Pizza Man fights the entirety of Final Fantasy

[Theglassman12]

@GilverTheProtoAngelo 2-A BFR, that's not something Dante resists on that level, nor does he have the range to come back from it. Especially when it's from opening a portal that sucks you inside of it to the Void itself.

@RedReaper he didn't kill cerberus, otherwise how exactly was he able to talk to dante after the fight and just give him his soul?

Again the scan mentions Chen being hit by an anti magic bullets, nothing mentioned him being unable to heal.

Being beaten by Vergil doesn't prove regen negation because if it did neg his regen, he would still have a hole in his chest being unable to heal when he got stabbed by Vergil.

What does the Cerberus fight have anything to do with Dante lacking stamina here? Him losing his heads didn't imply a loss in stamina unless you have scans for that.

Which scan exactly are you referring to?

1:18 of this video.

His RE isn't helping him against abilities he's never resisted before that has layers he'd need to bypass. Like subjective reality which is one of the basic hax for magic in FF. Him needing time to adapt to abilities he's never encountered before while fighting a being who can evolve with an endless army that can evolve individually and render themselves unable to die isn't really helping Dante here.

Yeah the scan on demons being scared of dante doesn't really tell me it's fear hax, just them being intimidated by him being that strong. Also paralysis is resisted by the creator so that's not helping Dante.

Again, killing demons with these types of immortality isn't helping much against the Creator, who resists immortality negation on those levels and has immortality Dante has feats of negating so he's not killing the creator.

@Tony_di_bugalu very limited mid godly which is again kind of important here.

him having low tier demon physiology says otherwise.

That sounds more like PIS if Majin DT can't heal his wounds but pseudo DT can than mere RE.

Which attacks, the one Vergil does? Because he didn't get stabbed in the chest again by Vergil in that game or in the later games.

Since when? They don't have that in demon physiology at all or in their pages, that's exclusively sparda heritage to neg regen.

V literally says that Nelo suffering defeat after defeat his body was being worn down. Not that Dante had a special ability to neg his regen, which makes sense because Vergil's not vergil in 1, just Nelo angelo, a completely different being.

Dante never got the chance to hurt Mundus before activating DSS.

Again you missed the point of my argument, where does it remotely imply reactive evolution and not just being stronger and gaining an ability through another means? If we're seriously going to argue reactive evolution for dante getting new abilities then everyone in the wiki gets reactive evolution for the same reason.

Stuff in the demon world can kill demons, not demons themselves, that's like saying we naturally scale to weapons we make in the real world because they can kill other human beings.

Punching someone to knock them out doesn't remotely mean you negged their regen. Unless you wanna say knocking Cell out somehow means regen negging despite him still being able to heal.

Both Regen and Immortality negation layers I call cap because I don't see resistance to immortality negation for these demons, nor do I see regen neg resistance for them.

Prove he dodges moves that happen inside of his body, if you can't then you're pushing to NLF. And again, Type 2 and 4 precognition isn't something Dante's able to deal with.

Precog will let him land the move on Dante easily, same with him landing any and all abilities he needs to affect dante.

 

[RedReaper]

1) Okaaaaay, but that doesn’t defeat the point. Cerberus is a mid tier demon. Has High Godly. His heads were permanently removed and could not regenerate. That’s negation. Very clear cut.

2) Except like, the scan directly states the Beastheads were trying to save itself from Chen’s dying body-Or at least that he didn’t seem interested in dying like he was supposed to after that strike. The Beastheads are what allowed him to live that extra moment and take the Anti-Magic Bullet that killed him.

3) That’s still not actually invalidating the point? In fact, that’s ignoring it. The Vergil fights directly serve to show their regeneration. In fact, they seem purposely designed so that we, the audience who has played as the nigh-unstoppable Dante can realize Vergil is a threat that can actually put us down. FURTHER, you directly undermined the point of that paragraph. Dante lost, was negged and was out of it, his wounds didn’t leave. His powers were awakened by Rebellion, bam he’s back up.

4) Your statement essentially was, “Show me a visual feat where the damage actually lasted, show me visual evidence of regeneration not working.” The Cerberus feat achieves that. It is a visual feat indicative of Dante able to do damage to a Mid Tier Demon (which has High Godly) and it not regenerate. That is exactly what that is. But in the point where you address this, you specifically wrote it off as “so it’s an inconsistency,” In other words, you asked, I provided an example of said query already, and you called it an inconsistency. This implies that if I did the exact same thing, gave you an identical feat, it wouldn’t matter to you, because it did not do so beforehand.

5) DMC2 Scan, the evolution to gain Demon World Resistance Scan, the Anti-Magic Evolution scan, etc. All of these are indexed. Just go to the Demon Physiology page and look at them.

6) Thank you.

7) His RE has worked on everything it has had to go up against. It doesn’t function like a standard Zenkai boost or something-It active does what the Creator does but better. It gives him new abilities, it grants him new resistances, it increases his power, it amplifies his skills/experience, etc. Saying Dante’s evolution is limited to only one series of events or one type of evolutionary process, or simply on things he has only experienced before, (which technically undermines the whole point of his evolving, which is designed to take things he has not experienced before and allow him to beat and kill them). Dante’s evolution has also uh, taken a lot less time than the Creator. Considering he’s immeasurable in speed and the like, (not to mention his evolution at times has displayed itself to be ******* instantaneous on occasion, which makes sense giving he’s evolving while fighting at a speed “faster than the dimensional axis of time”) means the “time” Dante needs to evolve against the Creator is completely null and void.

8) Cough I said switching to his real name caused it, not strength. There’s also the fact that looking at V with a semi serious glare made him freeze up in terror, and V can resist the Demon World’s Fear inducement and fearhax. Dante’s aura alone can force other Demons to flee, and even if you don’t want my word on it, AGAIN, the Demon physiology page says OTHERWISE.

9) Cough You still haven’t actually disproved layers, and even if you had the RE is enough to cancel this point, as this IS an ability “Dante has experienced before.” Cough.

Also, as Gilver stated, the abilities in themselves being VALID isn’t up for debate. This isn’t a CRT, and everything we’ve said so far IS ACCEPTED. The main concern here is if Creator has any way of getting around what we have established, which ultimately at the moment does not seem to be the case.

 

[Theglassman12]

the main argument I'm asking here is proof for reactive evolution, not just regen negation. Cerberus losing his heads doesn't tell me reactive evolution.

And what killed him was the anti magic bullets, not dante, so this isn't reactive evolution.

Do you see any wounds on Dante's body that stayed when vergil stabbed him? Because I don't see any, which doesn't tell me he got negged with healing. And again, having rebellion wake him up isn't proof for reactive evolution, just him unlocking his powers.

Ok, cerberus not healing is a regen negation feat, that's not a reactive evolution feat like you and tony keep throwing around.

Just post the scans here, there's hundreds of scans in that blog and I'm not sitting through the entire blog to find the ones you're referring to.

Actually hold on, where the hell does the RE say they gain new powers? The only statements and scans it has is just letting them resist abilities.

V getting scared didn't amount to much beyond him being scared, that's again not really helping much against the creator.

where did he experience subjective reality and resistance negation? I'd love to see that. Because he lacks both in his page and Demon physiology, making him vulnerable to these abilities.

You do realize I can flip the script and argue it doesn't seem to be the case for dante negging creator because he lacks layers of immortality negation right? Just saying it doesn't seem to be the case when both sides have an argument here isn't a way to debunk an argument.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@GilverTheProtoAngelo 2-A BFR, that's not something Dante resists on that level, nor does he have the range to come back from it. Especially when it's from opening a portal that sucks you inside of it to the Void itself.

That's range, not potency.

@Tony_di_bugalu very limited mid godly which is again kind of important here.

him having low tier demon physiology says otherwise.

Some things before I proceed. 1. He will get that regen when the update happens (if it ever happens). 2. The limited part is because demons have to cross the seal and only small shit can cross or minds/souls, something Gilver didn't have to do as Mundus sent him directly there, whole demon, not just the soul to get random shit to create a body. 3. Even if Gilver was only a soul for some reason, he could have crossed completely since the nexus was right there, he made the thing. 4. It's regen, Gilver is getting back the chunks of armor Dante is tearing off, which is another layer and more showcase of regen negg and RE.

You know how the scan specifically says "all but the weakest of demons". The weakest of the series being the sins, the empusas, the fodder demons in Mundus army (assault, frost, blades), the msira, the marionette, the magnitude of demons in Vol1 that Gilver summons, the scarecrows, etc.

Gilver is far from the weakest, BtN tells you how he is a specially strong demons made with the data of the twins and sparda.

That sounds more like PIS if Majin DT can't heal his wounds but pseudo DT can than mere RE.

Except it isn't. Majin happens mid-way the second volume, pseudo DT happens near the end after the sword awakens for the first time, super consistent with what happens in Dante vs Vergil 1.

Basically more RE.

Which attacks, the one Vergil does? Because he didn't get stabbed in the chest again by Vergil in that game or in the later games.

All of them. Ah yeah, he gets his torso cut in half and he regens immediately in their second fight, we don't know much about the third besides Dante bulldozing Vergil, same with the others. You even have a call back of this in 5 and Dante is fine.

It's not like he even needs to do a specific attack to negate regeneration.

Since when? They don't have that in demon physiology at all or in their pages, that's exclusively sparda heritage to neg regen.

Since ever, that we ****** up making the page is a different problem, not that they lack the ability.

V literally says that Nelo suffering defeat after defeat his body was being worn down. Not that Dante had a special ability to neg his regen, which makes sense because Vergil's not vergil in 1, just Nelo angelo, a completely different being.

Logic 101, the only defeats Vergil has suffered that let a major impact on his ass were against Dante, the very last fight he has before he dies is against Dante. This coupled with the obvious fact that Dante can negate regeneration is telling enough on its own.

Vergil is Nelo Angelo, there is no changing that. His very soul is trapped in the armor, just because his body is different doesn't mean his soul changed (the name did but the soul is more important), more so when he was actively fighting back Mundus control all the time and only stopped when he was given the amulet back.

Dante never got the chance to hurt Mundus before activating DSS.

And he gets the chance after that when he left the sword away, guess what? Nothing he does works.

Again you missed the point of my argument, where does it remotely imply reactive evolution and not just being stronger and gaining an ability through another means? If we're seriously going to argue reactive evolution for dante getting new abilities then everyone in the wiki gets reactive evolution for the same reason.

You missed the point. You are assuming that just because he is stronger he can suddenly negate regeneration but we both know it doesn't work like that. His ability has to grow/evolve/whatever to match the regeneration/resistance he couldn't bypass previously.

Now, Idk about the rest of the wiki but Dante has several feats of doing this all through the series. This goes perfectly with him not being able to injure Mundus and now he can kill his equal with no problem.

Stuff in the demon world can kill demons, not demons themselves, that's like saying we naturally scale to weapons we make in the real world because they can kill other human beings.

Wah, wrong. Stuff that has demonic energy can kill demons, other demons, weapons made with demons bodies, weapons made with demon world materials, etc.

That comparison doesn't work when several pieces of the franchise tell us directly that nothing can harm demons except demonic stuff (and thank god they are the most recent ones). A gun can kill me and I can kill someone with my hands, a gun can't kill a demon but demons can kill each other the difference is because demons have demonic energy.

Punching someone to knock them out doesn't remotely mean you negged their regen. Unless you wanna say knocking Cell out somehow means regen negging despite him still being able to heal.

So, to get into a comma you need to suffer some kind of injury or illness or some other thing that affects the brain. This is brain damage, in the case of Dante it is because of the power unleashed when he broke the barrier. Last I checked in the wiki this kind of damage is irrelevant to Low-High regeneration, Dante is supposed to have this or higher levels of regeneration. He, by all means, should be able to walk something like that off like it was nothing and in fact he has done so in the past, both in DMC3 and Vol 1.

To think that he can't regenerate or heal the level of brain damage he suffered because he got pushed, a way less severe form of damage than getting filled with led, is just wrong. Not to mention the cell example doesn't work because almost no one in DB has regeneration.

Both Regen and Immortality negation layers I call cap because I don't see resistance to immortality negation for these demons, nor do I see regen neg resistance for them.

And I already pointed above how they actually have them, just because they don't have pages yet and the current ones are a mess doesn't mean the feats are bunk and irrelevant.

Prove he dodges moves that happen inside of his body, if you can't then you're pushing to NLF. And again,

HAHAHAHAHAHAH you activated my ******* trap card. Do you want me the post the novel pages here or send them in discord? Oh, better yet, I will copy the text and post them in a big ass spoiler below.

Spoiler

The door opened of its own accord as they got closer. The portal revealed an almost palpable darkness. Beryl imagined she could feel hot breath all around her. At least, she hoped she imagined it. Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?" Something rumbled an answer from the darkness. Dante and Beryl stepped inside the void and vanished. Vol. 2 p. 140

Beryl heard it. The laughter echoed through the void, a sound so dark that it couldn't be human. The staccato rhythm grated on her nerves. p.142

Dante had vanished the moment they stepped through the portal. At least, Beryl assumed he had. The blackness was so thick that it seemed to devour light; even Beryl's hand remained imperceptible when held in front of her face. The void left her useless; it was all she could do to keep herself together. Occasionally she would catch an intuitive flash. Somehow she knew that Dante was out there in the void, fighting the King of the Underworld himself in a desperate battle. Waves of power radiated from the coagulated darkness...Dante and Mundus clashing for the first time-in this world. Beryl was bitterly ashamed of bragging about her abilities. Her imprudence had cost Dante an ally and opened her up to attack from all sides. It was almost as if the chamber was unwilling to countenance any trespasser not worthy of the demon king. And it had found her worth lacking. p143

Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack. p. 144

"I didn't think it would be this easy." Dante laughed. He nimbly danced around the most lethal attacks and then made another play for the demon king. Attacking Mundus in his own keep had proven a masterstroke. The creature could scarcely comprehend the assault. p. 145

This guy isn't touching Dante

Type 2 and 4 precognition isn't something Dante's able to deal with. Precog will let him land the move on Dante easily, same with him landing any and all abilities he needs to affect dante.

He already dealt with type 4, on higher levels mind you.
Precog that can see the future of someone that doesn't have a future vs precog that can see futures that are considered impossible. They sound like the same thing to me but I'll concede. It won't be enough to tag Dante anyways.


Now, you said I was pulling some NLF up there but all through this debate you haven't posted a single reason for why this guy will tank Dante's attacks, just saying he can and he will but haven't posted any reasoning behind it. Now you can say "go and read the profiles" but the only thing I can find that is a High-Godly feat is that exdeath and Enou (who share the same baseline feat) got yeeted by the void, came back and they were killed by the crystals.

Literally the most baseline feat, no layers, no anything. So who's the one actually pulling some NLF here?

 

[Theglassman12]

Range beyond Dante's level, which you admit he doesn't have a good resistance to since he still gets BFR'd.

Where the hell does him getting armor pieces back RE? Can you for once give any scans at all that they literally adapt and evolve? Because I don't see any here, especially for Gilver.

And again he's still a low tier demon, that just proves he can control low tier demons, not that he's a mid tier or higher.

No it's not, why would Majin DT, which is far superior than normal DT not heal him? Give me a scan that says that he evolved to the point his weaker DT can heal things that his previous stronger state couldn't.

Where exactly is the deep stab in that clip? Because there's just random slashes that just doesn't look very lethal.

So you need a CRT for that, until then that's not really helping here.

His name changing would alter his being and powers, so he wouldn't be the same Vergil Dante fought in 3.

Because he's low energy and needed Trish to amp him to use sealing on Mundus?

And are those feats actual statements of evolution? Because that's kind of important when listing off these random feats for RE. And again, why are we assuming him getting a new ability is RE and not just him getting a new ability?

Ah yes because Nico's Van is totally a demonic weapon or material from hell, or a cigarette.

Cell being one of the few people in DB is irrelevant when you have characters knock him out despite having regen on that level.

No you haven't. Especially for the immortality the creator has which demons lack.

Void Mundus not having precognition isn't the same as a dude with higher tier precognition that can predict where Dante's going to be, so yes he will be hit, especially from magic that starts off by affecting his body and lacks travel time.

Ah yes, let's ignore how Enuo lacks resistance to his regen and immortality being negged, as opposed to Exdeath who has literal cutscene statements of being unkillable to the Dawn Warriors, where it took the FF5 crew to kill him, the same crew that the creator scales to with abilities as he has all of their powers.

 

[RedReaper]

Range beyond Dante's level, which you admit he doesn't have a good resistance to since he still gets BFR'd.

Where the hell does him getting armor pieces back RE? Can you for once give any scans at all that they literally adapt and evolve? Because I don't see any here, especially for Gilver.

And again he's still a low tier demon, that just proves he can control low tier demons, not that he's a mid tier or higher.

No it's not, why would Majin DT, which is far superior than normal DT not heal him? Give me a scan that says that he evolved to the point his weaker DT can heal things that his previous stronger state couldn't.

Where exactly is the deep stab in that clip? Because there's just random slashes that just doesn't look very lethal.

So you need a CRT for that, until then that's not really helping here.

His name changing would alter his being and powers, so he wouldn't be the same Vergil Dante fought in 3.

Because he's low energy and needed Trish to amp him to use sealing on Mundus?

And are those feats actual statements of evolution? Because that's kind of important when listing off these random feats for RE. And again, why are we assuming him getting a new ability is RE and not just him getting a new ability?

Ah yes because Nico's Van is totally a demonic weapon or material from hell, or a cigarette.

Cell being one of the few people in DB is irrelevant when you have characters knock him out despite having regen on that level.

No you haven't. Especially for the immortality the creator has which demons lack.

Void Mundus not having precognition isn't the same as a dude with higher tier precognition that can predict where Dante's going to be, so yes he will be hit, especially from magic that starts off by affecting his body and lacks travel time.

Ah yes, let's ignore how Enuo lacks resistance to his regen and immortality being negged, as opposed to Exdeath who has literal cutscene statements of being unkillable to the Dawn Warriors, where it took the FF5 crew to kill him, the same crew that the creator scales to with abilities as he has all of their powers.

In the Demon Physiology page, first Sparda Inheritance lines.

Their initial Powers and Abilities are:​

• Accelerated Development (Passive, Skill, Battle, Physical and Abilities) (Capable of gaining immensely high results by simply doing their normal activities, like when Nero trained for one month to get stronger to face Urizen once again, by simply killing demons, something that Dante and Vergil also do in a daily basis or just by merely existing like their father Sparda, who decided to seal his powers away because he was fearing how powerful he was growing through by just his mere existence[71]. They are capable of becoming much stronger, faster and more skilled when they are in middle of combat, after a battle or after being defeated, like when Dante was able to improve his skills extremely fast in combat and was also shown to be capable of noticing patterns in his opponent's style and adapt to fight accordingly, even against demons like the Black Knights, who have command of techniques that allow them to spot patterns far beyond their opponent's abilities[72], and the Black Knights were created by Mundus to kill Dante and Vergil after carefully studying how Dante, Vergil and Sparda fight[73].
• Reactive Evolution: They can adapt to anything that doesn't kill them instantly, gaining new powers, abilities and resistances against corresponding threats in mere seconds, like when Dante adapted to the hazardous environment of the Demon World in his base form to overcome its effects. Vergil was shown to be capable of adapting to a dangerous demonic illusion created by a Sin that is capable of driving normal people into insanity[74]. They are also shown being capable of adapting to others' different types of powers and abilities when they transform to their demon forms, like when Dante was able to adapt by transforming instinctively to fight off Alice when she was sucking his life force[75], or when Dante was capable of instinctively adapting by semi-transforming to fight off a Sin when he was stripping away his blood[65]. They are easily able to adapt to and overcome attacks that are able to destroy their souls.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Why why why?? Why such big big big essays..... I wanna cry now.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

want to cry too, i'm so lazy to read all of this, just want to end the battle

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Theglassman12

Range still isn't potency. Not like it matters anyways.


I posted both type of feats, dante bypassing the regen on his own or evolving mid battle to do so. This feat is not about RE but him bypassing his regen with decons.
I already gave you everything, if you are going to ignore it there is no point in posting again.


And he isn't one of the weakest demons the scan says, so he scales. But dontcha worry, we will eventually change that.

Reactive Evolution is the name. Again you don't need to be spoon feed statements to know what is happening, just seeing how Dante went from getting injured and unable to heal to healing in a pseudo awakened form is enough to tell you he is evolving to match the circumstances, something we see all through DMC3.


cut through the torso, not lethal for him because RE is kicking in

We don't need to? Its a common ability as every scan says, just because we messed up doesn't mean we need to go through another CRT just to move something from one section to another. So yeah, its really happening here.


Fair enough, after that he became monstrously stronger and tougher, and we know Mundus wouldn't mess with his abilities as he wanted strong servants. He just wanted full control over Vergil.
In short, he is way better than the vergil in 3, hence being able to stand up to Dante in DMC1.


How is being low on energy a counter to him not leaving lasting damage on mundus? Being tired, spent and out of energy doesn't stop their abilities from working, less so the ones that are passive to them.


Yes they are, that's why I listed them instead of a bunch of other random feats he performs all through the series. Unlike RPGs or other games when the MC gets the ability after they beat the boss, Dante does in the middle of combat, it happens in response to whatever enemy or situation he is dealing with.


Nice fallacy there bro. You can see in the opening cutscene how the army itself gets bulldozed and run over by the empusas, the lowest of the demons. Just because Nico and her van provide a comic relief doesn't mean all the other feats and statements are now bunk.


Wut? Cell was never knocked out, neither buu or any other character who can pull the level of regeneration I mentioned above so this is a really bad comparison.


Just from a quick look i saw that Dante can negate immortality type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. This guy won't stand a single hit.


Void Mundus having or not precog is irrelevant, he still was attacking Dante, its like the air itself attacks you and he still dodged everything. Chen who could still precog Dante up to the middle of the fight had trouble attacking and tagging Dante.
The creator having precog is literally irrelevant as he won't be able to do shit, Dante will dodge. But since you are on it imma make a thread to ask about it :v


Tbf you are ignoring my points so ignoring yours is fair game not like they are even good to begin with :v
So? Exdeath is 1 layer then. Even if we assume the creator is 1 layer above exdeath that's still way too little against Dante who does this shit on layers upon layers.

 

[Theglassman12]

@RedReaper yeah that's still not making new abilities on the fly, just being stronger and more skilled. Same with RE as the only scans is just resisting abilities.

@Tony_di_bugalu Ok so it's not reactive evolution, just mid godly negation.

For something extreme as evolving yes you'd need statements for someone evolving for this to be a consistent thing, otherwise this is just a NLF.

Again, none of the slashes look lethal since they don't pierce through vital parts of the body.

That's not how it works, you need a CRT for this to be an argument to use, otherwise it's not really applicable.

Yeah, being stronger, that doesn't mean he has all of Vergil's innate abilities when he explodes into flames whenever he gets his ass kicked, something Vergil never does when losing.

You're arguing he couldn't do lasting damage on mundus before DSS, something he literally did not do because Mundus didn't let him attack in the first place before DSS kicked in.

These random feats with no statements or implications that he literally evolves to gain these abilities or have his abilities be stronger isn't really helping your case for RE.

The fact they have a scene at all of random objects in the human world hurting the demons tells me otherwise that it's consistent that only demonic materials or things in the demon world can harm/kill them.

Buu got knocked out by Beerus in Super despite being able to regen from vapor. That doesn't give Beerus regen negging, that just makes him strong enough to knock him out, same with the Urizen punch to Dante.

Immortality Negation (Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8; Despite being blessed by the crystals in their final fight, the After Years cast weren't able to negate the Creator's regeneration and immortality, as he continued to heal and multiply)

Ah yes, because this totally doesn't exist in the creator's page nor does him having type 9 immortality exist, making immortality negation completely irrelevant for Dante.

Did Chen have feats of affecting type 2 and 4 Acausal beings with precognition? No? Then tough shit Dante's not resisting something made to affect specific beings naturally immune to these kinds of precognition. Seeing countless futures doesn't mean anything to a person that lacks a future to begin with. Same with Void Mundus as he lacks the precognition.

All demons that aren't literal fodder have the same level of regen, that's not layers upon layers when they share the same level of regen across one another, so Dante negging them when they lack any feats that render them unneggable before isn't that impressive.

 

[Stillwinston]

Creator has to use the bathroom in the back FRA

Just to say to OP was voting Dante there btw

 

[RedReaper]

@RedReaper yeah that's still not making new abilities on the fly, just being stronger and more skilled. Same with RE as the only scans is just resisting abilities.

@Tony_di_bugalu Ok so it's not reactive evolution, just mid godly negation.

For something extreme as evolving yes you'd need statements for someone evolving for this to be a consistent thing, otherwise this is just a NLF.

Again, none of the slashes look lethal since they don't pierce through vital parts of the body.

That's not how it works, you need a CRT for this to be an argument to use, otherwise it's not really applicable.

Yeah, being stronger, that doesn't mean he has all of Vergil's innate abilities when he explodes into flames whenever he gets his ass kicked, something Vergil never does when losing.

You're arguing he couldn't do lasting damage on mundus before DSS, something he literally did not do because Mundus didn't let him attack in the first place before DSS kicked in.

These random feats with no statements or implications that he literally evolves to gain these abilities or have his abilities be stronger isn't really helping your case for RE.

The fact they have a scene at all of random objects in the human world hurting the demons tells me otherwise that it's consistent that only demonic materials or things in the demon world can harm/kill them.

Buu got knocked out by Beerus in Super despite being able to regen from vapor. That doesn't give Beerus regen negging, that just makes him strong enough to knock him out, same with the Urizen punch to Dante.


Ah yes, because this totally doesn't exist in the creator's page nor does him having type 9 immortality exist, making immortality negation completely irrelevant for Dante.

Did Chen have feats of affecting type 2 and 4 Acausal beings with precognition? No? Then tough shit Dante's not resisting something made to affect specific beings naturally immune to these kinds of precognition. Seeing countless futures doesn't mean anything to a person that lacks a future to begin with. Same with Void Mundus as he lacks the precognition.

All demons that aren't literal fodder have the same level of regen, that's not layers upon layers when they share the same level of regen across one another, so Dante negging them when they lack any feats that render them unneggable before isn't that impressive.

1) I'm conceding the point here, mainly because that's the Demon Physiology page, which is accepted anyway and ultimately means for the purposes of this debate it's valid anyway, unless a CRT removes it. And that doesn't do much to stop him gaining resistances, which was the main point of discussing RE to begin with.

2) Okay, gonna skip some points because I'm tired of today at the moment, so I'll just answer the ones I can.

We showed you blatant and consistent feats of RE. The only thing that's not in the feat is the text in bold, "I evolved." Instead it has Dante do something identical to evolution, credits his heritage for it and moves on because they frankly don't care about articulating every single random power Dante has. That's the job of VSBW. It's also written like stories are written. It says things and lets the reader fill in the gap. But we can clearly see it's evolution given Dante either A) Gains the new power/resistance/strength/skill mid combat, B) It highlights that Dante can't do something and then seconds later due to this stimulus Dante can miraculously achieve the feat, (like how Dante supposedly was completely weakened by the Demon World and then not moments later he was back up and moving as if nothing happened, or how Dante's Majin DT Regen didn't work but suddenly later without explanation other than his consistently implied evolutionary capacity his Pseudo DT regen works just fine.)

Buu and Dante's scenarios are inherently different. Beerus hit Buu and Buu was put into a nap that ended later that day. Urizen hit Dante and Dante was put into a month long coma you then provided scans of him needing an EXTERNAL SOURCE to help regenerate and resuscitate himself from. Like, if Dante really needed help to get back up, does that not imply his regeneration COULDN'T COVER it, knocked out or not?

Vergil and Nelo Angelo having the same abilities or not is a moot point because the keys state "all previous at a higher level" for DMC1 and DMC5 Vergil. The only extra thing stated about DMC1 in reference to DMC3 Vergil is he doesn't have Yamato and Force Edge anymore. And then for DMC5 he's accepted to have all the abilities of DMC1 Vergil, or Nelo Angelo. The way he ended up dying is kinda...irrelevant? In DMC3 it's clear we didn't kill him. We merely beat him and he let himself fall. In DMC1 the whole understanding there was we KILLED HIM. That's inherently different. In fact, we killed Vergil so badly that his inherent High Godly regen was put on the backburner for 10 years. V's statement does say "defeat after defeat," but in the first clash Nelo Won and the second they essentially were at a draw. The third battle is Nelo's defeat, and if you want to consider the ones prior that either invalidates your point or is considered irrelevant anyway considering Nelo was in peak condition in the first encounter. Further, even if we say Nelo considered all of those defeats...uh...all were from Dante short 1. It'd be more fallacious to say Nelo was unaffected somehow by what you've already conceded is Regeneration Negation, so V/Nelo is perfectly viable here.

Even with this in mind, that doesn't change the fact Demon World items specifically meant to kill Demons didn't work on Dante. Not sure why you're debating this. It's stated these items are specially designed to kill Demons. They don't work on Dante, but will kill other weaker Demons. Obviously, Dante is above whatever you want to consider those at.

Demon Physiology Page says High Tier Demon Regen > Mid Tier, and again I showed you a scan that literally has a Demon show higher Regen via tethering to its prey to come back even if it's legitimately killed, and Dante can neg that. I don't see how you can still disagree here. It's clear cut. Set. Valid. And furthermore, accepted.


We already conceded the Type 2, but Type 4 we already stated not only doesn't work but is layered. Not to mention Dante can fight an Omnipresent entity in Void Mundus, Dante has items that literally make him untouchable/instant dodging, and his Instinctive Reactions can catch things he himself can't perceive. However, we again did state the Type 2 was a completely valid point.

 

[Theglassman12]

I have my own problems regarding the Demon physiology page and how certain things are handled but I'll save that for later, for now I'll just stop with the debating and let this finish.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Alright, it's voting time. reading every side. I think I'll side with The Creator being more likely to win in this. fra

 

[Stillwinston]

I'm curious would The Outsider be at all viable versus The Creator? He did Incon with Dante iirc

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm curious would The Outsider be at all viable versus The Creator? He did Incon with Dante iirc

Probably? The only reason that was an incon is because Dante doesn't have the range to deal with him or nuke the whole void... but now he has some weird form of 9D range so it likely won't hold up

 

[Theglassman12]

@Stillwinston unless there's something I'm missing with the Outsider's page I don't really see much he has that can counter the creator.

 

[RedReaper]

Bump.

 

[RedReaper]

Question, how many layers of fear hax resistance does the Creator have?

 

[Theglassman12]

Several due to having resistance against the Lunar summons who bypass naturally resistance to empathic hax and Mind hax.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Not enough to deal with Dante

 

[RedReaper]

Let’s actually
Break it down first before we make claims like that. Several is vague enough that such an assertion could be wrong.

Let’s get Dante’s layers out of the way.

Demons inherently can cause fear manip and resist the fear manip of other Demons.
Each tier has better fear hax.

(Demons also inherently resist the DW’s fearhax, which is > Most demons, the exception being you’re one of the more powerful Demons in the verse. So 2 Layers right off the bat.)

Dante was able to cause fear hax to low tier demons by merely switching to his real name. (3)

In DMC: PoC Dante is even more powerful. By this time Dante has moved from Low Tier Demon Heritage to High Tier Demon Heritage. (5, {2 was added due to 1 per tier}.)

Chen’s most loyal employers were completely fine against normal Dante, but as soon as he got serious his aura was so potent they fled. (6)

Beryl was able to fight alongside said serious Dante, but Alternate/Void Mundus made her fall in Terror. Dante meanwhile was able to fight him all alone. (Showing his resistance does scale to his Fearhax potency.)

V could withstand the presence of high tier Demons and the Demon World, but in Visions of V Dante made him freeze in fear with just a glance while using his aura. (7)

Dante then gets a new transformation which is greater than Devil Trigger in Sin Devil Trigger, which has all of the abilities of DT (including enhancing base Dante’s already crazily layered fear hax. It’s unknown what multiplier it is, but for the sake of simplicity and to not give Dante TOO MUCH, Dante is ONLY getting 2-3 Layers extra as an additive value. {Realistically it should be MUCH, MUCH higher.} This is to account for Devil Trigger, Majin Devil Trigger, and Sin Devil Trigger. Each being > than before in every field.) Which means that at the end Dante has AT LEAST 9-10 Layers.

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not how fear hax potency works. You being stronger doesn’t make you more effective. What’s currently accepted is Dante’s fear hax can bypass 4-D resistances from V.

 

[RedReaper]

That’s not how fear hax potency works. You being stronger doesn’t make you more effective. What’s currently accepted is Dante’s fear hax can bypass 4-D resistances from V.

None of those were about being stronger. Each of those characters had stated resistances that got bypassed. Where did you get strength out of it?

 

[Theglassman12]

You said Dante got more powerful, and that somehow meant his hax gets better, which isn’t how things work here unless you have statements that hax gets better in potency the stronger you are.

 

[RedReaper]

I said he got “far more powerful and moved from Low Tier Demon Heritage to High Tier Demon Heritage.” That’s not about strength. That’s about the natural progression of DMC Demon tiers the Spardakin (my nickname for his linage) go through as they pass in their lifespan. Dante was not born at High Tier Demon level. He earned that through struggles. And each tier, as stated in the beginning, enhances all previous. We know this due to the fact more powerful Demons can force other Demons to feel their fearhax, such as Dante and the low level Demons when he switched his name.

This is why different keys have different Demonic Heritage Tiers. DMC3 is rated at “Low Tier.” DMC2 has “High Tier.”

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah and the main difference is just having a better regen, which isn't something that 100% scales to sparda heritage as there's limits to their demonic power.

 

[RedReaper]

Yeah and the main difference is just having a better regen, which isn't something that 100% scales to sparda heritage as there's limits to their demonic power.

That doesn’t invalidate the point tho. Higher Tier demons can fearhax Lower Tier Demons. Dante has risen in Demon Tier, and clearly displays resistance to and fearhax comparable to high tier Demons. And even without that, that’s still 7-8 Layers.

Also, High Tier Demons have much more than just improved Regen. You’re referring to Mid-Tier. Which isn’t apart of the main discussion.

 

[Theglassman12]

When did higher tier demons fear hax lower tier demons?

 

[RedReaper]

Dante and the Demons he fearhaxed with his name.

Void Mundus scales to the Demon World as he merged with and became the living embodiment of the Void, the combined space time of the HW and DW. Said Alternate Mundus could fearhax Beryl who was unaffected by Chen’s passive, who was 70% Sparda. (Meaning he scales above them in fearhax potency.)

And you don’t even have to go that far. The page for Demon Physiology flat out states “everything to an enhanced degree.”

Also note the layers separate from the Demon Tier still proves higher Tier Demons have > Layers than lower Tier, as DMC Crew faced characters who are higher in Demonic Tier and Fearhax potency, or at the very least the things I’ve highlighted are notable enough to make it an honorable mention.

If you just disregard it, that’s STILL 7-8 layers. Can the Creator compare? Yes, or no?

When did higher tier demons fear hax lower tier demons?

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s just Dante, why would other demons scale to what only Dante has shown? You haven’t given any proof that the higher tier would scale to having better hax potency at all. As of now Dante just has being able to fear hax beings with 4-D resistances.

 

[RedReaper]

…
Why would other Demons, which Dante gets his abilities from, (his heritage,) who use the same form of energy, (demonic energy) who have the same ability origin, who also literally scale to Dante in actual feats by fighting Dante and his haxes…scale to Dante?

Uhhhh, how about all of the above plus the fact that there are literally Demons who scale to and ABOVE (at times) Dante’s fearhax potency in verse.

Secondly, as I stated, EVEN IF YOU TAKE THOSE OUT, Dante STILL has those 7-8 Layers.

Can the Creator stand up to them? Yes, or no?

 

[Theglassman12]

Using the same form of energy doesn't mean you scale to the same potency, especially when Sparda heritage is distinct from other demons as shown in the demon physiology page.

Again, lack of evidence, even the physiology page only has the demons just have resistance to the demon world passives which is baseline 4-D. So this isn't really helping your case when you're arguing something not even on the page.

No he has one layer on his page, which is fear haxing demons and V, both scale to the same resistance. So again this 7-8 layer BS isn't flying by.

 

[RedReaper]

Using the same form of energy doesn't mean you scale to the same potency, especially when Sparda heritage is distinct from other demons as shown in the demon physiology page.

Again, lack of evidence, even the physiology page only has the demons just have resistance to the demon world passives which is baseline 4-D. So this isn't really helping your case when you're arguing something not even on the page.

No he has one layer on his page, which is fear haxing demons and V, both scale to the same resistance. So again this 7-8 layer BS isn't flying by.

Actually, if we’re going by strictly the pages.

Low Tier Demon Fear Manip.

Dante exceeding their Fear Manip with his own specifically, as listed in Sparda Heritage.

V Fear manip feat.

(That was the Demon Physiology Page)

DMC2 Fear Manip. feat.

(On his Profile.)

Chronologically, it goes Low > Exceeding them via name switch > DMC2 novel > V

And as stated on both pages and profiles, DT, MDT and SDT all enhance his Fear Manip again.

And even if you only gave it one layer, (which is a massive lowball, considering, and I quote:

​

Mid Tier Demons​

“Mid Tiers make up most of the bosses in the franchise. As they are a lot more powerful than lesser Demons, they have everything before on a higher level, plus the following…”​

​

High Tier Demons​

​

“High Tier Demons, also known as the God tiers, are the most powerful type of demon in the series. They're made up of the Demon kings and those who rival them in power. They have everything before on a much higher level, plus the following…”​

…Which in itself is accepted Enhanced Fear Manip levels. Either way, even with 1 Layer his multiple DT forms covers the rest enough to where it DOESN’T MATTER, or you don’t lowball and his Fearhax Layers are incredibly high.)

Now, onto the MAIN discussion. How many layers does the Creator have, and CAN he beat Dante’s layers? Can you get any more specific than your last vague answer, which was just “several.” Can you elaborate the feats? What’s accepted? Where the layers for HIS feats are accepted or scaled to? Can his abilities even be scaled? You disbarred Dante feats because there was no suitable evidence that Demons can affect Demons, can something similar apply to the Creator due to a lack of feats?

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not how it works, everything on a higher level would mean they’re physically stronger, not the hax is stronger. Also why would V be better than Dante in 2 when he’s not in the same level as him? Also where does it say the DT enhances his fear hax? All I see in the physiology page is it enhances their resistance, that’s it.

As for creator, he upscales from resisting the lunar summons, who can hax Zeromus with their presence including mindhax, who’s unfazed by any of golbez’s spells, who was capable of mind haxing Kain, who’s capable of resisting the effects of the Void and the Darkness which are 4-D.

 

[RedReaper]

That’s not how it works, everything on a higher level would mean they’re physically stronger, not the hax is stronger. Also why would V be better than Dante in 2 when he’s not in the same level as him? Also where does it say the DT enhances his fear hax? All I see in the physiology page is it enhances their resistance, that’s it.

As for creator, he upscales from resisting the lunar summons, who can hax Zeromus with their presence including mindhax, who’s unfazed by any of golbez’s spells, who was capable of mind haxing Kain, who’s capable of resisting the effects of the Void and the Darkness which are 4-D.

The physiology page is talking hax. There is no mention of physical strength there. It is strictly "they have everything before," (the list of abilities) "on a higher level." No where is strength stated.

Dante's Devil Trigger Tab on his Profile

"All Devil Trigger forms give Dante increased attack, defense, speed, healing, and passive Enhanced Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation and Madness Manipulation (Type 3)."

V's feat was about his resistance. He was affected by Dante, but not by Urizen's, Malphas, the Demon World, (which Demons passively resist and causes Humans fear, unearthly illness, madness, etc.), the Elder Geryon/Cavaliere Angelo, all of which are higher than standard Demons), and this is ignoring that V also was able to, y'know, exist in their presence without immediately being Mind Fooked while being basically on a constant decline.

 

[Theglassman12]

Hax and their levels of strength. Every other page in the wiki has “everything before on a higher level”. That’s always in relation to strength, not hax, you need to prove hax is being improved in the series the stronger you are.

Hybrids don't have the same physiology since they are half-human, and thus, their Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Madness Manipulation (Type 3), Empowerments and Type 1 Immortality can only be used via their Devil Trigger, which is their full demon form.

Doesn’t say enhanced here, just that they only have this in DT.

So again, one layer of hax against 4-D fear hax. The other demons that V has encountered don’t have any feats of bypassing others resistances.

 

[RedReaper]

Hax and their levels of strength. Every other page in the wiki has “everything before on a higher level”. That’s always in relation to strength, not hax, you need to prove hax is being improved in the series the stronger you are.


Doesn’t say enhanced here, just that they only have this in DT.

So again, one layer of hax against 4-D fear hax. The other demons that V has encountered don’t have any feats of bypassing others resistances.

Likely because it’s not accounting for the fact Dante displays fearhax in base against the Demons upon his name switch from Tony.

It also doesn’t invalidate Dante’s profile proper, which literally states “Enhanced.”

So no, still above 1 layer.

 

[Theglassman12]

So not really enough to bypass the Creator's resistances at all, so Fear, Empathic, and Madness hax isn't really helping here.

 

[RedReaper]

@Tony_di_bugalu, anything I missed in his fearhax layers before we move on?