Pokémon 5-B Downgrade (I'm really sorry)

[Planck69]

Reading through the thread, I'm with M3X. Using a single statement not supported by any actual 5-B feat is ridiculous, especially something as vague as "destroy the world".

 

[StrymULTRA]

People didn't check the links and it shows

 

[Planck69]

I did and both links actually referencing the feat only come up to " break/destroy the world". Not only that but it actually needs a feat somewhere near 5-B to be valid.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The first bullet with Kyogre "sinking the planet" isnt 5-B.

Did I say it is? I said that it would destroy the planet overtime, and it being 5-B along with Kyogre is even supported from even the Myths in Delta Episode

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Tier 5-B meteor looks like wank. Calculations have different results and the declarations that support the Tier are "useless"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except that they aren't? Zinnia was a part of the team Magma/Aqua, and the fact that she stated more times "planet" instead of just "world" unlike the teams which were reffering to just the surface when they were using the Primals is already enough

 

[Planck69]

They are when they're all we have to go off of since the best feat isn't even close to 5-B. Feats> Statements

 

[StrymULTRA]

They are when they're all we have to go off of since the best feat isn't even close to 5-B.

What are you talking about, when we're talking about also what's said in the myths now

 

[Planck69]

Maybe I missed them but could you post the "this meteor will completely annahilate the planet" statements?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe I missed them but could you post the "this meteor will completely annahilate the planet" statements?

I did, did you check all the links I've send? Btw also the proof that team Magma/Aqua reffered to just the surface with "world"

Because

• Kyogre was already about to destroy the planet (even if overtime) and it can't reffer to just the surface because the ones which were about the surface are the base forms, so about the Primals they have to destroy the planet in its entirely
• Rayquaza was stated more times to be the only one who can oppose the meteor's destruction without destroying the Earth of another timeline
• Groudon and Kyogre toghether and both in the Primal forms were described as a threat comparable to the meteor, since even there only Rayquaza was the only one who was able to stop them, making the power of Primal form Groudon and Kyogre combined 5-B
• The meteor was alreday told to come due to precognition, and the effects are greater than any thread came before and will completely destroy the planet, breaking it forever, and this needs overcoming the GBE at very minimum
• Zinnia implied again that Rayquaza is the only one who can save the world and that is the protector of Hoenn, confirming it above Primal Groudon and Kyogre again
• Zinnia again states the meteor being above the primals at 47:40 and 52:10

So tldr: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre are toghether 5-B, backed from Kyogre's feat in Generations, the meteor is above both and Rayquaza is the only one who can oppose the meteor, so the meteor has to be 5-B for these reasons

^

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Nothing invalidates the calculation

 

[StrymULTRA]

People didn't check the links and it shows

(2)

 

[Planck69]

First one says he'll sink the world, which just means he'll submerge all landmasses. How anyone gets "5-B over time" is beyond me.

Second one is just referring to "saving the planet" which could just mean saving all life.

Third and beyond are just repeats of "destroy/break the world".

 

[StrymULTRA]

Second one is just referring to "saving the planet" which could just mean saving all life.

Third and beyond are just repeats of "destroy/break the world".

Not really, all the surface was always reffered with just "world", so "planet" must mean all of it in context. Also the verse already made differences with context behind the "world" statements, like here it was used for just the landmass, or here for all the seas

Don't you think that using now "planet" for world means something more than just all the landmass/seas now?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I was called for canonicity stuff? Blog originally had the "levels of canon" thingy, but it created too much discussions and baseless accusations so everything is just put as "canon".

Although it's just common sense that games should still have a little more importance than the rest if they both portray the same feat differently.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay im very lost about whats happening here and have been busy with other things to not come by sooner. So can anyone tell me whats going on here?

Why is the feat being downgraded below 5-B now? Assalt's original calc, thats currently being used, calced the feat as 5-B off of surface wiping alone, so whats the issue here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay im very lost about whats happening here and have been busy with other things to not come by sooner. So can anyone tell me whats going on here?

Why is the feat being downgraded below 5-B now? Assalt's original calc, thats currently being used, calced the feat as 5-B off of surface wiping alone, so whats the issue here?

In short words wasn't calculable due to too much unknown things as how much the debris would spread or the time-frame

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I looked at the original thread. Nothing is wrong with the KE based calc from the original. Whoever gave the idea that we don’t assume timeframes for these kinds of things is outright wrong since we’ve done this forever. This isn’t even a Pokemon issue, but a comic/manga issue in general if you wanna revise standards, as this applies to more than just planet busting.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In short words wasn't calculable due to too much unknown things as how much the debris would spread or the time-frame

Could you please be more specific about what factors in the calc are unknown? Just so ik what to work with here.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Because

• Kyogre was already about to destroy the planet (even if overtime) and it can't reffer to just the surface because the ones which were about the surface are the base forms, so about the Primals they have to destroy the planet in its entirely

That's just him enveloping the world with clouds, right? If so, "Sinking the world" is not planetary, it’s just sinking the continents (?)

The potency of this feat:

Average height of Storm Clouds is 8000 Meters.

Volume = (Pi)(20000000^2)(8000)
Volume = 1.0053096e+19

Mass = 1.0053096e+19*1.003
Mass = 1.0083255e+19

Energy = 1.0083255e+19*4000
Energy = 4.033302e+22J

Country/6-B

This feat can be considered "At least 6-B, likely far higher"...?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could you please be more specific about what factors in the calc are unknown? Just so ik what to work with here.

Is all here

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's just him enveloping the world with clouds, right? If so, "Sinking the world" is not planetary, it’s just sinking the continents (?)

The potency of this feat:

Average height of Storm Clouds is 8000 Meters.

Volume = (Pi)(20000000^2)(8000)
Volume = 1.0053096e+19

Mass = 1.0053096e+19*1.003
Mass = 1.0083255e+19

Energy = 1.0083255e+19*4000
Energy = 4.033302e+22J

Country/6-B

This feat can be considered "At least 6-B, likely far higher"...?

No

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's just him enveloping the world with clouds, right? If so, "Sinking the world" is not planetary, it’s just sinking the continents (?)

The potency of this feat:

Average height of Storm Clouds is 8000 Meters.

Volume = (Pi)(20000000^2)(8000)
Volume = 1.0053096e+19

Mass = 1.0053096e+19*1.003
Mass = 1.0083255e+19

Energy = 1.0083255e+19*4000
Energy = 4.033302e+22J

Country/6-B

This feat can be considered "At least 6-B, likely far higher"...?

Can people stop mentioning Kyogre's storm feat here? It was already downgraded before because of CAPE, so its a feat we definitely arent using here any longer.

 

[KLOL506]

I looked at the original thread. Nothing is wrong with the KE based calc from the original. Whoever gave the idea that we don’t assume timeframes for these kinds of things is outright wrong since we’ve done this forever. This isn’t even a Pokemon issue, but a comic/manga issue in general if you wanna revise standards, as this applies to more than just planet busting.

NVM, I screwed up on explaining this.

Timeframe wasn't the issue, but the issue people had was that not all the debris travelled at the same speed as the fast moving ones, like in some feats where planets and moons are cracked into two beyond repair but several of their large pieces are still intact and haven't moved much compared to the other smaller, faster-moving debris, like in Infamous as an example where the Beast cracks the moon into 3 but the pieces are mostly intact.

 

[TheGatememer]

Quick question, dont know if its already been answered here, where did the picture from this calc come from? I even tried searching by image, but can't seem to find the source.

 

[KLOL506]

Quick question, dont know if its already been answered here, where did the picture from this calc come from?

Wait, that looks oddly familiar to the image Strym used.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah after coming back from the thread in question, nothing is problematic here. Strym’s first calc is fine and the reasons for it being a no-go dont work as they violate reasonable assumptions we’ve been making for years.

 

[TheGatememer]

nvm found the source.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah after coming back from the thread in question, nothing is problematic here. Strym’s first calc is fine and the reasons for it being a no-go dont work as they violate reasonable assumptions we’ve been making for years.

So the 5-A one (im assuming you meant this) is back on the table?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Also I'm going to chime in and say, although I'm normally against composite stuff in general the canon blog as well as the discussion it spawned from never got fully resolved and in the end as YuriAkuto said everything still remained "canon".

So the tier 5 feats from the spin-off games are still legitimate to use for scaling.

IIRC there's was ment to be further discussion on the canon subject (post-forum move).

 

[StrymULTRA]

So the 5-A calc is still on-going, nice to hear this

 

[KLOL506]

So the 5-A calc is still on-going, nice to hear this

Prolly should contact the calc members again to be sure, and to see if they and Cal can come to an agreement.

 

[KLOL506]

Also the manga only shows the destruction of Earth's surface at high speeds which you calc'd while the game just assumes the entire Earth to go bust as well, how do we deal with that??

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also the manga only shows the destruction of Earth's surface at high speeds which you calc'd while the game just assumes the entire Earth to go bust as well, how do we deal with that??

If im gonna be honest here, im doubting on whether or not the manga version is only surface wiping but it being a bust too.

Narration wise, the manga does the same as the games, saying that the planet would be destroyed. And the only real implication we get of it being only surface wiping is seeing what "looks" like the planet at the bottom of the panel with the fragments, only the issue there is that nothing explicitly proves that was the planet.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also the manga only shows the destruction of Earth's surface at high speeds which you calc'd while the game just assumes the entire Earth to go bust as well, how do we deal with that??

We make anything composte in canon, so the higest value will be used because "lol composite", simple as that

 

[KLOL506]

Understood.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also I'm going to chime in and say, although I'm normally against composite stuff in general the canon blog as well as the discussion it spawned from never got fully resolved and in the end as YuriAkuto said everything still remained "canon".

That's not really how it got resolved tho. "Everything being canon" did disappear, it's the idea of "level of canon" for the ones proven to be canon which was abandonned.

That's why the blog is on the verse page in the first place.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Oh yeah btw @YuriAkuto, sorry I was mean to you in the canon thread. I have no exc uses.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

That's not really how it got resolved tho. "Everything being canon" did disappear, it's the idea of "level of canon" for the ones proven to be canon which was abandonned.

That's why the blog is on the verse page in the first place.

I see nvm then looks like I misunderstood. Either way I believe the canon debate should still take priority especially since folks are still using the "levels of canon" as an argument even tho it got abandoned.

Also the "everything being canon" idea being scrapped hasn't (to my knowledge) been applied to the verse at all... unless there's still contention for it.

Sorry if I'm derailing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I see nvm then looks like I misunderstood. Either way I feel the canon debate should still take priority especially since folks are still using "levels of canon" as an argument even tho it got abandoned.

It was already clarified tho