Plot Manipulation user (Marvel Comics)

[SageF]

Defenders: Beyond #1-5

---

Beyonder Post-Retcon: It was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own canonicity and is aware of his own pervious retcons. It's Shown Here ''Upon reaching the House, he hid himself until the Defenders finished their business. At the end, he proclaimed himself "The" Beyonder, freed himself from the House of Ideas, and stated that he would return on his own terms.''​

King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. King Loki was able to manipulate stories.
Wiccan as the Demiurge: Shown Here

 

[Excellence616]

Defenders: Beyond #1-5

---

Queen of Nevers​

Beyonder Post-Retcon​

Lady Loki
Eternity Mask aka Multi Eternity

No scans. Post some scans.

 

[Vasco]

Queen of Nevers:​

Shown Here
Again Shown Here

Reality warping not plot manipulation.

Here

Looks like limited plot manipulation since he can rip apart stories.

Shown Here "The laws of narrative don't apply to the other Beyonders"

Your scan didn't show it completely so i disagree...expect you post following pages of how the laws of narrative don't apply to other beyonders, but GOS loki should have plot manipulation. And that would be resistance for the beyonders which I'm still not convinced by your scan.

King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer

Should be plot manipulation.

Eternity Mask aka Multi Eternity:
The mask contains part of a cosmic lineage stretching back to the first conflict of the story. And can see the narrative, The story. The whole. And sees that everything is made of narrative through space time. And Subconsciously ending the book in the same fashion. Eternity is a user.

No plot manipulation here.

 

[SageF]

Reality warping not plot manipulation.

I'll accept this.

Looks like limited plot manipulation since he can rip apart stories.

I wouldn't say he's limited. I was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious canonicity/retcons.

Your scan didn't show it completely so i disagree...expect you post following pages of how the laws of narrative don't apply to other beyonders, but GOS loki should have plot manipulation. And that would be resistance for the beyonders which I'm still not convinced by your scan.

Just read the third issue. So no Plot Manip resistance.

Should be plot manipulation.

Should also have a profile.

No plot manipulation here.

possibly Plot Manipulation. Another thread that support it.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Vasco]

I wouldn't say he's limited. I was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious canonicity/retcons.

The first scan is reality warping and the second scan is him telling the story of secret wars, of how he came to know of the universe through Owen reece accident from his realm nothing there shows plot manipulation.

possibly Plot Manipulation. Another thread that support it.

That thread doesn't prove anything and watching through space and time and it's narrative isn't plot manipulation. This is exactly what the watchers do infact.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

That thread doesn't prove anything and watching through space and time and it's narrative isn't plot manipulation. This is exactly what the watchers do infact.

Eternity embodies spacetime, which is fiction in comparison to an aspect of him
Hence why we could make the assumption of a R>F interaction between Spacetime and Eternity
Which would be Plot Manipulation from what i understand

 

[Vasco]

Since his outerversal and contains higher dimensions in his being and sees them as fiction/stories is enough R>F difference and having R>F difference doesn't grant plot manipulation.

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...

vsbattles.fandom.com

No plot manipulation.

Only beyonder can qualify either for possibly or straight up plot manipulation for ripping apart stories and GOS loki should also have plot manipulation. Nothing about scans brought for eternity is plot manipulation simply seeing space and time and narratives in them isn't plot manipulation.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

“The ability to control the plot that governs reality”
Sees reality as fiction
And embodies said fictional reality

Any manipulation with reality is almost guaranteed to be on a narrative level
But, this wiki is too strict for this hax so whatever

As well as Eternity Mask being way too inconsistent anyways

 

[Vasco]

Yes which Eternity didn't do in those scans shown only sees the stories in reality..similar to "watchers" nothing about controlling the plot.

Any manipulation with reality can be anything as we have many abilities in fiction, the wiki indeed has covered that as we have many manipulation pages.
The wiki isn't really strict, it gives characters the abilities they deserve, people just tend to wank things to favour verses they like or just mention the wrong manipulation for said ability done.

So far I only agree with beyonder limited or straight-up and GOS loki. Plus we need staffs input here.

 

[SageF]

Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.

 

[Vasco]

You'd need to create another CRT

 

[SageF]

Deadpool with the Continuity Gem has this https://i.stack.imgur.com/HXxA7.jpg

 

[SageF]

Bump

 

[Vasco]

Deadpool with the Continuity Gem has this https://i.stack.imgur.com/HXxA7.jpg

I don't understand what's happening here is deadpool is known to be a joke character.
PM staffs to check your thread.

 

[SageF]

Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dc2210294d416bd5e889760e1f87e1de-lq

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/117764739_1564607100385766_3626324395593057356_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=973b4a&_nc_ohc=XbTJe0erR9YAX8HRvI7&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDPEgjHOPxFqDX2pxCgru0I1KFVBHPj-dGaX9g1kkCE5w&oe=63B6F34D

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2b62e7df2614f98ac8c577dab516e58-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4f3b59aa3e550c9473267ef48dcef040-lq

He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.

 

[Vasco]

Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dc2210294d416bd5e889760e1f87e1de-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2b62e7df2614f98ac8c577dab516e58-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4f3b59aa3e550c9473267ef48dcef040-lq

He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.

I see no plot manipulation in the first 3 scans, nothing there is plot manipulation.

He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.

No plot manipulation and beyonder wasn't even shown manipulating the story and that looks like 4th wall breaking for she-hulk.

 

[SageF]

The first 3 scans are 4th wall breaking/meta fiction for beyonder. And yes she-hulk can do that as well, but she can also defeat opponents by crumpling up the page, that plot manipulation. She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation user, she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance. It's Shown Here that both beyonder and GoS Loki have Immersion, from traveling between stories/realities from the first scan, second scan show Fictional Interaction, beyonder and GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation, unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters) and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.


Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.

 

[Vasco]

I see no 4th wall breaking in any of those scans infact unless you can clarify more, the she-hulk thing looks more like Toon force or limited plot manipulation.

She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation

Proof

she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer.

She-hulk thing looks gag like how characters talk to writers in multiple comic book all these are just joke ***** that happen time to time in comics and GOS loki thing can I see the scan?

. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance.

No plot manipulation resistance and no scan.

GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation

It's not plot manipulation, did you read the page of plot manipulation?

unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters)

I don't see anything special of a fictional character interacting with another fictional character.

and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.

It should grant limited plot manipulation but I haven't read the book so they might be additional context I might not know about.

Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.

Only one of them was shown to resist his plot manipulation but the rest should probably scale also, I feel the reason why he resisted it is cause his greater than GOS loki. HOI vision has no plot manipulation.

 

[Vasco]

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Did you check this page? Cause not all things that deal with comic or page or interacting with writers grant plot manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it doesn't quite seem like plot manipulation to me either, just advanced 4th wall breaking.

 

[Vasco]

Same also but GOS loki and post retcon beyonder should get( his should be limited, all he did was tear comics/stories) and the beyonders should probably get resistance also. She Hulk scans just look gag,toon force or advance 4th wall breaking. Anything else I'm not convinced at all. We'd need more staff inputs.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Qawsedf234

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[SageF]

Immersion: Beyonder (Pre/Post-Retcon), GoS Loki, HOI Vision, The One Above All and Multi Eternity via Eternity Mask, Deadpool with the Continuity Gem and She-Hulk (Classics); formerly
Plot Resistance: The Beyonders (Ivory King), Beyonder (Post-Retcon); scaling from the other beyonders and GoS Loki
Toon Force: She-Hulk (Classics); formerly
Plot Manipulation: Beyonder (Post-Retcon); limited, GoS Loki, Wiccan as the Demiurge, (Remove Doctor Doom and Molecule Man
as a user)

 

[Vasco]

We'd need staffs to check to conclude.

Plot Resistance: The Beyonders (Ivory King), Beyonder (Post-Retcon); scaling from the other beyonders and GoS Loki

Especially on this cause it seems he resisted it cause his greater/more powerful than loki that's why I am unsure about the resistance. Plus why will GOS loki have it?

Deadpool with the Continuity Gem

This wasn't talked about in this thread.

Wiccan as the Demiurge

Can you remind me of the scan that makes him have plot manipulation?

 

[SageF]

We'd need staffs to check to conclude.

Especially on this cause it seems he resisted it cause his greater/more powerful than loki that's why I am unsure about the resistance. Plus why will GOS loki have it?

Apparently one was kill by blue marvel anti matter, but they can regenerate from cosmic energy engine. God of Stories Loki isn't affected by the writer retcon.

This wasn't talked about in this thread.


Can you remind me of the scan that makes him have plot manipulation?

Deadpool can qualify for Immersion since he killed his creator. (Wiccan) He's manipulating the actual panels of the comic itself.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Deagonx]

It was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious retcons. It'sShown Here ''Upon reaching the House, he hid himself until the Defenders finished their business. At the end, he proclaimed himself "The" Beyonder, freed himself from the House of Ideas, and stated that he would return on his own terms.''

I am not sure this constitutes plot manipulation, it just seems to suggest that what we consider his "retcons" are explained in-verse by his reality manipulation. Can you specify the source of each of these scans?

King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. King Loki was able to manipulate stories.
Eternity Mask aka Multi Eternity:
The mask contains part of a cosmic lineage stretching back to the first conflict of the story. And can see the narrative, The story. The whole. And sees that everything is made of narrative through space time. And ending the book in the same fashion. Eternity is a user.

This seems figurative. Writing one's own story isn't always meta.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that The Beyonder very likely at least tried to un-retcon himself, but that remains to be explained further. It was left open-ended so far.

 

[Vasco]

Deadpool can qualify for Immersion since he killed his creator.

Not immersion.

God of Stories Loki isn't affected by the writer retcon.

This seems figurative. Writing one's own story isn't always meta.

I guess, you've got your answer.

 

[SageF]

Not immersion.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/2BoEJ.png
https://i.stack.imgur.com/araeB.png

I guess, you've got your answer.

possibly advanced 4th Wall Breaking

 

[Vasco]

https://i.stack.imgur.com/2BoEJ.png
https://i.stack.imgur.com/araeB.png

possibly advanced 4th Wall Breaking

I'm sure that's from "deadpool kills the Marvel universe" which isn't canon.

No 4th wall breaking as loki didn't interact with readers or anything, just narration talking about him.

 

[SageF]

No 4th wall breaking as loki didn't interact with readers or anything, just narration talking about him.

I meant for the Eternity through Eternity Mask it view reality a mere fiction.

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Vasco]

I'm sure it's already on Eternity profile since his outerversal and sees the universe/multiverse as fiction, the Eternity mask scans above you sent have nothing on R-F difference just viewing the stories of the multiverse, which isn't R-F difference.

 

[SageF]

Can somebody conclude this thread?

 

[Vasco]

GOS loki should have plot manipulation( I'm talking of the scan he affected a beyonder)
The beyonders should have a possibly resistance since of of them could resist his plot manipulation(but it could be the resistance came cause they are more powerful like loki himself said)
She-hulk toon force and 4th wall breaking, but I think these should already be on her profile.

Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.

And i see this as fate manipulation since he can control their lives but let's here other's input on it.

 

[Eficiente]

I just came here, only what's in the OP is being proposed or what is it?

 

[Vasco]

What's in the OP seems to have been debunked though he brought new scans and suggestions which me and deagonx answered also but here they are.

Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.

Deadpool with the Continuity Gem has this https://i.stack.imgur.com/HXxA7.jpg

Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dc2210294d416bd5e889760e1f87e1de-lq

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/117764739_1564607100385766_3626324395593057356_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=973b4a&_nc_ohc=XbTJe0erR9YAX8HRvI7&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDPEgjHOPxFqDX2pxCgru0I1KFVBHPj-dGaX9g1kkCE5w&oe=63B6F34D

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2b62e7df2614f98ac8c577dab516e58-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4f3b59aa3e550c9473267ef48dcef040-lq

He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.

The first 3 scans are 4th wall breaking/meta fiction for beyonder. And yes she-hulk can do that as well, but she can also defeat opponents by crumpling up the page, that plot manipulation. She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation user, she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance. It's Shown Here that both beyonder and GoS Loki have Immersion, from traveling between stories/realities from the first scan, second scan show Fictional Interaction, beyonder and GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation, unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters) and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.


Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.

 

[SageF]

Information Manipulation and Plot Manipulation (As stated here.[25] And created a TV screen in his own domain to watch a story he specifically made for Galactus so he would understand what he needs to do in order to win[25])

That Technology Manipulation with Information Manipulation. My god his profile need a manage clean up.

Also current beyonder should scale above current molecule man since the who thing involving molecule man was a mere experiment.

Beyonder can un-retcon himself should count as reality manipulation, causality manipulation/acausality and possibly plot manipulation. Should have all the abilities of pre-retcon beyonder abilities since he is the beyonder.

 

[Vasco]

?
Plus beyonder unretonning himself is very uncertain.