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Pokémon 5-B Downgrade (I'm really sorry)

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The_real_cal_howard said:
I...I am a calc group member tho. Or at least I’m an ex calc group member, by my own volition.
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My apologies about forgetting, but are your skills in this area really as good as the members who rejected this calculation?
 
Antvasima said:
My apologies about forgetting, but are your skills in this area really as good as the members who rejected this calculation?
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He did a ton of similar calcs like these for DC, Marvel and other Nintendo verses before (as in, he calc'd feats on this magnitude), so I'd say yes.
 
Cal has admitted that his calculation skills are mediocre at best on other threads, which is why he's been dependent on other calc group members for more harder to calc feats. That's pretty much the reason why he retired. And I even do recall instances where I had to correct him on certain details for calcs; such as Tons of force =/= Tons of TNT equivalent.
 
M3X said:
And all you have is the "breaking the world forever", wich isn't a solid planet busting statement Vs. the actual image of what would happen to the planet in the manga, a surface busting feat. They both complete each other, surface busting statement and feat.
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In regards to the manga vs games.
What the manga shows and what the game show doesn't matter. They're two different meteors, two different feats. While narratively speaking they're the same, feat wise and specifications wise, they aren't.

If the game meteor is > the manga meteor or vice versa, it is what it is.

There is no "completing" each other here, the manga and games version of the meteor are inherently and drastically different, both you and OP trying to grab bits and pieces between the two versions to get a result or an interpretation isn't going to happen.

What is said or shown in one version stays in that version and has no effect on the other, for both good and bad. Drop the "well the games" or "well the manga" shit. Whatever the game meteor ends up being isnt effected by what the manga meteor ends up being, I said this last thread in regards to the manga meteor being only surface wiping regardless of what the game says, but the opposite is true, if the game meteor is higher or lower then the manga, then it's higher or lower than the manga.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Cal has admitted that his calculation skills are mediocre at best on other threads, which is why he's been dependent on other calc group members for more harder to calc feats. That's pretty much the reason why he retired. And I even do recall instances where I had to correct him on certain details for calcs; such as Tons of force =/= Tons of TNT equivalent.
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Oh. That's disappointing, I do recall him making some dope calcs for those verses.
 
He has made some good calculations from time to time; lots of people and plenty of regular users have too. But let's not go that far; it's probably best if more current or more experienced calc group members take a look. I don't want this to look like an attack, but I just needed to point out some notable critiques.
 
Yes, Cal is a highly valued member, but everybody are good at different things.
 
M3X is honestly making the most sense here. The statements from the game being used to push 5-B aren't really enough, and while the statement in the manga is definitely 5-B, the visuals of the feat show a planet intact after the impact, so whatever or not that planet in the background means the feat is only High 6-A or if it is actually 5-B is very debatable.
 
Unless it was already discussed, this feat can definitely still be calced, easily, it just won't be through the method used previously.
I can think of a few ways off the top of my head to go about getting a accurate result, of course none of which would end up as 5-A. But I think 5-B can be saved, or at least 5-C or something depending on how one goes about it.
 
I’d still like for Cal and Ugarik to make responses/more responses here soon but for now I’m still maintaining my stance from before about the fragment speed and distances.

Being at different positions doesn’t mean they couldn’t travel the same distance or speed as each other.
 
Which calc group members have given input to the relevant calculation blog previously?
 
Thank you. If somebody writes a summary of the issues and discussion so far, so they do not have to read over 100 posts, I can send notifications to them afterwards.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you. If somebody writes a summary of the issues and discussion so far, so they do not have to read over 100 posts, I can send notifications to them afterwards.
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In short words, eye-balling the meteor is either High 6-A or 5-B, and we're currently discussing how KE should be used in the calculation.
 
That is not a useful summary. Sorry.
 
Antvasima said:
That is not a useful summary. Sorry.
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sighs

Ok, a more detailed one
  • M3X and others are saying that the meteor is High 6-A due to be calculated at that at best and the "planet busting" statements are vague, but me, Cal and Kukui (and maybe also other 2 but I don't remember the name) were saying that the meteor is 5-B because of the context and narrative behind it
  • We made another look at the calc, and how the KE was used was the issue, so it was decided to use the safest distance the debris crossed.
  • Now we're waiting for Ugarik to say his opinion on the calc too after these new observations on the feat
 
Okay. Can you post links to the evidence for and against as well please, and be more specific regarding what it is in general?
 
All I can do without copypasting the whole discussion is this:

At favor:
StrymULTRA said:
Because
So tldr: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre are toghether 5-B, backed from Kyogre's feat in Generations, the meteor is above both and Rayquaza is the only one who can oppose the meteor, so the meteor has to be 5-B for these reasons
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StrymULTRA said:
Not really, all the surface was always reffered with just "world", so "planet" must mean all of it in context. Also the verse already made differences with context behind the "world" statements, like here it was used for just the landmass, or here for all the seas

Don't you think that using now "planet" for world means something more than just all the landmass/seas now?
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
If im gonna be honest here, im doubting on whether or not the manga version is only surface wiping but it being a bust too.

Narration wise, the manga does the same as the games, saying that the planet would be destroyed. And the only real implication we get of it being only surface wiping is seeing what "looks" like the planet at the bottom of the panel with the fragments, only the issue there is that nothing explicitly proves that was the planet.
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Against:
M3X said:
Composite canon, yeah. The meteor would be 5-B if you have proof, and you don't. I explained that in my previous comment.

The feat being overtime supports nothing, stop with non sense stuff. Or do you really think they both together are 5-B, despite Kyogre's overtime feat being Tier 6? What is the timeframe? Minutes? Hours? Take the value in seconds and divide that by the GBE. You will not get Tier 5.

So you have nothing to put the meteor as a legit planet busting meteor. You have a vague statement and a solid surface busting feat from the manga. Feats > Statements in this wiki, doesn't matter if the game is primary canon (you didn't prove that), in Pokémon almost everything is canon. If you have a vague statement + a solid feat from the other media, the feat should be used.
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M3X said:
They do exist, but I fail to see how a Tier 6 supports a "5-B" feat. Mind explaning?

You can't possibly be Low 5-B+ by destroying a planet overtime. Even if you use 1 minute, you'd get 5-C results, far from 5-B. I fail to see how splitting the Earth in half has anything to do with our discussion. They are High 6-A in base. So what? It does not mean they should be 3 Tiers above with a power up.

If the "splitting the Earth overtime" is about the overtime Earth destruction, yeah, forget that. Not related. And you need to prove that the destruction is indeed about the Earth, and not some flowery language like the "break the world forever" statement, wich isn't solid.

How so? That's literally how we calculate this. Energy/time = actual energy. But first, you need to prove that this is a planet busting feat but overtime, and not simply what @SamanPatou said. I also agree with him on that one.

Keyword: If

It isn't solid. "Breaking the world forever" isn't a solid 5-B statement. Manga feat is clear, it should be used.

Waiting for the blog user to comment here then.
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Plus anything else for both sides is here
 
Okay. Ugarik is one of our most skilled calc group members, so his evaluation should be reliable.
 
If it is a new calculation, that is probably fine.

Which tier would it be btw?
 
On second thought, just because Ugarik said that he agreed with KLOL's arguments, this is not the same as saying that he accepted a calculation from KLOL as well.
 
KLOL also talked about the issues with using KE for this calc as well. Someone should ask Ugarik to specify which part of what KLOL said he agrees with.
 
We need a specification in this regard. We cannot make controversial statistics changes based on guesswork.
 
Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
KLOL also talked about the issues with using KE for this calc as well. Someone should ask Ugarik to specify which part of what KLOL said he agrees with.
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That was before Cal gave input to both this and the KE Planetary thread.

And considering KLOK liked my previous response specifically saying I still agree to use KE:

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I’d still like for Cal and Ugarik to make responses/more responses here soon but for now I’m still maintaining my stance from before about the fragment speed and distances.

Being at different positions doesn’t mean they couldn’t travel the same distance or speed as each other.
Click to expand...
He either agrees with KE being used or does not find it as problematic as your saying.

But ofc I cant speak for him overall.
 
No, no CGM has accepted your calculation. All the issues with the mass leaving the panel is still true.
 
Since 896.53 Zettatons likely got definitely accepted (idk why the comment got deleted lol) so, the newfound calc makes some changes (this applies to just the 5-B ratings, the 4-B ratings will be untouched):
  • Deoxys will have his calc changed
  • Base Rayquaza, Base Mewtwo, Mew and regular Genesect will have the new 5-B value too
  • Mega Mewtwo, Shiny Genesect, Base Kyurem and whoever scales from them will be 5-B+
  • Mega Rayquaza will be either 5-B+ or 5-A (baseline 5-A), depending on the decision in how it scales above Deoxys
  • Victini will be 5-A
  • Black/White Kyurem and the Original Dragon will be 5-A
  • Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Latios and Latias will be 5-B
  • Cobalion, Terrakion and Virizion will get be "At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B+ to 5-A, possibly 4-B" rating
  • Hoopa will be "At least High 6-A, likely 5-B+, possibly 4-B"
Aka all Tier 5 Pokémon pages should be unlocked and edited
 
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tbh, i'd say that Mega Ray could like have a "Possibly 5-A".
The meteor feat and 5-A is only a 3x difference, which may seem large, but then you consider that base is as strong as Deoxys (who did this feat casually, in his normal form), and Mega Ray can literally vaporize the meteor that did this feat with Dragon Ascent, one shot Deoxys in his most durable part (Dragon Ascent voided the crystal, which is shown to be able to survive attacks without a scratch that annihilates the rest of it) borderline killing it with one Dragon Ascent.

The difference between Mega Ray and Normal Ray is a big enough difference to where the former can one shot characters on his former tier of power if he wants to and he can make this feat look pathetic compared to Dragon Ascent, given he evaporated the meteor with it.
 
Chariot190 said:
tbh, i'd say that Mega Ray could like have a "Possibly 5-A".
The meteor feat and 5-A is only a 3x difference, which may seem large, but then you consider that base is as strong as Deoxys (who did this feat casually, in his normal form), and Mega Ray can literally vaporize the meteor that did this feat with Dragon Ascent, one shot Deoxys in his most durable part (Dragon Ascent voided the crystal, which is shown to be able to survive attacks without a scratch that annihilates the rest of it) borderline killing it with one Dragon Ascent.

The difference between Mega Ray and Normal Ray is a big enough difference to where the former can one shot characters on his former tier of power if he wants to and he can make this feat look pathetic compared to Dragon Ascent, given he evaporated the meteor with it.
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Since no one scales from Mega Rayquaza, but only from Mega Mewtwo, I can agree
 
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