PoC Hax Revision 2 of 2

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, let's all agree not to fight among ourselves. Let me take a step back. Hi, RedReaper, I don't think I've met you yet. It's a pleasure. If we were in person I'd be shaking your hand right now. You did a good job compiling those galleries of the weapons. Very good work, and well done.

In regards to these weapons, video games regularly contain weapons gotten through side-quests, in-game stores and even predatory micro-transactions, and even more predatory loot-boxes. The companies doing this should be ashamed of themselves, but we all know money overrides shame. Regardless of how much these companies should have some integrity, those weapons are generally counted on this Wiki if I'm not mistaken.

It's probably best to either make a PoC key or list that equipment as equipment they have access to. In the case of Dante he might have sold them to support his stripper habit, but Vergil would have hoarded them and Lady would have kept them too. Convenient, since Dante and Vergil hardly get any new abilities from the weapons, whereas Lady benefits a great deal and helps explain how she fights strong-ish demons without being beaten up and forced to swallow her own boots.

On that note, the revisions you made were reverted, so we should all discuss first and then conclude the thread as a team. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

In the case of Dante he might have sold them to support his stripper habit,

Dante doesn't sell his weapons, in fact he pays premium to Enzo to store it in his shop. This is explained in CD Drama.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Dante doesn't sell his weapons, in fact he pays premium to Enzo to store it in his shop. This is explained in CD Drama.

True, it just seemed like he was donating them to Enzo. The stripper habit comment was a joke.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Fair enough

 

[RedReaper616]

Okay, let's all agree not to fight among ourselves. Let me take a step back. Hi, RedReaper, I don't think I've met you yet. It's a pleasure. If we were in person I'd be shaking your hand right now. You did a good job compiling those galleries of the weapons. Very good work, and well done.

In regards to these weapons, video games regularly contain weapons gotten through side-quests, in-game stores and even predatory micro-transactions, and even more predatory loot-boxes. The companies doing this should be ashamed of themselves, but we all know money overrides shame. Regardless of how much these companies should have some integrity, those weapons are generally counted on this Wiki if I'm not mistaken.

It's probably best to either make a PoC key or list that equipment as equipment they have access to. In the case of Dante he might have sold them to support his stripper habit, but Vergil would have hoarded them and Lady would have kept them too. Convenient, since Dante and Vergil hardly get any new abilities from the weapons, whereas Lady benefits a great deal and helps explain how she fights strong-ish demons without being beaten up and forced to swallow her own boots.

On that note, the revisions you made were reverted, so we should all discuss first and then conclude the thread as a team. Does that sound reasonable?

Sure.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

I don't know,the staff seem to agree with the optional one and i'm about leaning into it too

 

[RedReaper616]

To specifically highlight why I can’t see it as anything more than optional equipment, I’ll break it down per character.

For Vergil, his story is specifically the moment right before his battle with Mundus, with the final battle being the moment right before.

CANONICALLY

Vergil’s available weapons for that fight were ONLY the Yamato, and if you want to stretch it, Yamato and Beowulf. The PoC Weapons Vergil has access to here? That implies Vergil had over two to three DOZEN more than he actually did, as it’s stressed he only had Yamato, and that was the moment Yamato broke. It’s a crucial moment in Vergil’s story because that when he was twisted into the Dark Angel, Nelo Angelo.

Lady, unlike the Demonically Inclined Dante and Vergil, despite seeming to have the same Hammerspace capacity as the rest, canonically cannot summon, gain, or retrieve and dissipate these weapons at the flick of a hand and a flex of Demonic Energy. This means that her ordinary level of equipment, Kalina Ann, unnamed SMGs, a pair of handguns, etc. are all she ever holds and cannot remotely change. So the fact they don’t appear at ALL means they don’t exist for her, but taking this further, assuming she does canonically own these, she almost never keeps them on her person in favor of the weapons she had throughout her character defining journey in DMC3. So, as such, it is STILL Optional Equipment.

The only one feasible here is Dante, but Dante would be the STRANGE and very ODD one out of the trio considering out of the three he’d be the ONLY one to have the RNG-Based Non-Canon Gacha System with CLEAR DISCONNECT to the Narrative as CANON weapons, so if you’re to apply clear and logical thinking to this, Dante PROBABLY isn’t an exception and just coincidentally is the only viable candidate for such to happen.

Also, hi, how are you today?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Vergil’s available weapons for that fight were ONLY the Yamato, and if you want to stretch it, Yamato and Beowulf. The PoC Weapons Vergil has access to here? That implies Vergil had over two to three DOZEN more than he actually did, as it’s stressed he only had Yamato, and that was the moment Yamato broke. It’s a crucial moment in Vergil’s story because that when he was twisted into the Dark Angel, Nelo Angelo.

1) DMC3 came out in 05, PoC is post 2020. Dev's don't have time machine if they even found PoC weapons relevant to retroactively add them.
2) Said secondary weapons even if mentioned would be irrelevant because such weapons aren't given importance, just like any other secondary weapon in older games.
3) All those weapons would be laughablely weaker than Primary weapons anyways, so it's no use having them. Especially in a plot where primary weapon is outright shattered.

No of the above make secondary weapons optional, especially now that we know Beowulf was something Vergil took with him even tho it never appeared. Hammerspace being sly as **** mofo smh.

Lady, unlike the Demonically Inclined Dante and Vergil, despite seeming to have the same Hammerspace capacity as the rest, canonically cannot summon, gain, or retrieve and dissipate these weapons at the flick of a hand and a flex of Demonic Energy. This means that her ordinary level of equipment, Kalina Ann, unnamed SMGs, a pair of handguns, etc. are all she ever holds and cannot remotely change. So the fact they don’t appear at ALL means they don’t exist for her, but taking this further, assuming she does canonically own these, she almost never keeps them on her weapon in favor of the weapons she had throughout her character defining journey in DMC3. So, as such, it is STILL Optional Equipment.

Lady?
You mean the mad girl who fires infinite bullets?, never reloads Kalina Anns even tho it's a single shot?, switches out pistols with a flourish everytime they burn up?
I wonder where the ammunition comes from.....
This chick gets so much wank from Dev's that she is able to match Trish in speed and perform MHS+ speed feats, capable of taking same beating as Urizen which knocked out Trish and didn't die.
She is the most inhuman character in the series despite being human to the point I wonder if there isn't some secret undisclosed plot point regarding her priestess bloodline at work.

Honestly lack of demonic energy is hardly a problem, because if she had it she would surpass everyone and become god tier of the verse.

The only one feasible here is Dante, but Dante would be the STRANGE and very ODD one out of the trio considering out of the three he’d be the ONLY one to have the RNG-Based Non-Canon Gacha System with CLEAR DISCONNECT to the Narrative as CANON weapons, so if you’re to apply clear and logical thinking to this, Dante PROBABLY isn’t an exception and just coincidentally is the only viable candidate for such to happen.

ODD?

Also, hi, how are you today?

I have semester exams tomorrow, but I am far too lax and carefree, it almost scares me.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bump.

 

[RedReaper616]

1) DMC3 came out in 05, PoC is post 2020. Dev's don't have time machine if they even found PoC weapons relevant to retroactively add them.
2) Said secondary weapons even if mentioned would be irrelevant because such weapons aren't given importance, just like any other secondary weapon in older games.
3) All those weapons would be laughablely weaker than Primary weapons anyways, so it's no use having them. Especially in a plot where primary weapon is outright shattered.

No of the above make secondary weapons optional, especially now that we know Beowulf was something Vergil took with him even tho it never appeared. Hammerspace being sly as **** mofo smh.

Except there's no reason to assume Vergil actually used or gained these weapons out of PoC, and it doesn't make sense to assume such when Vergil has always had a fixture on weapons related to Sparda. Yamato and Force Edge/DSS, and Beowulf, which was formed from his power to turn the vanquished into a weapon. (Which he gained from his heritage.)

Lady?
You mean the mad girl who fires infinite bullets?, never reloads Kalina Anns even tho it's a single shot?, switches out pistols with a flourish everytime they burn up?
I wonder where the ammunition comes from.....
This chick gets so much wank from Dev's that she is able to match Trish in speed and perform MHS+ speed feats, capable of taking same beating as Urizen which knocked out Trish and didn't die.
She is the most inhuman character in the series despite being human to the point I wonder if there isn't some secret undisclosed plot point regarding her priestess bloodline at work.

Honestly lack of demonic energy is hardly a problem, because if she had it she would surpass everyone and become god tier of the verse.

It still means that the excuses made for the rest of the cast don't work for her. You can't assume she just has all two dozen on her when for her it is simply prep time based arsenals. Thus, optional equipment.

ODD?

Odd. I just capitalized it all for emphasis.

I have semester exams tomorrow, but I am far too lax and carefree, it almost scares me.

I hope you did well.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It has to be readed and his profile opened

 

[Random-Helper323]

Except there's no reason to assume Vergil actually used or gained these weapons out of PoC

This argument used to be made about Dante's weapons, including abilities like Quicksilver. You know the scene in Dante's Death Battle where he says "haven't used this in a while... Still got it!", yeah that line? That was in response to all the people in the comments section arguing that Dante must have lost Quicksilver or else he'd use it in other games.

and it doesn't make sense to assume such when Vergil has always had a fixture on weapons related to Sparda. Yamato and Force Edge/DSS, and Beowulf, which was formed from his power to turn the vanquished into a weapon. (Which he gained from his heritage.)

This entire section on weapons being related to Sparda and this strange segue about Beowulf being turned into a weapon with power and therefore also fitting relating to Sparda... This seems mostly like an assumption, since Vergil had no problem using the Qliphoth, Nero's Devil Bringer, V's cane, Nightmare, Griffon, Shadow, and more importantly you're literally implying that any weapon not related to Sparda will be unused or decanonized or something, all with nothing to suggest that is the case, and have made some strange excuse to explain Beowulf not being treated that way... Why are you stretching so hard just to disregard these particular weapons as non-canon or unusable? This entire argument is not only a headcanon about Vergil discarding weapons that don't come from Sparda, as well as requiring a very contrived way to make Beowulf fit that description, it's also contradicted by Vergil using other weapons that don't come from Sparda.

It still means that the excuses made for the rest of the cast don't work for her. You can't assume she just has all two dozen on her

She carries multiple handguns and submachine guns, a shotgun, many grenades, infinite bullets, infinite RPG rounds of two different sizes, and can somehow pull the Kalina Ann out of her back pocket, all while wearing a shirt and shorts. And she fires multiple successive shots out of the single shot Kalina Ann.
Even if you argue she's storing them by swallowing them that still wouldn't fly when that collective arsenal is already bigger than she is. It's hammer space, why is this such a problem?

when for her it is simply prep time based arsenals. Thus, optional equipment.

How is it simply prep time based arsenal specifically for her? Because she supposedly can't carry them all at once, even though she has hammer space? Let's calm this down and think. This is circular reasoning. You've literally said she can't carry all the weapons because it's prep time, and it's prep time because she can't carry them all. The entire thing seemingly hinges on the notion that she can't carry all the weapons even though she can apparently stuff the Kalina Ann, a shotgun, numerous pistols and submachine guns, seemingly infinite grenades and seemingly infinite bullets all into a single holster and a pair of shorts. She has hammer space, it's the only explanation.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I haven't read the arguments nor will I read them because this is obvious but the reason why they are optional is because it isn't something you must get to progress through the story, you can't compare it to other games where you do something necessary to progress and get the devil arm.

You have the option to get the weapon or not and just progress with Rebellion till the end, that's why they are "optional weapons"

but besides that those poc weapons come from outside the story in a gacha event, not something you get through the game normally.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I haven't read the arguments nor will I read them because this is obvious but the reason why they are optional is because it isn't something you must get to progress through the story, you can't compare it to other games where you do something necessary to progress and get the devil arm.

You have the option to get the weapon or not and just progress with Rebellion till the end, that's why they are "optional weapons"

but besides that those poc weapons come from outside the story in a gacha event, not something you get through the game normally.

Technically the same is true of getting Kalina Ann back in DMC5, and getting the extra weapons in Bayonetta which you acquire by collecting several hidden items which come together to reward you the weapon. And numerous guns in shooter games, including the rocket launchers from Resident Evil.

 

[RedReaper616]

Technically the same is true of getting Kalina Ann back in DMC5, and getting the extra weapons in Bayonetta which you acquire by collecting several hidden items which come together to reward you the weapon. And numerous guns in shooter games, including the rocket launchers from Resident Evil.

There is a fundamental difference.

One is a secret obtainable item purposely installed by a AAA game to reward players for exploring.

The other is a completely separate earnable that can elude players for years based on an exploitive Gacha practice that also is distinctly separate from the story, like every other Gacha game. Hell, you can't even use those as examples because the game HINTS you can find these weapons to the player versus the gacha system.

 

[RedReaper616]

This argument used to be made about Dante's weapons, including abilities like Quicksilver. You know the scene in Dante's Death Battle where he says "haven't used this in a while... Still got it!", yeah that line? That was in response to all the people in the comments section arguing that Dante must have lost Quicksilver or else he'd use it in other games.

There's a difference between losing an ability you canonically had to a weapon you have never ever had an explicitly DIDN'T have in one of your most IMPORTANT CHARACTER MOMENTS.

This entire section on weapons being related to Sparda and this strange segue about Beowulf being turned into a weapon with power and therefore also fitting relating to Sparda... This seems mostly like an assumption, since Vergil had no problem using the Qliphoth, Nero's Devil Bringer, V's cane, Nightmare, Griffon, Shadow, and more importantly you're literally implying that any weapon not related to Sparda will be unused or decanonized or something, all with nothing to suggest that is the case, and have made some strange excuse to explain Beowulf not being treated that way... Why are you stretching so hard just to disregard these particular weapons as non-canon or unusable? This entire argument is not only a headcanon about Vergil discarding weapons that don't come from Sparda, as well as requiring a very contrived way to make Beowulf fit that description, it's also contradicted by Vergil using other weapons that don't come from Sparda.

Qliphoth was Urizen, who was separate from Vergil's entire mindset. Nero's Devil Bringer was stolen explicitly for Yamato. V has his cane, but he used that out of necessity because he literally was as weak as possible, and again, V is only half of Vergil's entire mind. Nightmare, Griffon, and Shadow are also used only out of necessity. In fact, in Visions of V, V DETESTS having to have familiars at first.

She carries multiple handguns and submachine guns, a shotgun, many grenades, infinite bullets, infinite RPG rounds of two different sizes, and can somehow pull the Kalina Ann out of her back pocket, all while wearing a shirt and shorts. And she fires multiple successive shots out of the single shot Kalina Ann.
Even if you argue she's storing them by swallowing them that still wouldn't fly when that collective arsenal is already bigger than she is. It's hammer space, why is this such a problem?

This is valid.

How is it simply prep time based arsenal specifically for her? Because she supposedly can't carry them all at once, even though she has hammer space? Let's calm this down and think. This is circular reasoning. You've literally said she can't carry all the weapons because it's prep time, and it's prep time because she can't carry them all. The entire thing seemingly hinges on the notion that she can't carry all the weapons even though she can apparently stuff the Kalina Ann, a shotgun, numerous pistols and submachine guns, seemingly infinite grenades and seemingly infinite bullets all into a single holster and a pair of shorts. She has hammer space, it's the only explanation.

No? I meant to re-iterate what I said prior, not go in circles. And I said it has to be prep time explicitly because the catch all solution earlier in thread was simply "they're characters that can dematerialize and rematerialize weapons at will, maybe they just do it off-camera."

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The other is a completely separate earnable that can elude players for years based on an exploitive Gacha practice that also is distinctly separate from the story, like every other Gacha game. Hell, you can't even use those as examples because the game HINTS you can find these weapons to the player versus the gacha system

What can be luck for one player to easily obtain a weapon can be fickle for other player and elude them entirely. Or you pay money, just like you do for Red Cavelier and certain devil breakers. But all of it is available one way or the other.

What ultimately matters is completely 100% maxxed out character at peak of thier capabilities and arsenal as provided by the game.

 

[Random-Helper323]

There is a fundamental difference.

One is a secret obtainable item purposely installed by a AAA game to reward players for exploring.

The other is a completely separate earnable that can elude players for years based on an exploitive Gacha practice that also is distinctly separate from the story, like every other Gacha game. Hell, you can't even use those as examples because the game HINTS you can find these weapons to the player versus the gacha system.

I think micro transactions are shit too, but this is splitting hairs. And the weapons in Bayonetta aren't hinted at either.

By the reasoning you're using, anything that is added by buying DLC or loot boxes isn't applicable, which would include a fair few of Nero's Devil Breakers. Sometimes the DLC weapons are clearly not valid, like in Drakengard 3 where Zero can wield Caim's sword, a sword we know is specifically forged for Caim who wasn't born until centuries after Zero died. But otherwise should we really assume all that stuff is inapplicable?

There's a difference between losing an ability you canonically had to a weapon you have never ever had an explicitly DIDN'T have in one of your most IMPORTANT CHARACTER MOMENTS.

The problem is you haven't really demonstrated that the characters never possessed the PoC weapons, you're just saying they never did.

Qliphoth was Urizen, who was separate from Vergil's entire mindset. Nero's Devil Bringer was stolen explicitly for Yamato. V has his cane, but he used that out of necessity because he literally was as weak as possible, and again, V is only half of Vergil's entire mind. Nightmare, Griffon, and Shadow are also used only out of necessity. In fact, in Visions of V, V DETESTS having to have familiars at first.

This still doesn't prove that Vergil would decanonize every other weapon because it isn't from Sparda. That entire assertion was a big reach with no solid foundation. Vergil could have an entire arsenal literally made all from Sparda (he already has Beowulf which isn't from Sparda), and it still wouldn't prove he'd refuse any weapon not from Sparda.

And I said it has to be prep time explicitly because the catch all solution earlier in thread was simply "they're characters that can dematerialize and rematerialize weapons at will, maybe they just do it off-camera."

Lady can pull an arsenal collectively larger than her own body out of nowhere, and without reloading can fire successive rocket propelled grenades from a rocket launcher that visibly only contains one rocket propelled grenade. And those RPG rounds are big enough for Dante to surf on. Is Lady keeping them all in her butt?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Is Lady keeping them all in her butt?

That's the most rad butt plug ever

 

[RedReaper616]

I think micro transactions are shit too, but this is splitting hairs. And the weapons in Bayonetta aren't hinted at either.

In the first game you get a weapon near basically free with obvious record placements for the player to find, and the Rodin hints to you that this process of weapon finding exists for a lot more than just the first you get.

By the reasoning you're using, anything that is added by buying DLC or loot boxes isn't applicable, which would include a fair few of Nero's Devil Breakers. Sometimes the DLC weapons are clearly not valid, like in Drakengard 3 where Zero can wield Caim's sword, a sword we know is specifically forged for Caim who wasn't born until centuries after Zero died. But otherwise should we really assume all that stuff is inapplicable?

Official DLC =/= 100% optional Microtransaction system.

The problem is you haven't really demonstrated that the characters never possessed the PoC weapons, you're just saying they never did.

Vergil explicitly utilized Yamato for that fight. We see this in Visions of V, where the only displayed weapon is Yamato, DMC3, where his only weapon displayed is Yamato, Before the Nightmare, where the only weapon TALKED about is Yamato, etc.

This still doesn't prove that Vergil would decanonize every other weapon because it isn't from Sparda. That entire assertion was a big reach with no solid foundation. Vergil could have an entire arsenal literally made all from Sparda (he already has Beowulf which isn't from Sparda), and it still wouldn't prove he'd refuse any weapon not from Sparda.

Okay, let's say Vergil did take them. How does this contradict the fact he explicitly only used Yamato for the battle in the DW?

Lady can pull an arsenal collectively larger than her own body out of nowhere, and without reloading can fire successive rocket propelled grenades from a rocket launcher that visibly only contains one rocket propelled grenade. And those RPG rounds are big enough for Dante to surf on. Is Lady keeping them all in her butt?

Valid, but again, I was refuting the counterargument of them all using DE to make their weapons disappear and reappear.

 

[Random-Helper323]

In the first game you get a weapon near basically free with obvious record placements for the player to find, and the Rodin hints to you that this process of weapon finding exists for a lot more than just the first you get.

You still have to go searching in levels to get it all.

Official DLC =/= 100% optional Microtransaction system.

One could easily argue that some DLC is 100% optional too. And what about other weapons added that way? With modern games being the way they are I'm sure other games have weapons hidden as micro transaction only. The weapons are in the game and are a part of the characters' arsenals.

Vergil explicitly utilized Yamato for that fight. We see this in Visions of V, where the only displayed weapon is Yamato, DMC3, where his only weapon displayed is Yamato, Before the Nightmare, where the only weapon TALKED about is Yamato, etc.

Dante always uses Rebellion/Sparda/DSD and Ebony and Ivory in cutscenes. Does that mean he ate all his other weapons right after getting them in the cutscenes he gets them in? Does it mean all the other weapons are non-canon and all those weapon cutscenes were just Dante getting high and hallucinating the whole thing?

By the reasoning you're using Vergil's other weapons like Beowulf and Mirage Edge are also non-canon. If not being referred to or used in cutscenes afterwards is proof they can't be accessed or never even existed, there's no reason that can be applied to the PoC weapons and not Beowulf and Mirage Edge. And even without that, you're trying to prove a negative. You're trying to say that because Vergil doesn't use those weapons in later games he therefore doesn't have them, but that isn't how proof works.

Let's use an analogy. Let's say you're trying to prove a guy doesn't speak French, and towards that end you provide lots of recorded evidence of him speaking English. Let's say you then record every moment of his life with hidden cameras for forty straight years, and in all that time he only speaks English. This would actually be far stronger than what you have on Vergil, but it still hasn't proved the guy can't speak French. All it's proven is that he spoke only English for forty years, not that he can't speak any other language.

Okay, let's say Vergil did take them. How does this contradict the fact he explicitly only used Yamato for the battle in the DW?

How does Vergil using his strongest weapon, Yamato, prove he didn't have any others? Dante didn't use Ifrit or Alastor during his fight with Mundus, because if you try to equip them the game says you won't stand a chance against Mundus with that weapon.

Valid, but again, I was refuting the counterargument of them all using DE to make their weapons disappear and reappear.

Lady can breathe near the demon world when a similar situation turned other humans into demons and trees. Lady can pull a bazooka out of her shorts. Lady can somehow store thousands or even infinite bullets in a single holster. All while she is related to a priestess that had something to do with Sparda. I'm not sure she doesn't have demonic energy.

Besides, hammer space is hammer space. Why does it matter whether summoning is always going on?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Official DLC =/= 100% optional Microtransaction system.

DLC items are also optional. Either you want to buy is or don't.

Real world economics has zero impact on whether a item exists in lore/world/verse.

Vergil explicitly utilized Yamato for that fight. We see this in Visions of V, where the only displayed weapon is Yamato, DMC3, where his only weapon displayed is Yamato, Before the Nightmare, where the only weapon TALKED about is Yamato, etc.

So?
That's every secondary weapon ever for any character. Like literally 90% weapons from OG games.
Vergil's preference of Yamato is not a proof of other weapons not existing.

If I like oranges, doesn't mean I dislike apples.

Also for umpteenth time, production timeline vs chronological timeline.

Okay, let's say Vergil did take them. How does this contradict the fact he explicitly only used Yamato for the battle in the DW?

Why would he use anything else against Mundus?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Anyway, Gilver and I both firmly disagree with treating the weapons as non-canon, and with treating them as weapons the characters don't have access to. However, RedReaper seems convinced the weapons aren't even canon, and thinks that if they are they're not equal to all of DMC's numerous other secondary weapons.

So can we try to reach some kind of compromise? I'm thinking we try to reach some middle ground so we're not held up forever. Let's see how each character can be treated.

Dante:

First off with Dante, he has so many weapons already, almost none of them ever used again. With that being the case, can we at least agree to treat his PoC weapons as being typical of his extra weapons throughout the series?

Vergil:

Vergil has the same ability to store things but has fewer weapons, and unlike Dante he keeps using Beowulf much later. Although he never uses Beowulf in cutscenes, and PoC was literally made after DMC5, so it's hard for his PoC weapons to appear in any other games.

Lady:

Lady never uses her shotgun in cutscenes either, so dismissing her PoC weapons as meaningless is still wrong if you ask me, but since she always seems to use the same guns, an argument could be made for her other weapons not being her standard loadout. We did see her collect her Kalina Ann in the anime after all. Although again, PoC was made after DMC5, so her not having PoC weapons in other games isn't really proof of anything. There's also the fact that demons resist just about every hax ability, including her weapons (stronger demons would resist the soul manipulation and other hax of weaker demons and demonic weapons, rendering the hax useless against higher level demons anyway) so it's possible the Kalina Ann is still the better weapon against them via superior power.

I can't help but think that looking at weapons from this most recent game and calling them non-canon because they didn't appear in games made years earlier is pretty silly.

RedReaper, can we at least start with agreeing on Dante, who in my opinion is the easiest to decide on since he has a full collection of weapons he rarely uses but has easy access to?

 

[RedReaper616]

Anyway, Gilver and I both firmly disagree with treating the weapons as non-canon, and with treating them as weapons the characters don't have access to. However, RedReaper seems convinced the weapons aren't even canon, and thinks that if they are they're not equal to all of DMC's numerous other secondary weapons.

So can we try to reach some kind of compromise? I'm thinking we try to reach some middle ground so we're not held up forever. Let's see how each character can be treated.

Dante:

First off with Dante, he has so many weapons already, almost none of them ever used again. With that being the case, can we at least agree to treat his PoC weapons as being typical of his extra weapons throughout the series?

Vergil:

Vergil has the same ability to store things but has fewer weapons, and unlike Dante he keeps using Beowulf much later. Although he never uses Beowulf in cutscenes, and PoC was literally made after DMC5, so it's hard for his PoC weapons to appear in any other games.

Lady:

Lady never uses her shotgun in cutscenes either, so dismissing her PoC weapons as meaningless is still wrong if you ask me, but since she always seems to use the same guns, an argument could be made for her other weapons not being her standard loadout. We did see her collect her Kalina Ann in the anime after all. Although again, PoC was made after DMC5, so her not having PoC weapons in other games isn't really proof of anything. There's also the fact that demons resist just about every hax ability, including her weapons (stronger demons would resist the soul manipulation and other hax of weaker demons and demonic weapons, rendering the hax useless against higher level demons anyway) so it's possible the Kalina Ann is still the better weapon against them via superior power.

I can't help but think that looking at weapons from this most recent game and calling them non-canon because they didn't appear in games made years earlier is pretty silly.

Eh. it's not that they don't appear in other games that ruffles my feathers. I said this before. It's that it's a clearly distinct Gacha system from the gameplay. It'd be like calling the DBL player chosen teams canon despite the fact it's evidently not (This is not a false equivalence. They perform the same tasks and have the same level of relevance in the main story. Hell, some of the weapons ARE sentient, so this is an apt description). And while other games do have weapons not mentioned in story or in cutscene, every example you've brought are false equivalences, and almost none actually compare to what exists here: A player choice Gacha system that functions on a loadout based set of weapons able to be used that has no impact on story. There's a difference between rewarding a skilled player with a neat feature or ability and an RNG based earning system that cannot be directly tied to player progression, a method that is optional in a way none of those mentioned examples are. With Bayonetta, you can simply not find them or ignore the fact this exists, but it pretty clearly informed to the player in an introductory cutscene that Rodin will give you weapons if you give him items. Thus you can just easily assume Bayonetta found them and gained them, as it, let me REITERATE, informs the player that will occur if she finds more. That is it. That is your disadvantage. Your disadvantage in PoC is not being able to gain them at any point unless you're lucky...in a system distinct from the main meat of the game. Said luck is also stylized as an RPG-like set of functions, (customizable), which is distinctly in our rules made to be Optional Equipment.

You cannot compare the Book of Demons, standard equipment for PoC Dante, as he gains and uses it throughout the story, which has it's own effects on gameplay with specific tabs made for informing you of which Demons exist in game, changing Dante's stats via Runes, and it's own stated canonical abilities, to the Gacha system. You can't compare it to Dante's main weapons in DMC5. Or DMC4. Or DMC3. Or DMC2. Or DMC1. Especially considering it'd make less sense to compare PoC to completely other game series with their own popular mechanics of earning items for player progression, (AAA games, no less), instead of other DMC games whilst PoC explicitly states Capcom supervised story and game development (and thus would logically follow the same mould...except PoC doesn't, thus they are notably different).

Also, again, the rules state that if something is fully customizable, such as an RPG character, or in this case RPG-Level customizable weapons, all of those functions are to be listed as Optional Equipment.

• If a character lacks a canonical set of equipment, their profile should make note of this. Examples of such characters would be player customizable RPG characters such as Chosen Undead, profiles detailing a type of being as opposed to an individual character like that of the Adeptus Astartes. Such characters should have their items all listed as optional, and people who wish to use them in versus threads should preferably specify what items shall be made available to them.

In the case of PoC Dante, he has Rebellion alongside E&I for main story. Then he has a player customizable loadout that has it's own status effects, changes to the move list, etc. Actually, if anything the weapons aren't like DBL Teams. They're like Shallot's customizable Special Move. He can get them, we count them, it's a mechanic unrelated to story, and connected to the Gacha System, but it's very clearly not a feature Shallot has control over, and further it's meant to be dynamic and ever changing because Shallot, like Dante in PoC, has no "main" set of weapons outside of his default-Wild Cannon/Rebellion-E&I. The rest is a customizable set of features. That said,

RedReaper, can we at least start with agreeing on Dante, who in my opinion is the easiest to decide on since he has a full collection of weapons he rarely uses but has easy access to?

Sure, I agree Dante is viable here, but I dislike the idea of equating the plot-separate gacha system with the fully story supported as well as evidently stated weaponry of other games and the main artifact of PoC.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It'd be like calling the DBL player chosen teams canon despite the fact it's evidently not (This is not a false equivalence. They perform the same tasks and have the same level of relevance in the main story. Hell, some of the weapons ARE sentient, so this is an apt description).

Team members aren't weapons though, so it's not exactly an apt comparison at all. There's a difference between characters being involved in the battle who weren't as opposed to weapons the character can gain access to in the game and have. You don't literally carry team-mates and store them in hammer space.

And while other games do have weapons not mentioned in story or in cutscene, every example you've brought are false equivalences, and almost none actually compare to what exists here: A player choice Gacha system that functions on a loadout based set of weapons able to be used that has no impact on story. There's a difference between rewarding a skilled player with a neat feature or ability and an RNG based earning system that cannot be directly tied to player progression, a method that is optional in a way none of those mentioned examples are.

This is still splitting hairs, to be honest. Both of these things involve a player being able to attain extra weapons by doing something extra that you can do in the game.

With Bayonetta, you can simply not find them or ignore the fact this exists, but it pretty clearly informed to the player in an introductory cutscene that Rodin will give you weapons if you give him items. Thus you can just easily assume Bayonetta found them and gained them, as it, let me REITERATE, informs the player that will occur if she finds more.

The gacha system also informs you that you'll get things if you play it. The problem with taking weapons from the base game and saying that they aren't canon or something is that it's a harsh rule that's not likely to be applied to any other characters. People tried to say the Bangle of Time was non-canon because Dante only gets it by completing a side mission, for example.

That is it. That is your disadvantage. Your disadvantage in PoC is not being able to gain them at any point unless you're lucky...in a system distinct from the main meat of the game. Said luck is also stylized as an RPG-like set of functions, (customizable), which is distinctly in our rules made to be Optional Equipment.

Technically Dante's other weapons are also customisable features, at least in DMC3. The examples listed in the rules list characters that have no canonical equipment set at all, because the player can choose from an enormous range of equipment. And none of them have hammer space that allows them to carry all at once, and none have a proven history in other games of carrying loads of weapons all at once.

You cannot compare the Book of Demons, standard equipment for PoC Dante, as he gains and uses it throughout the story, which has it's own effects on gameplay with specific tabs made for informing you of which Demons exist in game, changing Dante's stats via Runes, and it's own stated canonical abilities, to the Gacha system. You can't compare it to Dante's main weapons in DMC5. Or DMC4. Or DMC3. Or DMC2. Or DMC1. Especially considering it'd make less sense to compare PoC to completely other game series with their own popular mechanics of earning items for player progression

Isn't the gacha system its own mechanic for progression, just a predatory one? Purchasing pay-to-win DLC also breaks progression, but the weapons are usually still canon.

(AAA games, no less)

Why does this matter?

instead of other DMC games whilst PoC explicitly states Capcom supervised story and game development (and thus would logically follow the same mould...except PoC doesn't, thus they are notably different).

The reason for pointing to other games is because this isn't about how DMC usually does things, it's about how weapons that you can get in the base game are treated when they have no cutscenes or references. Honestly, the fact that you get them through gacha is irrelevant, in a way, because it's no different from getting paid DLC. The items are still just as official. Just because it's pay-to-win and predatory doesn't change that the items are official items available within the game itself, which have in-game bios and everything.

Also, again, the rules state that if something is fully customizable, such as an RPG character, or in this case RPG-Level customizable weapons, all of those functions are to be listed as Optional Equipment.

I don't know if we can compare weapons Dante can get and basically keep in hammer space, to an RPG character who can wear every armour piece and carry every weapon in the entire game, all while not having hammer space. The Chosen Undead can only carry so much, only uses one weapon rather than being intended to switch freely between them like DMC characters always are, and can certainly only wear one suit of armour at a time.

In the case of PoC Dante, he has Rebellion alongside E&I for main story. Then he has a player customizable loadout that has it's own status effects, changes to the move list, etc. Actually, if anything the weapons aren't like DBL Teams. They're like Shallot's customizable Special Move. He can get them, we count them, it's a mechanic unrelated to story, and connected to the Gacha System, but it's very clearly not a feature Shallot has control over, and further it's meant to be dynamic and ever changing because Shallot, like Dante in PoC, has no "main" set of weapons outside of his default-Wild Cannon/Rebellion-E&I. The rest is a customizable set of features.

The issue is, you said a very key thing there, stating Shallot has no control over it. Dante and the others have hammer space and always carry lots of weapons.

That said,

Sure, I agree Dante is viable here, but I dislike the idea of equating the plot-separate gacha system with the fully story supported as well as evidently stated weaponry of other games and the main artifact of PoC.

The entire issue you have comes from it being gacha. Problem is, with games like these other items can often be attained in other ways, such as by completing side missions and challenges, or by buying them with in-game currency (or real currency, because... predatory), and generally if the character can believably have all of them via hammer space, and canonically carries lots of stuff anyway, it's not unreasonable to just give them their full arsenal from the game.

Dante's page lists all of his weapons and items as standard equipment, including devil hearts for the amulet and even things like holy water and untouchable, probably because a devil star appears in his desk drawer in the manga, and because he can and should carry them at all times. It's strange that you're so determined to treat these weapons differently from literally every other item in DMC. You even tried to say they were non-canon.

Why make that gallery if you wanted the weapons to be non-canon and meaningless anyway?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Eh. it's not that they don't appear in other games that ruffles my feathers. I said this before. It's that it's a clearly distinct Gacha system from the gameplay.

Gacha is just a monetization system dude, no different than paid dlc. Or worse a paywall inside a game. As long as you can acquire it, it is allowed.

It'd be like calling the DBL player chosen teams canon despite the fact it's evidently not (This is not a false equivalence. They perform the same tasks and have the same level of relevance in the main story. Hell, some of the weapons ARE sentient, so this is an apt description).

This is couldn't be further from a logical equivalence.
Buddy, you don't carry around party members in your pocket. You don't store them in your hammerspace.
They are their characters of their own free will. You just summon them or enlist some of them out of entire network of your allies.

Weapons being sentient means jackshit because they don't have any agency.

Also this is completely missing the reason members of party are under optional resources. In a standard rpg game you are only allowed only 2-4 team mates or summons out of buttload of them. The mere act of acquiring them can be an excercise in completing optional quests or character acquisition gacha. Whatever the reserves of your allies maybe, you can only take limited in battle because they aren't objects that can be stored in pockets. You aren't an owner but a team lead at best.

This is completely opposite to the mechanics of characters using weapons, especially when your hammerspace has no limit.
This isn't Call of Duty or Counter Strike where you have legitimately limited slots of weapons and ammunition space due to an appeal to realism. Lady who is the closest point of comparisons to the games I mentioned doesn't even follow those rules. She just Infinitely carries whatever she wants, being human be damned.

And while other games do have weapons not mentioned in story or in cutscene, every example you've brought are false equivalences, and almost none actually compare to what exists here: A player choice Gacha system that functions on a loadout based set of weapons able to be used that has no impact on story.

Optional equipment is optional equipment, whether it is dependent on exploration, crafting, buying a dlc or paywall or spending IRL money to buy in game currency or spend your in-game/IRL currency on lootboxxes.

Ultimately they are optional one way or another, and no weapon aside from primary weapons are ever relevant to story.

Also this line of thought leads to a very slippery slope. While many of the OG weapons and abilities are clearly not optional and even acquired during story and presented with a flashy introduction, what stops many of them from being out of character?
When has Dante used any of his secondary weapons beyond Reb/E&I/Cayote? When has Dante used his abilities like Quicksilver or Doppelganger outside of introduction once.
When has Dante used any of the items like Smell of Fear and Bangle of Time or heart amulets etc? They are more or less irrelevant to story and Dante never wielded them outside of a single irrelevant cutscenes, many of the items not even possessing that.

This line of thought can be turned around and used right back on you by many detractors out there. So let's be careful here.

There's a difference between rewarding a skilled player with a neat feature or ability and an RNG based earning system that cannot be directly tied to player progression, a method that is optional in a way none of those mentioned examples are.

You are making a Meta arguement here. Just because paying real money is involved doesn't make acquisition of weapons any less legitimate.
That's the reality of 21st century video games, especially games which are free.
They have to recover their costs through some means, if we aren't spending 60-70$ or any even a discounted price for freemium big AA/ small AAA game, how are developers supposed to earn money? While I have no love for monetization schemes of newer generation games, I also understand it's the only way for Dev's to make profit on games and recover their costs.

And skill has never been a metric by which we measure whether any weapon should be optional or not.
Imagine if you are a scrub player, and you didn't even manage to compelete the campaign, let alone unlock every weapon, style and ability, by this logic lots of resources would be locked away from character.
Now you may counter this with logic such as """"lore bro and we look at 100% completion, supermaxxed out character which is the best version of themselves"""
And my only response would be "How is that any different from paying real money?" and achieving a similar result in a freemium game?
If it's the lore that's ultimately important and not the gameplay and game design and monetization, then why even make such arbitrary distinction between skill based/momentary based game acquisition?

Harsh reality is pay to win has infiltrated every part of gaming industry economics, and it's here to stay whether we like it or not. Rather than looking at versus debating and power scaling side of verse with such a meta and 4th wall lens.... Why not just stick with lore?

That is it. That is your disadvantage. Your disadvantage in PoC is not being able to gain them at any point unless you're lucky...in a system distinct from the main meat of the game. Said luck is also stylized as an RPG-like set of functions, (customizable), which is distinctly in our rules made to be Optional Equipment.

It's not a hard and fast rule, and let's not forget context is important.
And luck has never been a metric for determination of optional or standard equipment.

You can't compare it to Dante's main weapons in DMC5. Or DMC4. Or DMC3. Or DMC2. Or DMC1. Especially considering it'd make less sense to compare PoC to completely other game series with their own popular mechanics of earning items for player progression, (AAA games, no less), instead of other DMC games whilst PoC explicitly states Capcom supervised story and game development (and thus would logically follow the same mould...except PoC doesn't, thus they are notably different).

What relevance is the budget and platform or developer company of the game?
Like are we forgetting lore is the only measuring stick we use to determine what goes into profile and under what nature?

Like PoC being made by some different company or being double A budget project is zero consequence or relevance here. You are once again involving real world factors and meta arguements which is not how things work here.

• If a character lacks a canonical set of equipment, their profile should make note of this. Examples of such characters would be player customizable RPG characters such as Chosen Undead, profiles detailing a type of being as opposed to an individual character like that of the Adeptus Astartes. Such characters should have their items all listed as optional, and people who wish to use them in versus threads should preferably specify what items shall be made available to them.

Well the weapons aren't non canonical in the first place. Neither is set or Inventory limitations any problem for our franchise.
So this is literally useless here.

In the case of PoC Dante, he has Rebellion alongside E&I for main story. Then he has a player customizable loadout that has it's own status effects, changes to the move list, etc. Actually, if anything the weapons aren't like DBL Teams. They're like Shallot's customizable Special Move. He can get them, we count them, it's a mechanic unrelated to story, and connected to the Gacha System, but it's very clearly not a feature Shallot has control over, and further it's meant to be dynamic and ever changing because Shallot, like Dante in PoC, has no "main" set of weapons outside of his default-Wild Cannon/Rebellion-E&I. The rest is a customizable set of features. That said,

And that's where the problem lies.
Not only is it a completely bad equivalence involving card powers and summons and turned based combat system.
But DMC has no such limits, our hammerspaces are infinite and players are in lore capable of carrying all their stuff inside themselves. There is no luck involved in drawing a weapon out of your inventory.
It's a matter choice, a choice imposed due to limited controls of mobile screen User Interface. Something that has zero relevance to lore.

Sure, I agree Dante is viable here, but I dislike the idea of equating the plot-separate gacha system with the fully story supported as well as evidently stated weaponry of other games and the main artifact of PoC.

Why is it plot seperate? When literally the entire game and all it's provisions are brimming with lore?

You are literally conflating monetization design decisions of a company with inverse plot lore.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

In short a lot of your arguements hinge on meta arguements about game design and monetization practices of a real life company.
And zero to do with lore.
If you had said something like "Equipment should be optional because Dante stores his weapons in Enzo's shop" then I might I have been more receptive of your proposition.

But I don't like doing wrong things for wrong reasons.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Also this line of thought leads to a very slippery slope. While many of the OG weapons and abilities are clearly not optional and even acquired during story and presented with a flashy introduction, what stops many of them from being out of character?
When has Dante used any of his secondary weapons beyond Reb/E&I/Cayote? When has Dante used his abilities like Quicksilver or Doppelganger outside of introduction once.
When has Dante used any of the items like Smell of Fear and Bangle of Time or heart amulets etc? They are more or less irrelevant to story and Dante never wielded them outside of a single irrelevant cutscenes, many of the items not even possessing that.

This line of thought can be turned around and used right back on you by many detractors out there. So let's be careful here.

The same line of reasoning could also be used against many video game verses, including but not limited to Bayonetta, Nier/Drakengard, Metal Gear, God of War, Ninja Gaiden/Dead or Alive, Halo, Doom, Resident Evil, Call of Duty, pretty much any game with multiple available weapons.

Although we all know the detractors would only want to apply that kind of rule to DMC, don't we? One rule for every other verse and another harsher one for DMC, that's how things are for those types.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Weapons being sentient means jackshit because they don't have any agency.

Now I think of it, Agni and Rudra are also sentient, and Devil Arms in general still might be considering what they are. Balrog became a Devil Arm and promised to return and fight Dante again.

In short a lot of your arguements hinge on meta arguements about game design and monetization practices of a real life company.
And zero to do with lore.

That is basically the crux of the gacha argument.

If you had said something like "Equipment should be optional because Dante stores his weapons in Enzo's shop" then I might I have been more receptive of your proposition.

I wouldn't agree with that either. He has easy access to them, and can technically get them any time he likes from any distance if you think about it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Now I think of it, Agni and Rudra are also sentient, and Devil Arms in general still might be considering what they are. Balrog became a Devil Arm and promised to return and fight Dante again.

I mean Nevan is a blatant example of that.
In PoC she literally comes back to wreck havoc.
Although in this case Dante is carrying around characters in his back pocket instead of same respect as teammates.
Lel.

I wouldn't agree with that either. He has easy access to them, and can technically get them any time he likes from any distance if you think about it.

I know, just saying one being lore arguement is much more sound than a meta arguement, relatively speaking.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ninja Gaiden

This reminds me.
In NG3 before Razors Edge, weapons were actual paid dlc. Not kidding.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This reminds me.
In NG3 before Razors Edge, weapons were actual paid dlc. Not kidding.

Lots of games do that. They get you to buy the game and then buy the DLC. And then they intentionally make their game harder to mod so you can't have your own DLC. They're predatory.

I mean Nevan is a blatant example of that.
In PoC she literally comes back to wreck havoc.
Although in this case Dante is carrying around characters in his back pocket instead of same respect as teammates.
Lel.

In a very large back pocket that can somehow contain a motorcycle, two rocket launchers, a huge sword, a shotgun, and infinite ammunition. Talk about the ultimate smuggler.

I know, just saying one being lore arguement is much more sound than a meta arguement, relatively speaking.

True, though it's still not a solid one.

 

[RedReaper616]

My argument being in regards to meta or lore doesn’t change the validity of the statements being made.

In fact, I’d argue trying to argue that I need a lore based argument is the ultimate self-murder, since there’s no actual lore based answer for these weapons actually existing apart of Dante’s Arsenal and not the clear, out of his control, meta/player based dynamic system.

Where is the lore based answer on Dante using a single one of these weapons? Don’t answer, because it doesn’t exist. At best you can Headcanon he’s summoning and desummoning them, or generic hammerspace, but I think it’s disingenuous to say they naturally have these weapons at their beck and call when they don’t—Even in PoC.

And again, some of these weapons have specific lore that likely would affect the story. For example, Ebony Awakening would’ve immediately had all Demons lose the will to fight and Vergil would’ve walked unchallenged. Dante’s Indestructible and Nirvana Heavenly Gans would’ve purified the Demons. Some of these weapons ARE indeed sentient, and have explicit statements as to consciously judge who they attack, like the Flaming Inquisitor, or the Sound of the Demon, which constantly tries to feed on Souls.

It also is blatantly a fully customizable loadout. It’s not just the weapons that go into the loadout, either. It’s the Weapons, Devil Cards, Runes, Character (each has their own passives), Book of Demons Passive (each boss has their own passive that changes the dynamic of your loadout.) Weapons are one part of a greater whole, and that part, as well as whole, is basically Dante adopting the RPG setup.

So regardless as to how you want to spin it, it’s Optional Equipment.

That said, I’m tired of arguing this point in general, because I didn’t make this sandbox and CRT to get caught up on a really minor nitpick that, at least for me, doesn’t make sense to argue for.

 

[Random-Helper323]

My argument being in regards to meta or lore doesn’t change the validity of the statements being made.

In fact, I’d argue trying to argue that I need a lore based argument is the ultimate self-murder, since there’s no actual lore based answer for these weapons actually existing apart of Dante’s Arsenal and not the clear, out of his control, meta/player based dynamic system.

Where is the lore based answer on Dante using a single one of these weapons? Don’t answer, because it doesn’t exist. At best you can Headcanon he’s summoning and desummoning them, or generic hammerspace, but I think it’s disingenuous to say they naturally have these weapons at their beck and call when they don’t—Even in PoC.

This still comes around as something that can be a slippery slope to apply to all DMC's weapons, and many weapons in other games. The things is, if the weapon is available in the game, you need a solid reason why not to use it, not the other way around.

And again, some of these weapons have specific lore that likely would affect the story. For example, Ebony Awakening would’ve immediately had all Demons lose the will to fight and Vergil would’ve walked unchallenged. Dante’s Indestructible and Nirvana Heavenly Gans would’ve purified the Demons.

The problem with such hax is that you end up in a situation where demons above a certain level resist the hax, and the ones below it are canonically too weak to need the hax for. It's similar to the other hax in DMC.

Some of these weapons ARE indeed sentient, and have explicit statements as to consciously judge who they attack, like the Flaming Inquisitor, or the Sound of the Demon, which constantly tries to feed on Souls.

That actually sounds more like a reason to use Rebellion over them most of the time rather than a reason for them to be non-canon.

It also is blatantly a fully customizable loadout. It’s not just the weapons that go into the loadout, either. It’s the Weapons, Devil Cards, Runes, Character (each has their own passives), Book of Demons Passive (each boss has their own passive that changes the dynamic of your loadout.) Weapons are one part of a greater whole, and that part, as well as whole, is basically Dante adopting the RPG setup.

All of this still has the problem that all of these characters have hammer space and can realistically carry all of these things at once.

a really minor nitpick that, at least for me, doesn’t make sense to argue for.

Here's the thing. The reason Gilver and I are so insistent about this is twofold, firstly we think hammer space and the typical way weapons are treated in DMC, and the fact these weapons are available in the base game, is enough reason to not dismiss them as non-canon or inaccessible.

We also recognise that this is a dangerous slippery slope you're trying to start. If these things are all wrongly treated as non-canon or optional, then people can use it to argue the other weapons are as well, and all you'd have to counter it is "gacha", "AAA games", "customisable", and hate to break it to you, you'd lose. Only chance you'd have is that DMC has a long tradition of all these weapons. Keeping in mind it also has a long history of being downplayed.

With the weapons and items of DMC then wrongly listed as optional or even non-canon (people have dismissed the Bangle of Time as non-canon before), the next step will be abilities. With you having argued the weapons of PoC aren't canon, it also creates a slippery slope for arguing the game itself isn't canon. Next up, by calling the canonicity of official DMC material and even in-game items into question, it also leaves people open to questioning the canonicity of additional material such as novels and guides and perhaps even in-game bios. Keeping in mind that such a brutal attack would definitely revitalise the detractors and demoralise the supporters. And DMC haters have a history of pushing for obviously unreasonable things and still getting what they want or close to it.

In short, what you're pushing for could lead to all kinds of harsh rules and standards being imposed on DMC which of course would never be imposed on any other verse, and if the harshest of detractors had their way (which might happen if you create an opening like this) DMC would be tier 9 or 10. It isn't a minor issue at all. That's why Gilver and myself are unwilling to simply let this happen. It's literally better that the weapons don't get counted than they get treated as non-canon or inaccessible.

 

[RedReaper616]

The problem with such hax is that you end up in a situation where demons above a certain level resist the hax, and the ones below it are canonically too weak to need the hax for. It's similar to the other hax in DMC.

Sure, except the fact some have explicit entries, like the Sound of Doom having taken Mourning Banshee Souls.

That actually sounds more like a reason to use Rebellion over them most of the time rather than a reason for them to be non-canon.

Convenient.

All of this still has the problem that all of these characters have hammer space and can realistically carry all of these things at once.

Even if I agree they realistically could, it still falls within optional equipment.

Here's the thing. The reason Gilver and I are so insistent about this is twofold, firstly we think hammer space and the typical way weapons are treated in DMC, and the fact these weapons are available in the base game, is enough reason to not dismiss them as non-canon or inaccessible.

Actually, when I initially used the phrase canon I was intending for it to read as Dante doesn’t have a main weapon set.

“…but technically are not ‘canon’ additions to a character's arsenal.” As in, Dante never uses these weapons outside the player’s intent. I started using the word more frequently and with the usual definition in mind simply because I was getting frustrated, (due to fact in my opinion we’re arguing over something really dumb. Not as shade thrown towards you, but as a matter of something, at least for me, relatively minor), but that’s my b.

We also recognise that this is a dangerous slippery slope you're trying to start. If these things are all wrongly treated as non-canon or optional, then people can use it to argue the other weapons are as well, and all you'd have to counter it is "gacha", "AAA games", "customisable", and hate to break it to you, you'd lose. Only chance you'd have is that DMC has a long tradition of all these weapons. Keeping in mind it also has a long history of being downplayed.

With the weapons and items of DMC then wrongly listed as optional or even non-canon (people have dismissed the Bangle of Time as non-canon before), the next step will be abilities. With you having argued the weapons of PoC aren't canon, it also creates a slippery slope for arguing the game itself isn't canon. Next up, by calling the canonicity of official DMC material and even in-game items into question, it also leaves people open to questioning the canonicity of additional material such as novels and guides and perhaps even in-game bios. Keeping in mind that such a brutal attack would definitely revitalise the detractors and demoralise the supporters. And DMC haters have a history of pushing for obviously unreasonable things and still getting what they want or close to it.

In short, what you're pushing for could lead to all kinds of harsh rules and standards being imposed on DMC which of course would never be imposed on any other verse, and if the harshest of detractors had their way (which might happen if you create an opening like this) DMC would be tier 9 or 10. It isn't a minor issue at all. That's why Gilver and myself are unwilling to simply let this happen. It's literally better that the weapons don't get counted than they get treated as non-canon or inaccessible.

Easy counter: Nip THAT movement in the bud if it ever happens. That’s entirely separate to my goal, and secondly…no? Not only does Dante use those weapons in game for introductory cutscenes to introduce them to the player, Dante has canonical explanations for why he does or doesn’t have a weapon. Most of the time he sells them to Enzo. Occasionally he keeps one and uses it, breaking it in a fight (Cerberus), and the very few he DOES keep are used and lost by Lady and Trish in the Qliphoth. In fact, the only time Dante’s abilities have been 100% customizable was 3 and 5, and in both of those games there’s a full moveset option, alongside the fact that, unlike PoC, they have actual cutscenes to establish they exist in Dante at any given moment.

Also, while I understand your concern, I’m just trying to accurately chronicle their abilities.

And what I’m saying in regards to these weapons is MORE ACCURATE, as Dante, Vergil, and Lady, so not have constant/consistent access to these weapons, not even in PoC, never display these weapons, these weapons have no effect on plot as they have their own lore entries that would definitely have needed to be mentioned, they serve as a fully customizable RPG mechanic, and serve—Yet again—As a story separate player exclusive feature in a Gacha game that has not made any motion to pursue the idea these weapons aren’t disconnected from everything else, like 90% of Gacha games on Earth. It is more accurate to say EXACTLY what I described in that last sentence and not just state they have the weapons…just because.


Optional Equipment doesn’t mean it won’t be accessible. It literally just means that the OP will have to elaborate on whether or not Dante gets these weapons, which they do anyway for his normal Arsenal. And if they don’t, ask, state your case, and they’ll decide. Hell, like I tried to clarify before, I don’t even see them as non-canon weapons, I see it as not apart of Dante’s canon main set of tools for this story. Hell, given that the entirety of his loadout is decided in DMC and the bar next to it, you could also reason its “With Preparation.” Either way, it’s undeniable that the PoC weapons can’t be classified the same as any other DMC weapon or the main artifact of the game, and trying to conflate them is something that can’t be done, at all.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Sure, except the fact some have explicit entries, like the Sound of Doom having taken Mourning Banshee Souls.

And why use it later when Dante has grown far beyond that level? Do you keep using tackle and scratch when your Pokémon is at level 30 or higher? Do you keep using an iron sword when your Elder Scrolls character is at a higher level?

Convenient.

And already the rule applied to Bayonetta, Kratos, Ryu Hayabusa, Chris Redfield, Raiden, Leon Kennedy, and many more. You're pushing for a harsher rule to be applied to Dante. The detractors would love that.

Even if I agree they realistically could, it still falls within optional equipment.

Why? Just because you say so, and because "gacha"? You're trying to impose a harsh rule only on a single verse, and that has always gone badly for DMC in the past.

Actually, when I initially used the phrase canon I was intending for it to read as Dante doesn’t have a main weapon set.

“…but technically are not ‘canon’ additions to a character's arsenal.” As in, Dante never uses these weapons outside the player’s intent.

Great, a line of reasoning that would lead to every extra weapon in every game being questionable, a downgrade for basically every game verse, except that it would only be applied to DMC. Well done.

I started using the word more frequently and with the usual definition in mind simply because I was getting frustrated

Well done, you're arguing to impose a harsher rule concerning equipment only on DMC, and arguing aspects of PoC aren't canon when detractors are basically frothing at the mouth to get the game dismissed as non-canon.

(due to fact in my opinion we’re arguing over something really dumb. Not as shade thrown towards you, but as a matter of something, at least for me, relatively minor), but that’s my b.

Fair enough, but this isn't as minor as you think.

Easy counter: Nip THAT movement in the bud if it ever happens.

Are you serious right now? Either you're joking or you have no idea how much of a problem it is to give detractors an opening. DMC haters are a breed apart. They've argued for all in-game dodging to be dismissed as hitboxes and therefore not speed feats, but only applying that rule to DMC. That argument was actually treated seriously. They've tried to downgrade DMC based on that G1 blog and supporters had to defend against it. No other verse has to be defended against criticism on other websites. They've bullied DMC supporters and then permanently banned people who fought back against their bullying. They've silenced discussion on the verse (closing every thread) for six months to give themselves time to make half-assed downgrade threads that would take less than an hour to make. That's right, they silenced their opposition for six months so they could "prepare" while their opposition was kneecapped, bullied them off the Wiki during that time, and used that six month ban on threads to prepare to make their own very lazy downgrade threads.

DMC haters are allowed far more freedom than DMC supporters, and are honestly some of the most unreasonable haters I've ever seen, and if you give them an opening, you're shooting DMC in the foot. I wouldn't be concerned about this stuff if I didn't know that "nipping it in the bud" is a pipe dream.

That’s entirely separate to my goal, and secondly…no? Not only does Dante use those weapons in game for introductory cutscenes to introduce them to the player, Dante has canonical explanations for why he does or doesn’t have a weapon. Most of the time he sells them to Enzo. Occasionally he keeps one and uses it, breaking it in a fight (Cerberus), and the very few he DOES keep are used and lost by Lady and Trish in the Qliphoth. In fact, the only time Dante’s abilities have been 100% customizable was 3 and 5, and in both of those games there’s a full moveset option, alongside the fact that, unlike PoC, they have actual cutscenes to establish they exist in Dante at any given moment.

Remember, DMC haters often get their way and push through downgrades even if they're shooting blanks. Don't give them any ammunition.

Also, while I understand your concern, I’m just trying to accurately chronicle their abilities.

It would literally be better if you deleted the weapon blogs and renamed the thread to "just kidding". What you're doing could lead to tier 9 DMC, all weapons disregarded, Dante having Low regeneration, and all extra materials disregarded.

And what I’m saying in regards to these weapons is MORE ACCURATE, as Dante, Vergil, and Lady, so not have constant/consistent access to these weapons, not even in PoC, never display these weapons, these weapons have no effect on plot as they have their own lore entries that would definitely have needed to be mentioned, they serve as a fully customizable RPG mechanic, and serve—Yet again—As a story separate player exclusive feature in a Gacha game that has not made any motion to pursue the idea these weapons aren’t disconnected from everything else, like 90% of Gacha games on Earth. It is more accurate to say EXACTLY what I described in that last sentence and not just state they have the weapons…just because.

Every single thing you just named is gameplay mechanics, except the lack of mention of the weapons, which is typical in most hack and slash games.

Optional Equipment doesn’t mean it won’t be accessible. It literally just means that the OP will have to elaborate on whether or not Dante gets these weapons, which they do anyway for his normal Arsenal. And if they don’t, ask, state your case, and they’ll decide. Hell, like I tried to clarify before, I don’t even see them as non-canon weapons, I see it as not apart of Dante’s canon main set of tools for this story. Hell, given that the entirety of his loadout is decided in DMC and the bar next to it, you could also reason its “With Preparation.”

This is all gameplay mechanics as well, and was already a thing in DMC3. It would still make an opening for disregarding all DMC's weapons, and it wouldn't be done for any other verse.

Either way, it’s undeniable that the PoC weapons can’t be classified the same as any other DMC weapon or the main artifact of the game, and trying to conflate them is something that can’t be done, at all.

Nothing you've said above is any different from other DMC weapons or any other game with multiple weapons. The gacha stuff is gameplay mechanics, and the inability to freely switch between all the weapons is gameplay mechanics.

Please understand that giving people who hate a franchise for no apparent reason an opening, on a Wiki that tends to let them have their way, is a bad idea... Please figure that out...

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

DMC3 weapons: can be found doing shit normally

PoC weapons: a large number of them can only be adquiered outside the main story in a gacha event

That's it, you can't adquiere poc weapons normally. These weapons aren't something that you can find on a regular basis on Dante.

As the pages states: Optional Equipment, which can encompass anything that the character has owned or made use of for an extended period of time, regardless of whether or not it's usually on their person.

Like we said Dante doesn't normally have access to this stuff, not only is dependent on rng but also outside the main story, yes you can buy them and give them to him, yes they are Canon but they aren't something he carries with him normally.

 

[Random-Helper323]

DMC3 weapons: can be found doing shit normally

PoC weapons: a large number of them can only be adquiered outside the main story in a gacha

That's it, you can't adquiere poc weapons normally. These weapons aren't something that you can find on a regular basis on Dante.

Gameplay mechanics. That's what the gacha itself is. This entire assessment is based on a gameplay mechanic. A predatory one, but still a gameplay mechanic. And my and Gilver's slippery slope concerns are still valid, unless creating an opening to call every item in DMC into question is your intention.

As the pages states: Optional Equipment, which can encompass anything that the character has owned or made use of for an extended period of time, regardless of whether or not it's usually on their person.

This could just as easily be applied to the other weapons.

Like we said Dante doesn't normally have access to this stuff, not only is dependent on rng but also outside the main story, yes you can buy them and give them to him, yes they are Canon but they aren't something he carries with him normally.

The recovery of Kalina Amm is outside the main story, as are numerous items in DMC1, including the Bangle of Time, and every weapon in games like Bayonetta, Resident Evil, and others, is also outside the main story.

If tier 9 DMC with Low regeneration which weakens with stamina, subsonic speed, no additional weapons or abilities, and most material dismissed as non-canon is what you want, then keep pushing for what you're pushing for.

 

[RedReaper616]

Gameplay mechanics. That's what the gacha itself is. This entire assessment is based on a gameplay mechanic. A predatory one, but still a gameplay mechanic. And my and Gilver's slippery slope concerns are still valid, unless creating an opening to call every item in DMC into question is your intention.

This could just as easily be applied to the other weapons.

The recovery of Kalina Amm is outside the main story, as are numerous items in DMC1, including the Bangle of Time, and every weapon in games like Bayonetta, Resident Evil, and others, is also outside the main story.

If tier 9 DMC with Low regeneration which weakens with stamina, subsonic speed, no additional weapons or abilities, and most material dismissed as non-canon is what you want, then keep pushing for what you're pushing for.

Question

How does the blatant non-game feature relate to the even more blatant lore statements?

Also, false equivalence. DMC5 hints to the player in the gallery this can be achieved, and rewards them for it. It is a built in, player rewarding feature that it purposely tasks you with.

Gacha mechanics separate from the story are just that—Gacha mechanics separate from the main story.

 

[Random-Helper323]

How does the blatant non-game feature relate to the even more blatant lore statements?

Also, false equivalence. DMC5 hints to the player in the gallery this can be achieved, and rewards them for it. It is a built in, player rewarding feature that it purposely tasks you with.

PoC also hints that you can get rewards for playing the gacha. The weapons in PoC are a built in, player rewarding feature that it purposely tasks you with also. Look, I don't trust this thing because the detractors will use it.

Gacha mechanics separate from the story are just that—Gacha mechanics separate from the main story.

Bayonetta's random records she picks up are just that, random records she can collect seperate from the main story. Method of acquiring the weapons is just gameplay mechanics.

You keep saying this isn't important to you, and yet you stubbornly argue it. It is important to Gilver and me because we recognise how threatening it is to DMC as a whole, and we see how treating in-game weapons as irrelevant or non-standard equipment (you even pushed for calling it non-canon) can be easily made to apply to all of DMC's items, and if you call canonicity into question you make an opening for much worse downgrades, and all starting with disregarding weapons based on gameplay mechanics. What you see as semantics, we recognise as a weakness that detractors will exploit.