Piece!Beatrice vs Sans

[Promestein]

I'm not saying he's not doing both regular damage as well as KR, I'm saying the reason that the regular damage is there every frame is because you don't have any invincibility frames, for the purpose of racking up KR. You know, the 7/8 of his damage.

Again, the regular damage isn't going to hurt an intangible being of eternal nothing. KR is the only thing that's going to be significant, and that's not killing her either. Sans can hurt her, but he can't kill her. You keep on arguing that he can kill her without bringing up any meaningful new points why.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Again, the regular damage isn't going to hurt an intangible being of eternal nothing. KR is the only thing that's going to be significant, and that's not killing her either. Sans can hurt her, but he can't kill her. You keep on arguing that he can kill her without bringing up any meaningful new points why.

The simple point is, his attack IS doing damage to Frisk/Chara's core essence. And assuming he can damage that with his normal damage, through their durability, he can do the same to her, through hers, given their relative tiers. Once again, is Relativistic+ enough of a speed advantage to dunk on the heart before Massively Hypersonic+ can respond, is the question.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sans can hurt her, but he can't kill her.

This, really. It's like how KR could likely hurt true Chara, they're an abstract entity who is unaffected by existence completely collapsing, so the damage wouldn't be meaningful to their core essence.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

This, really. It's like how KR could likely hurt true Chara, they're an abstract entity who is unaffected by existence completely collapsing, so the damage wouldn't be meaningful to their core essence.

If you say so, but the base damage WAS enough to hurt Chara/Frisk fused's core essence by 1 per frame. I think that since Sans targets core essence with all of his magic, doing 30 dps through Multiverse level resistance, and since he has such a speed advantage, he has a shot.

That's my take, anyway. If he can destroy the heart, which is kinda EXACTLY what he's used to doing, then he can destroy all her powers and truly kill her, at least in this form. The question is, as I keep bringing up, "is Relativistic+ better enough than Massively Hypersonic+ to destroy the core essence with base damage alone?" At least in my eyes. Seeing as how his base damage DOES affect core essence, by the nature of what a SOUL is in Undertale.\

I believe you've said it yourself, Azzy, the soul in Undertale is the culmination of your being. It IS your core essence. If that is the case, then Sans' base damage ALSO hurts the SOUL of a Multiverse level durability character.

 

[DarkLK]

Beato's heart is her essence aka infinite nothing (nothing aka zero is the keyword here, Infinity is not a problem at all) that Bern's magic of miracles can not affect directly.

Sans has more hax or power than magic of miracles?

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Beato's heart is her essence aka infinite nothing (nothing aka zero is the keyword here, Infinity is not a problem at all) that Bern's magic of miracles can not affect directly.
Sans has more hax or power than magic of miracles?

Theoretically yes? He's been shown to be INCREDIBLY able to ignore durability, both with his base damage and KR, at least from what I can tell.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sans has more hax or power than magic of miracles?

Nah. If he did, he could have stopped Chara full on instead of just holding them off.

 

[DarkLK]

Theoretically yes? He's been shown to be INCREDIBLY able to ignore durability, both with his base damage and KR, at least from what I can tell.

Durability is not important. The abstract nature is the problem. Essence of spiritual zero that beyond possibilities and scripts.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Nah. If he did, he could have stopped Chara full on instead of just holding them off.

Once again, if'n ya say so. His base damage is capable of attacking into multiverse level resistance and dealing damage through it. The difference in this case is that it has been stated, on Beatrice's page, that at the stage of her character development we're taking this from, the destruction of her heart in the same way sans destroys Chara's (that Chara can recover from) would 'truly kill her'. That's word for word. I dunno what the explanation for the discrepancy in terms is, but unless someone's going to take that weakness off her page, then I'm going to maintain my position.

"Durability is not important. The abstract nature is the problem. Essence of spiritual zero that beyond possibilities and scripts."

but she has a non-abstract essence that can be destroyed, at the stage of her development used in this fight, according to her page. That isn't something that can just be ignored.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Once again, if'n ya say so. His base damage is capable of attacking into multiverse level resistance and dealing damage through it. The difference in this case is that it has been stated, on Beatrice's page, that at the stage of her character development we're taking this from, the destruction of her heart in the same way sans destroys Chara's (that Chara can recover from) would 'truly kill her'. That's word for word. I dunno what the explanation for the discrepancy in terms is, but unless someone's going to take that weakness off her page, then I'm going to maintain my position.

Chara's true form is that of an abstract concept that doesn't truly exist in the way we think of it.

This is similar to Beato's true infinite nothingness nature.

Sans cannot inflict meaningful enough damage to either.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Chara's true form is that of an abstract concept that doesn't truly exist in the way we think of it.

This is similar to Beato's true infinite nothingness nature.

Sans cannot inflict meaningful enough damage to either.

I just pointed out that she has a targettable, destroyable weakness in the form we're talking about. It's written on her profile, either remove it or acknowledge it, please.

"Destroy her Golden Heart and she will be truly dead."

 

[DarkLK]

All other demons, spirits, illusions and conceptual beings are not truly exist in the way we think of it. But they can easily affect each other. And of course it is not a problem for the magic of miracles. But Beatrice is different from the others, her heart embodies nothing in terms of other supernatural beings and their realm. That is why there are so many problems with destroying her heart.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Destroy her Golden Heart and she will be truly dead."

Yes, the problem is that Sans does not operate on a high enough level to do this and does not have high enough resistance to survive.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Yes, the problem is that Sans does not operate on a high enough level to do this and does not have high enough resistance to survive.

I think I've established that his ability to overcome resistance extends to a higher tier than her own. I have also established that it's not just KR that damages that core essence on that tier. Assuming he has a target and the means to overcome its resistance, which I've established rather thoroughly, and can destroy it before she can make a move, which is the question of the speed calc, then theoretically he can win. He operates on a high enough level to attack the core essence of a being that is functionally conceptual. Just because THAT being can regenerate from anything doesn't mean Beatrice can. She has a weak point, that when it is destroyed cannot be recovered. In your own words, sans attacks the core essence, which is what her weak point is, and in the calculations of his own series, Sans has proven capable of overcoming multiverse level resistances with his base damage, even before KR. This leaves us in the predicament, once again, of determining whether his base damage would be enough, through a lower resistance than Chara had, to destroy that weak point inside her, before she could react. Because that weak point is not conceptual in nature, he can damage it, and since it lacks the resistance of chara, it is assumed he can overcome its resistances because he's capable of doing so against Chara in Frisk's body, which has a higher average resistance than Beatrice in general. If he can damage it, and he has a MASSIVE speed advantage, once again, the question is, can he sucker punch it in the time-difference between Relativistic+ and Massively-Hypersonic+ hard enough to destroy it or not? I don't know the exact answer, but I'll look for a speed calc on how fast Frisk is compared to the light based attack of Knight Knight, then calculate the actual speed of light against the light-speed shown per frame by Knight Knight's sunlight attack to determine how fast a 'frame' actually happens in real time in an Undertale fight. Then, by comparing the speed difference between the two, we can calculate how many frames occur between sans' ability to open with a volley and her ability to react. Thus we can get a total of how much damage sans can perform to the heart before she can react, and determine if she would die before getting an attack off or not.

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[DarkLK]

This is fundamentally wrong. The heart is not her weak point. This is her most strong point. Her very nature and the most abstract thing in her concept. You can easily damage her body, but it does not matter. Heart will survive, and without destruction of the heart, you can not destroy her.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

This is fundamentally wrong. The heart is not her weak point. This is her most strong point. Her very nature and the most abstract thing in her concept. You can easily damage her body, but it does not matter. Heart will survive, and without destruction of the heart, you can not destroy her.

Erm, would you care to explain how her heart can tank multiversial hits, if, as stated before, "turned into swiss cheese" by beings that she, at 2-C, summoned?

"The Chiesters are bunny-girl servants summoned by Beatrice. It is said that there is no escape from the Chiesters' attacks, and they can even locate and bring back a corpse. They have red eyes, bunny ears, and elaborate military-styled outfits. It is hinted that they are connected to Maria's three (originally four) rabbit toys."

If sans can overcome multiverse level resistance, he can certainly overcome 2-C resistance, which is the very point I've been trying to make the entire time. He CAN destroy the heart, because it is a target that is exactly what he attacks directly with literally every one of his attacks.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Are you implying complex multiversal is ''not'' ludicrously above regular multiversal?

 

[Promestein]

Tier 1's are more than infinitely beyond anything Sans has even touched.

He's not doing anything.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Are you implying complex multiversal is not ludicrously above regular multiversal?

Are you implying 2-C is complex multiversal?

My bad. I've been saying 1-C when actually, her profile states: "At least Low 2-C"

2-C IS within the scope of multiversial. My bad.

I'm new here. Sorry about that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like I said, Beatrice's attack potency is at least Low 2-C, her durability and hax resistance are higher.

It's the same deal with Chara. Even though they're "just" 2-B, their very nature makes them stupidly difficult to actually destroy or even interact with if they're not just hijacking someone else's body. Tier is defined by attack potency. Someone can still have higher or lower defense than their tier.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

It's the same deal with Chara. Even though they're "just" 2-B, their very nature makes them stupidly difficult to actually destroy or even interact with if they're not just hijacking someone else's body. Tier is defined by attack potency. Someone can still have higher or lower defense than their tier.

The fundamental difference between the two of them is that one is stated to have a weakness that cannot be regenerated through.

If Sans CAN destroy the heart, which multiverse level attacks SHOULD be able to do, since 2-C (summoned) attacks can turn it to swiss cheese, why shouldn't she stay dead, as her profile says she would?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but that's implying Sans can permanently destroy her heart.

Did you miss the part where that didn't actually kill her? Or where she resisted reality warping from much higher beings?

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Did you miss the part where that didn't actually kill her? Or where she resisted reality warping from much higher beings?

bear in mind this is a speed calculation at this point. also, bear in mind that 2-C is an order of magnitude LOWER than 2-B, which is capable of theoretically infinite more potency than 2-C. Even if his attacks are barely 2-B and her summons were 'low 2-C' or even 'high 2-C', his attacks still hit beyond her resistance, and can do so significantly before she can react. This fight comes down to the difference in speed, ultimately. Equalized, Sans loses, for sure, but he's got the advantage of Relativistic+ vs Massively-HyperSonic+ in initiative. It depends on how much damage he can pump through her resistances at that point. Just because it didn't kill her when it was partially destroyed doesn't mean it wouldn't kill her when it's completely destroyed, as sans' attacks tend to leave things. Ignoring the order of magniude difference between the two, for sheer speed, damage and precision of the attacks in question they should be able to cover the entire core essence, especially since they did so to a being that is, as stated, on par.

Whereas Chara can ACTUALLY regenerate beyond the point of his core essence being completely destroyed, it is stated, firmly, without doubt, that if the heart is destroyed her powers are gone. She will not recover and she will die. That is the fundamantal difference between the two that leads this fight to be winnable in any way.

 

[DarkLK]

She just was damaged only when she refused power and title in favor of Eva. But then she opened her potential and Chiester's and Eva's attacks could not do anything to her heart anymore, regardless of their number, however, she was already dying.

And once again, resistance is not a major problem. Nature of nothing that beyond the scripts and possibilities is. Set of timelines is simply a set of alternative possibilities. Their number will not change anything, just like a simple increase of power can not overcome intangibility.

In addition, if we talk about theories, it is likely that she is infinite in five or six dimensions (3-D human world + 4-D magic world + time + maybe different realm walls and totality).

 

[Northern_Wind00]

In addition, if we talk about theories, it is likely that she is infinite in five or six dimensions (3-D human world + 4-D magic world + time + maybe different realm walls and totality).

...We're not talking about that far into the series, supposedly. The calculations come off of nothing but Piece Beatrice rather than any other point in the series.

AND, according to this wiki, Piece beatrice is NOT beyond the concepts of Time and Space yet. Ergo, she can be damaged within them.

 

[DarkLK]

Man, you're too often refer to the wiki. Statistics is just a result of discussions. Believe me, I know how our tier system works))) And if I just change Beato's statistics to "Unknown, likely at least high 2-A" it will not affect our discussion.

And I remember very well that we are talking about Piece Beato. Please note I did not even say that Beato wins. I basically say that it she not likely to loses.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Believe me, I know how our tier system works)))

Understatement of the century.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

And if I just change Beato's statistics to "Unknown, likely at least high 2-A" it will not affect our discussion.

...I refer to the wiki because it's supposed to be an accurate measure of her known feats. It's the only calculable statistic we have, and outside of that, this battle is inherantly inclonclusive, as are almost all non-stomps. There's a lot of unknowns here, for instance, if destroying her heart entirely would actually kill her, though it appears to be stated as fact, so I'm inclined to trust it. Whether or not Swiss-cheesing it at 2-C level offense means 2-B is enough to destroy it all, and again, the speed calculation I bring up. If we throw out the only statistics we have in favor of simple platitudes, such as 'ethereal things cannot be hit', when there's no reason to believe that his magic wouldn't be able to hurt them, given the previous swiss-cheesing reference, then wer're left with an incoherant mess that ends inconclusively.

 

[DarkLK]

For example some tier 9 character can have intangibility and durability ignoring, but only small building level bare power. This character wasn't lose to some tier 6 with only island level bare power. Here the situation is similar. Moreover, there is not written "low 2-C". "At least low 2-C" is written. This suggests that it may be much higher, but "low 2-C" is an absolute minimum. Basically it means that I do not want to overstate this profile. Or I just do not want to waste my time to analysis and editing.

Once again, swiss cheese thing was only due to the fact that she had lost her power, name, title, concept, magic. But even then, powerless, weakened and dying Beatrice was able to understand the essence of her magic. After that, no one, including the endless witch Eva and her bunnies, could not scratch her heart regardless of their number.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

For example some tier 9 character can have intangibility and durability ignoring, but only small building level bare power. This character wasn't lose to some tier 6 with only island level bare power. Here the situation is similar. Moreover, there is not written "low 2-C". "At least low 2-C" is written. This suggests that it may be much higher, but "low 2-C" is an absolute minimum. Basically it means that I do not want to overstate this profile. Or I just do not want to waste my time to analysis and editing.
Once again, swiss cheese thing was only due to the fact that she had lost her power, name, title, concept, magic. But even then, powerless, weakened and dying Beatrice was able to understand the essence of her magic. After that, no one, including the endless witch Eva and her bunnies, could not scratch her heart regardless of their number.

Alright, thank you for clarifying. That makes the counterargument make a LOT more sense to me. The question then becomes, "exactly how much can sans simply ignore", to which I'd reply, "Probably not enough." assuming we're talking about Piece still. I'm not sure of the full details, but so far as I know, sans' attacks do affect the incoporeal, however if we're going with her 'at the beginning of the series' would she still have had that experience? There's a lot of undefined variables here, and I'm not sure they CAN be defined by our current understandings of the characters.

 

[DarkLK]

Eva said she can see the human world people from the top, as it is insignificant in comparison with her endless god-like power. And the magical/spiritual world is a higher dimension than human/physical world. So it is quite likely that Eva's endless magic is infinitely superior to the physical world.

But there are also other physical and spiritual worlds beyond the walls (this walls have even more dimensions). Magic of miracles once was to influence the world script to change the fate of creature that came beyond the world of the wall. And Beatrice's essence (heart embodies it) is the infinite nothing that magic of miracles can not affect. It is not simply incorporeal, it is zero in compared to the other incorporeal, spiritual and conceptual beings.

And of course I never talked about something other than pieces.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Hmm. Wouldn't that make this a stomp? That doesn't seem like a fair fight at all, given that literally nothing in any tier can supposedly damage her? if everything you're saying is true and functions exactly as is, that is.

 

[DarkLK]

For example, there are various paradoxical, illogical, and irrational abilities, as well as such concept.

In addition, Beatrice is still part of Kakera or Shinra Bansho that is something around 8-dimensional world (with pretty complex metaphysical structure). Everything is relative And from the higher layer all the lower creatures, including Beatrice are just like characters in the book.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

With all due respect, this explanation sounds entirely theoretical and not actually based off her feats at the time. That seems to contradict, at least from my understanding, the core logic of these kind of debates. One cannot simply assume X is infinity because its maximum has not been shown or else Saitama would be winning every fight in existance because his feats do not adequately represent his abilities. He could theoretically be considered infinite in all non-intelligence regards. I could say the same about sans, theoretically his ability to overcome the ability to resist or prevent the damage of his abilities has no limits, seeing as he can completely negate the 'true invulnerability' of a multiverse level being, at the very least. The argument thereof has exactly as much validity as anything you have said, with sans' only weakness being his own exhaustion, since he has been shown, theoretically, to be immune to all forms of offense we've seen before he tires out. Furthermore he's capable of carrying things sideways through time with him, having pictures from alternate timelines that were completely destroyed and never existed, as well as posessing Gasterblasters, devices that are a reference to WD Gaster who exists outside of all concepts of space and time, and therefore so do they, considering the nature of their phasing in and out of reality as need be.

Would that, theoretically, be something acceptable, by the standards of this debate?

 

[DarkLK]

What are you talking about? The Endless magic is the infinite power that has been repeatedly confirmed by words of author and narrator. But the Infinity is relative concept. In this case, there is only a question of how many dimensions Beatrice's infinity contains. Most likely this is at least around 5 dimensions.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

What are you talking about? The Endless magic is the infinite power that has been repeatedly confirmed by words of author and narrator. But the Infinity is relative concept. In this case, there is only a question of how many dimensions Beatrice's infinity contains. Most likely this is at least around 5 dimensions.

Hmm... I see what you mean. Alright, My apologies again, this is a little beyond my base understanding of the series in question, so it seems rather awkward to me. As long as 5 dimensions are the limit, Sans does possess tangental 5 dimensional awareness, and can therefore fight on that level, albeit not to an infinite regard, due to his ability to percieve time as a plane, rather than a line, wherein he can see everything across it, even salvaging things from completely destroyed timelines, and knowing exactly what can happen at any given time. The only ability he was not able to dodge through this foreknowledge was a break in the normal flow of time that caught him off guard while he was waking up, likely due to Chara's ability to possess the body making the upcoming attack unreadable.

Ultimately, There's still a few unaccounted for variables. We don't know how his ability to bypass seemingly true invulnerability periods of a being that can destroy multiverses (shortly before that being would do exactly that) would fare against her ability to simply not be hurt in her heart. We do know that he has a massive speed, and therefore theoretically initiative advantage. We don't know if this can translate to a victory, even if the first question's answer is yes.

 

[DarkLK]

Basically I said everything I wanted to say in this thread. I do not know anything about Undertale, so you should continue the discussion with Azzy. I think he also understood my point.

Have a good evening (or any other time of day, because I do not know from which country you are).

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Basically I said everything I wanted to say in this thread. I do not know anything about Undertale, so you should continue the discussion with Azzy. I think he also understood my point.
Have a good evening (or any other time of day, because I do not know from which country you are).

The USA as well, and thank you for broadening my understanding of the rules of these debates and the way they are handled, as well as the series in question. You've been a great help in understanding exactly how things work around here. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to stop in and say your peace.

 

[Verivici]

So what's the decision?

 

[Northern_Wind00]

So what's the decision?

I'd say that if Sans can't hurt her, this is a stomp thread, since there's no way he could ever win in a million years.

If Sans can hurt her, then by extension he can destroy her essence and... I ran a speed calculation just for this.

If Undertale battles took place in normal time. Light would travel 9993.08 kilometers per frame.

The speed of light in an actual Undertale fight Assuming Frisk's soul is 5ft in diameter (which is highballing it, the lower this number is the stronger timescale gets). Light travels .0001016 kilometers per frame.

Meaning the timescale of an Undertale fight is... 983578866.61x

29,507,365,998.3 'frames' per actual second.

Beatrice moves .00367% the speed of sans, subtracting 108292033.213761 damage from the total.

This leaves a total of 29,399,073,965.08624 damage with no KR factored, per second.

29,399,073,965.08624 damage is enough to obliterate 296,960,343 Chara/Frisk Fusions AFTER they'd already killed Sans and gotten the power boost from that that allowed Chara to oneshot an entire multiverse. That is to say, after they became capable of existing outside of a multiverse.

Sans Speedblitz's Beatrice from his damage per second (base with minor KR), and Reaction speed/Combat Speed being massively superior. Or he can't hurt her and this is a stomp thread. take your pick.

I think that Sans COULD hurt her, because of his ridiculous ability to ignore defenses on multiverse+ level beings up to and including 'invulnerability frames', but that's just my take on the matter. My vote is for Sans, because I think he could do it before she could react.