Pokémon 5-B Downgrade (I'm really sorry)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Uh, im pretty sure thats the other way around, especially given we dont consider Mega Ray above Mega Mewtwo.

Rayquaza needed mega evolution to destroy Deoxys's meteor, while Mewtwo in base alone can contend with Deoxys. And his mega evolution parries attacks from Zygarde, someone Mega Ray never fought.

And on top of that, Rayquaza is only 4-B in the first place by being comparable to Mega Mewtwo. Not superior.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uh, im pretty sure thats the other way around, especially given we dont consider Mega Ray above Mega Mewtwo.

Rayquaza needed mega evolution to destroy Deoxys's meteor, while Mewtwo in base alone can contend with Deoxys. And his mega evolution parries attacks from Zygarde, someone Mega Ray never fought.

And on top of that, Rayquaza is only 4-B in the first place by being comparable to Mega Mewtwo. Not superior.

Fine I guess, edited the list

 

[Chariot190]

Uh, im pretty sure thats the other way around, especially given we dont consider Mega Ray above Mega Mewtwo.

Rayquaza needed mega evolution to destroy Deoxys's meteor, while Mewtwo in base alone can contend with Deoxys. And his mega evolution parries attacks from Zygarde, someone Mega Ray never fought.

It doesnt matter what we consider it to be, if it's wrong it's wrong and should be changed if that's the case.

Rayquaza didn't need Mega Evolution. As far as the manga is concerned, it's left ambiguous on if he absolutely needed mega or not. And given Base>Both Primals at once, and both Primals were in contention to stop the meteor together, it's safe to say Base could have done so if he's stronger then two things that could destroy the meteor together, the alternatiove is to say the Primals couldn't destroy the meteor and that'd call their 5-B rating into account, especially in the manga and games, and when in Mega he not only stopped the meteor, he literally vaporized it through raw kinetic energy which is a far cry above simple stopping.

Mewtwo in base can barely contend with Deoxys, the same Deoxys that did this feat was beating the shit out of mewtwo when they fought, Giovanni even goes on record to say Deoxys is the ultimate psychic type. What's that mean? It means mewtwo is weaker than this Deoxys, even if he's able to fight it albeit with lots of effort, and unlike Mega Ray, he doesn't actually have a good indication of the gap and his mega in relation to the meteor or deoxys or even mega ray.

Mega Mewtwo fought Zygarde, but you said it yourself, Zygarde never fought Mega Ray, bringing it up is a nonargument, it doesn't effect anything when Zygarde or Mewtwo doesn't scale to Mega Ray who can literally evaporate the meteor and one shot Deoxys and mewtwo is explicitly not as powerful as this Deoxys.

Not only that, even without Mega, Rayquaza has consistently fought Deoxys in its base form, he's done so in Destiny Deoxys and he's even done so as recent as the sun and moon anime. Rayquaza in base is consistently above the showings that Mewtwo has done against Deoxys (which mind you, is only a single fight he was losing for 90% of it).

And on top of that, Rayquaza is only 4-B in the first place by being comparable to Mega Mewtwo. Not superior.

Ok then we change it, simple as that. Rayquaza has better consistent showings against Deoxys in base, the only time Mewtwo fought Deoxys he was demonstrably weaker than it overall (to the point Attack Form Deoxys could borderline one shot with physical strikes), compared to Rayquaza's general equal showings with it. Ergo, Ray=Deoxys>Mewtwo.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Deleted the 5-B+ ratings making them 5-A, they'd be a mess and makes the Mega Evolution boost for legendaries clearer

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mewtwo in base can barely contend with Deoxys, the same Deoxys that did this feat was beating the shit out of mewtwo when they fought, Giovanni even goes on record to say Deoxys is the ultimate psychic type. What's that mean? It means mewtwo is weaker than this Deoxys, even if he's able to fight it albeit with lots of effort, and unlike Mega Ray, he doesn't actually have a good indication of the gap and his mega in relation to the meteor or deoxys or even mega ray.

Mewtwo could just survive against Psycho Boost too, that was barely "tanking"

 

[Chariot190]

Deleted the 5-B+ ratings making them 5-A, they'd be a mess and makes the Mega Evolution boost for legendaries clearer

Not really how it works, if we're using the 800 zettaton calc, the best we can do is say mega Ray, who has actual demonstrable evidence to suggest it against the very feat itself, is only possibly/likely 5-A unless we're given like an actual solid numerical multiplier on mega boosts for them.

Mewtwo could just survive against Psycho Boost too, that was barely "tanking"

Didn't that nearly kill him?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not really how it works, if we're using the 800 zettaton calc, the best we can do is say mega Ray, who has actual demonstrable evidence to suggest it against the very feat itself, is only possibly/likely 5-A unless we're given like an actual solid numerical multiplier on mega boosts for them.

Yeah, only Mega Ray is the exception, anyone else will be 5-B+ except Victini, and Kyurem's second and 3rd key which will be 5-A, and Sword Trio which will be "5-B+ to 5-A"

Didn't that nearly kill him?

Yep

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Making a collage sized essay against what I said isnt neccessary Chariot. Im simply going off of what the pages literally currently go with right now. If you disagree, make a CRT for it.

 

[Chariot190]

Skimmed through the fight, it was implied that an attack form psycho boost would literally kill him.
Also Attack Form could skewer him through the chest.
(Mind you, Ray in base has taken several attack form psycho boosts in succession before).

He seemed to be about, physically, around the power of base form deoxys. Though base form may have had the edge even then. Defense form he couldnt actually hurt at all.

 

[Chariot190]

Making a collage sized essay against what I said isnt neccessary Chariot. Im simply going off of what the pages literally currently go with right now. If you disagree, make a CRT for it.

This is the CRT for it. We're discussing their scaling and how they scale to the meteor feat. This is unironically the place to discuss how and why they scale.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Making a collage sized essay against what I said isnt neccessary Chariot. Im simply going off of what the pages literally currently go with right now. If you disagree, make a CRT for it.

This is basically a re-tier, so why not

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well according to Cal, both are only supposed to be considered equals so im going to wait for him to specify why here before agreeing with any scaling changes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's right, this is only about Rayquaza too, since no one would scale from his 5-A rating too due to no one fighting him except Deoxys and the Primals, who were all effortlessly stomped.

 

[Chariot190]

• Deoxys will have his calc changed, with a higher, in attack form.
• Base Rayquaza will scale to Deoxys in full. Consistently portrayed as being equal more or less, from the moment they debuted in the anime to even recently, even being able to tank multiple psycho boosts from attack form for Ray in base.
• Base Mewtwo, Mew and regular Genesect will have the new 5-B value too, albeit to a lesser degree, not by much though, as fortunately, Deoxys did this feat in normal form, which Mewtwo in the manga could contend with with some effort.
• Mega Mewtwo, Shiny Genesect, Base Kyurem and whoever scales from them will be At least 5-B+, possibly higher. (To compensate for the unknown but drastic mega boost increase).
• Mega Rayquaza will be 5-A (Reasoning above, Dragon Ascent can also completely nullify and destroy a attack form Psycho Boost with zero effort so add that onto the above).
• Victini will be 5-A
• Black/White Kyurem and the Original Dragon will be 5-A
• Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Latios and Latias will be 5-B, albeit half the feat, so 448.265 zettatons of TNT (Both Primals are an unquantifiable amount weaker than base fug, in the manga it was going to take both Primals on top of some training for them to deal with the meteor, so take the meteor and split the result between them).
• Cobalion, Terrakion and Virizion will get be "At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B+ to 5-A, possibly 4-B" rating
• Hoopa will be "At least High 6-A, likely 5-B+, possibly 4-B"

That's my views on this at least, though I could be a bit off.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

However, to comment on one thing here:

Rayquaza didn't need Mega Evolution. As far as the manga is concerned, it's left ambiguous on if he absolutely needed mega or not. And given Base>Both Primals at once, and both Primals were in contention to stop the meteor together, it's safe to say Base could have done so if he's stronger then two things that could destroy the meteor together,

Rayquaza in base is only stronger than the 2 by an unquantifiable amount, "safe to say" isnt an absolute certainty that he couldve. And Zinnia wouldnt have needed to go through so much effort to give Ray mega evolution if it wasnt needed to stop the meteor.

the alternatiove is to say the Primals couldn't destroy the meteor and that'd call their 5-B rating into account, especially in the manga and games,

Or Plan C: Groudon and Kyogre werent high enough into 5-B to destroy the meteor and thus, Base Ray being above them by an unquantified extent means he couldnt. Thus the need for mega evolution.

The meteor as calced is only 3x below 5-A. Meaning its pretty high into 5-B territory and leaves a lot of room for any lower amounts of 5-B power to fail against it.

and when in Mega he not only stopped the meteor, he literally vaporized it through raw kinetic energy which is a far cry above simple stopping.

Doesnt matter. The difference between mega and base is quite big. Just because Mega Ray stopped it by whatever amount of ease you want to slap onto this does not mean it gives Base Ray a slither of hope of stopping it solo.

 

[Chariot190]

Rayquaza in base is only stronger than the 2 by an unquantifiable amount, "safe to say" isnt an absolute certainty that he couldve. And Zinnia wouldnt have needed to go through so much effort to give Ray mega evolution if it wasnt needed to stop the meteor.

Ok so then the Primals aren't 5-B then. It is quite literally stated, point blank, that in base, Rayquaza can completely overwhelm both Primals simultaneously (overwhelm being defined by completely and utterly defeating or by an overwhelming, a great/large, amount) If the Primals together can stop the meteor than in base Rayquaza can stop the meteor, if Rayquaza cant stop it in base, then neither can the Primals and they lose their 5-B rating and go to High 6-A based off their own feats. Hell in the manga it's also shown base Rayquaza is stronger then the Primals too, the same manga this feat happens in. Ever consider Zinnia just wanted to be certain? This aint DBZ, she only knows his power based on some legends and that's about it.

Or Plan C: Groudon and Kyogre werent high enough into 5-B to destroy the meteor and thus, Base Ray being above them by an unquantified extent means he couldnt. Thus the need for mega evolution.

Ok so they aren't 5-B then, because it's either they scale off the meteor, or they don't and are only High 6-A. Because Base Ray=Deoxys, who is = the feat. If we go your route of them not being able to stop the meteor, we would unironically now how big the gap between the Primals and Base Ray is, because if them together cant stop it, and Base Ray is equal with the thing that caused the feat they couldnt stop together, that would mean Base Ray>>>The Primals, and any hope of scaling them to ray becomes moot.

The meteor as calced is only 3x below 5-A. Meaning its pretty high into 5-B territory and leaves a lot of room for any lower amounts of 5-B power to fail against it.

No it doesnt, at all. Because they either scale to it when working together, or they dont at all. There is no arbitrary inbetween, that's the only feat that puts them at that level and if you'e arguing they arent enough to stop it, then we now know how big the gap between them and base is, because base Rayquaza sure as **** is strong enough to fight Base Form Deoxys who did this feat, unless you want to argue Base Form Deoxys is stronger than base Ray? In which case literally nobody is scaling to the full result other then Deoxys himself. Or, the alternative is, this feat doesnt even scale to Deoxys because if Base Ray isnt at least equal with the meteor, but he's equal with Deoxys, then there's a very blatant issue here and it would mean Deoxys itself doesnt even scale to the feat in full. Though given you've argued not even base Rayquaza could stop it, and that the Primals together couldnt stop it, that just means none of them get 5-B and only Mega Ray would get 5-B. There is no completely arbitrary backscaling to a lower level of 5-B off something none of them could stop according to you. We quite literally do not do that on this wiki, it's complete conjecture based on some arbitrary made up value.

Doesnt matter. The difference between mega and base is quite big. Just because Mega Ray stopped it by whatever amount of ease you want to slap onto this does not mean it gives Base Ray a slither of hope of stopping it solo.

It matters, greatly, I don't know what's up with you and not understanding basic things like this, but it matters, enough to where the whole scaling chain relies on it just about. I'm not slapping or exaggerating the ease of which he did it, he quite literally evaporated the meteor, that's literally the word used, evaporating it.
He can stop it solo because he scales to the thing that caused it while in base, upscales overwhelmingly up above two things that could allegedly stop it together.
I hope to God you realize you're arguing for a downgrade here because you're arguing that the primals couldnt stop it together, the gap between base ray and the primals likely isnt that big and so base rayquaza couldnt stop it (Meaning according to you, base rayquaza and the primals couldnt stop it, either of them, meaning they sure as **** cant scale to 5-B or this feat of none of the three can stop it, meaning the primals and Base Rayquaza get knocked down to High 6-A at best due to the lack of feats anywhere close to 5-B other then this), deoxys who is equal with base rayquaza among basically all media is equal with the dude who cant stop this feat in base meaning not even deoxys scales to the meteor, and so on and so forth. Do you think what you're saying through before typing it out? Because it seems to me you're arguing for some sort of higher scaling without realizing the shit you're saying would result in the complete opposite.

 

[Ionliosite]

I personally think Chariot's proposal makes more sense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I definitely agree 100% with Chariot too, Primals are 5-B due to them being one-shotted without effort from even normal Deoxys be dumb af in scaling

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ok so then the Primals aren't 5-B then. It is quite literally stated, point blank, that in base, Rayquaza can completely overwhelm both Primals simultaneously (overwhelm being defined by completely and utterly defeating or by an overwhelming, a great/large, amount) If the Primals together can stop the meteor than in base Rayquaza can stop the meteor, if Rayquaza cant stop it in base, then neither can the Primals and they lose their 5-B rating and go to High 6-A based off their own feats.

Yeah no. "Overwhelm" is a very vague way of saying that, simply so, Rayquaza is superior to them by any given amount. Whats actually shown >>>> A defintion and from actual showings, absolutely nothing says Base Ray can stomp them. Hell, the only time we actually see the Primals take Ray on is in the anime, which of all things, goes further against your idea that base is that much above them when Mega Ray couldnt beat them with anything less than its signature move.

Not to mention, your also ignoring the fact that Groudon and Kyogre were handicapped against the meteor via Archie and Maxie's death weakening them. And that weakened them due to them being connected to the primals via the red/blue orbs.

Hell in the manga it's also shown base Rayquaza is stronger then the Primals too, the same manga this feat happens in.

Okay? I never denied that. Im denying that Base Rayquaza can stomp them. Pay attention.

Ever consider Zinnia just wanted to be certain? This aint DBZ, she only knows his power based on some legends and that's about it.

The same legends that her and her people stand by 100%? Not only that, the world is facing a life or death crisis. Zinnia wouldnt be stupid enough to waste her entire time to help Rayquaza achieve a form to stop said threat if he didnt actually need it.

Ok so they aren't 5-B then, because it's either they scale off the meteor, or they don't and are only High 6-A. Because Base Ray=Deoxys, who is = the feat. If we go your route of them not being able to stop the meteor, we would unironically now how big the gap between the Primals and Base Ray is, because if them together cant stop it, and Base Ray is equal with the thing that caused the feat they couldnt stop together, that would mean Base Ray>>>The Primals, and any hope of scaling them to ray becomes moot.

Downscaling is a thing which you seem to be adamant on either ignoring or just forgetting. And considering the method we're going with makes Deoxys's meteor exceptionally high into 5-B, that helps my case even more. That combined with those 2 being handicapped.

I dont care about Base Ray being superior to the primals. I never denied that and I agree he is. What I do deny is that he is insanely superior to them to the point where its stomp worthy, as absolutely nothing shows that and contradicts it more than anything else.

No it doesnt, at all. Because they either scale to it when working together, or they dont at all. There is no arbitrary inbetween,

You seem to not understand how high into 5-B the meteor is, which is what seems to be accepted here. So yes theres an "in-between" because of high how into 5-B it is. Anything less than 897.53 Zettatons would fail against the meteor. Doesnt mean lower levels of 5-B dont exist.

that's the only feat that puts them at that level and if you'e arguing they arent enough to stop it, then we now know how big the gap between them and base is, because base Rayquaza sure as **** is strong enough to fight Base Form Deoxys who did this feat, unless you want to argue Base Form Deoxys is stronger than base Ray? In which case literally nobody is scaling to the full result other then Deoxys himself. Or, the alternative is, this feat doesnt even scale to Deoxys because if Base Ray isnt at least equal with the meteor, but he's equal with Deoxys, then there's a very blatant issue here and it would mean Deoxys itself doesnt even scale to the feat in full.

Nice job in naming a bunch of things that I made absolutely no mention of for the sake of increasing your good ol essay. But you do you.

There is no completely arbitrary backscaling to a lower level of 5-B off something none of them could stop according to you. We quite literally do not do that on this wiki, it's complete conjecture based on some arbitrary made up value.

Uh, we absolutely do do this on the wikia and Pokemon isnt the first, nor the last, to do this. Your highly underestimating how large of a tier 5-B is if you think theres no such thing as lower levels of 5-B power.

It matters, greatly, I don't know what's up with you and not understanding basic things like this, but it matters, enough to where the whole scaling chain relies on it just about. I'm not slapping or exaggerating the ease of which he did it, he quite literally evaporated the meteor, that's literally the word used, evaporating it.

Don't care. My point did not change. Mega Ray is far far stronger than his base self, so just because mega ray can easily do something doesnt mean his base form has a chance to do it with extreme difficulty when next to everything goes against that.

I hope to God you realize you're arguing for a downgrade here because you're arguing that the primals couldnt stop it together, the gap between base ray and the primals likely isnt that big and so base rayquaza couldnt stop it (Meaning according to you, base rayquaza and the primals couldnt stop it, either of them, meaning they sure as **** cant scale to 5-B or this feat of none of the three can stop it

Once again, see above about my point on backscaling. You have this idea that we dont backscale people to lower levels of a tier here when thats absolutely false on every single level and many many verses do this.

Failing against something 5-B doesnt auto mean you arent 5-B at all. Its entirely possible for you to be 5-B and at a lower extent of the tier. Hell, why do you think its possible for one 5-B to be stronger or weaker than another 5-B? Simple. Because backscaling is a thing here.

Do you think what you're saying through before typing it out? Because it seems to me you're arguing for some sort of higher scaling without realizing the shit you're saying would result in the complete opposite.

I think the real question here is if you understand a thing about backscaling here. Because if you did, half of what you just said here in your college essay would be a waste of time.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Unrelated to the thread by I actually find the movie "Clash of ages" to be more PiS ridden than "Jewel of life", a few examples include;

*Hoopa stomps two members of the tao trio and Regigigas.

*Hoopa's malice gets beaten around by Lugia and has to resort to BFR.

*Hoopa's malice is able to summon as well as control the CT.

As much as I want Hoopa (unbound key) to be solidly tier 5, I feel like the Djinn is the most inconsistent mythical/legendary to scale (all thanks to his own debut movie).

Tangent aside, I more or less agree with Chariot's proposals (just a few details that need to be ironed out).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Unrelated to the thread by I actually find the movie "Clash of ages" to be more PiS ridden than "Jewel of life", a few examples include;

*Hoopa stomps two members of the tao trio and Regigigas.

*Hoopa's malice gets beaten around by Lugia and has to resort to BFR.

Im just going to make a small correction here since I had a feeling this would be brought up.

The Hoopa that Lugia "beaten" was Shadow Hoopa. Hoopa at that point had his power split between Confined and Unbound, which created some kind of false hoopa in the process. Which of course means Hoopa for half of the movie wasnt actually using his true true levels of strength. The only time it does was in the beginning of the movie when stomping Regigigas, Reshi and Zek.

Adding to that, Shadow Hoopa had no control of his power either and was running amok. As such, Lugia beating it should be whats the outlier instead of it being one for Hoopa.

*Hoopa's malice is able to summon as well as control the CT.

This isnt AP, just mind haxing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just giving a heads up, but at this point, I dont have the patience nor drive to continue discussing this any longer. Im getting a headache from this and due to the constant back and forth between me and chariot (who, while being honest here, isnt my biggest fan), I dont have confidence in myself to continue this topic without straight up yelling or saying something that i'll regret later (which I obviously dont want to happen). So im leaving this thread and letting everyone else finish this up, regardless of what gets upgraded, downgraded, or anything in between.

And I wanted to be honest while saying this because I do genuinely feel bad about any issues I might have caused this discussion, what amount of hinderance I might have been and I am extremely sorry about that.

Good luck. Plz dont mssg me to ask to discuss this again.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah no. "Overwhelm" is a very vague way of saying that, simply so, Rayquaza is superior to them by any given amount. Whats actually shown >>>> A defintion and from actual showings, absolutely nothing says Base Ray can stomp them. Hell, the only time we actually see the Primals take Ray on is in the anime, which of all things, goes further against your idea that base is that much above them when Mega Ray couldnt beat them with anything less than its signature move.

Overwhelm is the literal word used. "Rayquaza's power overwhelmed that of the two Primal Pokemon". Base Rayquaza is quite literally, in base, strong enough to overwhelm the two Primals, simultaneously, to such an extent, he didn't just beat them, he overwhelmed them. Basic english skills here.
What's actually shown? We're shown that Base Rayquaza is able to shrugg off things that can knock the primals on their ass so we're shown he's superior too, we're also shown he can fight on par with Deoxys, something that it would take the two of them together to contend with. In the anime Mega Ray one shot them with Dragon Ascent, and in the manga, which, hey, is where the feat and scaling comes from, Base Rayquaza walks off something that put both Primals on their ass out cold. So we have Mega Rayquaza one shotting both Primals with Dragon Ascent in the anime, the games explicitly saying that Base Rayquaza is more than enough to single handily beat both Primals, and in the manga it being quite clear that and even shown that the Primals are at least half of Deoxys' feat, which is something base Rayquaza scales to in full by virtue of being as powerful as Deoxys in base.

Not to mention, your also ignoring the fact that Groudon and Kyogre were handicapped against the meteor via Archie and Maxie's death weakening them. And that weakened them due to them being connected to the primals via the red/blue orbs.

Blatantly false, we've actually gone through this before so cut the that shit out, I'm not about to repeat myself again. Archie's and Maxie's death weakening them is completely hyperbole, it's something you outright made up, it's never said anywhere at all. And to add onto that, Archie and Maxie died, because they were exhausting to much energy while training. And even after they were dead, the Primals remained in their Primal forms, untill they were knocked out, by something base Rayquaza could walk off, because he literally does. I'm not here to argue your headcanon, you're taking something and extrapolating it beyond belief here to suit your argument, when in reality, if what you were saying is true, well for starters, they'd have lost primal reversion right away, instead of staying in it till getting struck, not only that, the Primals were never stated to be handicapped, and if they were, it would have happened after everything that matters.

Okay? I never denied that. Im denying that Base Rayquaza can stomp them. Pay attention.

Yet you're arguing that by arguing the primals couldnt stop the meteor even together, when base rayquaza scales to the meteor feat in full. Do you even proof read the shit you're saying? Because half the things you say go against what you actually want. ****, I hope you realize I'm only saying Base Rayquaza is only 2x the Primals alone right? Which, I'm pretty sure is the absolute minimum he can even be in regards to them.

The same legends that her and her people stand by 100%? Not only that, the world is facing a life or death crisis. Zinnia wouldnt be stupid enough to waste her entire time to help Rayquaza achieve a form to stop said threat if he didnt actually need it.

Yes, the legends that say "Rayquaza in base defeated both primals single handily, later on we prayed for him to come kick their ass again and this time he went mega and stomped them into the dirt. He also stopped a meteor while Mega". And that's about it. So the world is faced with a cataclysmic meteor that if not dealt with will literally kill everything, but hey, in the legends it says that Mega Ray stopped a meteor, so let's get Mega Ray again to stop this one too. She wouldnt know in reality Base Rayquaza is strong as the thing literally causing the meteor, she doesnt know what a ******* Deoxys is, how it relates to Rayquaza and so on. All she knows is big meteor is coming and Ray while Mega can stop such a thing. You're acting like she's omniscient, when if anything, Zinnia is kinda ******* stupid and knows **** all about how to go about doing things properly, there's a reason why Rayquaza crippled her ass.

Downscaling is a thing which you seem to be adamant on either ignoring or just forgetting. And considering the method we're going with makes Deoxys's meteor exceptionally high into 5-B, that helps my case even more. That combined with those 2 being handicapped.

Downscaling is a thing we do, of course, but you're arguing neither base Rayquaza who is stronger then the Primals, or the Primals together, could stop the meteor. Meaning, no, we don't downscale here, because there's nothing to downscale off of. If none of them could stop the meteor then why in the **** would we downscale them off the thing you're saying they can't stop (and I quote you, "Not even a slither of hope") of stopping it? We don't downscale off a thing that they have absolutely no hope of stopping. Handicapped is headcanon.

I dont care about Base Ray being superior to the primals. I never denied that and I agree he is. What I do deny is that he is insanely superior to them to the point where its stomp worthy, as absolutely nothing shows that and contradicts it more than anything else.

So you agree he's above them? Then what the **** are you even arguing? I'm not even saying he's insanely above them, what I'm saying is that Base Rayquaza is equal to the meteor due to being equal to Deoxys, the Primals are half the meteor as it'd take both of them together at minimum to stop it. rayquaza scales in full, and Primals get half the result, which is completely irrelevant to however the **** they scale to each other because they both have their own reasoning as to how they scale to the meteor, but even then, all this means is that Base Ray is 2x the Primals, which also adds up with him being able to beat both of them at the same time simultaneously.
What in the actual **** are you arguing here Kukui? It looks to me you're arguing things that was never actually said.

You seem to not understand how high into 5-B the meteor is, which is what seems to be accepted here. So yes theres an "in-between" because of high how into 5-B it is. Anything less than 897.53 Zettatons would fail against the meteor. Doesnt mean lower levels of 5-B dont exist.

I understand how high into 5-B it is, and it's for that very reason why I said Mega Ray should be 5-A. But, you continuously saying the primals and base ray cant stop the matter, without any hope of doing so, means there's no backscaling, because you cant backscale off a thing that you cant do anything about at all whatsoever, which is unironically what you said by saying not even Base Ray, who you agree is above the Primals, would fail to do without any hope of succeeding. We wouldnt backscale a human off a nuclear bomb now would we? It doesn't matter how high into a tier the bomb is, if the human cant do shit to stop it, they dont scale whatsoever especially when the only hope they had of scaling is shot down by not even being able to stop the bomb with help of another human or by the superhuman that beat both of them not being able to stop it. No, what we'd do is scale them to their own feats instead if they can't stop the bomb/meteor whatsoever. Of course, I dont agree with that, I think they could stop the meteor, while working together, they could stop the meteor, though as it was together, they'd only get half the result, which is about 440 zettatons of tnt, which is, still 5-B fyi, just half the result.

Nice job in naming a bunch of things that I made absolutely no mention of for the sake of increasing your good ol essay. But you do you.

Yes, I'm aware you made no mention of them, but you should have. Do you not realize that even though you just say one or two things, that those things you're talking about effect more than just one or two things? This shit aint in a vacuum. It effects a bunch of characters ad scaling. And if you have an issue with the length of my posts, tough luck, you're on a site to debate, I'm going to cover most ground that's relevant to the things you're insinuating.

Uh, we absolutely do do this on the wikia and Pokemon isnt the first, nor the last, to do this. Your highly underestimating how large of a tier 5-B is if you think theres no such thing as lower levels of 5-B power.

We do backscale, and Pokemon can backscale too. Unfortunately, you literally gone on record saying that neither the primals or base ray can stop the meteor, even saying that ray, who's stronger then them, has not a slither of hope to do so. So in this case, yeah, we wouldnt backscale off the thing you're trying to say they absolutely cant do a single thing about. I'm not underestimating shit, ignoring that 5-B isn't actually that large a tier compared to most. We do not, under any circumstance, backscale to an arbitrary made up value if the thing we're backscaling off is so far and beyond them they can't do a thing. I was arguing and even outright said they were 5-B, over 7x baseline even, but you're unironically arguing the opposite and your arguments would result in a High 6-A downgrade if taken seriously.

Don't care. My point did not change. Mega Ray is far far stronger than his base self, so just because mega ray can easily do something doesnt mean his base form has a chance to do it with extreme difficulty when next to everything goes against that.

Your point is bad and you didn't think this through at all.
Mega Ray is as strong as however the **** he's shown to be compared to his base form, which is a lot, yeah no shit, nobody said otherwise, which is why Mega Ray is scaling into the next tier based on his power alone and how he compares to his past self and everything involving it.
His base form has a chance of doing it because, now listen closely here, literally NOTHING says he couldn't do it base, you're assuming he can't, but it's never actually said he couldnt, Zinnia just went with the absolute safest route of action based on what she knew, of course, by itself this would mean **** all, but that isn't all of it. All that means is there's no contradiction to base being able to do it, the actual reasoning why he could do it is because he can single handily defeat two characters at the same time who together, can stop the meteor, and to top it off, Base Rayquaza is LITERALLY ABOVE the feat itself, Base Rayquaza is equal with Deoxys, they are shown time and time again to be able to fight each other on equal ground in base forms, with Rayquaza even being able to tank attack form psycho boosts quite well, an attack that's ******* stronger then the meteor. So yes, Base Rayquaza scales to the meteor in full, because he's as strong if not stronger then two characters who can stop the meteor when combined and is equal with the reason why the meteor happens in the first place, even going as far to walk off attacks STRONGER then the meteor. Everything goes against that? Only that implies otherwise is Zinnia's route of action and her doing things based off a old text saying mega ray stopped a meteor. The rest is you ignoring actual scaling and proof that says he could stop it. The alternative is to say the primals together couldnt stop it, base ray couldnt stop it, which also means Deoxys is weaker than his own meteor (meaning literally nobody is scaling to this feat at all except mega ray) and now every character scaling to 5-B or around there off this feat gets knocnked down to High 6-A.

Once again, see above about my point on backscaling. You have this idea that we dont backscale people to lower levels of a tier here when thats absolutely false on every single level and many many verses do this.

Yeah, when there's reason to do so. "Being completely hopeless to stop the feat in question and being completely unable to do a single thing", isn't reason to backscale, in fact it's a reason to avoid backscaling.

Failing against something 5-B doesnt auto mean you arent 5-B at all. Its entirely possible for you to be 5-B and at a lower extent of the tier. Hell, why do you think its possible for one 5-B to be stronger or weaker than another 5-B? Simple. Because backscaling is a thing here.

It does when all you've done is argued that nobody below mega ray could stop the meteor, they didnt have a single chance in hell, even base ray who is strong enough to beat both primals at once would be completely and utterly hopeless against doing anything to the meteor and so on. At that point, you're goddamn right we arent backscaling, there's literally no way at that point to eve scale them to the thing. Backscaling is what Mewtwo would be doing with Deoxys, he's weaker then Manga Deoxys, but he's not SO MUCH weaker he can't scale at all. But when you're arguing that a character who can single handily beat both characters at once is hopeless against the feat, then that character aint scaling let alone the two characters he can beat together.

I think the real question here is if you understand a thing about backscaling here. Because if you did, half of what you just said here in your college essay would be a waste of time.

I do understand, quite well, I have discussed at length with an admin in regards to scaling, backscaling and more in regards to a future CRT, I've also partaken i threads were backscaling is a actual issue that needs discussing, I know how we backscale and I know when backscaling comes into play. But you are unironically arguing that meteor>>>>Completely unquantifiable amount due to none of them being able to stop it whatsoever without even a slither of hope which makes it impossible to compare them to the meteor at all>>>>>>>Base Ray>Primals when together>Primal Alone.
In that situation, we scale them to their second best feats. Which is High 6-A, we also say Deoxys doesnt scale to the meteor at all because he's equal with Ray, who according to you had absolutely no hope in stopping it.

 

[Chariot190]

regardless of what gets upgraded, downgraded, or anything in between.

Literally NOBODY is getting downgraded Kukui, Quite literally everybody is getting upgraded to an extent, even the Primals.
Nobody is dropping below 5-B, which is where I'm pretty sure you misinterpreted at some point, they'd only drop below 5-B if we went the route the primals couldnt stop the meteor at all, which is sus as **** when it was heavily implied that with their best moves, together, they had a good chance of doing something about it.
The Primals would be 440+ zettatons, Planet Level is 57 zettatons, they're still 5-B dude.
And in regards to scaling, the Primals together are only a little bit less than Base Rayquaza, and by themselves, are about half his power.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Base to base, Ray, Deo, and M2 are approximately equals.

 

[Chariot190]

Base to base, Ray, Deo, and M2 are approximately equals.

Eh, I'd say comparable. But not equals.
Base Rayquaza is demonstrably stronger then Base Form Deoxys, and can tank numerous attacks from Attack form Deoxys, including Psycho Boosts.

Mewtwo is seemingly equal more or less with base form Deoxys, maybe a tad bit weaker (Giovanni does say he's above Mewtwo), but it'd be a negligible amount to the point it probably doesn't matter, based on his showings against Deoxys in his fight with it.
Attack form Deoxys though can borderline one shot Mewtwo, outright impaling it with his physical strikes, heavily beating him down with whips, psycho boost crippling him with it being implied that two psycho boosts in attack form would be lethal, something that it can't do to Rayquaza, who has taken attack form psycho boosts and continued to fight on top of numerous attack form strikes and rams.

As such.

While all more or less able to contend with each other to some degree, I'd say, Base Rayquaza>?Base Form Deoxys=?Mewtwo.
Given Attack form could one shot Mewtwo but those same attacks and strikes are a thing Rayquaza can tank multiple of in succession.

 

[Chariot190]

Deoxys. 896.53 zettatons, higher in Attack form obviously.
Planet level, higher in Attack Form ([PMD feat here]. Telekinetically controlled a meteor that was capable of [calc link here]. consistently portrayed as comparable to Rayquaza. Nearly killed Mewtwo while in Attack Form [scans here]).

Base Rayquaza. A bit above 896.53 zettatons. Obviously stronger than Base Deoxys going by showings, but he's also a bit weaker than Attack Form. Though the difference isn't much. He's just a tiny bit above the feat as Deoxys did it while in base, not attack, which as mentioned above, Ray can contend with to an extent. Also stronger then both Primals, who together can likely stop it.
AP: Planet level (Consistently portrayed as comparable to Deoxys, who controlled Grand Delta. Overwhelmed and defeated both Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre simultaneously, who together could likely stop Grand Delta).
Durability: Planet level (Can take attacks from Deoxys, including multiple Psycho Boosts from its Attack Form and continue fighting).

Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre. 448.265 zettatons. They're not strong enough to beat Ray while together, but they could still seemingly fight him for awhile before getting put into the ground. Together they likely could have stopped the meteor, ergo they both get half the result of the meteor due to it being a shared feat. Either way, both together being not quite as strong as Ray and together being able to stop the meteor both end up with around 1/2th of the feat.
AP: Planet level (Weaker than but still capable of fighting Rayquaza. Together with [other primal here] was heavily implied to be capable of stopping Grand Delta).

Mewtwo. Idk, a bit less then 896.53 zettatons. Not by much though, likely negligible.

Scaling would look like this.

Mega Ray>>?>>Deoxys Attack=>Ray>=Deoxys Base/Grand Delta=Mewtwo=?Primals>Primal.

Excluding Mewtwo.

Mega Ray>>?>>Deoxys Attack=>Ray>=Deoxys Base/Grand Delta=?Primals>Primal.

This look ok for those legends?

 

[Antvasima]

Since 896.53 Zettatons likely got definitely accepted

That is not the case. See here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/deoxys-meteor-discussion-pt-2.110238/post-3461455

 

[StrymULTRA]

That is not the case. See here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/deoxys-meteor-discussion-pt-2.110238/post-3461455

As I said in the thread now, made the blog and it got accepted even there

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agreed 100% with Chariot.

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Deoxys will have his calc changed, with a higher, in attack form.
• Base Rayquaza will scale to Deoxys in full. Consistently portrayed as being equal more or less, from the moment they debuted in the anime to even recently, even being able to tank multiple psycho boosts from attack form for Ray in base.
• Base Mewtwo, Mew and regular Genesect will have the new 5-B value too, albeit to a lesser degree, not by much though, as fortunately, Deoxys did this feat in normal form, which Mewtwo in the manga could contend with with some effort.
• Mega Mewtwo, Shiny Genesect, Base Kyurem and whoever scales from them will be At least 5-B+, possibly higher. (To compensate for the unknown but drastic mega boost increase).
• Mega Rayquaza will be 5-A (Reasoning above, Dragon Ascent can also completely nullify and destroy a attack form Psycho Boost with zero effort so add that onto the above).
• Victini will be 5-A
• Black/White Kyurem and the Original Dragon will be 5-A
• Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Latios and Latias will be 5-B, albeit half the feat, so 448.265 zettatons of TNT (Both Primals are an unquantifiable amount weaker than base fug, in the manga it was going to take both Primals on top of some training for them to deal with the meteor, so take the meteor and split the result between them).
• Cobalion, Terrakion and Virizion will get be "At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B+ to 5-A, possibly 4-B" rating
• Hoopa will be "At least High 6-A, likely 5-B+, possibly 4-B"

That's my views on this at least, though I could be a bit off.

Forgot Keldeo, who'll be 5-A too

Also I'd remove the 5-A from Cobalion, Virizion and Terrakion, since they got defeated from Black/White Kyurem, so they scale from just base one

 

[Chariot190]

Also I'd remove the 5-A from Cobalion, Virizion and Terrakion, since they got defeated from Black/White Kyurem, so they scale from just base one

Fair enough.

 

[Antvasima]

As I said in the thread now, made the blog and it got accepted even there

Given that several calc group members have commented in the past, we need some more confirmations, so I ask Damage3245 and Ugarik to comment there as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Given that several calc group members have commented in the past, we need some more confirmations, so I ask Damage3245 and Ugarik to comment there as well.

Damage accepted too

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but he needs to specify which result that he prefers as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thank you, but he needs to specify which result that he prefers as well.

Didn't he say that even the 5 seconds end has acceptable math after making questions on said end?

EDIT: He confirmed it again

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now that I think, we should remove the scaling from Mega Rayquaza from Reshiram, Zekrom and Keldeo profiles too, since is completely unbased and it was already estabilished that Rayquaza > Mewtwo, and no one scales from the former, but just the latter

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Rayquaza is > Mewtwo but it’s a negligible amount. Former isn’t one shotting the latter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Rayquaza is > Mewtwo but it’s a negligible amount. Former isn’t one shotting the latter.

We never stated such tho

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My b then