunks.
Also, uh, I'm fine with SSG and SSB being 3-A (or 2-C, whatever they are). Never said anything about those.
Also, again, no, SSJ2 Trunks was NOT stomped. That's not a stomp however how you look at it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRqKoJkPfDU
Yet, the authors had to gave him another transformation to fight on par with SSB Goku and Vegeta, even though SSJ2 Trunks was almost fighting better than SSB Vegeta himself.
See? It makes no sense!
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I can understand that, but the result of this is having characters in tiers of strenght and / or level of powers that they were never intended to have.
Is it really right to index a character that way, even when some of his things he does weren't ever intended? Isn't this the reason why the PIS and Outlier rules are here in the first place?
Is it really right to index a character that way, even when some of his things he does weren't ever intended? Isn't this the reason why the PIS and Outlier rules are here in the first place?
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iux3tHEFJUA
Casually toyed with per his last interaction.
My point is, everything is scaled to Base Goku because supposedly all his opponents would've been stomped. Than that same logic has to be applied to Trunks.
Except Trunks is initially scaled to Goku and Vegeta. Not himself or Black.
Also, uh, I'm fine with SSG and SSB being 3-A (or 2-C, whatever they are). Never said anything about those.
Not the point. The point is having forms within the same tier.
Yet, the authors had to gave him another transformation to fight on par with SSB Goku and Vegeta, even though SSJ2 Trunks was almost fighting better than SSB Vegeta himself
Except just as you said, he was already fighting well with a Weaker Black. You seem to not be taking into context the fact Black gets Zenkais every time he's injured as soon after he uses SSJ Ikari, he quickly gets overpowered along with Vegeta.
Casually toyed with per his last interaction.
My point is, everything is scaled to Base Goku because supposedly all his opponents would've been stomped. Than that same logic has to be applied to Trunks.
Except Trunks is initially scaled to Goku and Vegeta. Not himself or Black.
Also, uh, I'm fine with SSG and SSB being 3-A (or 2-C, whatever they are). Never said anything about those.
Not the point. The point is having forms within the same tier.
Yet, the authors had to gave him another transformation to fight on par with SSB Goku and Vegeta, even though SSJ2 Trunks was almost fighting better than SSB Vegeta himself
Except just as you said, he was already fighting well with a Weaker Black. You seem to not be taking into context the fact Black gets Zenkais every time he's injured as soon after he uses SSJ Ikari, he quickly gets overpowered along with Vegeta.
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"Never intended to have"
No one cares about author intent, so you don't understand what just said. Writers can't do math or physics, and many writers didn't "intend" to portray their characters at Town Level or Universal, but so what? Death of the Author.
PIS and Outliers also have nothing to do with author intent, and yes, this is the right way to scale and index characters. We go by what they ACTUALLY do and deal in the solid facts and truth and what can be interpreted safely and with as few assumptions as possible rather than grasp at straws and pretend that the author's intentions mattered when it was their incompetence that failed to translate that into the work. Read Death of the Author on TV Tropes Chief.
In fact, PIS is bullshit that shouldn't logically happen but does because the writers willed it to be so. And if you believe in this concept, you reject "author intent" at times. So you're inconsistent in your beliefs on the matter.
Outliers do the same thing. Rejecting feats put their by the Author because they don't fit the characters general capabilities consistently, or whatever. They're like powerscaling plotholes that you ignore because they break the story and the reality otherwise. And we choose to preserve those things. Unless you believe that plotholes invalidate an entire story and all events taking place after are non-canon. Which goes against the Author. AGAIN.
So drop author intent and "portrayal" as main arguments. The latter at least has place because we can use narrative implications MAYBE to determine how strong someone is, but not only is that method hotly contested, but it's factually inferior to working out the scaling by going by the facts of the story rather than abstract interpretation with little solid ground, like arguing "author intent" does.
No one cares about author intent, so you don't understand what just said. Writers can't do math or physics, and many writers didn't "intend" to portray their characters at Town Level or Universal, but so what? Death of the Author.
PIS and Outliers also have nothing to do with author intent, and yes, this is the right way to scale and index characters. We go by what they ACTUALLY do and deal in the solid facts and truth and what can be interpreted safely and with as few assumptions as possible rather than grasp at straws and pretend that the author's intentions mattered when it was their incompetence that failed to translate that into the work. Read Death of the Author on TV Tropes Chief.
In fact, PIS is bullshit that shouldn't logically happen but does because the writers willed it to be so. And if you believe in this concept, you reject "author intent" at times. So you're inconsistent in your beliefs on the matter.
Outliers do the same thing. Rejecting feats put their by the Author because they don't fit the characters general capabilities consistently, or whatever. They're like powerscaling plotholes that you ignore because they break the story and the reality otherwise. And we choose to preserve those things. Unless you believe that plotholes invalidate an entire story and all events taking place after are non-canon. Which goes against the Author. AGAIN.
So drop author intent and "portrayal" as main arguments. The latter at least has place because we can use narrative implications MAYBE to determine how strong someone is, but not only is that method hotly contested, but it's factually inferior to working out the scaling by going by the facts of the story rather than abstract interpretation with little solid ground, like arguing "author intent" does.
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Whatever, dropping the argument then.
I took the author route for a simple reason, when presented that Goku could deactive his Godly, i've been said he does not (when he logically should have). At that point I asked myself if you truly believed that Frost was superior to BOG SSG Goku, that's why I asked multiple times.
I'll agree on one thing, though.
DBS is full of insconsistent fighting scenes, where lesser warriors are able to face supposedly Universal characters. That much DOES happen during the course of the anime, way too many times. That much, I can agree with you all.
It's just that, simply, indexing a character for something he wasn't intended to do, just seems... Idk, wrong?
On the other take, I can see that probably you receive complaints for wanking or downplay characters all the time. So, you need this kind of evidence in order to not be bothered by people. And that's why the lesser warriors' tiers are so... strange.
It's just I see no point in indexing character that way. All the merchandise and/or products related to DBS (would it be the previous movies, the videogames, etc.) do not point at any of this.
But at the very least, I can say I UNDERSTAND why you're doing it.
I'll just say, I agree to disagree.
I took the author route for a simple reason, when presented that Goku could deactive his Godly, i've been said he does not (when he logically should have). At that point I asked myself if you truly believed that Frost was superior to BOG SSG Goku, that's why I asked multiple times.
I'll agree on one thing, though.
DBS is full of insconsistent fighting scenes, where lesser warriors are able to face supposedly Universal characters. That much DOES happen during the course of the anime, way too many times. That much, I can agree with you all.
It's just that, simply, indexing a character for something he wasn't intended to do, just seems... Idk, wrong?
On the other take, I can see that probably you receive complaints for wanking or downplay characters all the time. So, you need this kind of evidence in order to not be bothered by people. And that's why the lesser warriors' tiers are so... strange.
It's just I see no point in indexing character that way. All the merchandise and/or products related to DBS (would it be the previous movies, the videogames, etc.) do not point at any of this.
But at the very least, I can say I UNDERSTAND why you're doing it.
I'll just say, I agree to disagree.
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I have no reason to disbelieve what's in front of me. You refusing to accept 3-A Frost because you don't like how he got to be so ridiculously strong by the verse's standards in an unexplained manner isn't negating the fact that Goku has not only been considered superior to the version of himself with the Godly amp to his base and super saiyan form IN HIS BASE BY BEERUS before he even learned super saiyan blue. Beerus wants to fight strong characters and would never waste a compliment in that moment, where their bases were the only thing he could sense and they didn't train in super saiyan, on people who are weaker than the forms he felt were fodder to him. Those same base forms before the god shenanigans. In fact, Beerus said they were STRONGER.
So the idea that these superior super saiyans are all of a sudden unable to harness the power they held before in their base forms and weaker forms AGAIN in those same forms for some unexplained and blatantly nonsense reason demonstrates that the 2 base, Active Godly and non-Godly modes is headcanon. There was never a scene that even implies that Goku has lost the ability to use the strength he had in Super Saiyan when he fought beerus. In fact, several scenes implying he got even stronger than that super saiyan state in his base. So, Goku having trouble with Frost and Vegeta with Magetta just means those guys were strong. It's not our job to make it make sense and PRETEND or ASSUME the thoughts of the Author.
That's your problem if it bothers you, but that doesn't make your analysis correct. Especially since it denies the evidence in front of you in favor of bias and abstract assumptions that are unfalsifable, and even irrelevant. Toriyama and any writer can deny anything they want, but if it's in their story, they should have wrote it better and wrote what they actually wanted into the plot. Death of the Author. If Toriyama died after this was made and we didn't find it until later, then we would work under the same assumptions now.
So the idea that these superior super saiyans are all of a sudden unable to harness the power they held before in their base forms and weaker forms AGAIN in those same forms for some unexplained and blatantly nonsense reason demonstrates that the 2 base, Active Godly and non-Godly modes is headcanon. There was never a scene that even implies that Goku has lost the ability to use the strength he had in Super Saiyan when he fought beerus. In fact, several scenes implying he got even stronger than that super saiyan state in his base. So, Goku having trouble with Frost and Vegeta with Magetta just means those guys were strong. It's not our job to make it make sense and PRETEND or ASSUME the thoughts of the Author.
That's your problem if it bothers you, but that doesn't make your analysis correct. Especially since it denies the evidence in front of you in favor of bias and abstract assumptions that are unfalsifable, and even irrelevant. Toriyama and any writer can deny anything they want, but if it's in their story, they should have wrote it better and wrote what they actually wanted into the plot. Death of the Author. If Toriyama died after this was made and we didn't find it until later, then we would work under the same assumptions now.
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Uh, headcanon?
There is a Toriyama interview clarying stating that Goku doesn't need anymore to transform into a Super Saiyan God (and by extent, lesser forms) because he absorbed the God's power.
And I repeat, he does NOT need'em.
Goku goes to Super Saiyan Yellow? Then, by pure logic, he isn't using that power. Otherwise he wouldn't even NEED to transform.
The fact is, I've been said interview doesn't count because it's from the BOG 2013 movie.
Fine, that's PERFECTLY fine, do not account that if you don't want to. I just said in the previous post, I'll agree to disagree.
But by all means, the Saiyan Beyond God state is not something invented. Do not downplay my argumernt just because you don't like it, that's incredibly disrepsectful and childish.
This form has been aknowledge in videogames and other Dragon Ball-related products as well.
You don't count them? Fine.That's perfectly fine, I don't care.
But do not go around pointing fingers said people invent things, when this is not the case.
There is a Toriyama interview clarying stating that Goku doesn't need anymore to transform into a Super Saiyan God (and by extent, lesser forms) because he absorbed the God's power.
And I repeat, he does NOT need'em.
Goku goes to Super Saiyan Yellow? Then, by pure logic, he isn't using that power. Otherwise he wouldn't even NEED to transform.
The fact is, I've been said interview doesn't count because it's from the BOG 2013 movie.
Fine, that's PERFECTLY fine, do not account that if you don't want to. I just said in the previous post, I'll agree to disagree.
But by all means, the Saiyan Beyond God state is not something invented. Do not downplay my argumernt just because you don't like it, that's incredibly disrepsectful and childish.
This form has been aknowledge in videogames and other Dragon Ball-related products as well.
You don't count them? Fine.That's perfectly fine, I don't care.
But do not go around pointing fingers said people invent things, when this is not the case.
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1. Super Saiyan God's needlessness doesn't mean Goku has no use for regular super saiyan. That's a headcanon reinterpretation of Toriyama's words, and they see directly contradicted by him saying Goku only needs to train his base and SUPER SAIYAN forms.
2. You taking that misinterpretation of a statement made OUTSIDE of the continuity BEFORE the anime was released is one step. Using it to invalidate super saiyan as a whole is more than enough for me to believe you're using your own ideas in your analysis of the series. In no way is the idea that Goku doesn't need super saiyan anymore or that him going super saiyan means he is not using his Godly power. Your idea resembles the infamous 2 Base Myth that plagued Super early on. With people claiming that Goku has 2 sets of power. God essence and standard. Backed up with ZERO quotes or explicit evidence from the actual show and content they claim for it to be a part of and only supported by vague and misinterpreted or worse deliberately misrepresented information in the show that is easily debunk by... the show. Saiyan Beyond God isn't invented, but the way you think it works IS. I'm not downplaying your argument to be rude. I'm debunking it. It's... Wrong. Don't mean to hurt you.
Edit: How I know my first point is correct...
Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future? I think you'll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God's power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn't fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.
Toriyama was referring to Goku not needing Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Not including Regular Super Saiyan. Instead...
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, [Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength], so I think he probably won't become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
This means Goku will still use super saiyan. Making the idea that he's lost anything relating to it wrong. And based in nothing. Sorry.
2. You taking that misinterpretation of a statement made OUTSIDE of the continuity BEFORE the anime was released is one step. Using it to invalidate super saiyan as a whole is more than enough for me to believe you're using your own ideas in your analysis of the series. In no way is the idea that Goku doesn't need super saiyan anymore or that him going super saiyan means he is not using his Godly power. Your idea resembles the infamous 2 Base Myth that plagued Super early on. With people claiming that Goku has 2 sets of power. God essence and standard. Backed up with ZERO quotes or explicit evidence from the actual show and content they claim for it to be a part of and only supported by vague and misinterpreted or worse deliberately misrepresented information in the show that is easily debunk by... the show. Saiyan Beyond God isn't invented, but the way you think it works IS. I'm not downplaying your argument to be rude. I'm debunking it. It's... Wrong. Don't mean to hurt you.
Edit: How I know my first point is correct...
Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future? I think you'll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God's power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn't fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.
Toriyama was referring to Goku not needing Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Not including Regular Super Saiyan. Instead...
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, [Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength], so I think he probably won't become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
This means Goku will still use super saiyan. Making the idea that he's lost anything relating to it wrong. And based in nothing. Sorry.
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1. Toriyama also noted in another inteview noted that since Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 are simply powered-up versions of Super Saiyan, completely mastering the normal state and the Super Saiyan form would lead Super Saiyan to being stronger than both Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. (see here)Amexim said:
And I repeat, I think that "Chou" SSJ (God's Essence SSJ) evolved into SSGSS as implied in the anime, in the manga, in every videogames...
So Yellow SSJ returned as strong as before after Goku unlocked SSGSS.
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> That's a headcanon reinterpretation of Toriyama's words
It is written right there. He does not need to transfom to [Super Saiyan] God anymore. Not something I came up with.
Also, the movie partially confirms this by the fact that Goku doesn't even notice that he went Yellow during the fight. He still believed he was in his SSG form for the entire fight.
Also, Goku mentions it to Frieza as well, he doesn't need to transform to Super Saiyan. And that's also the reason he only transforms to Blue.
To put it simply, the Saiyan Beyond God existed ONCE, at least it surely was in the movies. He was not explictly mentioned just like in the anime, but it's there. Information outside the movies supports this.
Then DBS came up. And the deal with DBS is that said form stopped existing at some point (because, let's face it, the idea of removing all Yellow Super Saiyans was just stupid) and reintroduced Yellow Saiyans at the first point available, that is, the Universe 6 Tournament.
This already started creating all sort of problems, and the thing worsened with Super Saiyan God reappiring in the manga, and later in the anime too. (Contradicting Toryiama's 2013 interview regarding the movie, of all things).
Even THE MOVIES contradict themselves as well - Super Saiyan Yellow and Super Saiyan God reappears in DBS Broly. Like, wth?
So, what was the point of all that "absorbing the god's power" nonsense? Has it been retconned? Did it ever exist in the anime canon?
BOG and ROF went mostly same, were they using it there? The anime was conceived to follow the Movie, where the form existed.
It's not a matter of twisting information, or inventing things.
It's a matter of the sad truth that the show handled this very poorly.
They inventend Saiyan Beyond God, they noticed it sucked and prevented them from using all the previous transformations, and they removed it without saying anything about it.
That's my take on the matter.
It is written right there. He does not need to transfom to [Super Saiyan] God anymore. Not something I came up with.
Also, the movie partially confirms this by the fact that Goku doesn't even notice that he went Yellow during the fight. He still believed he was in his SSG form for the entire fight.
Also, Goku mentions it to Frieza as well, he doesn't need to transform to Super Saiyan. And that's also the reason he only transforms to Blue.
To put it simply, the Saiyan Beyond God existed ONCE, at least it surely was in the movies. He was not explictly mentioned just like in the anime, but it's there. Information outside the movies supports this.
Then DBS came up. And the deal with DBS is that said form stopped existing at some point (because, let's face it, the idea of removing all Yellow Super Saiyans was just stupid) and reintroduced Yellow Saiyans at the first point available, that is, the Universe 6 Tournament.
This already started creating all sort of problems, and the thing worsened with Super Saiyan God reappiring in the manga, and later in the anime too. (Contradicting Toryiama's 2013 interview regarding the movie, of all things).
Even THE MOVIES contradict themselves as well - Super Saiyan Yellow and Super Saiyan God reappears in DBS Broly. Like, wth?
So, what was the point of all that "absorbing the god's power" nonsense? Has it been retconned? Did it ever exist in the anime canon?
BOG and ROF went mostly same, were they using it there? The anime was conceived to follow the Movie, where the form existed.
It's not a matter of twisting information, or inventing things.
It's a matter of the sad truth that the show handled this very poorly.
They inventend Saiyan Beyond God, they noticed it sucked and prevented them from using all the previous transformations, and they removed it without saying anything about it.
That's my take on the matter.
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1. Not needing super saiyan god isn't the same as not needing super saiyan 1. That is what you said. Goku didn't need to go Super Saiyan 1 anymore, but Toriyama never said that.
2. Outside information supports the idea that Goku absorbed the power of God into his base form. It doesn't say that Goku can't make himself stronger than his base with super saiyan or that he doesn't need super saiyan. It actually supports that he needs super saiyan, actually.
3. You thinking something is stupid has no bearing on anything in the story. And you thinking that the writers also thought this not only has no proof or falsifiability behind it, but is why they brought them back is also based on your conjecture. We don't do that. The manga "worsening" things and all of this meta outside of the universe talk means nothing. It hasn't been retconned. The story demonstrates that Goku's base form got stronger from the God amp and that he can further transform on top of that using the god form. That inference, that Super Saiyan God's new purpose is to replace the new base power Goku has is not supported by the story. Using that the legitimize the idea that Frost isn't strong for example is faulty. The story explicitly demonstrates that Goku did absorb it into his Base by him getting stronger in his base than his fight against beerus, and the portrayal of the concept of Saiyan Beyond God, which is more so a quality of Goku and Vegeta than a transformation or even proof that they don't need to use Super Saiyan God anymore. If anything was retconned it's that they can't use it or don't need it. They can add it on top of themselves. Your interpretation of why super saiyan is being used or why super saiyan god is still used isn't in the story. We can use what you theorize to be true of outside information in our scaling. Sorry.
2. Outside information supports the idea that Goku absorbed the power of God into his base form. It doesn't say that Goku can't make himself stronger than his base with super saiyan or that he doesn't need super saiyan. It actually supports that he needs super saiyan, actually.
3. You thinking something is stupid has no bearing on anything in the story. And you thinking that the writers also thought this not only has no proof or falsifiability behind it, but is why they brought them back is also based on your conjecture. We don't do that. The manga "worsening" things and all of this meta outside of the universe talk means nothing. It hasn't been retconned. The story demonstrates that Goku's base form got stronger from the God amp and that he can further transform on top of that using the god form. That inference, that Super Saiyan God's new purpose is to replace the new base power Goku has is not supported by the story. Using that the legitimize the idea that Frost isn't strong for example is faulty. The story explicitly demonstrates that Goku did absorb it into his Base by him getting stronger in his base than his fight against beerus, and the portrayal of the concept of Saiyan Beyond God, which is more so a quality of Goku and Vegeta than a transformation or even proof that they don't need to use Super Saiyan God anymore. If anything was retconned it's that they can't use it or don't need it. They can add it on top of themselves. Your interpretation of why super saiyan is being used or why super saiyan god is still used isn't in the story. We can use what you theorize to be true of outside information in our scaling. Sorry.
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> Not needing super saiyan god isn't the same as not needing super saiyan 1. That is what you said. Goku didn't need to go Super Saiyan 1 anymore, but Toriyama never said that.
Even though in ROF he EXPLICTLY said to Freezer he doesn't need to transform to Super Saiyan Yellow.
Also, explain me why he turns SSG again in DBS Broly.
> Outside information supports the idea that Goku absorbed the power of God into his base form. It doesn't say that Goku can't make himself stronger than his base with super saiyan or that he doesn't need super saiyan. It actually supports that he needs super saiyan, actually.
Outside information doesn't reference ANYTHING about Goku SBG going Yellow Saiyan. Goku can't do that in DB Heroes. Can't prove something that doesn't exists.
All there is is the statement about Goku transorming inconsciously in BOG, without even noticing it, which of all things, in THE MOVIE, it just shows that the increase in power is non-existent or not worth of mentioning, as Beerus said, his power didn't change.
> It hasn't been retconned.
> If anything was retconned it's that they can't use it or don't need it.
That's the problem.
You aknowledged the fact that Saiyan Beyond God existed at some point, a few posts ago.
The Saiyan Beyond God is a Saiyan who absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God.
Toriyama states the Goku doesn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God anymore.
And what happens next?
Goku goes Super Saiyan God in DBS Broly.
That ALONE, in itself, is a retcon.
It is obvious that there has been a change of plans during the making of DBS.
It can't be claimed that people invent things, when the authors themselves have no idea of what they're doing.
Even though in ROF he EXPLICTLY said to Freezer he doesn't need to transform to Super Saiyan Yellow.
Also, explain me why he turns SSG again in DBS Broly.
> Outside information supports the idea that Goku absorbed the power of God into his base form. It doesn't say that Goku can't make himself stronger than his base with super saiyan or that he doesn't need super saiyan. It actually supports that he needs super saiyan, actually.
Outside information doesn't reference ANYTHING about Goku SBG going Yellow Saiyan. Goku can't do that in DB Heroes. Can't prove something that doesn't exists.
All there is is the statement about Goku transorming inconsciously in BOG, without even noticing it, which of all things, in THE MOVIE, it just shows that the increase in power is non-existent or not worth of mentioning, as Beerus said, his power didn't change.
> It hasn't been retconned.
> If anything was retconned it's that they can't use it or don't need it.
That's the problem.
You aknowledged the fact that Saiyan Beyond God existed at some point, a few posts ago.
The Saiyan Beyond God is a Saiyan who absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God.
Toriyama states the Goku doesn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God anymore.
And what happens next?
Goku goes Super Saiyan God in DBS Broly.
That ALONE, in itself, is a retcon.
It is obvious that there has been a change of plans during the making of DBS.
It can't be claimed that people invent things, when the authors themselves have no idea of what they're doing.
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1. He doesn't need to use super saiyan yellow because his base is strong enough to **** Frieza up. He also said "Yet" in the English dubs, implying he could but it would be over kill. Take that with a grain of salt but there's little to imply that he doesn't need it overall when that's contradicted by everything, including Toriyama's word. God is stronger than his base and all of his super saiyan forms. He needed them to fight Broly because he though they would be good enough in power. Weaker than Blue, stronger than Yellow version 3.
2. Outside information never EXPLICITLY and IRREFUTABLY stated he COULD NOT and using a game mechanic to justify your point is not helpful to my perception of you and your ideas. Not that those matter, it's just that you seem to insist on wasting our time arguing knowing I have a retort ready and don't agree with you, when you already said earlier you weren't interested in talking to me. And using retconned movies to justify there being no increase in power in content written and created WAY after that scene was written is irrational. On top of the fact that in that same movie, Goku transformed back into Super Saiyan God and neutralized something he couldn't in his super saiyan form or base in SECONDS, indicating not only could go access the transformation even with him absorbing the power into his base, but demonstrating that transforming into SSG in that new base level will yield even more power. So even using your retconned movies, your assumptions still do NOT hold up.
3. In the same ******* MOVIE where Goku absorbs the God power he transforms into it again for MORE power on top of what he had. I am aware that SBG exists and of Toriyama's statements. But him stating without forethought what Goku needed and what Goku didn't need when he didn't even know the future of his creations isn't evidence of your ASSUMPTIONS that Goku didn't need regular super saiyan, which you did erroneously imply, just as you demonstrated when you misinterpreted Goku not needing to go Super Saiyan against Frieza's fodder ass when his Base form was enough because Frieza was stronger, and just like you assumed that he couldn't go Yellow because of a VIDEO GAME's Mechanics or a Vague discription of saiyan Beyond God that doesn't explicitly tell you that Goku can't or won't be able to use God or Yellow. The statement can be interpreted to mean "God Ki" in accordance with all the information we have at this current time.
Or, not necessarily you, but people who think like and believed that Goku didn't have the ability to go SSG or that SSG is not accessible to him now, nor would it make him stronger. I can agree that the writers are hacks who are really bad at their job. But I don't base my scaling around what I THINK they MEANT to do, I don't assume my biases are true before I argue them on forums, and I don't care about their intensions if they fail to convey them properly.
2. Outside information never EXPLICITLY and IRREFUTABLY stated he COULD NOT and using a game mechanic to justify your point is not helpful to my perception of you and your ideas. Not that those matter, it's just that you seem to insist on wasting our time arguing knowing I have a retort ready and don't agree with you, when you already said earlier you weren't interested in talking to me. And using retconned movies to justify there being no increase in power in content written and created WAY after that scene was written is irrational. On top of the fact that in that same movie, Goku transformed back into Super Saiyan God and neutralized something he couldn't in his super saiyan form or base in SECONDS, indicating not only could go access the transformation even with him absorbing the power into his base, but demonstrating that transforming into SSG in that new base level will yield even more power. So even using your retconned movies, your assumptions still do NOT hold up.
3. In the same ******* MOVIE where Goku absorbs the God power he transforms into it again for MORE power on top of what he had. I am aware that SBG exists and of Toriyama's statements. But him stating without forethought what Goku needed and what Goku didn't need when he didn't even know the future of his creations isn't evidence of your ASSUMPTIONS that Goku didn't need regular super saiyan, which you did erroneously imply, just as you demonstrated when you misinterpreted Goku not needing to go Super Saiyan against Frieza's fodder ass when his Base form was enough because Frieza was stronger, and just like you assumed that he couldn't go Yellow because of a VIDEO GAME's Mechanics or a Vague discription of saiyan Beyond God that doesn't explicitly tell you that Goku can't or won't be able to use God or Yellow. The statement can be interpreted to mean "God Ki" in accordance with all the information we have at this current time.
Or, not necessarily you, but people who think like and believed that Goku didn't have the ability to go SSG or that SSG is not accessible to him now, nor would it make him stronger. I can agree that the writers are hacks who are really bad at their job. But I don't base my scaling around what I THINK they MEANT to do, I don't assume my biases are true before I argue them on forums, and I don't care about their intensions if they fail to convey them properly.
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> Outside information never EXPLICITLY and IRREFUTABLY stated he COULD NOT
Can you prove the existence of aliens? I cannot. They do not exist.
Can I prove the existsence of SBG SSJ Goku? I cannot. It doesn't exist.
Simple enough concept?
Also, after going SSJ1, Beerus states that his power didn't change much in that BOG movie.
> When you already said earlier you weren't interested in talking to me.
Why getting all of this stuff in some warm, obscure message wall?
Conversations are more enjoyful when ment to be public
> And using retconned movies
Oh, so NOW you acknolwedge they are retconned?
Thought so. Took some time.
> On top of the fact that in that same movie, Goku transformed back into Super Saiyan God and neutralized something he couldn't in his super saiyan form or base in SECONDS, indicating not only could go access the transformation even with him absorbing the power into his base, but demonstrating that transforming into SSG in that new base level will yield even more power.
I'd call it "Post-Rite Super Saiyan God". Sounds a cool name.
Anyway, explain that to Toriyama-sensei, he is the one who said that Goku doesn't need to transform into God anymore.
I'd give an explaination, but then you'd argue I'm doing head-canon, so I'll refrain from that.
On a second thought, leave it be. You already aknowledged there was a retcon in the movies. That is enough.
> In the same ******* MOVIE
Yeah, let's get to the F point!
> I can agree that the writers are hacks who are really bad at their job. But I don't base my scaling around what I THINK they MEANT to do
I've already said, like 5 posts ago, that I understood this.
What I'm complaining NOW is the accusation of coming up with things, even when the same authors don't know what the "RESURRECTION F" are they doing.
Can you prove the existence of aliens? I cannot. They do not exist.
Can I prove the existsence of SBG SSJ Goku? I cannot. It doesn't exist.
Simple enough concept?
Also, after going SSJ1, Beerus states that his power didn't change much in that BOG movie.
> When you already said earlier you weren't interested in talking to me.
Why getting all of this stuff in some warm, obscure message wall?
Conversations are more enjoyful when ment to be public
> And using retconned movies
Oh, so NOW you acknolwedge they are retconned?
Thought so. Took some time.
> On top of the fact that in that same movie, Goku transformed back into Super Saiyan God and neutralized something he couldn't in his super saiyan form or base in SECONDS, indicating not only could go access the transformation even with him absorbing the power into his base, but demonstrating that transforming into SSG in that new base level will yield even more power.
I'd call it "Post-Rite Super Saiyan God". Sounds a cool name.
Anyway, explain that to Toriyama-sensei, he is the one who said that Goku doesn't need to transform into God anymore.
I'd give an explaination, but then you'd argue I'm doing head-canon, so I'll refrain from that.
On a second thought, leave it be. You already aknowledged there was a retcon in the movies. That is enough.
> In the same ******* MOVIE
Yeah, let's get to the F point!
> I can agree that the writers are hacks who are really bad at their job. But I don't base my scaling around what I THINK they MEANT to do
I've already said, like 5 posts ago, that I understood this.
What I'm complaining NOW is the accusation of coming up with things, even when the same authors don't know what the "RESURRECTION F" are they doing.
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1. That's not how proving anything works. Just because you have no evidence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but stating it does may be foolish depending on the context. In this case, it's less me trying to prove Goku can go SS1 as SBG, and more you trying to prove he CAN'T EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NO REASON TO THINK SO. In addition, we're talking about 2 different points. When Goku transformed AGAIN into SSG, it was AFTER Beerus said his power didn't decrease much. Meaning that his second transformation into God took place after Beerus had already said he didn't lose strength from the first time. We then see that same Goku who is comparable to his 1st God transformation struggle and lose to an attack from Beerus ONLY to break out of it with his 2ND transformation into SSG. Him being able to neutralize a blast that was stronger than his previous state's using that form implies it gives him another power boost.
2. Whatever gets you off, Expositionist individual. Lol. I don't understand why you're being two faced about it, but ok.
3. The movies having retconned parts isn't the same as Goku having two base forms being the new retcon. People who think like you tend to go down that road using the same points. All this to say that the movies SPECIFIC actions being retconned into non canon doesn't make Goku's access to any of his forms in the new continuity or how his powers function retconned— none of this "He has no access to super saiyan" shit. You didn't really win anything, but feel good about yourself if you want, I guess.
4. I'll retort with: Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku couldn't transform into super saiyan 1? Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku COULDN'T transform into God, where he didn't need to because of better forms— even though he did it before in BOG? You had to have made these ideas up because they were never present in any of the media. You made a mistaken inference.
2. Whatever gets you off, Expositionist individual. Lol. I don't understand why you're being two faced about it, but ok.
3. The movies having retconned parts isn't the same as Goku having two base forms being the new retcon. People who think like you tend to go down that road using the same points. All this to say that the movies SPECIFIC actions being retconned into non canon doesn't make Goku's access to any of his forms in the new continuity or how his powers function retconned— none of this "He has no access to super saiyan" shit. You didn't really win anything, but feel good about yourself if you want, I guess.
4. I'll retort with: Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku couldn't transform into super saiyan 1? Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku COULDN'T transform into God, where he didn't need to because of better forms— even though he did it before in BOG? You had to have made these ideas up because they were never present in any of the media. You made a mistaken inference.
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> Whatever gets you off, Expositionist individual. Lol. I don't understand why you're being two faced about it, but ok.
Yay, starting to be offensive!
That's EXACTLY why I wanted all of this to be public. So that stuff like this doesn't go unnoticed, friend.
> When Goku transformed AGAIN into SSG, it was AFTER Beerus said his power didn't decrease much.
Except I was referring to his SSJ1 transformations.
With the SSJ1, his power didn't decrease much from God state. It didn't even increase.
So, yeah, if anything, this just proves that SSJ1 over Godly base form is useless.
The SSG form blasting back an attack is not my affair. You said it youself, it's retconned!
> The movies having retconned parts isn't the same as Goku having two base forms being the new retcon.
Uh, i'm pretty sure you aknolewdged the existence of Saiyan Beyond God some posts ago, isn't it?
> You didn't really win anything, but feel good about yourself if you want, I guess.
Lmao, winning? We were competing?
> Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku couldn't transform into super saiyan 1? Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku COULDN'T transform into God, where he didn't need to because of better forms— even though he did it before in BOG?
I dunno. The interview? The movie quotes?
Everything we have been talking for the past 10 posts?
This last part was pointless.
Yay, starting to be offensive!
That's EXACTLY why I wanted all of this to be public. So that stuff like this doesn't go unnoticed, friend.
> When Goku transformed AGAIN into SSG, it was AFTER Beerus said his power didn't decrease much.
Except I was referring to his SSJ1 transformations.
With the SSJ1, his power didn't decrease much from God state. It didn't even increase.
So, yeah, if anything, this just proves that SSJ1 over Godly base form is useless.
The SSG form blasting back an attack is not my affair. You said it youself, it's retconned!
> The movies having retconned parts isn't the same as Goku having two base forms being the new retcon.
Uh, i'm pretty sure you aknolewdged the existence of Saiyan Beyond God some posts ago, isn't it?
> You didn't really win anything, but feel good about yourself if you want, I guess.
Lmao, winning? We were competing?
> Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku couldn't transform into super saiyan 1? Where the **** did you get the idea that Goku COULDN'T transform into God, where he didn't need to because of better forms— even though he did it before in BOG?
I dunno. The interview? The movie quotes?
Everything we have been talking for the past 10 posts?
This last part was pointless.
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1. I was joking. I was trying to be ******* cute because what you said can be interpreted sexually. But ok. Just be blatant with you wanting to keep it public when "on a wall" isn't somewhere safe from me being reported. You're only derailing threads this way. You could still report me or whatever if I actually said something horrible to you.
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No need to, I didn't want this to be public just to report someone. I don't even know you. Just wanted to be protected from unnecessary harshness.
Just try to be nicer with the others that disagree, o-kay?
Let's close this argument here then, we've went on and on for quite a long time.
Just try to be nicer with the others that disagree, o-kay?
Let's close this argument here then, we've went on and on for quite a long time.
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2. None of what you said makes sense or is true. Goku's power drastically increased when he went SS as he always does. That's the whole point of him all of a sudden fighting even harder and even better against Beerus after he was "destroying his world" or "enjoying destruction". Goku wasn't even going all out in his God power, so him not realizing that he's going super saiyan and him getting serious and going all out were one and the same means that they're different steps of power. There was no statement that says Super Saiyan is useless, infact, Toriyama explicitly kept it in mind in those interviews you like to go on about so much. So, again. Assumptions. And you keep applying me saying one thing is retconned to me saying another thing is retconned, in an attempt to "win" this argument. And you bother to call me childish? Ok.
3. Saiyan Beyond God isn't a second base form, it never was. It was just Goku having power in base comparable to that of his SSG form. Again. You assumed that.
4. You seem to be trying to get something out of talking to someone you have no desire to argue earnestly with. You made it clear you're only doing this to get me reported Incase I hurt your feelings. So I would gather that you're trying to compete with me on some fashion. I don't know why you would bother hiding that fact— rather pretending that you're good at doing it.
5. The interviews and quotes never said anything about Goku being incapable of doing anything he was before. You assumed that. You assume too much. That's my take.
3. Saiyan Beyond God isn't a second base form, it never was. It was just Goku having power in base comparable to that of his SSG form. Again. You assumed that.
4. You seem to be trying to get something out of talking to someone you have no desire to argue earnestly with. You made it clear you're only doing this to get me reported Incase I hurt your feelings. So I would gather that you're trying to compete with me on some fashion. I don't know why you would bother hiding that fact— rather pretending that you're good at doing it.
5. The interviews and quotes never said anything about Goku being incapable of doing anything he was before. You assumed that. You assume too much. That's my take.
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