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Plot Manipulation user (Marvel Comics)

SageF

SageF

247
24
Defenders: Beyond #1-5

Beyonder Post-Retcon: It was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own canonicity and is aware of his own pervious retcons. It's Shown Here ''Upon reaching the House, he hid himself until the Defenders finished their business. At the end, he proclaimed himself "The" Beyonder, freed himself from the House of Ideas, and stated that he would return on his own terms.''​

King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. King Loki was able to manipulate stories.
Wiccan as the Demiurge: Shown Here
 
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SageF said:

Queen of Nevers:​

Shown Here
Again Shown Here
Click to expand...
Reality warping not plot manipulation.
SageF said:
Here
Click to expand...
Looks like limited plot manipulation since he can rip apart stories.
SageF said:
Shown Here "The laws of narrative don't apply to the other Beyonders"
Click to expand...
Your scan didn't show it completely so i disagree...expect you post following pages of how the laws of narrative don't apply to other beyonders, but GOS loki should have plot manipulation. And that would be resistance for the beyonders which I'm still not convinced by your scan.
SageF said:
King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer
Click to expand...
Should be plot manipulation.
SageF said:
Eternity Mask aka Multi Eternity:
The mask contains part of a cosmic lineage stretching back to the first conflict of the story. And can see the narrative, The story. The whole. And sees that everything is made of narrative through space time. And Subconsciously ending the book in the same fashion. Eternity is a user.
Click to expand...
No plot manipulation here.
 
Vasco said:
Reality warping not plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
I'll accept this.
Vasco said:
Looks like limited plot manipulation since he can rip apart stories.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say he's limited. I was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious canonicity/retcons.
Vasco said:
Your scan didn't show it completely so i disagree...expect you post following pages of how the laws of narrative don't apply to other beyonders, but GOS loki should have plot manipulation. And that would be resistance for the beyonders which I'm still not convinced by your scan.
Click to expand...
Just read the third issue. So no Plot Manip resistance.
Vasco said:
Should be plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
Should also have a profile.
Vasco said:
No plot manipulation here.
Click to expand...
possibly Plot Manipulation. Another thread that support it.
 
SageF said:
I wouldn't say he's limited. I was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious canonicity/retcons.
Click to expand...
The first scan is reality warping and the second scan is him telling the story of secret wars, of how he came to know of the universe through Owen reece accident from his realm nothing there shows plot manipulation.

SageF said:
possibly Plot Manipulation. Another thread that support it.
Click to expand...
That thread doesn't prove anything and watching through space and time and it's narrative isn't plot manipulation. This is exactly what the watchers do infact.
 
Vasco said:
That thread doesn't prove anything and watching through space and time and it's narrative isn't plot manipulation. This is exactly what the watchers do infact.
Click to expand...
Eternity embodies spacetime, which is fiction in comparison to an aspect of him
Hence why we could make the assumption of a R>F interaction between Spacetime and Eternity
Which would be Plot Manipulation from what i understand
 
Since his outerversal and contains higher dimensions in his being and sees them as fiction/stories is enough R>F difference and having R>F difference doesn't grant plot manipulation.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
No plot manipulation.

Only beyonder can qualify either for possibly or straight up plot manipulation for ripping apart stories and GOS loki should also have plot manipulation. Nothing about scans brought for eternity is plot manipulation simply seeing space and time and narratives in them isn't plot manipulation.
 
“The ability to control the plot that governs reality”
Sees reality as fiction
And embodies said fictional reality

Any manipulation with reality is almost guaranteed to be on a narrative level
But, this wiki is too strict for this hax so whatever

As well as Eternity Mask being way too inconsistent anyways
 
Yes which Eternity didn't do in those scans shown only sees the stories in reality..similar to "watchers" nothing about controlling the plot.

Any manipulation with reality can be anything as we have many abilities in fiction, the wiki indeed has covered that as we have many manipulation pages.
The wiki isn't really strict, it gives characters the abilities they deserve, people just tend to wank things to favour verses they like or just mention the wrong manipulation for said ability done.

So far I only agree with beyonder limited or straight-up and GOS loki. Plus we need staffs input here.
 
 
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SageF said:
Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation




He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.
Click to expand...
I see no plot manipulation in the first 3 scans, nothing there is plot manipulation.
SageF said:
He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.
Click to expand...
No plot manipulation and beyonder wasn't even shown manipulating the story and that looks like 4th wall breaking for she-hulk.
 
The first 3 scans are 4th wall breaking/meta fiction for beyonder. And yes she-hulk can do that as well, but she can also defeat opponents by crumpling up the page, that plot manipulation. She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation user, she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance. It's Shown Here that both beyonder and GoS Loki have Immersion, from traveling between stories/realities from the first scan, second scan show Fictional Interaction, beyonder and GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation, unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters) and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.


Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.
 
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I see no 4th wall breaking in any of those scans infact unless you can clarify more, the she-hulk thing looks more like Toon force or limited plot manipulation.
SageF said:
She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation
Click to expand...
Proof

SageF said:
she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer.
Click to expand...
She-hulk thing looks gag like how characters talk to writers in multiple comic book all these are just joke ***** that happen time to time in comics and GOS loki thing can I see the scan?

SageF said:
. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance.
Click to expand...
No plot manipulation resistance and no scan.

SageF said:
GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation
Click to expand...
It's not plot manipulation, did you read the page of plot manipulation?

SageF said:
unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters)
Click to expand...
I don't see anything special of a fictional character interacting with another fictional character.

SageF said:
and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.
Click to expand...
It should grant limited plot manipulation but I haven't read the book so they might be additional context I might not know about.
SageF said:
Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.
Click to expand...
Only one of them was shown to resist his plot manipulation but the rest should probably scale also, I feel the reason why he resisted it is cause his greater than GOS loki. HOI vision has no plot manipulation.
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Did you check this page? Cause not all things that deal with comic or page or interacting with writers grant plot manipulation.
 
Well, it doesn't quite seem like plot manipulation to me either, just advanced 4th wall breaking.
 
Same also but GOS loki and post retcon beyonder should get( his should be limited, all he did was tear comics/stories) and the beyonders should probably get resistance also. She Hulk scans just look gag,toon force or advance 4th wall breaking. Anything else I'm not convinced at all. We'd need more staff inputs.
 
Immersion: Beyonder (Pre/Post-Retcon), GoS Loki, HOI Vision, The One Above All and Multi Eternity via Eternity Mask, Deadpool with the Continuity Gem and She-Hulk (Classics); formerly
Plot Resistance: The Beyonders (Ivory King), Beyonder (Post-Retcon); scaling from the other beyonders and GoS Loki
Toon Force: She-Hulk (Classics); formerly
Plot Manipulation: Beyonder (Post-Retcon); limited, GoS Loki, Wiccan as the Demiurge, (Remove Doctor Doom and Molecule Man
as a user)
 
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We'd need staffs to check to conclude.
SageF said:
Plot Resistance: The Beyonders (Ivory King), Beyonder (Post-Retcon); scaling from the other beyonders and GoS Loki
Click to expand...
Especially on this cause it seems he resisted it cause his greater/more powerful than loki that's why I am unsure about the resistance. Plus why will GOS loki have it?


SageF said:
Deadpool with the Continuity Gem
Click to expand...
This wasn't talked about in this thread.

SageF said:
Wiccan as the Demiurge
Click to expand...
Can you remind me of the scan that makes him have plot manipulation?
 
Vasco said:
We'd need staffs to check to conclude.

Especially on this cause it seems he resisted it cause his greater/more powerful than loki that's why I am unsure about the resistance. Plus why will GOS loki have it?
Click to expand...
Apparently one was kill by blue marvel anti matter, but they can regenerate from cosmic energy engine. God of Stories Loki isn't affected by the writer retcon.
Vasco said:
This wasn't talked about in this thread.


Can you remind me of the scan that makes him have plot manipulation?
Click to expand...
Deadpool can qualify for Immersion since he killed his creator. (Wiccan) He's manipulating the actual panels of the comic itself.
 
SageF said:
It was stated and proven that he was capable manipulating his own continuity and is aware of his own pervious retcons. It'sShown Here ''Upon reaching the House, he hid himself until the Defenders finished their business. At the end, he proclaimed himself "The" Beyonder, freed himself from the House of Ideas, and stated that he would return on his own terms.''
Click to expand...
I am not sure this constitutes plot manipulation, it just seems to suggest that what we consider his "retcons" are explained in-verse by his reality manipulation. Can you specify the source of each of these scans?

SageF said:
King Loki as the God of Stories:
King Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. King Loki was able to manipulate stories.
Eternity Mask aka Multi Eternity:
The mask contains part of a cosmic lineage stretching back to the first conflict of the story. And can see the narrative, The story. The whole. And sees that everything is made of narrative through space time. And ending the book in the same fashion. Eternity is a user.
Click to expand...

This seems figurative. Writing one's own story isn't always meta.
 
Vasco said:
No 4th wall breaking as loki didn't interact with readers or anything, just narration talking about him.
Click to expand...
I meant for the Eternity through Eternity Mask it view reality a mere fiction.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
I'm sure it's already on Eternity profile since his outerversal and sees the universe/multiverse as fiction, the Eternity mask scans above you sent have nothing on R-F difference just viewing the stories of the multiverse, which isn't R-F difference.
 
GOS loki should have plot manipulation( I'm talking of the scan he affected a beyonder)
The beyonders should have a possibly resistance since of of them could resist his plot manipulation(but it could be the resistance came cause they are more powerful like loki himself said)
She-hulk toon force and 4th wall breaking, but I think these should already be on her profile.
SageF said:
Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.
Click to expand...
And i see this as fate manipulation since he can control their lives but let's here other's input on it.
 
What's in the OP seems to have been debunked though he brought new scans and suggestions which me and deagonx answered also but here they are.
SageF said:
Could we remove Doctor Doom as Plot Manipulation user? The Prime Mover (Can control reality as if it were a chessboard, dictating the actions of others, and can retroactively remake the lives of others, as proven by when he made it so that he had always been a thoughtform created from the darker side of Reed's mind)

That more of Data Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.
Click to expand...
SageF said:
Deadpool with the Continuity Gem has this https://i.stack.imgur.com/HXxA7.jpg
Click to expand...
SageF said:
Beyonder should have straight up Plot Manipulation





He does a similar feat from She Hulk another plot controller, she resist it as well along with GoS Loki. https://imgur.io/a/yZA1l6f
Beyonder could also interact with the comic book characters shown in Defender: Beyond #5.
Click to expand...
SageF said:
The first 3 scans are 4th wall breaking/meta fiction for beyonder. And yes she-hulk can do that as well, but she can also defeat opponents by crumpling up the page, that plot manipulation. She-hulk and GoS Loki can both negate/resist the affect of Plot Manipulation user, she-hulk forced her writer to rewrite her story and GoS Loki was able to negate a retcon from a writer. The pre-retcon beyonder is aware of the writer/publishers and can threatening them so that possibly plot resistance. It's Shown Here that both beyonder and GoS Loki have Immersion, from traveling between stories/realities from the first scan, second scan show Fictional Interaction, beyonder and GoS Loki can seemly interact with fictional characters inside those stories which is a sub-set for Plot Manipulation, unlike 4th wall breaking the user isn't interacting with the audience or aware there a fictional character, but instead interacting with fictional character only (ex. talking to said fictional characters) and lastly the third scan show Fiction Destruction, for example beyonder torning comic books another sub-set for Plot Manipulation.


Note: Although the other beyonders were stuck in a narrative arc caused by GoS Loki revealed by beyonder himself, they were still able to briefly resist the the affect of GoS Loki plot power, so plot resistance not plot immunity. Vision: only inside the House of Ideas, can create fictional superhero so he's a user.
Click to expand...
 
Information Manipulation and Plot Manipulation (As stated here.[25] And created a TV screen in his own domain to watch a story he specifically made for Galactus so he would understand what he needs to do in order to win[25])

That Technology Manipulation with Information Manipulation. My god his profile need a manage clean up.

Also current beyonder should scale above current molecule man since the who thing involving molecule man was a mere experiment.

Beyonder can un-retcon himself should count as reality manipulation, causality manipulation/acausality and possibly plot manipulation. Should have all the abilities of pre-retcon beyonder abilities since he is the beyonder.
 
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