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Plot Manipulation user (Marvel Comics)

SageF said:
Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.
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Yes.
SageF said:
Deadpool with the Continuity Gem has this https://i.stack.imgur.com/HXxA7.jpg
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That story is such a joke, idk if it can be used.
SageF said:
Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation




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I can't read that last one, but in general what's happening that would be Plot Manip? Also source.
SageF said:
He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
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From that link, there is only something for She-Hulk, and it's not a Resistance to Plot Manip because we don't know if they tried to make her forget her life and know a new one, it's just her 4th Wall Awareness.
SageF said:
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.
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Scans?
SageF said:
The first 3 scans are 4th wall breaking/meta fiction for beyonder.
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Well, sometimes the creators of comics and their company show up in Marvel, like in early FF comics. I don't think that's that.
SageF said:
And yes she-hulk can do that as well, but she can also defeat opponents by crumpling up the page, that plot manipulation.
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Yes it is, but it must be written that she could kill with that as the draftsman will draw him again.
SageF said:
She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation user, she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer.
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This refers to the stuff before, no?
SageF said:
The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance.
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Can I see that again?
SageF said:
It's Shown Here that both beyonder and GoS Loki have Immersion, from traveling between stories/realities from the first scan
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Sure.
SageF said:
second scan show Fictional Interaction, beyonder and GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation, unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters)
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They ony interact with each other tho.
SageF said:
and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.
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Ok, only because it affects those other characters.
SageF said:
Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity.
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The effects of Loki's powers weren't doing much and could be fought back like that.
SageF said:
Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.
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Maybe, or maybe it's the house like he says, and the house follows things in line with what he thinks.
 
Eficiente said:
I can't read that last one, but in general what's happening that would be Plot Manip? Also source.
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That one is 4th Wall Breaking, Beyonder made a call with the marvel company and threaten them.
Eficiente said:
From that link, there is only something for She-Hulk, and it's not a Resistance to Plot Manip because we don't know if they tried to make her forget her life and know a new one, it's just her 4th Wall Awareness.
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Well we can agree to remove the resistance from her key.
Eficiente said:
Yes it is, but it must be written that she could kill with that as the draftsman will draw him again.
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So limited is fine.
Eficiente said:
Sure.

They ony interact with each other tho.

Ok, only because it affects those other characters.
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Can it still count as Plot Manipulation.
Eficiente said:
The effects of Loki's powers weren't doing much and could be fought back like that.
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The Beyonders were stuck in a "narrative arc" lucky the beyonder we're familiar with manage to escape. But it's still count as a feat.
Eficiente said:
Maybe, or maybe it's the house like he says, and the house follows things in line with what he thinks.
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You could say it advanced fourth wall breaking/summoning since he literally summon fictional entity to life.
 
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That was just the version of Marvel Comics within the Marvel universe. Other characters also showed up. It is not plot manipulation.
 
Not exactly. It has been long established that there is a version of the Marvel Comics company existing within the Marvel universe.
 
Eficiente said:
Yes it is, but it must be written that she could kill with that as the draftsman will draw him again.
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What she-hulk did seems more like Toon force than plot manipulation.

Eficiente said:
Maybe, or maybe it's the house like he says, and the house follows things in line with what he thinks.
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Him creating characters and using them in battle doesn't cut it for me, I don't agree for it to be plot manipulation.
 
Vasco said:
What she-hulk did seems more like Toon force than plot manipulation.


Him creating characters and using them in battle doesn't cut it for me, I don't agree for it to be plot manipulation.
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Ok advanced toon force for she-hulk and creation for vision
 
Vasco said:
What she-hulk did seems more like Toon force than plot manipulation.
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It's both,
  • Limited Plot Manip: Grabbing the page, ripping it while trapping a foe but not herself, destroy the ripped page and momentarily destroy the character trapped there, and the fact that a hand with a pen re draws things around her
  • Toon Force: that trash can being there is bs. Maybe having that match is bs too.
 
What are our current conclusions here?
 
Oh. My apologies for messing up then.
 
Disagreeing of CRT.
SageF said:

Beyonder Post-Retcon: It was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own canonicity and is aware of his own pervious retcons.​

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This fits in with RW and Fourth Wall Awareness.
SageF said:
It's Shown Here ''Upon reaching the House, he hid himself until the Defenders finished their business. At the end, he proclaimed himself "The" Beyonder, freed himself from the House of Ideas, and stated that he would return on his own terms.''
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This should be Plot Hax resistance. Also, it may very well be an Outlier, since the HoI is the home of the TOAA who is the most powerful being in Marvel.
 
Those seem to be good points.
 
TauanVictor said:
Disagreeing of CRT.

This fits in with RW and Fourth Wall Awareness.

This should be Plot Hax resistance. Also, it may very well be an Outlier, since the HoI is the home of the TOAA who is the most powerful being in Marvel.
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The Beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, but Beyonder himself somehow was lucky not to get stuck and is vastly superior to them. Agreed with RW & 4WA added with immersion.
 
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Post-Retcon Beyonder need multiple keys. Inhuman-mutant, child-unit, kosmos and OMEGA Beyonder who should scale way above classic beyonder not to mention he stated he is the classics meaning he has all his hax and is 1-A baseline above molecule man and Dr doom.
 
SageF said:
Post-Retcon Beyonder need multiple keys. Inhuman-mutant, child-unit, kosmos and OMEGA Beyonder who should scale way above classic beyonder not to mention he stated he is the classics meaning he has all his hax and is 1-A baseline above molecule man and Dr doom.
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That must be a subject for another CRT.
 
SageF said:
Post-Retcon Beyonder need multiple keys. Inhuman-mutant, child-unit, kosmos and OMEGA Beyonder who should scale way above classic beyonder not to mention he stated he is the classics meaning he has all his hax and is 1-A baseline above molecule man and Dr doom.
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We need some good explicit evidence of this, given that classic Beyonder was explicitly millions of times more powerful than Multiversal Eternity.
 
The point is that Beyonder was stated outright to be millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse combined, and that multiversal Eternity had first been introduced by J.M. DeMatteis in a preceding old Defenders story during the late 1970s or early 1980s.
 
The entities then weren't really strong, it would take all their power plus villians just to destroy 1/3 of the universe.
 
I didn't mean the local entities, I meant the Marvel multiverse in its entirety and that multiversal Eternity had been established to exist before Secret Wars II.
 
Sorry I'm only using links and titles for proof.

User of Eternity Mask including Eternity as extension of the item can now qualify as plot manipulation user base on my research.

Marvel Comics Vol 1 1000-1001 issues establish Mask Eternity view reality as narrative/stories as Masked Raider explained and Eternity stated so basically it make "you" a reader of reality itself. ( https://***************.li/Comic/Marvel-Comics-2019/Issue-1000?id=160107 )

How to Read Comics the Marvel Way Vol 1 3-4 issues establish Spider-Man and Mysterio can travel between stories and manipulate them with the Eternity Mask it very meta tier in term of what gwenpool can do similarly. ( https://***************.li/Comic/How-To-Read-Comics-The-Marvel-Way/Issue-3?id=191244 )

DEFENDERS (2021) ISSUE #4-5 issues establish that with the Eternity Mask it act as plot armor that make you equal to any foe but only if your wearing it. ( https://***************.li/Comic/Defenders-2021/Issue-4?id=191702 )

Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 2-5 issues establish that America Chavez with the Eternity Mask can punch Post-Retcon Beyonder and fight him and Phoenix Force user which is outside the Un-Beyond and Beyond-Realm, which proves it a plot armor item but Beyonder can still overcome this plot armor user and the Beyonders can resist God of Story Female Loki plot control briefly and Loki explains that the Beyonders are stuck in a "narrative arc" yet post-retcon manage to not get stuck which proves his superiority to other Beyonders. The items also make you immune to reality warping user like Glorian who reside in the realm of "the land the couldn't-be-shouldn't be" which is outerversal level and he can reboot the continuity of reality and is impressed by Beyonder power, Loki can infuse the item to her broken horn to summon Queen of never to warp reality to defeat glorian and take them to the house of idea. ( https://***************.li/Comic/Defenders-Beyond/Issue-2?id=204138 )
 
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