Pokemon 8-A tournament; round 4: Growlithe vs. Natu

[Daddybrawl]

Wait, is Intimidate effected by Magic Bounce? It’s not even a Status move, it’s an ability.
Dang Magic Bounce sounds annoying lol

 

[Imaginym]

Wait, no, I think I was mistaken. It seems to only be for MOVES, lol. Sorry.
Unless someone has evidence it works on abilities.
So no Magic Bounce Intimidate.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Great. Even better, cause If Natu decides to be cheeky and use Me First to copy a Fire Move (i.e Flamethrower, since Natu’s likely keeping distance), not only will it not do much to Growlithe, but thanks to Flash Fire it’ll even increase his damage output.

So really, it’s looking like the only real sources of damage Natu has is Psychic, Drill Peck, and Future Sight, all of which are good, but still limiting compared to his total moveset.

Edit: Oh, and a couple Egg moves, but most are Melee- the exact opposite of where Natu wants to be.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm leanong toward Growlithe, but I'll wait

 

[Lou_change]

What if natu uses skill swap.

 

[Imaginym]

What if natu uses skill swap.

Why would it?

 

[Daddybrawl]

What if natu uses skill swap.

I agree in that Skill Swap doesn’t seem too in-character for it. However, if it does for some reason do so, let’s see…

It’ll start getting Attack Buffs for getting hit with Growlithe’s super-effective moves. Fire Type Moves will increase its own Fire-Type Moves Power, and Natu will have suddenly become really scary to Growlithe thanks to Intimidate. 2 of those don’t seem very useful considering Natu’s lack of good Melee and Fire Type Moves.

Growlithe would wake up earlier in battle, whenever it got burned or something Natu would as well, and it would reflect status moves. This means no Haze-ing or Simple Beam-ing, as well as Confuse Ray-ing.

The main Advantage Natu gets from this is simply getting rid of Growlithes advantages. However, in doing so, it also renders itself vulnerable to Roar. Roar will now no longer be reflected, and without any statements of Bravery or the like (quite the opposite, in fact) this fear Manip will probably actually work.

 

[Imaginym]

I agree in that Skill Swap doesn’t seem too in-character for it. However, if it does for some reason do so, let’s see…

It’ll start getting Attack Buffs for getting hit with Growlithe’s super-effective moves. Fire Type Moves will increase its own Fire-Type Moves Power, and Natu will have suddenly become really scary to Growlithe thanks to Intimidate. 2 of those don’t seem very useful considering Natu’s lack of good Melee and Fire Type Moves.

Flash Fire's immunity to Fire is nice, though.

Growlithe would wake up earlier in battle, whenever it got burned or something Natu would as well, and it would reflect status moves. This means no Haze-ing or Simple Beam-ing, as well as Confuse Ray-ing.

Not sure Growlithe CAN get burned. (Fire type.) & IIRC, Synchronize only affects Burn, Paralysis & Poison, not Sleep, Freeze, Confuse, or other statuses, oddly. If there's evidence in other media, do bring it up, please.
But so far, Synchronize seems useless for Growlithe.
(Though, Magic Bounce is nice against Leer & Confuse Ray, among other things.)

The main Advantage Natu gets from this is simply getting rid of Growlithes advantages. However, in doing so, it also renders itself vulnerable to Roar. Roar will now no longer be reflected, and without any statements of Bravery or the like (quite the opposite, in fact) this fear Manip will probably actually work.

If Growlithe uses it. Do we know it won't bark past the initial start, after it's gone into fighting?

 

[Daddybrawl]

If Growlithe uses it. Do we know it won't bark past the initial start, after it's gone into fighting?

Once it realizes it’s Ability’s been swapped (which should be easy considering Natu literally gains Intimidate, so it’ll suddenly seem a lot scarier), it should probably know what to do. Especially if he’s already had Roar reflected at him, which isn’t unlikely to happen either.

 

[FinePoint]

I can clear up some gameplay mechanics.
-1 stage is actually 0.67x.
Magic bounce only works on moves, not abilities.
Synchronize only shares burn, paralysis, and poison, but as a fire type Growlithe is immune to being burned.

I find it unlikely that Natu would skill-swap. Instead I think Growlithe would accidently nerf itself from magic bounce using any of its growling/howling/roaring moves.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I find it unlikely that Natu would skill-swap. Instead I think Growlithe would accidently nerf itself from magic bounce using any of its growling/howling/roaring moves.

Funnily enough, Growlithe doesn’t use Growl, Roar can be resisted (it’s resisted in-game as it only works on people your level or less, and is literally just a fearsome roar, while Growlithe is stated to fearlessly defend against stronger foes), and Howl only raises its own attack.

 

[FinePoint]

Funnily enough, Growlithe doesn’t use Growl, Roar can be resisted (it’s resisted in-game as it only works on people your level or less, and is literally just a fearsome roar, while Growlithe is stated to fearlessly defend against stronger foes), and Howl only raises its own attack.

Funny. He might hit himself with leer but that's pretty useless for Natu. Roar will work on himself since he is his own level, but looking at the move list... he learns Agility and Howl.
One agility would give growlithe 2x speed, and one howl would give him 1.5x attack. Amps can't be restricted, so he could easily set himself up for an easy blitz.

Would it fear manip itself through roar first, though?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Would it fear manip itself through roar first, though?

That’s why I say he can resist it. Context tells us that it’s just a scary Roar via it’s showings in the Anime (Uses it, opponent gets scared and runs away), it’s description (uses a terrifying roar to scare enemies away), and how it works in-game (only works on people who don’t know if they’re stronger than you), which means it isn’t forcing fear, just really scary on its own. Growlithe is constantly described as ‘fearlessly loyal’ and ‘fearlessly defending its trainer against stronger foes’, so I really don’t think it’ll be getting Roared away by its own Roar.

 

[FinePoint]

That’s why I say he can resist it. Context tells us that it’s just a scary Roar via it’s showings in the Anime (Uses it, opponent gets scared and runs away), it’s description (uses a terrifying roar to scare enemies away), and how it works in-game (only works on people who don’t know if they’re stronger than you), which means it isn’t forcing fear, just really scary on its own. Growlithe is constantly described as ‘fearlessly loyal’ and ‘fearlessly defending its trainer against stronger foes’, so I really don’t think it’ll be getting Roared away by its own Roar.

I don't recall there ever being evidence of an equally-leveled opponent resisting roar, either in the anime or in the game (subtracting special abilities). This sounds like pure speculation. In-game, growlithe would be affected by its own roar. For lack of evidence to the contrary, that's what I assume would happen in reality too. The pokemon moves tend to be more haxy than their descriptions.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I don't recall there ever being evidence of an equally-leveled opponent resisting roar, either in the anime or in the game (subtracting special abilities). This sounds like pure speculation. In-game, growlithe would be affected by its own roar. For lack of evidence to the contrary, that's what I assume would happen in reality too. The pokemon moves tend to be more haxy than their descriptions.

I’m not using the Game Mechanics in what I’m saying, as I’m basing my evidence off of his Pokédex Descriptions. Which all describe him as fearless, commonly going against stronger enemies, etc., as well as the evidence that all say it’s just a Scary roar (anime showings, game description, etc.) to say that Growlithe wouldn’t be scared by his own roar. Sadly, the Game Mechanics don’t include Pokédex Descriptions in their battles, or else Gardivore would make black-holes mid-match and no one would use her lol

 

[FinePoint]

Maybe. In any case it's only one scenario, and I think in most scenarios growlithe takes this from simply having better amping abilities, plus supereffective moves.

 

[FinePoint]

By the way, don't we only accept naturally learned moves? I'm seeing a lot of discussion of TM/breeding moves.

 

[Daddybrawl]

We haven’t discussed any TMs (to my knowledge), we were discussing Egg Moves. Those are on the profile, so I’m 95% sure we allow them.

 

[Imaginym]

Once it realizes it’s Ability’s been swapped (which should be easy considering Natu literally gains Intimidate, so it’ll suddenly seem a lot scarier), it should probably know what to do. Especially if he’s already had Roar reflected at him, which isn’t unlikely to happen either.

If it makes the correlation that "Natu is scarier = Natu & me switched abilities". (Though, it might noticing Magic Bounce somehow MIGHT trigger it, but I'm not sure Natu would be clueless enough to trigger Magic Bounce after giving Growlithe it.)

Roar (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Roar seemed to have a success related to Level in Generations 5 & earlier.

 

[FinePoint]

We haven’t discussed any TMs (to my knowledge), we were discussing Egg Moves. Those are on the profile, so I’m 95% sure we allow them.

It seems really strange to allow selectively bred pokémon in random battles...

 

[Daddybrawl]

It seems really strange to allow selectively bred pokémon in random battles...

I’m afraid I’m not the one who made the decision, I’m just using the profile. Maybe a more knowledgeable member can help you out, if need be?

 

[Daddybrawl]

If it makes the correlation that "Natu is scarier = Natu & me switched abilities". (Though, it might noticing Magic Bounce somehow MIGHT trigger it, but I'm not sure Natu would be clueless enough to trigger Magic Bounce after giving Growlithe it.)

I’m not sure if it would have a choice. Most of Growlithes Range is Fire moves, and Natu’s keeping their distance. If he hits, he’ll see they now have Flash Fire- his ability.

 

[FinePoint]

Flash Fire only boosts the power of fire type moves of 50%, and growlithe will get the most mileage out of dark-type moves anyways.
By the way, does that mean we're allowing IQ skills? That might change things drastically.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I still have no clue what IQ Skills are or how they work, but last I checked they had to be specified. idk though.

 

[Imaginym]

Flash Fire only boosts the power of fire type moves of 50%, and growlithe will get the most mileage out of dark-type moves anyways.

Flash Fire (Ability) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

"Flash Fire makes the Pokémon immune to Fire-type moves and will activate when hit by one. When activated, the power of the Pokémon's Fire-type moves is increased by 50%. While subsequent hits by Fire-type moves will not provide further increases in power, the Pokémon remains immune to the moves."

By the way, does that mean we're allowing IQ skills? That might change things drastically.

I don't recall what our current stance is on them. For the sake of simplicity, I'll assume no unless given evidence we allow them.

 

[FinePoint]

"Flash Fire makes the Pokémon immune to Fire-type moves and will activate when hit by one. When activated, the power of the Pokémon's Fire-type moves is increased by 50%. While subsequent hits by Fire-type moves will not provide further increases in power, the Pokémon remains immune to the moves."

I know it makes you immune to fire-type moves as well, I'm just saying that the power-up aspect won't be useful on Natu, and Growlithe would rather use dark-type moves anyways.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I know it makes you immune to fire-type moves as well, I'm just saying that the power-up aspect won't be useful on Natu, and Growlithe would rather use dark-type moves anyways.

Not to mention that Natu doesn’t have any Fire moves in the first place. It was only mentioned once Skill Swap was brought up.

 

[Imaginym]

Actually, if Natu uses Skill Swap, & before Growlithe realizes Fire-type moves don't work anymore, Growlithe uses a Fire-type move & Natu uses Me First....
THEN Natu could use a Fire-type move. 50% more power from Me First, +50% more power from Flash Fire if it's been hit by a Fire-type move since gaining this. (Though odds are, I'd assume Growlithe would realize after 1, MAYBE 2 attacks that Fire isn't damaging it anymore.)
So there's a VERY small chance Natu uses a 225% effective power Fire-type move. Well, 112.5% since Growlithe would resist it.

But yes, this is VERY improbable, lol.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Still, Skill-Swap’s not very useful (and actually gives Growlithe a Wincon), in addition to not being very in-character. So they’re kind of screwed in that scenario either way, lol

 

[Imaginym]

Still, Skill-Swap’s not very useful (and actually gives Growlithe a Wincon), in addition to not being very in-character. So they’re kind of screwed in that scenario either way, lol

If Natu uses it. Other moves seem more likely based on Pokedex entries. Dunno about other media.

 

[FinePoint]

Actually, if Natu uses Skill Swap, & before Growlithe realizes Fire-type moves don't work anymore, Growlithe uses a Fire-type move & Natu uses Me First....
THEN Natu could use a Fire-type move. 50% more power from Me First, +50% more power from Flash Fire if it's been hit by a Fire-type move since gaining this. (Though odds are, I'd assume Growlithe would realize after 1, MAYBE 2 attacks that Fire isn't damaging it anymore.)
So there's a VERY small chance Natu uses a 225% effective power Fire-type move. Well, 112.5% since Growlithe would resist it.

But yes, this is VERY improbable, lol.

I think this kind of thinking proves a point... All of natu's wincons involve really gimmicky happenstances. Growlithe is just stronger overall as a straight attacker, which is why I think it wins most of the time.

 

[Lou_change]

My argument has mostly been relying on natu's precog and large number of options(and bias for my sword playthrough)
But given no one has been swayed by my argument I have realized that doesn't doesn't really make sense(plus I realized my bias) I am going to vote Growlithe fra.

 

[Imaginym]

The most likely way Natu wins is Roar getting Magic Bounced.
But that's like a 50% or 67% chance (Roar or go in with Bite/Crunch.), & there's also a good chance Growlithe doesn't retreat & even if Natu Leers, outdamages with Bite or Crunch. Natu has the better healing, but Flinch & DEF Drops mean it may not win in the long term, so Growlithe's healing being more short term makes it in a slightly better position.
Natu can't entirely keep its distance because Growlithe can track it by smell & just start burning everything down. As long as Growlithe doesn't run away from its own reflected Roars before it realizes Roar is no good, it probably wins the damage race.

I'm gonna vote Growlithe, High Difficulty; It has the better opening moves for a damage race, but barely, & usually wins before the long term matters, so long as Confuse Ray or such doesn't screw things up.

Who's voting what again?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'll go with Growlithe too

 

[Lou_change]

I am going to vote Growlithe fra

 

[FinePoint]

I vote Growlithe FRA.

 

[Daddybrawl]

My vote has been revealed since my first post, lol

 

[Imaginym]

The opening post has been updated to account for the posted votes.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Grow Lite FRA

 

[Imaginym]

Grow Lite FRA

The opening post has been updated to account for your vote.