PoC Hax Revision 2 of 2

[RedReaper]

What do you suggest as a compromise then?

Also, again, I've pointed out numerous times that most of those examples are bunk.

I did concede on a few, though, hence my desire for compromise.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Also, again, I've pointed out numerous times that most of those examples are bunk.

I said just above this post:

"these weapons are like the hearts for the amulet and the Bangle of Time, most weapons in DMC2, and also Bayonetta's weapons and extra items. They are in the base game but not shown being acquired in story. They require doing extra things that the main story doesn't encapsulate. They have descriptions based in lore to prove their canonicity. They are referenced or at least alluded to by something from the main story. Whether you get them or not doesn't affect the main story. The list goes on and on. The only clear difference between them and those other items is the luck feature, which is just a game mechanic, and the real money, which from a lore perspective is the same as in-game currency. Even the limited loadout is just a gameplay mechanic, and one which clashes with the lore. If other characters can have DLC weapons you have to buy from the company, often as part of "season passes" which are often mystery boxes in and of themselves, then if anything these weapons are more viable than them since they're actually in the base game and referenced by the gunsmith in a cutscene. And don't require downloading them seperately from a thoroughly non-canon company Web page."

There are multiple ways in which these weapons parallel other items from other DMC games and from Bayonetta. The only differences largely consist of gameplay mechanics.

 

[RedReaper]

I said just above this post:

"these weapons are like the hearts for the amulet and the Bangle of Time, most weapons in DMC2, and also Bayonetta's weapons and extra items.

I’ve pointed out this comparison is null.

They are in the base game but not shown being acquired in story. They require doing extra things that the main story doesn't encapsulate.

I’ve also pointed out that it doesn’t follow the standards of an actual bonus mode.

They have descriptions based in lore to prove their canonicity. They are referenced or at least alluded to by something from the main story. Whether you get them or not doesn't affect the main story.

Again weapon upgrade system has no bearing on how you attain weapons. It is literally an entirely separate thing.

The list goes on and on. The only clear difference between them and those other items is the luck feature, which is just a game mechanic, and the real money, which from a lore perspective is the same as in-game currency. Even the limited loadout is just a gameplay mechanic, and one which clashes with the lore. If other characters can have DLC weapons you have to buy from the company, often as part of "season passes" which are often mystery boxes in and of themselves, then if anything these weapons are more viable than them since they're actually in the base game and referenced by the gunsmith in a cutscene.

Quite literally this reference is the reason I’m offering compromise.

There are multiple ways in which these weapons parallel other items from other DMC games and from Bayonetta. The only differences largely consist of gameplay mechanics.

I’ve pointed out why these comparisons don’t lean into your favor, at all. Your other examples, like the Black Ops 3 Campaign Player Character fits. Ryu Hayabusa fits. 1-5 Dante and Bayonetta don’t.

Hence why I said I pointed out why most (not all), of those examples are bunk. If you want to re-read why they are, go do so, but I’m literally trying to press forward instead of being stuck right now.

Also, I’d like an answer to the original question. Being, “What do you think would be an adequate compromise?”

 

[Random-Helper323]

I’ve pointed out this comparison is null.

You argued that comparing these weapons to the Bayonetta weapons and some other DMC items like Time Bangle and devil hearts is null because of the fact these weapons come from a micro transmission. This is a gameplay mechanic. I drew numerous similarities between the items, and even pointed out how the differences were either irrelevant to lore or gameplay mechanics.

I’ve also pointed out that it doesn’t follow the standards of an actual bonus mode.

You've asserted your opinion that it doesn't due to chance mechanics and real money, both of which are game mechanics and irrelevant to lore. You're trying to treat a mini game differently from others simply because it's luck-based and uses real money. Both these things are game mechanics and irrelevant to the lore. And even after I presented examples of other characters with paid DLC weapons you still stick to that.

Again weapon upgrade system has no bearing on how you attain weapons. It is literally an entirely separate thing.

That's completely irrelevant. You're trying to dismiss the weapon appearing and other weapons being referenced and foreshadowed because the cutscene is connected to the weapon upgrade system rather than the mini game to acquire the weapons.

I’ve pointed out why these comparisons don’t lean into your favor, at all. Your other examples, like the Black Ops 3 Campaign Player Character fits. Ryu Hayabusa fits. 1-5 Dante and Bayonetta don’t.

You've dismissed them as they aren't paid DLC, but they have other similarities which are relevant to other arguments you've made, as I listed above:

Both these weapons and the weapons in Bayonetta and several DMC items like Bangle of Time and devil hearts have a lot in common:

*Are in the base game but not shown being acquired in story.

*Require doing extra things that the main story doesn't encapsulate.

*They have descriptions based in lore to prove their canonicity.

*They are referenced or at least alluded to by something from the main story.

*Whether you get them or not doesn't affect the main story.

These statements are every bit as true of the Bayonetta weapons and several items in DMC as they are of the PoC weapons. And of numerous game weapons which are simply bought from in-game stores.

Hence why I said I pointed out why most (not all), of those examples are bunk.

You seem to believe that all of them were meant to have the same similarities to PoC. You also overlook the fact that between them they cover all of the arguments against PoC. CoD covers real money and transactions, Bayonetta covers weapons not being in the main story, and DMC3 already covers the limited arsenal loadout which is the entire basis for the "customisable" buzzword you keep using.

Also, I’d like an answer to the original question. Being, “What do you think would be an adequate compromise?”

Well, perhaps start with listing at least Dante's weapons as normal equipment, since he's the character who should obtain the weapons. Probably Lady's too, since she's also got a role alongside him. Given that Vergil has held onto Beowulf the whole time (or reclaimed it after his revival), and we all know he got Mundus' hand up his butt to work him like a puppet following PoC, and very notably Mundus both broke Yamato and took it from him, an argument could be made for his weapons being taken or destroyed by Mundus, or even by Dante since we know Vergil blew up in DMC1.

 

[Deadguy]

I agree with tony and red

this thread took longer than it should for just some random weapons that will never appear again

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

I agree with with helper and gilver seeing that the micro transactions are just gameplay mechanics and that the weapons gained through them should not be treated differently than a weapon gained through something like a mini game or a paid dlc as all three are per player choice to gain or not

 

[Galens]

I don't know what's going on here and I don't mean to take sides on whether weapons are optional equipment or not, but I want to clarify that PoC weapons are not acquired exclusively with microtransactions. The item used in the gacha can be obtained both in the story and in the challenges and even buying it in the store using the same currency of the game itself that in the same way you get in the story and in the challenges.

 

[Random-Helper323]

PoC weapons are not acquired exclusively with microtransactions. The item used in the gacha can be obtained both in the story and in the challenges and even buying it in the store using the same currency of the game itself that in the same way you get in the story and in the challenges.

Wait, is this true? You're sure this is indeed the case?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Wait, is this true? You're sure this is indeed the case?

He is the one who provides us with all the scans, because he has the game running properly. So yes.

 

[Random-Helper323]

If that's the case, then even the flimsy "gacha" argument is not only unreasonable, it's actually completely incorrect as well. The weapons can be acquired by purchasing them with in-game money and even by completing challenges. If they're optional, then every game weapon gotten that way is.

This is clear cut now. These weapons aren't optional unless all of Dante's DMC3 weapons are optional too, and unless the Master Chief is limited to two weapons instead of four, and unless the Call of Duty characters only have their starting weapons as standard equipment.

 

[Galens]

Wait, is this true? You're sure this is indeed the case?

the item used to play the gacha can be obtained in many ways either in the story of the game, in the challenges or buying it with the different coins of the game and there is even an option to buy weapons directly without using the gacha that consists in using some special stones that you collect when in the gacha you get a weapon that you already have in your inventory

 

[Random-Helper323]

the item used to play the gacha can be obtained in many ways either in the story of the game, in the challenges or buying it with the different coins of the game and there is even an option to buy weapons directly without using the gacha that consists in using some special stones that you collect when in the gacha you get a weapon that you already have in your inventory

Thanks for the information. We appreciate you helping out here.

 

[RedReaper]

But that's how Gacha works. He's legitimately just describing the fact you can play the game without engaging in the monetary system to buy the in-game currency to summon-In other words, like every Gacha game. There are F2P players on every Gacha Game. How rewarding that experience is, though, is up to an individual game.

 

[Random-Helper323]

PoC weapons are not acquired exclusively with microtransactions. The item used in the gacha can be obtained both in the story and in the challenges and even buying it in the store using the same currency of the game itself that in the same way you get in the story and in the challenges.

^^ this above is what he said.

But that's how Gacha works. He's legitimately just describing the fact you can play the game without engaging in the monetary system to buy the in-game currency to summon-In other words, like every Gacha game. There are F2P players on every Gacha Game. How rewarding that experience is, though, is up to an individual game.

He's just said you can acquire the weapons via in-game currency and by beating challenges and even from completing the story. Your entire argument was that the weapons were only obtained via microtransactions, which we now know is factually incorrect. If the items can be gotten by completing challenges, buying with in-game currency and even through the story, then them being optional means all weapons acquired any of those three ways without a cutscene also should be optional. So every Bayonetta and Nier weapon, every weapon in any gameewhich is purchased in the game, and numerous reward weapons in numerous games.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Moral of the story is, the method in which an weapon is acquired is superficial and hence irrelevant.
What matters ultimately is lore of an item, unless it doesn't actively contradicts chronology or certain circumstances of events, it's fine to use as standard as we always do.

 

[RedReaper]

^^ this above is what he said.


He's just said you can acquire the weapons via in-game currency and by beating challenges and even from completing the story. Your entire argument was that the weapons were only obtained via microtransactions, which we now know is factually incorrect. If the items can be gotten by completing challenges, buying with in-game currency and even through the story, then them being optional means all weapons acquired any of those three ways without a cutscene also should be optional. So every Bayonetta and Nier weapon, every weapon in any gameewhich is purchased in the game, and numerous reward weapons in numerous games.

No, he said "... not exclusively with microtransactions (real world money). The item used (in-game currency for summons) in the gacha can be obtained both in the story and in the challenges and even buying it in the store using the same currency (as there is multiple in-game currencies to be noted in PoC) of the game itself that in the same way you get in the story and in the challenges."

Not the weapons. The Summon Currency.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

All of this is just smoke and mirrors. Irrelevant details.

 

[RedReaper]

No, it's literally you and Random misinterpreting his words. He stated that the capacity to earn the Summon Currency, not weapons, is earnable in ways that are not relegated to throwing your real money at it. We have known this from the beginning, as Gacha games also have a free to play market alongside their incentive to pay to catch whales/Pay to win players. It's not smoke and mirrors. It's hyper relevant details that needed to be clarified.

 

[RedReaper]

Also, at this point you two are super outvoted.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Still zero relevance to the lore.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Paid DLC weapons which if anything are less viable are included as standard equipment.

Also, at this point you two are super outvoted.

Not exactly. Only yourself and two others strongly advocated for optional equipment, and when you attempted to make the revisions in your favour and close the thread to silence disagreement, your revisions were rolled back.

Seriously, why is the weapons being optional, which poses nothing but a threat to DMC and requires treating DMC more harshly than other verses, so important to you?

The weapons have a cutscene appearance and reference, which you attempted to dismiss because that cutscene showed a weapon being upgraded. They have an in-game bonus mode to acquire them, which we now know can be gotten without even the real money. So the only difference between it and any other bonus mode is that it's luck instead of skill, a meaningless difference from a canon and lore perspective, especially when skill and grinding can get you more tries making it somewhat skill-based too. As I said before, you referring to it as the opposite of a bonus mode leads me to think you're looking at it from the perspective of a gamer who values skill and resents shit that rewards paying to win, rather than the perspective of a scaler who analyses the weapons from a lore perspective.

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

question how many people have voted in each side and does this thread need staff input

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Every thread needs staff input. Atleast one or two.
Considering the optional/standard debate got reset a 100 comments ago, we need to reach a consensus before we call some mods.

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

thanks needed to now this since I'm new here

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Np

 

[RedReaper]

Paid DLC weapons which if anything are less viable are included as standard equipment.


Not exactly. Only yourself and two others strongly advocated for optional equipment, and when you attempted to make the revisions in your favour and close the thread to silence disagreement, your revisions were rolled back.

Seriously, why is the weapons being optional, which poses nothing but a threat to DMC and requires treating DMC more harshly than other verses, so important to you?

The weapons have a cutscene appearance and reference, which you attempted to dismiss because that cutscene showed a weapon being upgraded. They have an in-game bonus mode to acquire them, which we now know can be gotten without even the real money. So the only difference between it and any other bonus mode is that it's luck instead of skill, a meaningless difference from a canon and lore perspective, especially when skill and grinding can get you more tries making it somewhat skill-based too. As I said before, you referring to it as the opposite of a bonus mode leads me to think you're looking at it from the perspective of a gamer who values skill and resents shit that rewards paying to win, rather than the perspective of a scaler who analyses the weapons from a lore perspective.

…Except as I have emphasized several times before, there is no lore explanation for these weapons. You have the weapon upgrade system, which is explicitly about upgrading weapons and the guild. You have no actual bonus mode, as merely summoning for weapons does not qualify as one. (And I referred to it as the opposite of one because you directly compared it to one. A bonus mode has specific criteria regardless of how you view it, and Gacha Summoning is not within those parameters.) And you’re trying to emphasize that it can be done as a F2P Player, which we already knew based on the actual systems Gacha Games inherently work with. You also emphasize there is “no difference” lore wise, but as I have thrown in your face repeatedly, there is no lore to be spoken of even if you are right, because it’s an inherently “meta” thing. I’d in itself like you to prove these weapons have lore relevance. Not a scene unrelated to the weapon earning system (the Gacha), but actual relevance to the weapon earning mechanics. Any. And balance this lore out with the lore of the weapons themselves, which I’ve covered explicitly would contradict specific scenes based on what they do. Oh, and make sure you got it for all 100+ weapons for Dante, and Vergil’s 40+, and Lady’s 40+. And when Nero inevitably has his own weapon Alts, his too, despite the fact he canonically uses the Red Queen because it’s a suped up standard issue Order of the Sword melee weapon made to kill Demons made by Agnus, a weapon he learned to use explicitly under guidance by Credo.

I also pointed out (alongside Tony) that there’s not really any threat or danger by calling these optional, especially when they’re markedly different compared to normal weapons gained in standard DMC Games, with me conceding on specific examples, however mostly disagreeing with them and pointing out their flaws.

Hell, I even stated I was willing to compromise, but your idea of compromise is literally just “these two totally get standard equipment, one doesn’t” when the circumstances affects them all equally. And while I did admittedly suggest Additional Equipment, I did so specifically because one of your examples, Master Chief, literally does so. (And when I pointed out how this doesn’t help your case, you defended it anyway. Same as your Bayonetta example, and GoW. None of these examples fit, or benefitted, your case and you defended them anyway, implying that you still agreed with your notion of what is correct, not mine.)

Personally, if we’re gonna compromise on it in a way that is supposed to be 100% fair, I myself would be partial to “With Prep,” especially since, if we go by your interpretation, the Weapon Master in itself would signify these weapons exist and also their extensive preparation needed by Dante to use them. Especially if we go by the Bartender’s use of an item to give it power before Dante can use it.

Also, I went to change it because I thought the convo, like I said prior, was not something super insane that needed two whole pages of debate when in my eyes it’s a simple concept. I didn’t attempt to purposely just close the matter, I literally just thought “Oh, they misunderstood, let me clarify, then we’re done here.” Sorry if you I made you believe I had negative intent in that action, though.

Also, it’s literally me, Tony, Deadguy, and one other person versus you, Gilver, and Potato (who really just arrived, and I also forgot was here when I said that.) It went from a clearly us favored (not counting Deadguy in that sentiment since he just voted), to now a one vote off thread.

 

[Random-Helper323]

…Except as I have emphasized several times before, there is no lore explanation for these weapons.

You have a gunsmith who can give them, and places you can find them.

You have no actual bonus mode, as merely summoning for weapons does not qualify as one. (And I referred to it as the opposite of one because you directly compared it to one. A bonus mode has specific criteria regardless of how you view it, and Gacha Summoning is not within those parameters.)

This seems like a very vague difference at best.

prove these weapons have lore relevance. Not a scene unrelated to the weapon earning system (the Gacha), but actual relevance to the weapon earning mechanics.

There's a cutscene which contains one weapon and references more. Why do we need that cutscene to feature a gacha system?

And balance this lore out with the lore of the weapons themselves, which I’ve covered explicitly would contradict specific scenes based on what they do.

You mean how the Rebellion is all that appears in cutscenes, which is standard in DMC and Bayonetta games, or the hax the weapons have which I've already mentioned is similar to Quicksilver, pointless against anything it's worth using it against.

I also pointed out (alongside Tony) that there’s not really any threat or danger by calling these optional, especially when they’re markedly different compared to normal weapons gained in standard DMC Games

If you think setting a precedent for DMC's items and even in-game descriptions being non-canon isn't a threat even after I described how unreasonable detractors are, then there's no point trying to reason with you; you won't understand until it results in something nasty.

(And when I pointed out how this doesn’t help your case, you defended it anyway. Same as your Bayonetta example, and GoW. None of these examples fit, or benefitted, your case and you defended them anyway, implying that you still agreed with your notion of what is correct, not mine.)

They all feature standard weapons which share something in common with these; not appearing in cutscenes, carry more than their loadout allows in-game, etc.

Personally, if we’re gonna compromise on it in a way that is supposed to be 100% fair, I myself would be partial to “With Prep,” especially since, if we go by your interpretation, the Weapon Master in itself would signify these weapons exist and also their extensive preparation needed by Dante to use them. Especially if we go by the Bartender’s use of an item to give it power before Dante can use it.

It seemed that was more a matter of fixing it, not something that would be required repeatedly.

Also, I went to change it because I thought the convo, like I said prior, was not something super insane that needed two whole pages of debate when in my eyes it’s a simple concept. I didn’t attempt to purposely just close the matter, I literally just thought “Oh, they misunderstood, let me clarify, then we’re done here.” Sorry if you I made you believe I had negative intent in that action, though.

You attempted to make the revisions and close the thread without any agreement. That's probably why it got rolled back. You definitely shouldn't do it. At best you were being closed-minded and at worst dishonest.

and one other person

I didn't notice a fourth person agreeing with you. Although you don't mention their name, so...

 

[RedReaper]

I didn't notice a fourth person agreeing with you. Although you don't mention their name, so...

Reploid. Also, missed this the first time, Luke too. So it's 5 v 3.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

Reploid. Also, missed this the first time, Luke too. So it's 5 v 3.

sr but I forget what you guy debate though

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

bump

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

Bump

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

bumpity

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

royale bump

 

[Palito266]

Bomp

 

[RedReaper]

Mm.

I could split the difference and just call them "Gacha Weapons," on the profile.

Would you two find that suitable?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Mm.

I could split the difference and just call them "Gacha Weapons," on the profile.

Would you two find that suitable?

Dante's equipment is currently listed as only the starting swords and pistols being standard. So these weapons should just be listed as the PoC weapons for him. There's honestly no in-story difference between the PoC weapons and the Bangle of Time and Devil Hearts, and the Bayonetta weapons (I have to mention a verse that isn't hated on the Wiki here, or someone will just push for them to be non-canon too). They can all be collected in the base game by doing extra things, and are all acquired by stepping outside the standard progress of the story. You've taken an issue with the gacha stuff based on a very subjective line of reasoning, and paid DLC purchased from an external website is standard on other profiles, treated the same as any other weapon in the respective verse.

The issue is that your entire argument is basically that the items are essentially non-canon, which people will definitely stretch to attack other things in DMC, with no need to treat other verses the same way. Remember that Earl's hitbox argument was supported by two staff members, arguably three, and wasn't dismissed as it would have been if he'd argued it for anything else. It almost got accepted. That's only a little bit of the bias, nothing compared to what was going on a few years back. A few years ago it would have been accepted. DMC being treated more harshly than other verses and intentionally sniped at out of spite is something that was intentionally implemented a few years ago, and it is still present on the Wiki. My caution is not paranoia, it is born of lots of experience.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I almost had a heart attack.

But yeah naming the weapons this or that is irrelevant. Just mention those weapons as PoC key and be done with it imo.

 

[Robo432343]

dante has regeneration negation but what type is it

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

dante has regeneration negation but what type is it

Baklava desert layered high Godly neg

 

[RedReaper]

Dante's equipment is currently listed as only the starting swords and pistols being standard. So these weapons should just be listed as the PoC weapons for him. There's honestly no in-story difference between the PoC weapons and the Bangle of Time and Devil Hearts, and the Bayonetta weapons (I have to mention a verse that isn't hated on the Wiki here, or someone will just push for them to be non-canon too). They can all be collected in the base game by doing extra things, and are all acquired by stepping outside the standard progress of the story. You've taken an issue with the gacha stuff based on a very subjective line of reasoning, and paid DLC purchased from an external website is standard on other profiles, treated the same as any other weapon in the respective verse.

The issue is that your entire argument is basically that the items are essentially non-canon, which people will definitely stretch to attack other things in DMC, with no need to treat other verses the same way. Remember that Earl's hitbox argument was supported by two staff members, arguably three, and wasn't dismissed as it would have been if he'd argued it for anything else. It almost got accepted. That's only a little bit of the bias, nothing compared to what was going on a few years back. A few years ago it would have been accepted. DMC being treated more harshly than other verses and intentionally sniped at out of spite is something that was intentionally implemented a few years ago, and it is still present on the Wiki. My caution is not paranoia, it is born of lots of experience.

But I clarified later that I meant something along the lines of a noncanon set of weapons for this game specifically. He doesn't have a canon standard equipment for this game. It's allllll optional. Literally, as I pointed out before, it fits the bill of the RPG Character in not having a dedicated loadout. And yes, whilst there are characters with completely optional sets of weaponry who aren't listed in this way, my question is why follow in the footsteps of those people when by all accounts THEY are in the wrong for doing so?


Also it's kinda just whataboutism in all of your counterarguments, reflecting on the thread.