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Phoenix Wright vs Makoto Naegi, in Class Trial

NeoSuperior said:
It wasn't stated to be a bloodlusted battle, so Phoenix and Makoto are not bloodlusted but instead in-character, period.
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That's the point, I said that is the only reasonable way, but it wasn't stated so it shouldn't count.
 
Ah, ok. I get what you mean now. Still, if it actually was changed to "bloodlusted", it would turn a large part of the setting redundant.
 
Should bring up. Your considering Phoenix character. But nobody has brought up Makotos character. Like him pinning it on someone else. Ehh. That's gonna be a no. He wouldn't do that in character. And considering he is guilty. He is gonna be at a low too. He actually did it and someone else is gonna suffer for it if he even gets off. This situation is too hard to accurately say what their characters would make them do cause both aren't in a situation they have entirely 100 percent been in before. Phoenix being a prosecutor and Makoto being guilty but trying to show himself not being guilty and possibly pin it on someone else. And if you want to be real. Phoenix At Least has the advantage that he wants tor truth and he doesn't have an issue pointing the finger should they be guilty. Making him far more ready and prepared to handle a situation of being a prosecutor. He again, sort of already does that. He wants the true Culprit to face justice. And will gladly point the finger to them. Plus his maga which can basically tell him if Makoto is hiding something. Plus his raw experience.

On top of all that. They both would more than likely find the true master mind of it all. Both are far to intelligent to not do so when put together.
 
That's a good point actually... Really, the setting was a bad choice and requires all participants to act out of character in a way that hasn't been shown before and makes it impossible to evaluate. OP messed up.

Though, yea if it happens, the "flow" would lead both of them to "break the game" instead of going along. Both of which have feats for that.
 
It would make a better debate if this was a Class Trial and both of them were wrong - so neither are defending factually correct points.

And if the student participants were impartial and not biased, since that's kinda outside help.
 
NeoSuperior said:
That's a good point actually... Really, the setting was a bad choice and requires all participants to act out of character in a way that hasn't been shown before and makes it impossible to evaluate. OP messed up.
Though, yea if it happens, the "flow" would lead both of them to "break the game" instead of going along. Both of which have feats for that.
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So, if they both work together to break the game, that would be incon, right? If so, I'm switching my vote to incon.
 
This Specific OP probably shouldn't be done then. This case is far too out of character for both. The large issue with these two is their wanting for the truth and extremely high intelligence, skills, super natural skills, and experience. They always would end up with pulling the truth out. It would always end on a Draw cause both want and would work for the truth. And putting one in a situation of defending the wrong would just put it on the others favor, Makoto vs Phoenix is truly and without setting it up, probably always inconclusive. And if we want to say who solves it first. Well. Phoenix has the raw experience and skills over Makoto. That's just a matter of who's better and smarter. And Phoenix simply has far more time to be superior in that regard.

Makoto should go against a prosecutor like Franziska. That way the person defending would defend the guilty regardless. It's almost like Phoenix. But it can come to a conclusion.
 
This is why I suggest that Makoto and Phoenix both be fighting for opposite, incorrect sides of the same case.

They both would fight for the truth, so... make them both wrong? That way, the person with the winning case doesn't automatically win. Say, there was a murder, and they both think a different person did it, but it was actually someone else who they don't have the evidence to reveal.
 
Well. The best thing I see is putting them in a situation where it's who solves the case first. Not necessarily who started on the right side of it. So while Makoto May start thinking someone is guilty, but by the end solves it before Phoenix does and finds who really did it. Then he wins. Likewise the other way. It's the fairest situation which can take in account their character and skills without putting on at a disadvantage
 
Buttersamuri said:
Should bring up. Your considering Phoenix character. But nobody has brought up Makotos character. Like him pinning it on someone else. Ehh. That's gonna be a no. He wouldn't do that in character.
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Actually, that isn't out of character, as that is what Makoto would let happen to Kirigiri during the 5th trial. No other main character in Danganronpa has the option to sell out another person other than Makoto.

So, it's not a game mechanic for the series, just an option only Makoto could make.
 
In an alternate bad ending that he doesn't actually choose in canon. And something he regrets choosing later on as he says that isn't right on that very "ending". And he isn't the guilty one in that case. This case will make him the guilty one. In that case, she does look suspicious after all. She had a key that could have pinned the crime on her. So even him selling her out had some logic behind it because there was a lot of potential she did it. Where in this case. He is certain that he is the one who did it as he did the crime. Making the situation different.

So no. Not usable. He isn't meant to do that and doesn't actually do that. Not in character.
 
If it wasn't in character, it would never have been made an option solely for Makoto.

On top of that, we've never seen Makoto actually guilty of anything. Saying Makoto won't put the blame on someone else in a situation that for once he is guilty of is also saying Makoto would tell Phoenix everything right away and that's is a NLF,
 
ElixirBlue said:
If it wasn't in character, it would never have been made an option solely for Makoto.

On top of that, we've never seen Makoto actually guilty of anything. Saying Makoto won't put the blame on someone else in a situation that for once he is guilty of is also saying Makoto would tell Phoenix everything right away and that's is a NLF,
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That's exactly the reason why the premise we are currently using is bad though. Making a battle that gets decided entirely by VS Battle rules rather than feats/traits of the characters themselves goes against the spirit of this very site, imo.
 
ElixirBlue said:
If it wasn't in character, it would never have been made an option solely for Makoto.

On top of that, we've never seen Makoto actually guilty of anything. Saying Makoto won't put the blame on someone else in a situation that for once he is guilty of is also saying Makoto would tell Phoenix everything right away and that's is a NLF,
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It's just an alternate bad ending which doesn't even help support this case since this situation and that one were extremely different

And that's the problem. We don't know how he would react. Logically we can make guesstimates based on what we know of his character which doesn't support that kind of action. But it's not even a good fight to be in. Why would you throw a Defense lawyer into a difference practice and throw makoto into a situation he hasn't been in or ever shown how he would property react and expect to get an accurate outcome. It just is too hard to say. This is taking them out of their characters. It isn't Phoenix vs Makoto at that point. Which takes away the fun and idea
 
Ok, then this thread doesn't work.

However, if Bloodlusted, how would Phoenix win in this case? Step by step, with the current case's details.
 
Again. We still are in the issue this isn't a fair trail. Putting them in situations they aren't familiar in. Phoenix job isn't to prosecute. You want a prosecutor fight that's basically as fair. Do Miles, Franziska, Manfred, or the other prosecutors.
 
Does a "bloodlusted" battle of minds even work? It's like their character is ignored and they suddenly become master manipulators who abandon all morals they have, can easily lie about everything without scruples and basically only compete in who is better at manipulating the audience rather than finding the truth. So I am not sure if that's really any better, as we'd just compare who is better at instigating a crowd while both lose their characteristic weaknesses.
 
Funny how this is now brought after all this discussion with Makoto have a lot of advantages but whatever

I guess this match up is invalid.
 
It was brought up because facts about Phoenix character kept being brought up and fought and nobody considered Makotos character. So I brought that fact up. It can't acted like it's unfair that this point is brought up cause it's valid. This set up just isn't fair.

And actually. He didn't have a lot of advantages that made sense it the trail fair. Most advantages was plain unfair when you think about it. outside help in the form of letting makoto having previous relationships with people judging the trail and Phoenix having nobody. Also putting Phoenix in a prosecutor standpoint. And placing it in Makotos class trail in his favor too. Aka. Putting a lot of favor on Makoto. Placing Phoenix in a new system with a job that isn't what he does, against a group of people who will have a bias towards Makoto.
 
That isn't a good argument, as Phoenix Wright has always been in situations where there is a bias against him.
 
Ok. But no. Your still wrong. Just because he has been in a situation bias against him, doesn't mean it's right or fair to put him in a situation bias against him. That's just setting him up for a loss which isn't fair.
 
Isn't this OP likely suppose to close. Since the setting is realistically unfair to both ends and not able to come to an accurate conclusion
 
I mean if OP came in and corrected the setting after some feedback, this thread might still be salvaged, though we already almost reached 200 posts in this thread, so yea, not sure if making a new one altogether would be better, or just leave this sort of match be altogether, since there are a lot of things to consider to make it "fair" and it's not something that can be decided on the fly.
 
Problem is. Putting two defenders of justice against each other. They never will defend a bad person. So putting either in that situation isn't fair to them. The most fair situation I see is placing them in a case and seeing who solves it first. That way all their characters and such aren't unfairly put up against something they wouldn't do.
 
Then how would we get them to kill each other.

Naegi at least would need to be bloodlusted, as his only kill in the series was Junko herself, but that's only because Naegi's Empathic Manipulation was working on Junko and she knew it was happening and hated it. She killed herself so she could prevent the Empathic Manipulation from turning her into a good person.
 
They wouldn't want to kill each other. That isn't the point, this isnt a combat fight. It's just a battle of intelligence. Who said a life had to be on the line for them to have an intelligence duel. It could simply be a friendly round of solving a mystery.
 
I mean, the point of vs matches is to get the other person killed and if that's not possible, incap. Look at Batman.
 
Not really. That's kinda wrong. A vs fight doesn't have to end in death or incapacitating. This is a battle of wits specifically. It's not supposed to be who can kill who. It's who's smarter. And by no means does any vs thread or fight have to end in those terms. Phoenix vs King didn't end in death. Phoenix can easily call him out. And that's how Phoenix won. Vs debating isn't limited to that.
 
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