Pokémon 5-B Downgrade (I'm really sorry)

[StrymULTRA]

Deoxys meteor calc was being rejected, and was calculated at High 6-A at best, and since even Mystery Dungeon isn't used anymore, then the conditions are these

• Deoxys, Base Mewtwo, Base Rayquaza and Mew will be Baseline 5-B due of the meteor still be at very least 5-B because of the whole Delta Episode context
• Kyurem in its Black/White and Original Key will just be 5-B, likely 4-B
• Primal Groudon and Kyogre will be Low 5-B+
• Mega Latios/Latias will be "Likely Low 5-B"
• Xerneas won't have its calc as justification anymore, but just the scaling from 50% Zygarde

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't we simply use the old calculation to scale from if your new one has been rejected?

Also, is there even an accepted calculation blog as a basic for what you suggest?

Anyway:

@RadicalMrR @Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @WeeklyBattles @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't we simply use the old calculation to scale from if your new one has been rejected?

The feat in general was declaired unquantifiable to calc

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, if the feat in general has been uncalcable, I agree with this.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yet another Pokémon CRT breaking the ONE CRT per verse rule this is getting ridiculous!

 

[Ionliosite]

Nasuverse and its 3 ongoing CRTs flex in the background

 

[LordTracer]

Laughs in Marvel also having three CRTs right now

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

3 is rookie numbers Pokémon currently has 5 on going last time I checked.

Jokes aside, a moderate nerf to AP while still remaining in the same tier is pretty inconsequential all things considered. I feel like this should be done and sorted in no time.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Sorry, but if I may ask, why the Tao Trio has a 4-B rating?

 

[Bobsican]

Via scaling to Genesect, which scales to Mewtwo, which scales to Zygarde, which scales to Necrozma.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah pretty much that. Tao Trio scales above Shiny Genesect who is comparable to Mega Mewtwo who downscales from 50% Zygarde who downscales from Ultra Necrozma.

 

[Antvasima]

So if we are throwing out the calculations, what are the reasons for the statistics suggested above?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Prefer more input form more familiar staff, but looks fine. But might be a good idea to link old calculations.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So if we are throwing out the calculations, what are the reasons for the statistics suggested above?

Deoxys meteor is still 5-B due to ORAS games context behind it, so they all should still scale from it

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

What's the context behind it being 5-B?

 

[M3X_2.0]

It is very convenient to use the game information (for Deoxys's feat) now that the calculation no longer has the previous Tier (5-B). Answer me: Do you want to make this as accurate as possible, or just accept something at least Planet level? It seems that the later is what is happening.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll not even discuss what is canon or not, it's irrelevant, Pokémon is a mess. It's just why using now the game for this feat, and not the manga anymore. What is the reason?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because

• Kyogre was already about to destroy the planet (even if overtime) and it can't reffer to just the surface because the ones which were about the surface are the base forms, so about the Primals they have to destroy the planet in its entirely
• Rayquaza was stated more times to be the only one who can oppose the meteor's destruction without destroying the Earth of another timeline
• Groudon and Kyogre toghether and both in the Primal forms were described as a threat comparable to the meteor, since even there only Rayquaza was the only one who was able to stop them, making the power of Primal form Groudon and Kyogre combined 5-B
• The meteor was alreday told to come due to precognition, and the effects are greater than any thread came before and will completely destroy the planet, breaking it forever, and this needs overcoming the GBE at very minimum
• Zinnia implied again that Rayquaza is the only one who can save the world and that is the protector of Hoenn, confirming it above Primal Groudon and Kyogre again
• Zinnia again states the meteor being above the primals at 47:40 and 52:10

So tldr: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre are toghether 5-B, backed from Kyogre's feat in Generations, the meteor is above both and Rayquaza is the only one who can oppose the meteor, so the meteor has to be 5-B for these reasons

 

[Nerd1435]

Mrk

 

[M3X_2.0]

You didn't answer my question. I asked the reason to use the game and not the manga, not a ridiculous scaling trying to put the meteor equal/superior to 5-B characters. And you do realize that they are only 5-B because of this meteor feat, wich is High 6-A, right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

You didn't answer my question. I asked the reason to use the game and not the manga

Because game is primary canon, so whatever happens both in games and adaptations like manga, the games take the first place, look at the Darkrai matches to see an example

not a ridiculous scaling trying to put the meteor equal/superior to 5-B characters.

I like how ignored my points

And you do realize that they are only 5-B because of this meteor feat, wich is High 6-A, right?

Kyogre destroying the planet overtime and Zinnia statements are now not a factor right?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Because game is primary canon, so whatever happens both in games and adaptations like manga, the games take the first place, look at the Darkrai matches to see an example

There is nothing about "primary canon" here, you can't just assume what is primary canon or not, we had never done such thing before, as you already ignored in the previous thread of yours, a comment from @Ionliosite about the canon.

I like how ignored my points

Ignored because I didn't ask that. Simple as that.

Kyogre destroying the planet overtime and Zinnia statements are now not a factor right?

Destroying a planet overtime isn't 5-B, that's pretty much obvious. Already makes Zinnia's statements useless.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There is nothing about "primary canon" here, you can't just assume what is primary canon or not, we had never done such thing before, as you already ignored in the previous thread of yours, a comment from @Ionliosite about the canon.

Lmao ok, primary canon is a thing, so please just stop already

Ignored because I didn't ask that. Simple as that.

Nice, so now anything that debunks your claims is ignored

Destroying a planet overtime isn't 5-B, that's pretty much obvious. Already makes Zinnia's statements useless.

Hm? I said that toghether they have a similar effect to the meteor, aka they are 5-B if their powers are combined. And how is "breaking the world toghether" not 5-B, is literally how the meteor was described

 

[M3X_2.0]

Lmao ok, primary canon is a thing, so please just stop already

And in the very same blog the user states the manga is also canon, and nothing about the game being primary canon, besides his useless own words about it. There is nothing about game being primary canon, everything is just being used. Now I ask again, why use the manga feat for so long, and now that the calc gets downgrade, use the game statements?

Hm? I said that toghether they have a similar effect to the meteor, aka they are 5-B if their powers are combined. And how is "breaking the world toghether" not 5-B, is literally how the meteor was described

You said they both together have a similar effect to the meteor, you just forgot to tell that to Nintendo. Such statement isn't said anywhere, at least, by the link you linked in the comment, nothing about them being equal to the meteor. It doesn't matter how is Kyogre's statement, the feat is overtime. Take the GBE energy and do the math to find your consistent Tier 6 Pokémon.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And in the very same blog the user states the manga is also canon, and nothing about the game being primary canon, besides his useless own words about it. There is nothing about game being primary canon, everything is just being used. Now I ask again, why use the manga feat for so long, and now that the calc gets downgrade, use the game statements?

The blog was initially made because of deciding the canonicity, with the games being primary and manga/anime being secondary. Also, the verse page states composite canon, so the meteor would be 5-B over High 6-A because of this.

You said they both together have a similar effect to the meteor, you just forgot to tell that to Nintendo. Such statement isn't said anywhere, at least, by the link you linked in the comment, nothing about them being equal to the meteor. It doesn't matter how is Kyogre's statement, the feat is overtime. Take the GBE energy and do the math to find your consistent Tier 6 Pokémon.

The feat being overtime just supports them being 5-B when toghether lol, that's literally ignoring the point. Plus, I said before that Rayquaza is the Hoenn's protector, and the meteor came after the Primals Return, meaning that they have a similar power to the meteor

 

[M3X_2.0]

And all you have is the "breaking the world forever", wich isn't a solid planet busting statement Vs. the actual image of what would happen to the planet in the manga, a surface busting feat. They both complete each other, surface busting statement and feat.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The blog was initially made because of deciding the canonicity, with the games being primary and manga/anime being secondary. Also, the verse page states composite canon, so the meteor would be 5-B over High 6-A because of this.

Composite canon, yeah. The meteor would be 5-B if you have proof, and you don't. I explained that in my previous comment.

The feat being overtime just supports them being 5-B when toghether lol, that's literally ignoring the point. Plus, I said before that Rayquaza is the Hoenn's protector, and the meteor came after the Primals Return, meaning that they have a similar power to the meteor

The feat being overtime supports nothing, stop with non sense stuff. Or do you really think they both together are 5-B, despite Kyogre's overtime feat being Tier 6? What is the timeframe? Minutes? Hours? Take the value in seconds and divide that by the GBE. You will not get Tier 5.

So you have nothing to put the meteor as a legit planet busting meteor. You have a vague statement and a solid surface busting feat from the manga. Feats > Statements in this wiki, doesn't matter if the game is primary canon (you didn't prove that), in Pokémon almost everything is canon. If you have a vague statement + a solid feat from the other media, the feat should be used.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not taking a position in a side or another, but I just want to say that I don't believe the Primals will literally destroy the planet they live on and control in a DB fashion, they will more like turn it into a place completely devastated by floodings, earthquakes etc..., since that's basically what they have always done.

 

[Damage3245]

The feat being overtime supports nothing, stop with non sense stuff. Or do you really think they both together are 5-B, despite Kyogre's overtime feat being Tier 6? What is the timeframe? Minutes? Hours? Take the value in seconds and divide that by the GBE. You will not get Tier 5.

M3X makes sense here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Composite canon, yeah. The meteor would be 5-B if you have proof, and you don't. I explained that in my previous comment.

You called the scaling ridiculous and ignored the proofs because you didn't ask them, so why are you saying that I didn't bring proof?

The feat being overtime supports nothing, stop with non sense stuff.

Supportive feats exists my dude, is not that every feat of a character must be of the same tier.

Or do you really think they both together are 5-B, despite Kyogre's overtime feat being Tier 6?

Is fiction dude, them being Low 5-B+ for destroying the planet overtime when a comparable damage had the same result is definitely not wrong. Plus they're already High 6-A in base, isn't that already enough?

What is the timeframe? Minutes? Hours? Take the value in seconds and divide that by the GBE. You will not get Tier 5.

That's just cherry-picking at this point

So you have nothing to put the meteor as a legit planet busting meteor. You have a vague statement and a solid surface busting feat from the manga. Feats > Statements in this wiki

What? If the statements are solid they're usable

doesn't matter if the game is primary canon (you didn't prove that), in Pokémon almost everything is canon. If you have a vague statement + a solid feat from the other media, the feat should be used.

I proved it, but you again ignored it because you don't want to, but anyways, I called @YuriAkuto to confirm my point, since I was there when that blog was made, so I can confirm for myself that the games are primary canon.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

The first bullet with Kyogre "sinking the planet" isnt 5-B.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That kyogre thing you posted states he’s going to sink the world not bust the planet.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Supportive feats exists my dude, is not that every feat of a character must be of the same tier.

They do exist, but I fail to see how a Tier 6 supports a "5-B" feat. Mind explaning?

Is fiction dude, them being Low 5-B+ for destroying the planet overtime when a comparable damage had the same result is definitely not wrong. Plus they're already High 6-A in base, isn't that already enough?

You can't possibly be Low 5-B+ by destroying a planet overtime. Even if you use 1 minute, you'd get 5-C results, far from 5-B. I fail to see how splitting the Earth in half has anything to do with our discussion. They are High 6-A in base. So what? It does not mean they should be 3 Tiers above with a power up.

If the "splitting the Earth overtime" is about the overtime Earth destruction, yeah, forget that. Not related. And you need to prove that the destruction is indeed about the Earth, and not some flowery language like the "break the world forever" statement, wich isn't solid.

That's just cherry-picking at this point

How so? That's literally how we calculate this. Energy/time = actual energy. But first, you need to prove that this is a planet busting feat but overtime, and not simply what @SamanPatou said. I also agree with him on that one.

What? If the statements are solid they're usable

Keyword: If

It isn't solid. "Breaking the world forever" isn't a solid 5-B statement. Manga feat is clear, it should be used.

Waiting for the blog user to comment here then.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll sleep now and answer everything when I wake up.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They do exist, but I fail to see how a Tier 6 supports a "5-B" feat. Mind explaning?

I mean, Darth Nihilus has a High 6-A feat supporting his 5-B rating, so what re you talking about?

And you need to prove that the destruction is indeed about the Earth, and not some flowery language like the "break the world forever" statement, wich isn't solid.

• Flowery Language
• You'd know that Zinnia reffered to the planet in a serious way if you watched all the links, you're just doing anything to downgrade Pokémon now

But first, you need to prove that this is a planet busting feat but overtime, and not simply what @SamanPatou said. I also agree with him on that one.

Again, the links of the being a threat to the planet in the myths are a confirmation

It isn't solid. "Breaking the world forever" isn't a solid 5-B statement.

Is already explained how it is, stop dodging.

Waiting for the blog user to comment here then.

At least this, now let's suspend this discussion for a moment and let's wait

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll suspend nothing

 

[Antvasima]

@RadicalMrR @Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @WeeklyBattles @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @The_real_cal_howard

I would still appreciate some staff evaluations here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

@RadicalMrR @Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @WeeklyBattles @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus

I would still appreciate some staff evaluations here.

You forgot to tag @The_real_cal_howard, would you tag him too, since regular members can't

 

[Antvasima]

I have added him to the above post.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The feat being overtime supports nothing, stop with non sense stuff. Or do you really think they both together are 5-B, despite Kyogre's overtime feat being Tier 6? What is the timeframe? Minutes? Hours? Take the value in seconds and divide that by the GBE. You will not get Tier 5.

You can't possibly be Low 5-B+ by destroying a planet overtime. Even if you use 1 minute, you'd get 5-C results, far from 5-B.

Btw, this is already kinda false

Earth GBE / 60 seconds = 2.487e32 / 60 = 4.145e30 Joule / 990.68 Exatons, aka already x2.29 times the baseline Low 5-B