Yeah no. "Overwhelm" is a very vague way of saying that, simply so, Rayquaza is superior to them by any given amount. Whats actually shown >>>> A defintion and from actual showings, absolutely nothing says Base Ray can stomp them. Hell, the only time we actually see the Primals take Ray on is in the anime, which of all things, goes further against your idea that base is that much above them when Mega Ray couldnt beat them with anything less than its signature move.
Overwhelm is the literal word used.
"Rayquaza's power overwhelmed that of the two Primal Pokemon". Base Rayquaza is quite literally, in base, strong enough to overwhelm the two Primals, simultaneously, to such an extent, he didn't just beat them, he overwhelmed them. Basic english skills here.
What's actually shown? We're shown that Base Rayquaza is able to shrugg off things that can knock the primals on their ass so we're shown he's superior too, we're also shown he can fight on par with Deoxys, something that it would take the two of them together to contend with. In the anime Mega Ray one shot them with Dragon Ascent, and in the manga, which, hey, is where the feat and scaling comes from, Base Rayquaza walks off something that put both Primals on their ass out cold. So we have Mega Rayquaza one shotting both Primals with Dragon Ascent in the anime, the games explicitly saying that Base Rayquaza is more than enough to single handily beat both Primals, and in the manga it being quite clear that and even shown that the Primals are at least half of Deoxys' feat, which is something base Rayquaza scales to in full by virtue of being as powerful as Deoxys in base.
Not to mention, your also ignoring the fact that Groudon and Kyogre were handicapped against the meteor via Archie and Maxie's death weakening them. And that weakened them due to them being connected to the primals via the red/blue orbs.
Blatantly false, we've actually gone through this before so cut the that shit out, I'm not about to repeat myself again. Archie's and Maxie's death weakening them is completely hyperbole, it's something you outright made up, it's never said anywhere at all. And to add onto that, Archie and Maxie died, because they were exhausting to much energy while training. And even after they were dead, the Primals remained in their Primal forms, untill they were knocked out, by something base Rayquaza could walk off, because he literally does. I'm not here to argue your headcanon, you're taking something and extrapolating it beyond belief here to suit your argument, when in reality, if what you were saying is true, well for starters, they'd have lost primal reversion right away, instead of staying in it till getting struck, not only that, the Primals were never stated to be handicapped, and if they were, it would have happened after everything that matters.
Okay? I never denied that. Im denying that Base Rayquaza can stomp them. Pay attention.
Yet you're arguing that by arguing the primals couldnt stop the meteor even together, when base rayquaza scales to the meteor feat in full. Do you even proof read the shit you're saying? Because half the things you say go against what you actually want. ****, I hope you realize I'm only saying Base Rayquaza is only 2x the Primals alone right? Which, I'm pretty sure is the absolute minimum he can even be in regards to them.
The same legends that her and her people stand by 100%? Not only that, the world is facing a life or death crisis. Zinnia wouldnt be stupid enough to waste her entire time to help Rayquaza achieve a form to stop said threat if he didnt actually need it.
Yes, the legends that say "Rayquaza in base defeated both primals single handily, later on we prayed for him to come kick their ass again and this time he went mega and stomped them into the dirt. He also stopped a meteor while Mega". And that's about it. So the world is faced with a cataclysmic meteor that if not dealt with will literally kill everything, but hey, in the legends it says that Mega Ray stopped a meteor, so let's get Mega Ray again to stop this one too. She wouldnt know in reality Base Rayquaza is strong as the thing literally causing the meteor, she doesnt know what a ******* Deoxys is, how it relates to Rayquaza and so on. All she knows is big meteor is coming and Ray while Mega can stop such a thing. You're acting like she's omniscient, when if anything, Zinnia is kinda ******* stupid and knows **** all about how to go about doing things properly, there's a reason why Rayquaza crippled her ass.
Downscaling is a thing which you seem to be adamant on either ignoring or just forgetting. And considering the method we're going with makes Deoxys's meteor exceptionally high into 5-B, that helps my case even more. That combined with those 2 being handicapped.
Downscaling is a thing we do, of course, but you're arguing neither base Rayquaza who is stronger then the Primals, or the Primals together, could stop the meteor. Meaning, no, we don't downscale here, because there's nothing to downscale off of. If none of them could stop the meteor then why in the **** would we downscale them off the thing you're saying they can't stop (and I quote you, "Not even a slither of hope") of stopping it? We don't downscale off a thing that they have absolutely no hope of stopping. Handicapped is headcanon.
I dont care about Base Ray being superior to the primals. I never denied that and I agree he is. What I do deny is that he is insanely superior to them to the point where its stomp worthy, as absolutely nothing shows that and contradicts it more than anything else.
So you agree he's above them? Then what the **** are you even arguing? I'm not even saying he's insanely above them, what I'm saying is that Base Rayquaza is equal to the meteor due to being equal to Deoxys, the Primals are half the meteor as it'd take both of them together at minimum to stop it. rayquaza scales in full, and Primals get half the result, which is completely irrelevant to however the **** they scale to each other because they both have their own reasoning as to how they scale to the meteor, but even then, all this means is that Base Ray is 2x the Primals, which also adds up with him being able to beat both of them at the same time simultaneously.
What in the actual **** are you arguing here Kukui? It looks to me you're arguing things that was never actually said.
You seem to not understand how high into 5-B the meteor is, which is what seems to be accepted here. So yes theres an "in-between" because of high how into 5-B it is. Anything less than 897.53 Zettatons would fail against the meteor. Doesnt mean lower levels of 5-B dont exist.
I understand how high into 5-B it is, and it's for that very reason why I said Mega Ray should be 5-A. But, you continuously saying the primals and base ray cant stop the matter, without any hope of doing so, means there's no backscaling, because you cant backscale off a thing that you cant do anything about at all whatsoever, which is unironically what you said by saying not even Base Ray, who you agree is above the Primals, would fail to do without any hope of succeeding. We wouldnt backscale a human off a nuclear bomb now would we? It doesn't matter how high into a tier the bomb is, if the human cant do shit to stop it, they dont scale whatsoever especially when the only hope they had of scaling is shot down by not even being able to stop the bomb with help of another human or by the superhuman that beat both of them not being able to stop it. No, what we'd do is scale them to their own feats instead if they can't stop the bomb/meteor whatsoever. Of course, I dont agree with that, I think they could stop the meteor, while working together, they could stop the meteor, though as it was together, they'd only get half the result, which is about 440 zettatons of tnt, which is, still 5-B fyi, just half the result.
Nice job in naming a bunch of things that I made absolutely no mention of for the sake of increasing your good ol essay. But you do you.
Yes, I'm aware you made no mention of them, but you should have. Do you not realize that even though you just say one or two things, that those things you're talking about effect more than just one or two things? This shit aint in a vacuum. It effects a bunch of characters ad scaling. And if you have an issue with the length of my posts, tough luck, you're on a site to debate, I'm going to cover most ground that's relevant to the things you're insinuating.
Uh, we absolutely do do this on the wikia and Pokemon isnt the first, nor the last, to do this. Your highly underestimating how large of a tier 5-B is if you think theres no such thing as lower levels of 5-B power.
We do backscale, and Pokemon can backscale too. Unfortunately, you literally gone on record saying that neither the primals or base ray can stop the meteor, even saying that ray, who's stronger then them, has not a slither of hope to do so. So in this case, yeah, we wouldnt backscale off the thing you're trying to say they absolutely cant do a single thing about. I'm not underestimating shit, ignoring that 5-B isn't actually that large a tier compared to most. We do not, under any circumstance, backscale to an arbitrary made up value if the thing we're backscaling off is so far and beyond them they can't do a thing. I was arguing and even outright said they were 5-B, over 7x baseline even, but you're unironically arguing the opposite and your arguments would result in a High 6-A downgrade if taken seriously.
Don't care. My point did not change. Mega Ray is far far stronger than his base self, so just because mega ray can easily do something doesnt mean his base form has a chance to do it with extreme difficulty when next to everything goes against that.
Your point is bad and you didn't think this through at all.
Mega Ray is as strong as however the **** he's shown to be compared to his base form, which is a lot, yeah no shit, nobody said otherwise, which is why Mega Ray is scaling into the next tier based on his power alone and how he compares to his past self and everything involving it.
His base form has a chance of doing it because, now listen closely here, literally NOTHING says he couldn't do it base, you're assuming he can't, but it's never actually said he couldnt, Zinnia just went with the absolute safest route of action based on what she knew, of course, by itself this would mean **** all, but that isn't all of it. All that means is there's no contradiction to base being able to do it, the actual reasoning why he could do it is because he can single handily defeat two characters at the same time who together, can stop the meteor, and to top it off, Base Rayquaza is LITERALLY ABOVE the feat itself, Base Rayquaza is equal with Deoxys, they are shown time and time again to be able to fight each other on equal ground in base forms, with Rayquaza even being able to tank attack form psycho boosts quite well, an attack that's ******* stronger then the meteor. So yes, Base Rayquaza scales to the meteor in full, because he's as strong if not stronger then two characters who can stop the meteor when combined and is equal with the reason why the meteor happens in the first place, even going as far to walk off attacks STRONGER then the meteor. Everything goes against that? Only that implies otherwise is Zinnia's route of action and her doing things based off a old text saying mega ray stopped a meteor. The rest is you ignoring actual scaling and proof that says he could stop it. The alternative is to say the primals together couldnt stop it, base ray couldnt stop it, which also means Deoxys is weaker than his own meteor (meaning literally nobody is scaling to this feat at all except mega ray) and now every character scaling to 5-B or around there off this feat gets knocnked down to High 6-A.
Once again, see above about my point on backscaling. You have this idea that we dont backscale people to lower levels of a tier here when thats absolutely false on every single level and many many verses do this.
Yeah, when there's reason to do so. "Being completely hopeless to stop the feat in question and being completely unable to do a single thing", isn't reason to backscale, in fact it's a reason to avoid backscaling.
Failing against something 5-B doesnt auto mean you arent 5-B at all. Its entirely possible for you to be 5-B and at a lower extent of the tier. Hell, why do you think its possible for one 5-B to be stronger or weaker than another 5-B? Simple. Because backscaling is a thing here.
It does when all you've done is argued that nobody below mega ray could stop the meteor, they didnt have a single chance in hell, even base ray who is strong enough to beat both primals at once would be completely and utterly hopeless against doing anything to the meteor and so on. At that point, you're goddamn right we arent backscaling, there's literally no way at that point to eve scale them to the thing. Backscaling is what Mewtwo would be doing with Deoxys, he's weaker then Manga Deoxys, but he's not SO MUCH weaker he can't scale at all. But when you're arguing that a character who can single handily beat both characters at once is hopeless against the feat, then that character aint scaling let alone the two characters he can beat together.
I think the real question here is if you understand a thing about backscaling here. Because if you did, half of what you just said here in your college essay would be a waste of time.
I do understand, quite well, I have discussed at length with an admin in regards to scaling, backscaling and more in regards to a future CRT, I've also partaken i threads were backscaling is a actual issue that needs discussing, I know how we backscale and I know when backscaling comes into play. But you are unironically arguing that meteor>>>>Completely unquantifiable amount due to none of them being able to stop it whatsoever without even a slither of hope which makes it impossible to compare them to the meteor at all>>>>>>>Base Ray>Primals when together>Primal Alone.
In that situation, we scale them to their second best feats. Which is High 6-A, we also say Deoxys doesnt scale to the meteor at all because he's equal with Ray, who according to you had absolutely no hope in stopping it.
