Pokemon Types Revisions REDUX

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Let's try this again. This is literally copy and pasting my post from last thread. Many people on the last thread agreed with me. But it's so cluttered, but if you want to read it, go ahead.

Psychic Types
The biggest one. Basically Psychic Types is universally defined as Telekinesis and Mind Manipulation. At first glance this would make sense. A lot of Psychic types are able to manipulate the minds of others...but not all have shown to do so, or given some reason to why they should. Not all Psychic types should have Mind Manipulation unless shown or implied through Dex entries.

Not only that, but we have Dark types, Steel types and other Psychic Types have a resistance to Mind Manipulation. This should not be so. The reason is because they can resist the Psychic typing and its attacks, however there are some issues.

• Psychic Types aren't the only Pokemon to be able to manipulation minds. Some Ghost and Dark types are able to do so as well. Even some Pokemon of other types can. It is not Psychic type exclusive.

• Psychic Type moves are not Mind Manipulation. In order to prove said point, let me go over every single offensive Psychic type move (and those that target other Pokemon). This does not mean Psychic Type doesn't have Mind Manipulation under it's hood. It certainly does. Doesn't mean resisting Psychic moves doesn't grant mind resistance as the majority of Psychic moves ARE factually not mind manipulation.

Ally Switch: Teleportation.

Confusion: Telekinesis.

Dream Eater: Dream Manipulation. Even then, someone with Liquid Ooze causes it to hurt the user. This means that is also has some type of Physical Attribute.

Extrasensory: This is an invisible projectile.

Future Sight: Precog + Invisible projectile.

Gravity: Gravity Manipulation.

Guard Swap and Split: This is simply trading Durability with the opponent.

Heal Block: Regen Negation.

Heal Pulse: Healing.

Healing Wish: Healing.

Heart Stamp: And attack launched after you have your opponent let their guard down.

Heart Swap: Swaps stats with the opponent.

Hyperspace Hole: Portal Creation and an attack.

Hypnosis: The only Psychic move that can be argued as Mind Manipulation. "Then that means Dark types resist it". Sorry, but no dice as Hypnosis still works on Dark types.

Imprison: Power Nullification, if you share the same move as the user.

Instruct: Game Mechanics ridden. Allows you ally to use their previous attack a second time in said turn.

Kinesis: Literally using telekinesis to bend a spoon and lowers accuracy.

Light Screen: Portrayed as Forcefield Creation.

Lunar Dance: Healing.

Luster Purge: A burst of light. (Have we accepted that or just energy?)

Mist Ball: A projectile.

Photon Geyser: A projectile.

Magic Coat: Status reflection.

Magic Room: Nullifies the power of items, i.e Link's worst enemy.

Miracle Eye: Biological or Information Manipulation. Specifically allows Psychic moves to harm Dark types.

Mirror Coat: Attack Reflection.

Power Split and Swap: Attack Potency swapping.

Psybeam: Projectile.

Psychic: Telekinesis....or that odd rainbow colored wave Metagross used in Gen 3....Telekinesis.

Psychic Fang: A bite that destroys barriers.

Psychic Terrain: Game Mechanics.

Psycho Boost: Telekinetic blast.

Psycho Shift: Status reflection.

Psyshock and Psystrike: Telekinetic blast that pierces through defenses.

Psywave: A psychic energy wave.

Reflect: Forcefield Creation.

Role Play: Power Mimicry.

Skill and Speed Swap: Swaps abilities and speed with the opponent.

Stored Power: Energy blast.

Synchronoise: Shockwave.

Telekinesis: Self explanatory.

Teleport: Self explanatory.

Trick: Swaps Equipment.

Trick Room: A field that causes the slower opponent to be faster at all times.

Wonder Room: A field that swaps durability.

Zen Headbutt: Willpower focused into a powerful headbutt.

So based upon all the moves shown in series, psychic type moves are not Mind Manipulation, but in fact Telekinesis and Psychic blasts. The only one that can be Mind Manipulation is Hypnosis, and it still works on those resistant, and even the one type that is supposed to be "immune" to it.

Ghost Types
This is another problematic one. To put it simply, we should not grant those resistant to Ghost moves to be resistant to Soul Manipulation. This is because while a lot of Ghost Pokemon are souls and some can in fact manipulate souls, none of these attacks are actually ever resisted by any Pokemon.

I don't need to list all the Ghost moves for this one. None affect the soul. The other one is Curse Manipulation. But the move Curse is not resisted by any type that is resistant to Ghost moves. Same with Destiny Bond and Grudge. Most Ghost moves are a for of Shadow/Darkness Manipulation.

Fighting, Normal, Bug, Flying and Dragon Types
What to do here? I believe it is quite simple. These types should not be considered outside of Pokemon v Pokemon matches. Types like Fighting are often considered Martial Arts, however when we have moves like Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Comet Punch, etc being Normal Type and not being any different from moves considered Fighting types, we start getting contradictions. We end up with thing like "Rayquaza is resistant to Saitama's punches because they are fighting type", despite them reasonably being able to be Normal type as well.

Bug Type is just weak to Bug Type moves. What is this? A weakness to Bug/insectoid enemies? So if I put Mewtwo against Bugzzy does Mewtwo have a disadvantage due to the fact that it's a giant stag beetle?

That doesn't make sense. As it isn't the appearance of the enemy, but the attack.

Flying type projectiles are more or less Air Manipulation, but what of the physical blows? Well, I doubt is we put Virizion against a giant bird, she would be weak to it's every move. The same follows with Dragon.

This gets rid of arbitrary Resistances and Weaknesses.

Rock and Ground Types
How do we handle this? Like both fit into Earth Manipulation. However, A Pidgeot is indeed weak to Rock based moves, but not ground moves, despite that. So I need help on how to handle this.

Links for List of Moves
Psychic- https://pokemondb.net/move/type/psychic

Ghost- https://pokemondb.net/move/type/ghost

That's really all from me.

Rock and Ground


TL;DR

• Not all Steel, Dark and Psychic types should not automatically have a resistance to Mind Manipulation just because they resist Psychic moves as most Psychic moves that are indeed Mind hax actually still effect these Pokemon (Hypnosis) and moves that do effect the mind (Confuse Ray and Supersonic) are not Psychic type. And moves like Confusion causes confusion via the vertigo while Psybeam causes confusion for unknown reasons.

• Not all Normal and Dark types should resist Soul Manipulation due to the fact that while a lot of Ghost types are souls, can manipulate souls, etc. Most if not all Ghost type moves do not revolve around harming the soul. Every Pokemon can hit souls (according to files anyone), however, they don't hit them in the Durability Negation sense.

• Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying and Dragon Type Weaknesses and resistances are to only be used in Pokemon vs Pokemon matches, otherwise they end up as arbitrary. We went over this untrained kick vs trained kick on the last thread. Overall, this shouldn't matter outside of Pokemon vs Pokemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Im not exactly seeing the issue here though. If you resist psychic typing, you should resist all of what it provides, not just some."

That's not how it works. The series blatantly contradicts this. They resist Psychic moves but not Hypnosis. If they resisted mind manipulation, how does Confuse Ray and Supersonic effect them?

 

[Ercosore]

Doesnt confuse ray and supersonic fall under status inducement? Same with Hypnosis.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How come you don't post my arguments, man?

And to answer your question, because Confuse Ray and Supersonic are light and sound based respectively, not mind based.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This was the first comment I posted in the last thread, so i'll repost it with some edits:

Some things.

-Heart Swap is actually mind manipulation as far as the anime goes at least. Manaphy in the Pokemon Ranger movie used this to not only switch the minds of Ash and a Pokemon Ranger, but also let May telephathically communicate with Ash and restore the confused minds of, at least, dozens of water pokemon, including Kyogre.

-Hypnosis working on Dark types? Examples of this would be nice please. Otherwise if its game related its more than likely game mechanics.

-You didnt mention Confusion also leaving the mind in a confused state after its used, which a good number of psyhic moves do too. I remember someone saying in the last thread that this is done because of targets being "thrown around" and what not, but the problem is not all psychic moves do this. They induce confusion via having the actual ability to make targets confused.

-Psychic, Mewtwo used it to control minds like Nurse Joy. Unless thats just Mewtwo's own thing.

-Fighting I already explained (or attempted to explain) before. The difference between moves that are normal and those fighting are because the former are just simple strikes while the latter is supported by fighting skills to amplify them (a karrate chop from a martial artist will always cut more bricks than a random everyday person) and makes use of fighting energy (Aura, Focus blast, etc.). Both are "punches and kicks" but one has more to its name to be different and ironically enough, it explains why Fighting types are > Normal types. Your best bet would be to argue stuff like Drain Punch, which can't be explained other than it absorbing the fighting/life energy of opponents.

-For the bug part, to put it simply, yes. If Mewtwo's moves have less effect on bug-related enemies because bugs are resistant to psychic abilities, then Mewtwo's moves are just less effective on them then on others. Its a weakness for a reason. "It being stupid" doesn't really disprove this, a weakness is a weakness.

-Flying, well Virizon is both a grass and fighting type, which is 4x as weak to air moves than regular, so she isnt a good example. Anyway, sure pitting her against a giant bird wont matter as long as it isnt, like, in the same tier as Virizon. Plus, she'd only be weak against the birds attacks that can actually be considered wind manipulation. Using the power of air I mean.

-I think the difference for Rock and Ground is Rock is more, well, rock like stones and such, which air kinda can't defeat. While ground is explicity more sand based, and while sand is technically rock, its in a different form which air can relate to far better (like air swirling up sand). Think of Avatar when it comes to this. Not all Earth benders can bend sand despite it being the same element. Toph had to train her sand bending skill to where she can only make a small sand castle of Ba Sing Se. Other than that, I have no thoughts on this.

I'll wait to see what others think of the rest.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

As far as Confuse Ray goes, that can easily just be ghost/spirit/light based since the move says its done via a "sinsiter ray". It's mind manipulation ofc, but not through psychic methods. It's done from other means.

Supersonic I actually don't think should count as mind hax. It's just really good sound manipulation that makes the mind confused because of how sound works.

EDIT: Cal beat me to it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because, they were under the assumption I said Psychic type was not mind manipulation.

Doesn't counter Hypnosis and the fact that Confusion has a perfectly reasonable solution to why it causes confusion. Vertigo. Confusion is not a mind attack. That's a fact. And even then, even in verse, they do not always cause it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Status Effect Inducement" isn't its own power in a vacuum. It's just a collection of powers with a similar effect. If you set someone on fire that isn't just Status Effect Inducement, but Fire Manip as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

I have to agree with Dragon on his points, seems kinda funky giving X type Resistance to Y ability when not all of Z attacks do that Y ability as its main point.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Heart Swap is actually mind manipulation as far as the anime goes at least. Manaphy in the Pokemon Ranger movie used this to not only switch the minds of Ash and a Pokemon Ranger, but also let May telephathically communicate with Ash and restore the confused minds of, at least, dozens of water pokemon, including Kyogre."

Do Dark Types resist it? Look it up. Even then, has a Dark Type ever resisted it? This is coming from a legendary after all. And the mind hax part is not even the combat version of it.

"Hypnosis working on Dark types? Examples of this would be nice please. Otherwise if its game related its more than likely game mechanics."

Even without sources this wouldn't be game mechanics. https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/6f/Polibo_Hypnosis.png Azzy himself posted this one.

"You didnt mention Confusion also leaving the mind in a confused state after its used, which a good number of psyhic moves do too. I remember someone saying in the last thread that this is done because of targets being "thrown around" and what not, but the problem is not all psychic moves do this. They induce confusion via having the actual ability to make targets confused."

And why do we suddenly not treat this as game mechanics? Nothing about confusion say "targets the mind" Not to mention it's not perfect.

"Fighting I already explained (or attempted to explain) before. The difference between moves that are normal and those fighting are because the former are just simple strikes while the latter is supported by fighting skills to amplify them (a karrate chop from a martial artist will always cut more bricks than a random everyday person) and makes use of fighting energy (Aura, Focus blast, etc.). Both are "punches and kicks" but one has more to its name to be different and ironically enough, it explains why Fighting types are > Normal types. Your best bet would be to argue stuff like Drain Punch, which can't be explained other than it absorbing the fighting/life energy of opponents."

We went over this countless times. Even Azzy made fun at how to be blunt idiotic this trained kick vs untrained kick logic is. Even Cal disagree with this. The majority of people on the thread disagree with this. And not all fighting moves use this fighting energy. And a kick from a martial artist would not be less effective than one from a normal person.

"-Flying, well Virizon is both a grass and fighting type, which is 4x as weak to air moves than regular, so she isnt a good example. Anyway, sure pitting her against a giant bird wont matter as long as it isnt, like, in the same tier as Virizon. Plus, she'd only be weak against the birds attacks that can actually be considered wind manipulation. Using the power of air I mean."

I mentioned this in the OP. Obviously the Air part is solid. But just getting hit by a bird should not.

"For the bug part, to put it simply, yes. If Mewtwo's moves have less effect on bug-related enemies because bugs are resistant to psychic abilities, then Mewtwo's moves are just less effective on them then on others. Its a weakness for a reason. "It being stupid" doesn't really disprove this, a weakness is a weakness."

That's not the issue. The issue is, what is classified as "bug type". Not all bug appendages are the same. There are Pokemon with Bug moves who don't even remotely share bug physiology.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also, according to good old Bulbapedia, Heart Swap is Soul swapping.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heart_Swap_(move)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal you can't use fanmade explanation for Type effectiveness as one of your argument.

Also related to the mind =/= mindhax. Psychic just seems to be a bracket term for everything related to the mind, including telekinesis, telepathy, and yes mindhax. But not just the latter.

But that's exactly what my blog on the matter claimed it to be. Well...that plus magic.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Do Dark Types resist it? Look it up. Even then, has a Dark Type ever resisted it? This is coming from a legendary after all. And the mind hax part is not even the combat version of it."

-This was never asked of me, but since Heart Swap is a psychic move, yes they would resist this. Hypnosis is the only one that can be considered to go past Dark Typing and even then I have something to say about it. Also, it coming from a legendary shouldn't have anything to do with it though. Legendaries don't automatically bypass type resistances all of a sudden. Plus, Heart Swap isn't a combat-type move to begin with so whats the "combat version of it" part supposed to mean?

"Even without sources this wouldn't be game mechanics. https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/6f/Polibo_Hypnosis.png Azzy himself posted this one."

-Alright so now the next question would be is this consistent or just a one time thing? Moves working on types they're not supposed to has happened in Pokemon before that are regarded as inconsistencies and never pop up again. Ex: Pikachu electrifying a ground type despite the latter having immunity.

"And why do we suddenly not treat this as game mechanics? Nothing about confusion say "targets the mind" Not to mention it's not perfect."

-Because it has happened outside of the games. For example, in the D&P saga, Fantina has used one of her ghost pokemon to battle Zoey's Glameow and when hit with Confusion, Glameow gets confused. Thats definitely inducing real confusion on the mind. Plus, it's a psychic attack so not saying "target the mind" would probably be unneccesarry as it's more self-explanatory for moves that aren't just TK or otherwise.

"And not all fighting moves use this fighting energy."

This part of the topic is more important, so i'll drop the other stuff. What exactly proves not all fighting type moves use fighting energy? Energy is used for the basis of, well, everything obviously. But even more so, pokemon have shown to use fighting energy in fighting moves that aren't pure energy attacks like Focus Blast or Aura Sphere. Examples would include Focus Punch, High Jump Kick, etc. Not to mention there are fighting moves that allow Fighting Types to heighten their inner fighting energy to make themselves more powerful. Examples include moves like Focus Energy, Meditiate, or Bulk Up. All of this proves fighting pokemon can use fighting energy for pretty much anything they do related to the type. This is pretty much the equivalant of say Goku using his KI for KI attacks but also KI powered physical strikes.

Normal Types don't do this^.

"That's not the issue. The issue is, what is classified as "bug type". Not all bug appendages are the same. There are Pokemon with Bug moves who don't even remotely share bug physiology."

Not having the physiology =/= not being a bug type though. And im sure I don't need to explain the many examples of pokemon not having apperances that live up to why they are said typing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, according to good old Bulbapedia, Heart Swap is Soul swapping.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heart_Swap_(move)

Then it's both soul and mind hax as when Manaphy swaps their souls, their minds are also tied up into it.

Even without that, the move still allowed May to telepathically communicate with Ash and restore the confused minds of a large group of Pokemon. Kyogre included.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Swapping stats. That is the combat version. Also according to bulbapedia it is soul manipulation.

It csnnot be disputed as it has shown up here and it is a concept in game. Hynosis hits Dark types. That is a fact.

Association fallacy. Just because one move can do something doesn't mean all moves of said type can do such a thing. Also scan of this?

Here we go again. It is you who has to prove they all do. Define fighting energy. Focus Energy is normal type. So normal type do do this. Also, stat buffing is not fighting type only. And here lies the probablem. Equalizing all energies like Ki to fighting type.

Okay explain X-Scissor please. Having claws =/= bug physiology. Unless you want to say Weavile, Haxorus, etc have bug physiology.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Slashing with bug energy in an scissor fashion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So bug moves are bug energy? What's bug energy? What do other verses have that count as bug energy?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

interesting

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes, just bug energy (can't explain it any other way), no other verses don't, and you spelled "have" wrong ovo.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So how do we equalize a bug type weakness and resistance?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We don't.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But you have Kukui arguing here that we do/should.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The hell is bug energy?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The hell is bug energy?

The stuff Bug type moves use in pokemon.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't recall the words "bug energy" ever being used.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I don't recall the words "bug energy" ever being used.

Which is why cal said that "can't explain it any other way"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Read my last reply for Heart Swap.

That doesn't really amount to anything though. "In-game" is game mechanics and happening once can be an inconsistency like how I said it can be. And even in the worst case scenerio, that wouldnt mean Dark Types don't resist mind hax, that would just make Hypnosis that good.

It'll take a bit to find the scan, but I never said all moves would do this so don't put words in my mouth. It doesn't need to be all moves anyway, only ones that the type would resist, which it does.

Fighting energy as in Aura or magnified Infinity Energy for the purposes of Martial Arts mastery. And no I don't need to prove they all do, that would be a reach. If moves like Bulk Up can strength the user's power and magnify it, thats enough proof the say the type in general stems from it to use fighting energy for things other than pure energy attacks. Speaking of that, my bad on naming Focus Energy it's not one of them. Focus Energy just increases the chance of doing more damage. but the rest stand. And I never said stat buffing is fighting type only but how they do so is fighting type only. The effect =/= the method.

Cal answered this but i'll add my own 2 sense. "Bug energy" would easily just be energy gathered from nature since thats where bugs reside in and then coverted in a way bugs use it to make it solely for insects.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It hasn't ever been used. Although that would explain Signal Beam....in which ALSO causes confusion like Psybeam Cal. ovo

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Show me a Dark type resisting mind hax please. Everything points to them not being able to do so. Nothing regarding their physiology, lore or anything says resistance to Mind attacks. Just Psychic moves which are for the most part, not mental based. They mostly have an after effect of confusion which other non psychic moves also do. Like DynamicPunch and Signal Beam. Burden of proof is on you as I have proven my claim.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

At this point, I feel like we are making things up as we go...Fighting Energy, Bug Energy. Now I just wait for Bird Energy and Normal Energy.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Show me a Dark type resisting mind hax please. Everything points to them not being able to do so. Nothing regarding their physiology, lore or anything says resistance to Mind attacks. Just Psychic moves which are for the most part, not mental based. They mostly have an after effect of confusion which other non psychic moves also do. Like DynamicPunch and Signal Beam. Burden of proof is on you as I have proven my claim.

You kinda answered your own question though. The psychic moves that cause confusion to the mind can't be used on dark types, thus they would be resistant to it. The "non psychic moves" cause confusion through other methods that have nothing to do with psychic capability.

 

[Kaltias]

Skimming through the bug type moves, it simply seems "stuff that is related to bugs".

Using a web, a stinger, staring at light, calling other insects to beat up the opponent etc

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Btw, here are the scans I talked about before. My bad again its not Confusion, its Psybeam. Its coming from my TV so my bad for low quality but it saves me the trouble of going through whole anime sites to find the episode.

Here, Fantinas Mismageous uses Psybeam and to try and dodge it Zoeys Glameow jumps. The attack hits Glameow and a second later its confused, floating around from the attacks left over psychic energy. This would be flat out mind manipulation.

 

[PaChi2]

My favourite part is Rock and Ground. I agree with those. Rock-Type Llama god best god.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dragon. I can show you a Ghost- type resisting mindhax.

 

[PaChi2]

@Dragon. I can show you a Ghost- type resisting mindhax.

Inb4 its anime haunter against Sabrina.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Close. It's from that line.

Gastly does so here

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So we're just ignore Psybeam flat out attacking Glameow telepathically when hitting it?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Sorry, if this comment sounds harsh (spoiler alert, it will). irl college stuff just went completely fubar and I am far from being in a good mood.

This concept of "It causes confusion therefore it is mind hax" is bullshit.

Psybeam- A beam of psychic energy that CAN confuse the target. It has a chance to it isn't 100%. The confusion is a possible result of being HIT with the damn beam. A dark type resists it because it resist the damage from the beam in the first place. The beam doesn't even have a chance to affect the mind as it can't even affect the body.

Confusio- A telekinetic attack that use TELEKINESIS to toss an opponent around, causing confusion via vertigo. "What about the non telekinetic confusion moves. They cause damage and still only have a chance to cause confusion. The means the attack has to first effect them before the "mind hax" activates. However, if the attack never hits, the mind hax doesn't even have a chance to happen. There is clearly a process of events here. Nothing else about it implies mind haxing. And saying "because it's Psychic type" is complete bullshit and makes no sense whatsoever. Not all Psychic moves are the same. Also let's go over these "confusion inducing moves" shall we? Seeing as there is apparently a whole bunch of Psychic moves that do such a-- oh look at that, only two of them even have the chance at confusion. Confusion and Psybeam are the only psychic moves in the History of Pokemo, that even has the chance to confuse.

Signal Beam is the exact same thing as Psybeam, instead it is bug type. "It's a beam of light". It's no brighter than Psybeam. Matter of fact , I'd argue Psybeam is much brighter. Both are peculiar rays.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Psybeam_(move) https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Signal_Beam_(move)

Now I ask once again. Show me a feat of a Dark type resisting mind hax. I don't want Gastly, or irrelevant Pokemon X or Y. I want a Dark type. Any other Pokemon that has resisted said powers can have the damn resistance. But don't go grouping a single type of Pokemon under the same roof due them being Dark and another being Psychic.