Pokemon 8-A tournament; round 4: Growlithe vs. Natu

[Imaginym]

Growlithe vs Natu
Round 4

Fight!
Growlithe: 7 ( @Gilad_Hyperstar , @Lou_change , @FinePoint , @Daddybrawl , @Peppersalt43 , @Sonicflare9 , @JustANormalLemon ), plus myself (If that counts.).
Natu:

(Per the tournament's rules, Speed is equalized & items are restricted.)

 

[Daddybrawl]

Hmm. Natu is very haxed, but I personally think Growlithe takes it.

First off, Growlithe has a Super-Effective Move in the form of Crunch and Bite, as well as Iron Tail if we give them Egg Moves. In addition to that, it can self-heal with an egg move Morning Sun, and can ensure it’s attacks hit via Odor Sleuth if Natu decides to be a pain via keeping Distance or creating illusions. Natu had self-heal as well via Wish, but that takes more time than Morning Sun, although I think it heals more.

What I think really gives Growlithe the win though is it’s Starting Move. Pokédex states that “It is very defensive of its territory- it will drive its enemies away by Biting and Barking’. It also states that “its bark has so much majesty that it makes those who hear it grovel before it”, at least according to the profile.

Meanwhile, Natu’s Pokédex says it commonly darts around by Skipping, because it can’t fly, and if you look very hard, it’s constantly observing you. That doesn’t tell us much, but at the very least, it tells us it’s used to carefully pecking Fruit from Cacti, so it’ll likely either use Peck or abuse the fact that it stays at a constant Distance to use moves like Psychic.

None of these are decisive or Super-Effective, while Growlithe actively leads with its Super Effective Moves and the Empathetic Manip Bark that would force Natu to Grovel. If the Profile is to be believed on the Groveling Bark, I’m giving it to Growlithe for superior moveset and Empathic Manip.

Edit: Grovel Bark is listed for Growlithe, but is an entry for Arcanine. I won’t use it as an argument. However, I still think Growlithe takes it via superior Starting Moves and Odor Sleuth.

Edit 2: Nevermind. I forgot it also had Roar, another move that can fall under ‘driving enemies away with Biting and Barking’, and uses Fear Manip to drive the enemy away. In addition, it’s a move that can be used even if Natu grabs Growlithe via Psychic and starts tossing him around.

 

[Imaginym]

Hmm. Natu is very haxed, but I personally think Growlithe takes it.

First off, Growlithe has a Super-Effective Move in the form of Crunch and Bite, as well as Iron Tail if we give them Egg Moves.

Iron Tail is Super-Effective??

In addition to that, it can self-heal with an egg move Morning Sun, and can ensure it’s attacks hit via Odor Sleuth if Natu decides to be a pain via keeping Distance or creating illusions. Natu had self-heal as well via Wish, but that takes more time than Morning Sun, although I think it heals more.

Natu gets Double Team? But yeah, tracking via scent might be helpful.

What I think really gives Growlithe the win though is it’s Starting Move. Pokédex states that “It is very defensive of its territory- it will drive its enemies away by Biting and Barking’. It also states that “its bark has so much majesty that it makes those who hear it grovel before it”, at least according to the profile.

Meanwhile, Natu’s Pokédex says it commonly darts around by Skipping, because it can’t fly, and if you look very hard, it’s constantly observing you. That doesn’t tell us much, but at the very least, it tells us it’s used to carefully pecking Fruit from Cacti, so it’ll likely either use Peck or abuse the fact that it stays at a constant Distance to use moves like Psychic.

It isn't always observing YOU.


"Because its wings aren't yet fully grown, it has to hop to get around. It is always staring at something."
"Natu cannot fly because its wings are not yet fully grown. If your eyes meet with this Pokémon's eyes, it will stare back intently at you. But if you move even slightly, it will hop away to safety."
"It runs up short trees that grow on the savanna to peck at new shoots. A Natu's eyes look as if they are always observing something."
"The look in its eyes gives the impression that it's carefully observing you. If you approach it, Natu will hop away."


It looks like it's observing SOMETHING, apparently, but it only stares at you if you lock eyes with it. Though, Growlithe is a little like a The Real World dog, & in real world dogs, eye contact is a sign of aggression, so an aggressive Growlithe might try to make eye contact.

There's also the question of if Growlithe's Empathic Manipulation abilities are affected by Synchronize (Probably not. Status Effects only.) & Magic Bounce. The latter, probably.

None of these are decisive or Super-Effective, while Growlithe actively leads with its Super Effective Moves and the Empathetic Manip Bark that would force Natu to Grovel. If the Profile is to be believed on the Groveling Bark, I’m giving it to Growlithe for superior moveset and Empathic Manip.

Given Magic Bounce, Growlithe's Empathic Manipulation via Barking might get reflected by Magic Bounce, forcing IT to grovel.

Funnily enough, Growlithe does not learn Growl (This is because Growl is a cute noise, meant to be endearing going by descriptions; Also, contest category of CUTE.). But it does learn Howl & Roar.
So if it does usually bark, it might use Roar.

It controls a big territory. If it detects an unknown smell, it roars loudly to force out the intruder.
Very friendly and faithful to people. It will try to repel enemies by barking and biting.
It has a brave and trustworthy nature. It fearlessly stands up to bigger and stronger foes.


Because of Magic Bounce, there might be a possibility that Growlithe tries Roar early on & Natu's Magic Bounce reflects it, making Growlithe retreat, giving Natu the win.

But Growlithe does have entries about it being brave, so maybe it won't scared away?


In any case, Natu, I could see its IC moves being MAYBE Future Sight (It's always staring at SOMETHING.), or Peck, Leer (Staring) or Drill Peck (Egg Move.).
Natu also gets Roost as an Egg Move, which heals as much as Morning Sun, but has more PP. It's questionable if it uses it. It hops a lot, but it only doesn't fly because its wings aren't fully developed. So will it "land" to use Roost?
& Natu might try to keep distance if Growlithe makes eye contact, which it will.... But I'm unsure if it uses its ranged moves.

In melee, though, Growlithe definitely wins by Bite/Crunch, as opposed to Natu pecking, but Natu may have the better healing, & Growlithe's Empathic Manipulating/Roar would work against it, maybe.

 

[Lou_change]

Miracle eye does the same as odor sleuth and the bird also has roost to heal and does magic bounce not counter odor sleuth. Plus me first would be really helpful.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Iron Tail is Super-Effective??

Steel beats Flying, and Natu is part Flying.

Natu gets Double Team? But yeah, tracking via scent might be helpful.

Funnily enough, iirc Odor Sleuth ignores Evasion Boosts, making Double Team practically useless.

It isn't always observing YOU.


"Because its wings aren't yet fully grown, it has to hop to get around. It is always staring at something."
"Natu cannot fly because its wings are not yet fully grown. If your eyes meet with this Pokémon's eyes, it will stare back intently at you. But if you move even slightly, it will hop away to safety."
"It runs up short trees that grow on the savanna to peck at new shoots. A Natu's eyes look as if they are always observing something."
"The look in its eyes gives the impression that it's carefully observing you. If you approach it, Natu will hop away."


It looks like it's observing SOMETHING, apparently, but it only stares at you if you lock eyes with it. Though, Growlithe is a little like a The Real World dog, & in real world dogs, eye contact is a sign of aggression, so an aggressive Growlithe might try to make eye contact.

That is correct. However, I don’t believe this matters much to the fight at hand, and was mostly mentioning it to make sure I was getting down every Pokédex Entry that could be viable.

There's also the question of if Growlithe's Empathic Manipulation abilities are affected by Synchronize (Probably not. Status Effects only.) & Magic Bounce. The latter, probably.

I think Roar, as a Status Move that doesn’t deal a Status Effect, would be immune to Magic Bounce. In-Game, Roar doesn’t deal a Status Effect, just scares the opponent really really bad lol, and I don’t think it ever gets bounced back at the enemy. As for Empathetic Manipulation, yikes, you must’ve been typing as I edited my post- I pointed out that this was marked for Growlithe, but is an Arcanine Entry. My bad.

In any case, Natu, I could see its IC moves being MAYBE Future Sight (It's always staring at SOMETHING.), or Peck, Leer (Staring) or Drill Peck (Egg Move.).
Natu also gets Roost as an Egg Move, which heals as much as Morning Sun, but has more PP. It's questionable if it uses it. It hops a lot, but it only doesn't fly because its wings aren't fully developed. So will it "land" to use Roost?
& Natu might try to keep distance if Growlithe makes eye contact, which it will.... But I'm unsure if it uses its ranged moves.

Oh yeah, Natus Range Game is way better than Growlithes. Psychic alone keeps Growlithe at a distance, and future sight is incredibly useful because of its Precog. However, the entries don’t say whether it starts with these or not, and I’m not sure if it’ll have time to Roost while it’s being munched on by an angry dog, lol.

Miracle eye does the same as odor sleuth and the bird also has roost to heal and does magic bounce not counter odor sleuth. Plus me first would be really helpful.

Yes, but Odor Sleuth is actually useful, while Growlithe does not have any evasion moves it uses. And why would Magic Bounce counter Odor Sleuth? This doesn’t even make sense, it’s just Growlithe sniffing out the opponent, it doesn’t really effect Natu that much.
And I fail to see how Me First helps Growlithe in this situation other than just using a less powerful version of Growlithe’s Move, First,

 

[Imaginym]

Steel beats Flying, and Natu is part Flying.

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/types/steel/

Steel Resists Flying. It is not Super-Effective against Flying.

Funnily enough, iirc Odor Sleuth ignores Evasion Boosts, making Double Team practically useless.

Yeah, Natu doesn't learn Double Team except TMs & such. Not Level-Up or Egg Moves. I was saying that Natu doesn't learn any Evasion related moves.

I think Roar, as a Status Move that doesn’t deal a Status Effect, would be immune to Magic Bounce. In-Game, Roar doesn’t deal a Status Effect, just scares the opponent really really bad lol, and I don’t think it ever gets bounced back at the enemy. As for Empathetic Manipulation, yikes, you must’ve been typing as I edited my post- I pointed out that this was marked for Growlithe, but is an Arcanine Entry. My bad.

Roar (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

"Affected by Magic Coat and Magic Bounce"
You may be thinking of Magic Guard, which prevents damage from stuff other than Stasuses.
Also, whoops, yeah, that is an Arcanine thing.

Oh yeah, Natus Range Game is way better than Growlithes. Psychic alone keeps Growlithe at a distance, and future sight is incredibly useful because of its Precog. However, the entries don’t say whether it starts with these or not, and I’m not sure if it’ll have time to Roost while it’s being munched on by an angry dog, lol.

Agreed. So long as Growlithe doesn't use Roar early on & have its bravery fail it & Natu doesn't heals & Drill Peck too often or use its range, it should be fine.

Yes, but Odor Sleuth is actually useful, while Growlithe does not have any evasion moves it uses. And why would Magic Bounce counter Odor Sleuth? This doesn’t even make sense, it’s just Growlithe sniffing out the opponent, it doesn’t really effect Natu that much.

Miracle Eye (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

• Affected by Magic Coat and Magic Bounce

Natu MIGHT use it in in-character, since it stares a lot & its opponent is using Dark-type moves here, but yes, Miracle Eye is not really useful here, lol.

But Growlithe does have the better sense of smell, even without Odor Sleuth, probably. Natu MIGHT have better mobility, since it's notedly very good at jumping.

"Natu has a highly developed jumping ability. The Pokémon flaps and leaps onto tree branches that are taller than grown-up people to pick at the tree's new shoots."
"Although it still can't fly, its jumping power is outstanding. It jumps way up into trees and plucks the buds from the branches."

And I fail to see how Me First helps Growlithe in this situation other than just using a less powerful version of Growlithe’s Move, First,

Me First uses the move at greater power. 50% more power, in fact.
The user cuts ahead of the target to copy and use the target's intended move with greater power. This move fails if it isn't used first.

Whether it's IC for Natu or not, IDK.

 

[Lou_change]

Steel beats Flying

You are thinking of rock types

Yes, but Odor Sleuth is actually useful, while Growlithe does not have any evasion moves it uses. And why would Magic Bounce counter Odor Sleuth? This doesn’t even make sense, it’s just Growlithe sniffing out the opponent, it doesn’t really effect Natu that much.

But that is how magic bounce works.

And I fail to see how Me First helps Growlithe in this situation other than just using a less powerful version of Growlithe’s Move, First,

I mean for Natu and it buffs and attacks power by fifty percent

 

[Daddybrawl]

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/types/steel/

Steel Resists Flying. It is not Super-Effective against Flying.

That’s my bad, then. My apologies.

Yeah, Natu doesn't learn Double Team except TMs & such. Not Level-Up or Egg Moves. I was saying that Natu doesn't learn any Evasion related moves.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clarification.

Roar (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

"Affected by Magic Coat and Magic Bounce"
You may be thinking of Magic Guard, which prevents damage from stuff other than Stasuses.
Also, whoops, yeah, that is an Arcanine thing.

Hm. That’s odd, ngl lol. Must have. Thanks. Anyways, it is not only described as Brave, but Fearless in Battle, as well as knowing Roar itself- so perhaps it won’t Run Away?

Agreed. So long as Growlithe doesn't use Roar early on & have its bravery fail it & Natu doesn't heals & Drill Peck too often or use its range, it should be fine.

To compact this, as long as Growlithe doesn’t use Roar and cause itself to run away (which it may be able to resist via it’s described Bravery and Fearlessness, notable among Pokemon), and Natu doesn’t heal too much or use its one-shot move too often (which iirc is hard to hit?) then it should be fine.

Miracle Eye (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

• Affected by Magic Coat and Magic Bounce

Natu MIGHT use it in in-character, since it stares a lot & its opponent is using Dark-type moves here, but yes, Miracle Eye is not really useful here, lol.

But Growlithe does have the better sense of smell, even without Odor Sleuth, probably. Natu MIGHT have better mobility, since it's notedly very good at jumping.

"Natu has a highly developed jumping ability. The Pokémon flaps and leaps onto tree branches that are taller than grown-up people to pick at the tree's new shoots."
"Although it still can't fly, its jumping power is outstanding. It jumps way up into trees and plucks the buds from the branches."

Doesn’t Odor Sleuth also auto-hit, similar to Lock-On, or am I imagining things again? Looking at the Bulbapedia Page, it does.

Me First uses the move at greater power. 50% more power, in fact.
The user cuts ahead of the target to copy and use the target's intended move with greater power. This move fails if it isn't used first.

Whether it's IC for Natu or not, IDK.

I think 50% stronger is still weaker, considering we’re probably comparing what would normally be a Super Effective move like Bite or Crunch.

But that is how magic bounce works.

Ngl, I’m calling Game Mechanics on this one. Odor Sleuth is literally just sniffing the enemy, tracking them by scent. This may as well say Magic Bounce reflects your ability to Smell, which is just nonsensical if you ask me.

 

[Lou_change]

Ngl, I’m calling Game Mechanics on this one. Odor Sleuth is literally just sniffing the enemy, tracking them by scent. This may as well say Magic Bounce reflects your ability to Smell, which is just nonsensical if you ask me.

As opposed to wagging you tail to lower your opponent's guard being reflected.

 

[Daddybrawl]

As opposed to wagging you tail to lower your opponent's guard being reflected.

At least it’s actually doing something to your opponent.
You can’t tell me it blocking your ability to Smell isn’t game mechanics. It also blocks Lock-On, which is the opponent just taking extra time to aim at you- should we say it prevents you from Aiming?

 

[Imaginym]

That’s my bad, then. My apologies.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clarification.

Hm. That’s odd, ngl lol. Must have. Thanks. Anyways, it is not only described as Brave, but Fearless in Battle, as well as knowing Roar itself- so perhaps it won’t Run Away?

To compact this, as long as Growlithe doesn’t use Roar and cause itself to run away (which it may be able to resist via it’s described Bravery and Fearlessness, notable among Pokemon), and Natu doesn’t heal too much or use its one-shot move too often (which iirc is hard to hit?) then it should be fine.

One-shot move?

Doesn’t Odor Sleuth also auto-hit, similar to Lock-On, or am I imagining things again? Looking at the Bulbapedia Page, it does.

Odor Sleuth causes all accuracy checks against the target to ignore any changes to the target's evasion stat stages. If Odor Sleuth's target is a Ghost-type Pokémon, it also removes the target's immunity to Fighting-type and Normal-type moves. Odor Sleuth's effect ends when the target switches out.

It makes changes to evasiveness ignored, it doesn't guarantee hitting.

I think 50% stronger is still weaker, considering we’re probably comparing what would normally be a Super Effective move like Bite or Crunch.

That would be weaker against Growlithe than Natu, yes. Though, Flinch or DEF drop are possibilities with Bite or Crunch, respectively, & Natu would be hitting first.

Nonetheless, Odor Sleuth is something Growlithe already does.

"It controls a big territory. If it detects an unknown smell, it roars loudly to force out the intruder."
"GROWLITHE has a superb sense of smell. Once it smells anything, this POKéMON won’t forget the scent, no matter what. It uses its advanced olfactory sense to determine the emotions of other living things."

If it only negates Evasion changes, which Natu doesn't use, & Growlithe already tracks by smell, then it's not much better than Natu using Miracle Eye. Despite both probably being IC for their respective Pokemon, lol.

 

[Lou_change]

At least it’s actually doing something to your opponent.
You can’t tell me it blocking your ability to Smell isn’t game mechanics. It also blocks Lock-On, which is the opponent just taking extra time to aim at you- should we say it prevents you from Aiming?

To bad that is how it works.

 

[Daddybrawl]

One-shot move?

Ima start looking up these names before saying things, I think I’m too forgetful. I confused Drill Peck with, what is it, it’s a move similar to Guillotine? edit: Horn Drill

Odor Sleuth causes all accuracy checks against the target to ignore any changes to the target's evasion stat stages. If Odor Sleuth's target is a Ghost-type Pokémon, it also removes the target's immunity to Fighting-type and Normal-type moves. Odor Sleuth's effect ends when the target switches out.

It makes changes to evasiveness ignored, it doesn't guarantee hitting.

In generation IV, it also bypasses accuracy checks to hit, which I believe means Auto-Hit.

That would be weaker against Growlithe than Natu, yes. Though, Flinch or DEF drop are possibilities with Bite or Crunch, respectively, & Natu would be hitting first.

Hitting First doesn’t matter much when he’s hitting harder imo

Nonetheless, Odor Sleuth is something Growlithe already does.

"It controls a big territory. If it detects an unknown smell, it roars loudly to force out the intruder."
"GROWLITHE has a superb sense of smell. Once it smells anything, this POKéMON won’t forget the scent, no matter what. It uses its advanced olfactory sense to determine the emotions of other living things."

If it only negates Evasion changes, which Natu doesn't use, & Growlithe already tracks by smell, then it's not much better than Natu using Miracle Eye. Despite both probably being IC for their respective Pokemon, lol.

Ironic, ain’t it?

To bad that is how it works.

And I am claiming it is Game Mechanics, and therefore shouldn’t be translated to an actual Battle. ‘Too bad, that’s how it works’ does not refute that claim.

 

[Imaginym]

Ima start looking up these names before saying things, I think I’m too forgetful. I confused Drill Peck with, what is it, it’s a move similar to Guillotine?

Drill Peck is an 85 BP move with no secondary effect. Horn Drill is a OHKO move that Natu & Xatu do not learn.

In generation IV, it also bypasses accuracy checks to hit, which I believe means Auto-Hit.

Generation IV​

Odor Sleuth now only causes accuracy checks against the target to ignore changes to its evasion stat stages if its evasion stat stage is greater than 0.

Odor Sleuth now also bypasses accuracy checks to always hit, unless the target is in the semi-invulnerable turn of a move such as Dig or Fly.

I believe that's for Odor Sleuth itself hitting, not moves used after Odor Sleuth.

Hitting First doesn’t matter much when he’s hitting harder imo

Depending on their max stamina, it might matter, if the match is a pure damage race.

Ironic, ain’t it?

Lol, yes.

 

[Lou_change]

The positive is supported you have to prove the negative.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Depending on their max stamina, it might matter, if the match is a pure damage race.

That’s fair. Wonder what the ‘Dex says about them stamina wise. Hmmm… we already know it isn’t afraid to go against stronger foes, but says nothing about how well it does so. Oh! Ultra Sun says ‘It has to be quite fierce to defend itself from Rockruff’, which… trains by running around. So it’s main training is endurance training, that’s at least Something.

Meanwhile, I can’t find anything that says something about Natus stamina.

The positive is supported you have to prove the negative.

I used my evidence by comparing it to other moves Magic Bounce supposedly blocks. For example, Lock-On, which is simply described as taking extra time to aim- yet we don’t treat Magic Bounce as making you unable to aim, because that‘s unreasonable. Magic Bounce also doesn’t reflect self-targeting Status Moves, because they don’t affect them. Therefore, we shouldn’t treat it as making you unable to use Odor Sleuth, because it doesn’t even do anything to Natu. It’s just sniffing them out, that’s not even a move half the time.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Odor Sleuth now only causes accuracy checks against the target to ignore changes to its evasion stat stages if its evasion stat stage is greater than 0.

Odor Sleuth now also bypasses accuracy checks to always hit, unless the target is in the semi-invulnerable turn of a move such as Dig or Fly.

Hm, I think I’ll look it up real quick. The wording’s confusing ngl, at least to me. Please I swear I’m not stupid

Edit: Sorry for double posting, this was supposed to be an edit to the above post lol

 

[Imaginym]

That’s fair. Wonder what the ‘Dex says about them stamina wise. Hmmm… we already know it isn’t afraid to go against stronger foes, but says nothing about how well it does so. Oh! Ultra Sun says ‘It has to be quite fierce to defend itself from Rockruff’, which… trains by running around. So it’s main training is endurance training, that’s at least Something.

Rockruff trains by running around, right?

Meanwhile, I can’t find anything that says something about Natus stamina.

Natu's best basis for its stamina is that it can't fly, so it hops everywhere, lol. Not the best.

 

[Lou_change]

making you unable to aim, because that‘s unreasonable

Proof

 

[Daddybrawl]

Rockruff trains by running around, right?

Correct. Sounds like endurance training to me, cause what else would that train lol. And that’s better than nothing, I suppose.

Also, looking it up, board game tips tells me it functions similar to lock-on, and DvD94 from Gamefaqs tells me it does the same, although both are a bit sketchy ngl.

Proof

Proof… for telling you how we don’t treat it?
You want me to prove that Magic Bounce doesn’t not let anyone aim? How about the fact that no ones arguing all of Growlithe’s attacks will miss, lol

 

[Imaginym]

Correct. Sounds like endurance training to me, cause what else would that train lol. And that’s better than nothing, I suppose.

Also, looking it up, board game tips tells me it functions similar to lock-on, and DvD94 from Gamefaqs tells me it does the same, although both are a bit sketchy ngl.

I trust Bulbapedia more than them. Plus, Lock-On & Mind Reader would be seriously underpowered if Odor Sleuth just gave you their effects for the whole battle.

 

[Lou_change]

Lock on is not just aiming it gives attacks homing properties and it actually isn't effected by magic bounce

 

[Daddybrawl]

I trust Bulbapedia more than them. Plus, Lock-On & Mind Reader would be seriously underpowered if Odor Sleuth just gave you their effects for the whole battle.

I was looking that up cause i wasn’t sure what Bulbapedia was specifically talking about. Aka, I have no clue what ‘Bypasses Accuracy Checks to Hit’ means, and you said ‘I believe’, so I was under the assumption you weren’t certain either.

Lock on is not just aiming it gives attacks homing properties and it actually isn't effected by magic bounce

Wait, since when was it not effected by Magic Bounce… geez, I've been stumbling all over this, huh.

Even then, Odor Sleuth still isn’t even always a move- once again, it’s just tracking the opponent via smelling them. That’s just one of your 5 senses, it’s unreasonable to say Magic Bounce just completely makes you unable to be smelt (Smelled?), and you haven’t said why it’s reasonable. And it doesn’t even do anything to the opponent, why would smelling someone be reflected?

 

[Lou_change]

Even then, Odor Sleuth still isn’t even always a move- once again, it’s just tracking the opponent via smelling them. That’s just one of your 5 senses, it’s unreasonable to say Magic Bounce just completely makes you unable to be smelt (Smelled?), and you haven’t said why it’s reasonable. And it doesn’t even do anything to the opponent, why would smelling someone be reflected?

I don't know it just does that it works on miracle eye as well how but in the end it doesn't even matter.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I don't know it just does that it works on miracle eye as well how but in the end it doesn't even matter.

Exactly. ‘It just does that’ is a signifier that it’s game mechanics. There’s no reason it does that. There’s no reason it should do that- it just does. It only does it in the games, and we never see it reflected in the Anime (then again it‘s hardly used in the anime...) so it’s probably Game Mechanics.

 

[Lou_change]

Then why is it affected and lock on isn't.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Then why is it affected and lock on isn't.

You did state that Lock On also causes the attacks to home in, yes? This is also supported by the Anime. In fact, in the Anime, it goes as far as to even Mark the Target and cause attacks to home in on them. Or, in another sense, actually doing something to them. Lock-On is also an actual Move, but Odor Sleuth is something that’s as much as a ‘Move’ as smelling your food is.

 

[Lou_change]

That doesn't answer the question why the developers made it so odor sleuth is effected by magic bounce but lock on is not effected by magic bounce.

 

[Daddybrawl]

That doesn't answer the question why the developers made it so odor sleuth is effected by magic bounce but lock on is not effected by magic bounce.

Oh, I apologize. I misread the question.

As for that question, I can’t say why Odor Sleuth is and Lock-On Isn’t. I am, unfortunately, not a developer of Pokemon. However, I do know that the way it’s treated in-game makes no sense, and has no justification, and therefore should be treated as Game Mechanics.

We should probably actually begin studying the match, as at this point we’ve spent several moments discussing one move.

Natu has the advantage of Range, with Psychic and Future Sight useful for keeping a distance. Odor Sleuth actually can clear Illusions in the anime, so if Natu uses Confuse Ray, it won’t be that effective for long. Both have self-healing, but Roost actually takes a moment of Rest, which won’t be available if Growlithe keeps up the pressure. Growlithe also has superior Melee game, as well as (supposedly) better Stamina through having to commonly contend against Rockruff, who trains their endurance via running around, vs Natu’s… basic Pokemon Stamina.

Roar is available as an option, but Growlithe already fights with practically no fear, and Natu has Magic Bounce.

 

[Imaginym]

"It controls a big territory. If it detects an unknown smell, it roars loudly to force out the intruder."
"Very friendly and faithful to people. It will try to repel enemies by barking and biting."
"It has a brave and trustworthy nature. It fearlessly stands up to bigger and stronger foes."

These indicate Roar might be used. (Or Howl, maybe?)
& fights with practically no fear is a little bit of an exaggeration. It goes against bigger, stronger foes, & is brave & trustworthy, yeah.

 

[Daddybrawl]

These indicate Roar might be used. (Or Howl, maybe?)
& fights with practically no fear is a little bit of an exaggeration. It goes against bigger, stronger foes, & is brave & trustworthy, yeah.

It also has “It fearlessly stands up to stronger foes” and “It Will fearlessly bark at any opponent to protect their trainer from harm”. If it already faces stronger foes with little fear, it may not be afraid of its own roar, and Magic Bounce just reflects it back.

Oh hey , yeah, Howl can also raise its attack, although it may have trouble getting in close if Natu abuses Psychic to just constantly throw Growlithe back.

 

[Imaginym]

Natu's opening move is honestly probably Leer. It's literally just staring. If Growlithe makes eye contact, it'll hop away to safety. Since Natu won't be gaining any distance, it'll probably teleport, or try to hop into a tree.
For actual attacks, Peck or Drill Peck. Psychic MIGHT be used, I assume, because it's a strong telekinetic force, & that'll be good if Natu wants to hold in place to keep observing Growlithe.

That's where it might diverge, since if Growlithe doesn't follow.... Maybe it'll try to burn the tree down?

But Natu is only described as looking like it's observing you; It's unclear if it is observing. But it could be that it's observing since it stares back intently when locking eyes, only "hopping away to safety" IF you move.

Future Sight may be IC, & Sucker Punch ("Ambush") might be IC, since it seems to prefer observation & safety. By extension, MAYBE Confuse Ray, Haze or Teleport?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Natu's opening move is honestly probably Leer. It's literally just staring. If Growlithe makes eye contact, it'll hop away to safety. Since Natu won't be gaining any distance, it'll probably teleport, or try to hop into a tree.
For actual attacks, Peck or Drill Peck. Psychic MIGHT be used, I assume, because it's a strong telekinetic force, & that'll be good if Natu wants to hold in place to keep observing Growlithe.

Leer sucks, but most of Natu’s attacks are Special, so it won’t do much in the big picture. May weaken him against Drill Peck, but Melee is also where Growlithe thrives.

That's where it might diverge, since if Growlithe doesn't follow.... Maybe it'll try to burn the tree down?

It is a fire type, so that’s fair. A solid Flamethrower should do it.

Future Sight may be IC, & Sucker Punch ("Ambush") might be IC, since it seems to prefer observation & safety. By extension, MAYBE Confuse Ray, Haze or Teleport?

Future Sight is practically the main move of Natu and Xatu, although Natu may use it less, it’s fair to assume they’ll use it a bit. However, if Natu just starts spamming Future Sight, Growlithe can start spamming Morning Sun to heal itself In-between the Future Sights.
Sucker Punch isn’t much to worry about, as Growlithe stars in Melee, and even has an ability to increase its attack when hit by a Dark Type Move.
I’ve already covered Confuse Ray, but I forget what Haze does. Teleport could be a problem, however, as it’s a large Mobility advantage. Thankfully, Growlithe isn’t short on Ranged Attacks in case Natu decides to run.

 

[Imaginym]

but I forget what Haze does.

Haze is black smoke that resets stat changes.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Haze is black smoke that resets stat changes.

Ah. Useful if they start getting worried about the stat raises from Sucker Punch or Howl, but the smoke at least won’t affect Growlithe‘s vision too much thanks to fighting with smell.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah. Useful if they start getting worried about the stat raises from Sucker Punch or Howl, but the smoke at least won’t affect Growlithe‘s vision too much thanks to fighting with smell.

Sucker Punch does not cause stat changes. You may be thinking of Crunch. (Or maybe Power-Up Punch?)

 

[Daddybrawl]

Sucker Punch does not cause stat changes. You may be thinking of Crunch. (Or maybe Power-Up Punch?)

Growlithes Justified increases his physical stats when hit by a Dark-Type Move, such as Sucker Punch.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah, right. Justified is +1 ATK, IIRC.

 

[Daddybrawl]

+1 Attack = More Power to hit Natu with, especially if he can nab them with a Crunch or Bite while they’re still in Melee range. +1 doesn’t seem like much, but it’s also super-effective, yikes.

 

[Imaginym]

+1 Attack = More Power to hit Natu with, especially if he can nab them with a Crunch or Bite while they’re still in Melee range. +1 doesn’t seem like much, but it’s also super-effective, yikes.

Indeed. +1 ATK means double damage goes to triple damage. If Natu ambushes via Sucker Punch to trigger Justified that is.

I guess another problem for Growlithe is Intimidate triggers, but Magic Bounce, so Growlithe would be at -1 ATK. In game mechanics, an ATK stage of -1 is 0.75x what the ATK would be.