PoC Hax Revision 2 of 2

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

optional

Literal game mechanics
Which is utterly irrelevant factor.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Dude we after hundreds of post we are back to same arguements which was made at start of the thread.

What's the use?

 

[RedReaper]

Good question. I honestly couldn't tell you, because-As I said before, I genuinely thought that of all things was a non-issue.

However, while I'm not all that concerned about the weapons being something other than Standard equipment, calling them Standard feels disingenious. They don't behave like any of Dante's standard equipment in other games-Even in the DMC games where you have limited weapon choice.

Further, while yeah, you could argue Dante being limited to two weapons is game mechanics, I've already pointed out how a good portion of these abilities break the plot. Lady would not need Silver Bullets if she could whip out random super soul destroying bazooka#5757567. Vergil would never be challenged in hell because he has mind and willpower negating swords. Dante would definitely struggle to take souls with the Book of Demons because he has half a dozen other weapons on his person also vying for the souls of the defeated.

On a story level, fundamental level, and yes, on a meta level, the weapons don't make sense to include, and we even have a wiki rule dictating that weapon sets like these should be optional anyway.

That's explicitly why I'm trying to split the difference with you by trying to find a middle ground.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

There will be no middle ground.

Half the arguements are retrospective theories/20-20 hind sight relying on PIS via anachronistic game orders, and other half are are pure game mechanics.

And plot breaking powers are last thing we should worry about, when we have immeasurable speed Dante who didn't go back in time to save his dear mom.

 

[RedReaper]

There will be no middle ground.

Half the arguements are retrospective theories/20-20 hind sight relying on PIS via anachronistic game orders, and other half are are pure game mechanics.

And plot breaking powers are last thing we should worry about, when we have immeasurable speed Dante who didn't go back in time to save his dear mom.

Except Dante not going back in time has actual narrative sense. By the time Dante becomes that powerful, he's moved on and focused on revenge. Vergil is similar to this-He's moved on and gained a desire for power, as well as a subconscious one to be saved.

Neither would go back and save their mother.

Conversely, the weapons have no actual reason to be included as standard other than your fear of something bad happening and whataboutism.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Except Dante not going back in time has actual narrative sense. By the time Dante becomes that powerful, he's moved on and focused on revenge. Vergil is similar to this-He's moved on and gained a desire for power, as well as a subconscious one to be saved.

Neither would go back and save their mother.

Proof?
Zimatorn levels of cope.

Conversely, the weapons have no actual reason to be included as standard other than your fear of something bad happening and whataboutism.

Whataboutism is a weak allegation, when we just pointed out inconsistent and harsh standards being applied for zero reason which rely on purely game mechanics.

 

[RedReaper]

Proof?
Zimatorn levels of cope.

The plot of DMC3, alongside the plot of Visions of V for Vergil specifically.

Whataboutism is a weak allegation, when we just pointed out inconsistent and harsh standards being applied for zero reason which rely on purely game mechanics.

Except...it is whataboutism. Random's counterarguments were Bayonetta, NieR, COD, Ninja Gaiden, etc.

It was bringing up other game series and pointing out that their entirely separate game series adhered to the clearly written rules differently.

I pointed out how even on a game mechanics level it doesn't add up.

And regardless, as I said before, even if we assume all the weapons are his canon arsenal, based on the fact it is player choice and still unrelated to the plot it'd have to be optional anyway, as Dante basically becomes a customizable RPG character with the addition of personality in this game.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You know what just call someone with mod power to vote and let us be done with this shit

 

[RedReaper]

I guess?

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

shouldn't someone from both sides abridge the 100 posts worth of arguments so it's easier for the mods to decide

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

shouldn't someone from both sides abridge the 100 posts worth of arguments so it's easier for the mods to decide

Gacha weapons:

Optional or standard equipment.

There you go

 

[Random-Helper323]

There are essentially five arguments for the weapons being optional/non-canon.

"The weapons don't appear in cutscenes"

This is already untrue given that one of the weapons does appear in a cutscene, and that cutscene references the gunsmith upgrading other weapons as well. In addition to that, none of Bayonetta's extra weapons have ever appeared in a cutscene. So unless you want to also argue that Bayonetta's entire arsenal is optional, this argument is pretty much baseless.


"the weapons aren't obtained in the main story"

This line of reasoning would also apply to every item obtained through bonus modes or side quests. It would also apply to every item added by DLC, and it could easily be stretched to include story content added by DLC and other such things, since this argument is about canonicity. So this isn't very solid either. Generally, if something's in the game and available to purchase in-game we consider it canon and part of the character's arsenal unless we have a solid reason to believe they don't have it, like an unexplainable lore contradiction.


""customisable"/can't equip all weapons at once"

First of all the overuse of the word "customisable" is just using the same wording as the standard equipment page to make it seem the same as the RPG characters listed. Secondly, the inability to equip more than a few of the weapons in a mission is a gameplay mechanic, and one that's directly contradicted by the hammer space Dante and the other characters are all well established to have in the lore. This was the case when DMC3 didn't allow you to equip all the weapons at once, and it's the case now.


"gacha/lootbox"

These are honestly just empty buzzwords which fail to outline any genuine distinction between the bonus mode that gets the PoC weapons and numerous paid DLC's and other bonus modes. This is an entirely empty argument. Just because you don't like the crap the company does doesn't mean the content suddenly isn't canon or isn't part of the game.


"Lady doesn't have demonic energy"

This is nothing but empty semantics. Lady very clearly has hammer space, as she can carry multiple pistols, a sub-machine gun, a shotgun, a rocket launcher and numerous grenades in a single holster and a pair of shorts, and can consecutively fire missiles from the rocket launcher even though it visibly only has one rocket.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The plot of DMC3, alongside the plot of Visions of V for Vergil specifically.

DMC3 was before PoC and Visions of V is much later when any strongish demon resists the hax for weeks.

Except...it is whataboutism. Random's counterarguments were Bayonetta, NieR, COD, Ninja Gaiden, etc.

Pointing out similar treatment of other similar verses is called pointing to a precedent. It is often used in courtrooms and legal matters.

It was bringing up other game series and pointing out that their entirely separate game series adhered to the clearly written rules differently.

That's called a precedent. It's been used in legal and political disputes to make major decisions and changes.

And regardless, as I said before, even if we assume all the weapons are his canon arsenal, based on the fact it is player choice and still unrelated to the plot it'd have to be optional anyway, as Dante basically becomes a customizable RPG character with the addition of personality in this game.

There you go again, your entire argument hinges on the buzzword "customisable" which is literally your less-than-honest way of describing the inability to equip all the weapons at once.

 

[Random-Helper323]

But I clarified later that I meant something along the lines of a noncanon set of weapons for this game specifically. He doesn't have a canon standard equipment for this game. It's allllll optional. Literally, as I pointed out before, it fits the bill of the RPG Character in not having a dedicated loadout. And yes, whilst there are characters with completely optional sets of weaponry who aren't listed in this way, my question is why follow in the footsteps of those people when by all accounts THEY are in the wrong for doing so?

Then try to make all their equipment optional or non-canon. Keeping in mind it would be much harder than attacking DMC as you are doing now, because they aren't hated on the Wiki.

Also it's kinda just whataboutism in all of your counterarguments, reflecting on the thread.

Your arguments are buzzwords and your "compromises" are just different wording for your own opinions. And you literally won't understand where my caution comes from until it all happens again, and that's assuming you aren't actually trying to harm DMC. You'd hardly be the first hater to pretend to be a supporter.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

honestly,the thread only have 2 page but why I find it longer than some thread contain 10 page though

 

[RedReaper]

There are essentially five arguments for the weapons being optional/non-canon.

"The weapons don't appear in cutscenes"

This is already untrue given that one of the weapons does appear in a cutscene, and that cutscene references the gunsmith upgrading other weapons as well. In addition to that, none of Bayonetta's extra weapons have ever appeared in a cutscene. So unless you want to also argue that Bayonetta's entire arsenal is optional, this argument is pretty much baseless.

No, everything that Dante equips does not appear when they are in effect. They do not carry into Dante's actual canonical story appearance in the game.

"the weapons aren't obtained in the main story"

This line of reasoning would also apply to every item obtained through bonus modes or side quests. It would also apply to every item added by DLC, and it could easily be stretched to include story content added by DLC and other such things, since this argument is about canonicity. So this isn't very solid either. Generally, if something's in the game and available to purchase in-game we consider it canon and part of the character's arsenal unless we have a solid reason to believe they don't have it, like a lore contradiction.

"Like a lore contradiction." I literally pointed to these. Vergil could not have gained weapons from a dimensional rift in the HW if he was stuck in the DW fighting for his life. Some of these weapons contradict the plot that is being set by just being there. And finally, the weapons not being obtained in the story isn't the problem so much as it's a GACHA GAME, which means it must by all regards disconnect earnable weapons from the canon plot, as it is an RNG based factor. There is no narrative sense in it's addition.

""customisable"/can't equip all weapons at once"

First of all the overuse of the word "customisable" is just using the same wording as the standard equipment page to make it seem the same as the RPG characters listed. Secondly, the inability to equip more than a few of the weapons in a mission is a gameplay mechanic, and one that's directly contradicted by the hammer space Dante and the other characters are all well established to have in the lore. This was the case when DMC3 didn't allow you to equip all the weapons at once, and it's the case now.

This is just disingenious. As a person who has played the first 6 chapters of PoC, he IS an RPG character for all intents and purposes in this game. You have the ability to choose Devil Cards, Devil Runes, your BoD Cover, the two weapons you use, your costime, etc. He is 100% freely able to BE customized. It's not overuse to "falsely describe" what's going on here. It's ACCURATELY DESCRIBING WHAT THEY DID FOR THIS GAME. They CHOSE to make Dante a customizable RPG character with an in depth load out interaction set that massively impacts your gameplay. Trying to attack the word itself doesn't change what PoC Dante is: An RPG Character with Dante's name, personality, and weapons.

"gacha/lootbox"

These are honestly just empty buzzwords which fail to outline any genuine distinction between the bonus mode that gets the PoC weapons and numerous paid DLC's and other bonus modes. This is an entirely empty argument. Just because you don't like the crap the company does doesn't mean the content suddenly isn't canon or isn't part of the game.

There IS a distinction. There's NO REASON to assume this game's gacha weapons are different from any other's, and they're all disconnected from the plot for obvious reasons.

"Lady doesn't have demonic energy"

This is nothing but empty semantics. Lady very clearly has hammer space, as she can carry multiple pistols, a sub-machine gun, a shotgun, a rocket launcher and numerous grenades in a single holster and a pair of shorts, and can consecutively fire missiles from the rocket launcher even though it visibly only has one rocket.

I already conceded she has Hammerspace. You clearly haven't been reading when I said I attacked your handwave answer specifically.

DMC3 was before PoC and Visions of V is much later when any strongish demon resists the hax for weeks.

Yes, your point? I said when Dante and Vergil became STRONG ENOUGH to perform their immeasurable speed, they had developed as characters to the point they would not perform the act of using their speed to save their mother. DMC3 happens directly before PoC, which is when Dante gains immeasurable. Vergil gains HIS immeasurable speed by around the same time, but he's been enslaved already, so he couldn't, and by the time he was free he was dying, which directly leads into Visions of V-Where Vergil develops as person and ultimately becomes a person who wouldn't do so either.

Pointing out similar treatment of other similar verses is called pointing to a precedent. It is often used in courtrooms and legal matters.

You're right, predecents do exist, but it doesn't change your counters amounted to just pointing out other things when I pointed out how most of your examples fell flat, or why your points on the situation directly did not apply. (Such as conflating the Gacha Weapons with DMC3's, when they only share the limited selection feature, but in totality have nothing in common as they are gained in the main story cutscenes, and Dante uses weapons he gains from DMC3, like Cerberus, in BTN). Like Bayonetta. Also, she does have cutscenes for weapon gain, something I just realized. Though they are pretty basic.

That's called a precedent. It's been used in legal and political disputes to make major decisions and changes.

Already answered this.

There you go again, your entire argument hinges on the buzzword "customisable" which is literally your less-than-honest way of describing the inability to equip all the weapons at once.

Already answered this. His loadout is more than two pistols and a sword. It's two pistols, a sword, a Devil Card, Runes, the specific Rune cover, which character (each character has their own passive), and more. They put a lot into this game to make an in-depth set of mechanics that DIRECTLY PARALLEL RPG MECHANICS. Trying to say I'm being less than honest by pointing out the truth is in ITSELF less than honest.

Then try to make all their equipment optional or non-canon. Keeping in mind it would be much harder than attacking DMC as you are doing now, because they aren't hated on the Wiki.

If other series have their own weapons listed wrong, then that is on THEM. I value accuracy. And in this case, it is MORE ACCURATE to assume they are like typical plot-disconnected Gacha Elements. Not anything more, not anything less.

Your arguments are buzzwords and your "compromises" are just different wording for your own opinions. And you literally won't understand where my caution comes from until it all happens again, and that's assuming you aren't actually trying to harm DMC. You'd hardly be the first hater to pretend to be a supporter.

Because I've already stated calling them Standard would be inaccurate and disingenious. That is my problem. And even when I try to compromise, whilst they ARE different variations of my pre-existing opinion, they are also valid descriptions that are accurate and don't step on any toes, as well as avoid the word optional, which is what you're afraid of. Besides, I've yet to hear a compromise from YOUR side that isn't balls to the wall "they're standard." That isn't compromise, that's just your opinion being accepted and ignoring the counterpoints. SECONDLY, HUH? Dude, one, ad hominem. TWO, I'm the guy who added all of the Book of Demons hax, AND combed through the DMC3 Perfect Guide we recently got. Why would I be attacking the series over something as small as "Optional or Standard" equipment GACHA WEAPONS whilst directly amping Dante's powers significantly when NO ONE ELSE desired to cover that topic? (Which means I could've left it be and it would NOT have been touched for some time.)

That's also disregarding this is an UPGRADE THREAD to add MORE hax.

In terms of being a hater, this would literally be the WORST WAY to go about hating in secret. (Especially considering I’m drawing attention to myself with these CRTs.)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yes reaper and me are the biggest DMC haters but we need to stop with the copium and just call staff to end this

 

[Random-Helper323]

No, everything that Dante equips does not appear when they are in effect. They do not carry into Dante's actual canonical story appearance in the game.

In fairness, that doesn't mean much. It doesn't make them non-canon or optional.

"Like an unexplained lore contradiction." I literally pointed to these.

I clarified this after.

Vergil could not have gained weapons from a dimensional rift in the HW if he was stuck in the DW fighting for his life.

My compromise offer included treating Vergil's as unknown precisely because we know he might have lost his items.

Some of these weapons contradict the plot that is being set by just being there. And finally, the weapons not being obtained in the story isn't the problem so much as it's a GACHA GAME, which means it must by all regards disconnect earnable weapons from the canon plot, as it is an RNG based factor. There is no narrative sense in it's addition.

Same can be easily said of items gotten in bonus modes and side missions. This line of reasoning is a slippery slope.

This is just disingenious. As a person who has played the first 6 chapters of PoC, he IS an RPG character for all intents and purposes in this game. You have the ability to choose Devil Cards, Devil Runes, your BoD Cover, the two weapons you use, your costime, etc. He is 100% freely able to BE customized. It's not overuse to "falsely describe" what's going on here. It's ACCURATELY DESCRIBING WHAT THEY DID FOR THIS GAME. They CHOSE to make Dante a customizable RPG character with an in depth load out interaction set that massively impacts your gameplay. Trying to attack the word itself doesn't change what PoC Dante is: An RPG Character with Dante's name, personality, and weapons.

Selecting costumes and styles and weapons is hardly new to DMC or many other games.

There IS a distinction. There's NO REASON to assume this game's gacha weapons are different from any other's, and they're all disconnected from the plot for obvious reasons.

Aside from the buzzword "gacha", this still describes a bonus mode.

I already conceded she has Hammerspace. You clearly haven't been reading when I said I attacked your handwave answer specifically.

You do realise I never said demon energy, right?

Yes, your point? I said when Dante and Vergil became STRONG ENOUGH to perform their immeasurable speed, they had developed as characters to the point they would not perform the act of using their speed to save their mother. DMC3 happens directly before PoC, which is when Dante gains immeasurable. Vergil gains HIS immeasurable speed by around the same time, but he's been enslaved already, so he couldn't, and by the time he was free he was dying, which directly leads into Visions of V-Where Vergil develops as person and ultimately becomes a person who wouldn't do so either.

I'm not talking about immeasurable speed. I'm talking about the hax added by these weapons, which isn't present in DMC3, and is resisted forever by later demons.

You're right, predecents do exist, but it doesn't change your counters amounted to just pointing out other things when I pointed out how most of your examples fell flat

They didn't though. Each example was meant to have something different in common with PoC, not the same thing.

or why your points on the situation directly did not apply. (Such as conflating the Gacha Weapons with DMC3's, when they only share the limited selection feature

Because you tried to use that selection feature as a reason to call them optional.

Like Bayonetta. Also, she does have cutscenes for weapon gain, something I just realized. Though they are pretty basic.

So a reference to them, no cutscene relevance otherwise... Sounds the same as PoC's weapons.

Already answered this. His loadout is more than two pistols and a sword. It's two pistols, a sword, a Devil Card, Runes, the specific Rune cover, which character (each character has their own passive), and more. They put a lot into this game to make an in-depth set of mechanics that DIRECTLY PARALLEL RPG MECHANICS.

We're not talking about anything but the weapons here.

If other series have their own weapons listed wrong, then that is on THEM. I value accuracy. And in this case, it is MORE ACCURATE to assume they are like typical plot-disconnected Gacha Elements. Not anything more, not anything less.

Even when a cutscene referencing them exists?

Because I've already stated calling them Standard would be inaccurate and disingenious. That is my problem.

Just listing them as PoC weapons apparently wouldn't even make them standard.

And even when I try to compromise, whilst they ARE different variations of my pre-existing opinion, they are also valid descriptions that are accurate and don't step on any toes, as well as avoid the word optional, which is what you're afraid of.

You never offered any compromise. Suggesting "additional" is literally the same thing, and suggesting "with prep" is actually worse. It's basically telling someone you're going to do the same nasty thing to them but call it something different. If someone threatened to kill you and then said they'd compromise and call it "Un-alive-ing" you instead, that's not a compromise. In fact if I heard that said that to someone I'd believe the person saying that was either completely insane or teasing their intended victim.

Besides, I've yet to hear a compromise from YOUR side that isn't balls to the wall "they're standard." That isn't compromise, that's just your opinion being accepted and ignoring the counterpoints.

I offered a compromise of not bothering with Vergil, which is more of a compromise than you ever offered.

SECONDLY, HUH? Dude, one, ad hominem.

Not ad hominem, distrust.

TWO, I'm the guy who added all of the Book of Demons hax, AND combed through the DMC3 Perfect Guide we recently got. Why would I be attacking the series over something as small as "Optional or Standard" equipment GACHA WEAPONS whilst directly amping Dante's powers significantly when NO ONE ELSE desired to cover that topic? (Which means I could've left it be and it would NOT have been touched for some time.)

That's also disregarding this is an UPGRADE THREAD to add MORE hax.

Cyberblader pushed through an upgrade and then used it as a source of credibility for that G1 blog, ultimately doing nothing but harm to DMC, and until Cyberblader proves otherwise I see him as a secret detractor too.

In terms of being a hater, this would literally be the WORST WAY to go about hating in secret. (Especially considering I’m drawing attention to myself with these CRTs.)

Who knows. All I know is that DMC has been mistreated a lot in the past, and this idea of non-canon weapons creates an opening that can be exploited. And when I try to warn you about it and explain why this is a big deal, in vivid detail regarding how bad it's been (the six months of forced silence literally did happen, for example), you dismiss it and push forward anyway. That's why I say you apparently won't realise the threat until it comes to fruition. I deal with people who have no sense of caution or basic survival instinct all the time, you literally can't get them to stop doing self-destructive things until it happens to them.

Yes reaper and me are the biggest DMC haters but we need to stop with the copium and just call staff to end this

I never said that of you, but I don't know who this Reaper person is. And you're both fine with giving haters an opening to dismiss DMC's feats and items.

 

[RedReaper]

Time to finish this so I can start the next DMC project.

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

Time to finish this so I can start the next DMC project.

yeah this time please call mods

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The weapons being gacha aside, I think the more important question is where do they fit in the lore? To my understanding, there's always a cutscene or lore establishment whenever any DMC character uses a weapon in the series. Like Dante doesn't magically have Yamato after Vergil takes it. Where are these weapons post-PoC? I'd rather we write these off as gameplay only. Besides, these weapons don't affect the characters too much since they already have whatever hax these weapons give them anyway.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The weapons being gacha aside, I think the more important question is where do they fit in the lore? To my understanding, there's always a cutscene or lore establishment whenever any DMC character uses a weapon in the series. Like Dante doesn't magically have Yamato after Vergil takes it. Where are these weapons post-PoC? I'd rather we write these off as gameplay only. Besides, these weapons don't affect the characters too much since they already have whatever hax these weapons give them anyway.

Worth mentioning that weapons like Agni and Rudra are available for use. And numerous weapons collected in DMC games make no later appearance, same with God of War, Bayonetta, etc.

Time to finish this so I can start the next DMC project.

Hey, Reaper, apologies for my crankiness earlier, and I wanted to talk about this revision a bit with you in PM's. Is that all right with you?

 

[RedReaper]

Hey, Reaper, apologies for my crankiness earlier, and I wanted to talk about this revision a bit with you in PM's. Is that all right with you?

Sure, and it’s no biggie.

 

[Theglassman12]

Optional sounds fine

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

I can start the next DMC project.

can you gave me a hint about it please red sama

 

[Robo432343]

bumpy-