Piece!Beatrice vs Sans

[Verivici]

Daaku Erke said that apparently Beatrice's hax are strong enough to take down Whis despite the ridiculous speed difference.

Who takes it?

 

[Gnomishness]

Not knowing who this is or what verse this Beatrice is from, I'll have to just talk about Sans.

Sans has, in his own Haxes: Time stop powers, Teleportation powers, Gravity control powers, The ability (and in fact inevitability) to target the opponent's soul with all of his numerous attacks, The ability to send other people, as much as several minutes, back in time, and to choose whether or he is aware of it. (he has a surprisingly effective trick based on that) He has the ability to sense the fate of timelines on a rather macro scale (no specifics, but if the universe just isn't there suddenly, he'll realize) And finally, to top it off, he has one of the most absurdly effective face-reading talents imaginable.

 

[Promestein]

I gotta go with Piece Beatrice. Her hax are just... ridiculous. Reality warping and the ability to infinitely increase values, time manipulation, causality manipulation, and immortality.

Even so, Karmic Retribution wouldn't hurt Piece Beatrice all that badly compared to Chara. At most, she kills 18 people. Most of which deserved it, honestly.

 

[Verivici]

@Gnomishness

Beatrice is Beatrice.

She can make things repeat infinitely, raise the value of 1 to infinity, and her body contains complete emptiness and zero such that killing her is nearly impossible.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Beatrice isn't really pure evil like Chara is, nor has she committed mass genocide. Sans probably wouldn't be fighting her, though if he was forced into it, he wouldn't really have any good means of dealing damage. Yes, he's faster than piece Beatrice, but Beatrice's hax are reeeeeeaaaaallly good.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Sans does not appear to have any time manipulation abilities, but his ability to read his opponents puts Sherlock Holmes to shame, and he is crazy prepared, setting up elaborate plans based on how the human reacts to him so that he can effectively troll the time-traveling player from across time and space.

Brilliant, but lazy.

That has nothing to do with the battle. Sans can't kill someone with infinite health.

So there's that.

 

[Salavtore]

This feels like a stomp thread lol, its a little too obvious that beatrice is higher in the haxing this case.

 

[Verivici]

Stomp thread is Whis vs Bernkastel.

Sans has insanely OP hax and I wasn't really sure about all of Beato's at the time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Dear God Whis vs Bern...

Anyway, yeah, Sans has insanely good offensive hax, but they're not gonna be nearly as effective against Beato as they were against Chara. Pretty sure Beatrice didn't even kill two dozen people, whereas Chara killed like...hundreds in cold blood. If she'd kill more people, then yeah, Sans could off her the second the battle begins due to the insane speed advantage and how much damage KR would do, but since she didn't, it's highly unlikely he could before she did something such as set her health to "infinite".

 

[Squid_peanut]

sans is someone who has specialized himself to destroy the murderous and cocky. Anything else he really isn't good at and won't fight, that's why he's Unknown, because the guy would have an easier time fighting Beerus than yamcha

 

[DarkLK]

Beatrice doesn't have such shit like infinite health.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Beatrice doesn't have such shit like infinite health.

Can't she just make any value infinite, though? Because if that's the case, she can just make it so Sans has no way of actually killing her.

 

[DarkLK]

She does not need this. Her normal state is far better than just infinite health.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

I wouldn't say that necessarily KR is the only thing in Sans' arsenal that can hurt her (as all of his attacks completely ignore durability) though it would be a huge hit to his damage. I'm not particularly convinced that she would go all out starting on Sans. She IS massively overconfident, and overconfidence is something Sans punishes beyond belief. She can't create something from 0 after all, nor is she Omniscient. Sans just has to sucker punch her HARD out of the gate. If he can't kill her with the best GasterBlaster shot he has starting though, he's gonna have a bad time...

Unless, and this is PURELY hypothetical... Unless Sans can warp a bone in the metaphysical place of what she's raising to infinity with his reality manipulation (I.e. I don't need to be stronger than you, you undid yourself). Then she bones herself with her own powers, facing infinite attacks simultaneously.

Outside of those two scenarios, I don't see Sans winning this one. Sans can read his opponents especially well though. Looking at her face would allow him to easily tell exactly what she's planning on doing, so scenario 2 theoretically COULD happen (assuming she has to think about doing it to do it). It all just depends on how smart Sans actually is. We know he's a Tactical genius who can actually tell, based on how his opponent looks at him, how many times he's killed them, etc.

 

[Squid_peanut]

sans bones do seem to be able to pass through things, is there a big enough time winfow for him to get a bone in that reality warping thing

 

[Verivici]

I'd like it if DarkLK could make a judgement, but I doubt he has the time.

 

[Undylan]

Sans did tired to kill you when you try to take your turn by attacking your soul in the menu.

So maybe scenario 2 could work?

 

[DarkLK]

I don't know anything about Undertale, but something like regular durability ignoring is pointless against Beatrice.

The essence of Beatrice is the endless nothing. Not just intangibility. Her nature = zero in comparison with other spiritual and conceptual beings. She does not belong to three-dimensional world and its causality/timeline. Infinite power is useless against her. Universal manipulations like Big bangs are useless against her. Magic of miracles (that can realize any possibility and can change the script of the World, including changing the fate of creatures that came from behind the five-dimensional trans-realm wall) is useless against her.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't know anything about Undertale, but something like regular durability ignoring is pointless against Beatrice.
The essence of Beatrice is the endless nothing. Not just intangibility. Her nature = zero in comparison with other spiritual and conceptual beings. She does not belong to three-dimensional world and its causality/timeline. Infinite power is useless against her. Universal manipulations like Big bangs are useless against her. Magic of miracles (that can realize any possibility and can change the script of the World, including changing the fate of creatures that came from behind the five-dimensional trans-realm wall) is useless against her.

^

This. Sans isn't a higher dimensional being nor does he have hax that work on that level. You'd need one of the god tiers to actually beat her, and even then, I don't know if they could permanently put her down (and vice versa).

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Sans isn't a higher dimensional being nor does he have hax that work on that level.

That's not.. necessarily true. Sans has hax that are capable of breaking the constraints of spacetime in a 4 dimensional universe (at least his own). His abilities have been shown to exist outside of conventional reality, including the ability to percieve sideways in 4 dimensions, which is an ability exclusive to at least 5th dimensional beings, or beings with tangental 5th dimensional awareness. I'm positive that gives him enough to stand a chance, but I'm not sure it's enough to give him an edge. It's entirely dependant on whether or not he can leverage his innate understanding of hax, and/or exploit minor weaknesses in the system used to battle him. Bear in mind we're using the lowest level of Beatrice's power here, she's not yet beyond "At least low 2-C" in this incarnation, by measurable standards, at least according to her Wiki Page, here.

Also, to the matter of Bypassing Durability, he's been shown to completely ignore the true-post-hit invulnerability durability of Chara, a 2-B level character.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Northern Wind00

Less about her attack, more about her defense.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

@Northern Wind00
Less about her attack, more about her defense.

Just edited for that exact thing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just edited for that exact thing.

Yes, but even then, he was taking on a severely restricted Chara, who is also much, muuuuuch more evil than Beato. Also, like Chara, Beato has ways to simply come back should anything happen (to a certain extent, at least), so Sans isn't putting her down permanently.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Yes, but even then, he was taking on a severely restricted Chara, who is also much, muuuuuch more evil than Beato. Also, like Chara, Beato has ways to simply come back should anything happen (to a certain extent, at least), so Sans isn't putting her down permanently.

It really depends on if he can destroy that golden heart her powers come from. And honestly? That seems to be Sans' specialty. Dunking on hearts.

"Destroy her Golden Heart and she will be truly dead. Her magic depends on her faith in it."

I think this comes down to one of three scenarios.

1: Can he sucker punch her golden heart before she makes a move?

2: Can he outmaneuver her into accidentally creating infinite attacks?

3: If he can do neither of those things, he loses.

 

[Promestein]

No, he can't, because Beatrice's hax are way above anything he is capable of, therefore rendering his speed advantage useless. And all she needs to do, comparatively, is twitch in his direction to kill him, and she has no reason to screw around with a boring inexpressive skeleton.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

No, he can't, because Beatrice's hax are way above anything he is capable of, therefore rendering his speed advantage useless. And all she needs to do, comparatively, is twitch in his direction to kill him, and she has no reason to screw around with a boring inexpressive skeleton.

"Overconfident and being arrogant for several times when fighting against Battler."

"Massively hypersonic+ (on par with Virgilia)"

Sans has a MASSIVE speed advantage, and she's overconfident.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah? He can't hurt her in that window of time, doesn't know who she is or what her weaknesses are, and therefore can't hurt her. Her golden heart is her HEART. He can't get to it.

Yes, Beatrice is overconfident, but she has no reasons to drag it out any longer than necessary. If she gets bored, she'll kill Sans, and she'll get bored.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Her golden heart is her HEART. He can't get to it.

Oh, buddy. That's EXACTLY what he targets. the CORE of your BEING. That's literally exactly what he's used to targetting with every single attack he uses.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Didn't Beatrice's heart explode and she was fine?

Or was that EVA-Beatrice?...

...Dammit I need to go through Umineko, again.

 

[Promestein]

You don't seem to understand the part where Sans can't deal any meaningful damage to Beatrice.

 

[Promestein]

Didn't Beatrice's heart explode and she was fine?

Or was that EVA-Beatrice?...

...Dammit I need to go through Umineko, again.

Yeah, that was Beatrice. The Chiesters turned her heart into swiss cheese and she was fine.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, that was Beatrice. The Chiesters turned her heart into swiss cheese and she was fine.

Thanks, Prom.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

...Dammit I need to go through Umineko, again.

At least according to the wiki as it stands, from my understanding, at the point this fight occurs, dunking on that heart would truly destroy her. And since it doesn't have much LV.... That's a very dangerous point for her. given that he can hurt Chara posessing Frisk, who can tank, and I quote

"Likely Multiverse level+ (Took many hits from Asriel, who was unable to kill them even when their soul was destroyed), the ability to SAVE and LOAD makes them nearly impossible to kill by conventional means"

And

"Multiverse level (Completely unaffected by their own destruction of the game, Exists as an abstract concept that will be brought back as long as someone with enough Determination exists), likely higher (Ability to SAVE and LOAD makes them extremely difficult to destroy even in physical form)"

respectively, without factoring KR, I think it's a fair bet he could hurt that heart. The question is, is Relativistic+ vs Massively hypersonic+ (on par with Virgilia) a big enough difference that he could sucker-punch the heart hard enough to destroy it...?


Regardless of the answer, we can all agree that any other incarnation of Beatrice hoses Sans without a fight.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara possessing Frisk is not quite the same as Chara or Frisk on their own. Chara on their own is an abstract concept who exists due to a feeling that exists in the hearts and souls of many other sentient beings, including the player. Sans would not be able to hurt them once they had reached the "absolute". Chara being in Frisk's body was a strange case, as yes they had all the power and durability Chara had on their own (or at least most of it), but lacked Chara's abstract form and was therefore still vulnerable to KR. Yes, Sans could hurt Beatrice, but not do meaningful damage to her essence, which would be what it would take to win.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Yes, Sans could hurt Beatrice, but not do meaningful damage to her essence, which would be what it would take to win.

Mmm... you seem to be operating under the misconception that ALL of the damage sans does to Frisk/Chara is KR. It's not. There's a base, non-KR damage that is dealt per frame as well, simply from his magic, which is enough to destroy a 1 LV human soul in 2/3 of a second. The "1ATK" is umitigatable, by any conventional means that we've seen. The KR is on top of that. KR is not sans' only means of damaging multiverse-level beings. His base damage still gets through.

 

[Promestein]

Why are you applying Undertale concepts like LV to Beatrice? KR can be applied because something like killing someone can be applied to everyone, but LV is an Undertale-specific concept.

We can't assume that the 1ATK is completely unable to be ignored. Like, seriously, what?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, I'm operating on the idea that KR is Sans most lethal ability, which it likely is. It's also the most meaningful when damaging someone "essence", meaning it's unlikely to work very well on Beatrice, who unlike Chara, is not a mass murderer.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

We can't assume that the 1ATK is completely unable to be ignored. Like, seriously, what?

We can point out that it completely ignores the resistances, including perfect invulnerability, of 2-B characters. That's my point. Also, LV determines KR's power. However, it also determines your ability to resist Sans' attacks through HP of the core of your being. Assuming she's beyond those concepts puts her well above her stated 2-C ranking.

"Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
No, I'm operating on the idea that KR is Sans most lethal ability, which it likely is. It's also the most meaningful when damaging someone "essence", meaning it's unlikely to work very well on Beatrice, who unlike Chara, is not a mass murderer."

It is, but it's only 7/8ths of his standard damage against Chara. I'm prepared to run the calculations with a 7/8ths mitigation of all of sans' damage. That seems fair to me, in terms of the fight.

So can sans, at 1/8th damage (but the 1/8th he has bypasses her durability) dunk on the heart of someone with less resistance to the raw damage than the target that has lower assumed raw durability to said attacks than Chara...?

And.. can he do it BEFORE Relativistic+ meets Massively Supersonic+?

That is the core question.

 

[Promestein]

2-C is based off of her destructive capacity. And, she's at least 2-C.

I'm 100% sure that's because the invincibility frames are missing to let Sans' attacks rack up KR extremely quickly, not because Sans has some magical ability to ignore defenses with his most basic of attacks (assuming KR is a separate concept, here). And, again, Chara in Frisk's body did not have their highest defense, and was a tangible being, so comparing them to Beatrice, a being of infinite nothing, is really inaccurate.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

2-C is based off of her destructive capacity. And, she's at least 2-C.
I'm 100% sure that's because the invincibility frames are missing to let Sans' attacks rack up KR extremely quickly...

The damage is calculated separately in the engine, so according to the game code he's doing both regular damage as well as KR.